A Bunch Of Politicians Who Complain About Trump's Authoritarian Tendencies Just Gave Him 6 Years To Warrantlessly Spy On Americans

from the because-reasons dept

Thu, Jan 18th 2018 3:40pm — Mike Masnick

As was widely expected after Tuesday's close vote on cloture, the Senate officially voted to renew (in a somewhat expanded way) Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act by a vote of 65 to 34. That also means a few of those who voted against cloture switched over and voted for the program, including Senators Ted Cruz and Chuck Schumer. President Trump will almost certainly sign the bill shortly, despite confusing basically everyone last week by tweeting out complaints about the program, despite his White House vehemently supporting it.

Trump's confusion isn't all that surprising. What is surprising is just how many people who have been complaining and warning about Trump made this possible. In the House, vocal Trump critics including Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell were among those who voted for this bill which, again, gives the FBI the power to spy on Americans without warrants via the collection of content (not metadata) swept up by the NSA. While defenders of the program keep insisting the program cannot be used to "target" Americans, they leave out that a ridiculous amount of American content is swept up into this collection, which can then be sifted through without a warrant, including a huge amount of communications of Americans.

Over on the Senate side, things were even more ridiculous. Senator Jeff Flake voted for cloture, helping to end (the already non-existing) debate on such surveillance, and blocking any amendments. And then, the very next morning, went on the Senate floor to slam the President, compare him to Stalin, and warn that our democracy may not survive. Again, this was mere hours after Senator Flake voted to give more surveillance powers to the President he was about to compare to Stalin.

Or how about Dianne Feinstein? It may be no surprise that Feinstein voted to continue and expand surveillance -- she has a long history of doing exactly that. But just about an hour before voting for cloture, Feinstein herself introduced an amendment that would have required a warrant to search the corpus of data collected under 702. And then she voted to block that amendment from even being voted on. Let me repeat that, because it's just that insane: Feinstein introduced an amendment to the 702 renewal, that would have required a warrant to sniff through the data... and then voted against allowing that amendment to be heard and voted on. Within an hour or so. And, since cloture needed 60 votes and just squeezed through with those 60 votes... Feinstein could have changed the debate herself. But chose not to.

Or how about Senator Claire McCaskill. She was the final vote for cloture and took over an hour after the vote was called to actually reach the floor. She was the actual deciding vote, as, if she voted against it, the cloture vote would have had only 59 yaes, and the debate would have continued, and amendments proposed. Trump has been loudly denouncing McCaskill for months as she's facing a tough reelection campaign. And her response was to deny any further debate or amendments and to vote to give Trump more surveillance powers.

These are not the only ones. Many vocal critics of the President just handed him much greater power to warrantlessly spy on Americans -- something the President (in a confused way) complained about concerning what he believed (incorrectly) was illegal spying on his own campaign.

Zack Whittaker at ZDnet has also compiled a list of elected officials who had put out earlier statements promising to reform surveillance... only to then vote for this program. It includes both Swalwell and Feinstein mentioned above, but many others as well.

Over at Lawfare, a site that has long defended basically every aspect of the surveillance state, reliable surveillance defenders Jack Goldsmith and Susan Hennessey tried to defend the paradox of not trusting Trump, but giving him the ability to warrantlessly spy on Americans. The crux of it is basically... "we don't trust Trump, but there are good people in the intelligence and law enforcement communities and they'd never abuse these powers."

More broadly, one of the underappreciated developments in the post-Snowden-revelations era is the absence of credible allegations of political or venal use of 702 authorities. In essence, the public evidence confirms that the problems that used to bedevil secret electronic surveillance through the Hoover/Nixon era—namely, senior political figures deploying intelligence agencies and tools for inappropriate, abusive political purposes—have been resolved by a robust legal regime of oversight and reporting. When Sen. Elizabeth Warren points to the surveillance abuses directed at Martin Luther King Jr. to argue against 702, she actually highlights the opposite point: the massive transparency, both voluntary and involuntary, over the past few years about how Section 702 operates shows that it has not been abused for domestic political spying and implies that the 40 years of post-Hoover legal reforms are largely a success (though not without hiccups). The fact that President Trump has not focused his abusive energies on intelligence collection is a testament to the efficacy of the legal and cultural constraints on electronic surveillance.

Not surprisingly, Marcy Wheeler rips these claims to shreds in a response on her own blog, noting that beyond factual errors in the piece, it more or less ignores the FBI's role in all of this. Even if we grant the (incorrect) claim that the NSA doesn't abuse this data, that's not at all clear on the FBI side -- especially when the FBI refuses to provide any details at all:

You can’t pass a bill that effectively blesses FBI’s use of back door searches on Americans about whom it has no evidence of any wrongdoing, while admitting you don’t know how FBI conducts those back door searches, and make any claim to conduct adequate oversight. Rather, the bill permits FBI to continue practices it has stubbornly refused to brief Congress on, rather than demanding that FBI brief Congress first, so Congress can impose any restrictions that might be necessary to adequately protect Americans.

Furthermore, Wheeler notes that Hennessey and Goldsmith completely ignore how this gives Attorney General Jeff Sessions incredible unreviewable power to make use of this warrantless data for criminal prosecutions, hiding where he got the information from.

But it’s the unreviewable authority for Jeff Sessions bit that is the real problem.

We know, for example, that painting Black Lives Matter as a national security threat is key to the Trump-Sessions effort to criminalize race. We also know that Trump has accused his opponents of treason, all for making critical comments about Trump.

This bill gives Sessions unreviewable authority to decide that a BLM protest organized using or whistleblowing relying on Tor, discovered by collection done in the name of hunting Russian spies, can be referred for prosecution. The fact that the underlying data predicating any prosecution was obtained without a warrant under 702 would — in part because this bill doesn’t add teeth to FISA notice — ensure that courts would never learn the genesis of the prosecution. Even if a court somehow managed to do so, however, it could never deem the domestic surveillance unlawful because the bill gives Jeff Sessions the unreviewable authority to treat dissent as a national security threat.

This is such an obviously bad idea, and it is being supported by people who talk incessantly about the threat that Trump and Sessions present. Yet, rather than addressing the issue head on (which I doubt Hennessey could legally do in any case), they simply remain silent about what is the biggest complaint from privacy activists, that this gives a racist, vindictive Attorney General far more authority than he should have, and does so without fixing the inadequate protections for criminal defendants along the way.

And, now, it appears that (unless Fox News somehow intervenes again) the President will sign this bill. EFF has put out an open letter about how awful this is, and how it intends to fight this in court. But, this was a major missed opportunity, and what's most incredible and disappointing is how many people who complain about Trump's authoritarian tendencies were central to making it possible.

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Filed Under: adam schiff, backdoor searches, dianne feinstein, eric swalwell, fbi, fisa, jeff sessions, nancy pelosi, nsa, section 702, surveillance

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Jordan Chandler, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:02pm

Feinstein
84 years old, out of touch with reality, seems right.
Hope she dies soon.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:03pm

Two Sides of the Same Coin
Trump = Obama = Bush = Clinton = Bush....

son of a bitch pardoned the mega banks for fraud too... just like Obama, Bush....

We should just shut it all down and start over... this shit has been rooted!
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Jordan Chandler, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:04pm

Claim
Can America even make the claim that there's due process anymore?

What happened to the constitution?
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:12pm

Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
With the over-arching view you will never again be surprised by apparent contradictions: "What is surprising is just how many people who have been complaining and warning about Trump made this possible."

Nor is it "incredible". Ordinary operation of the Washington DC branch of The Globalists. DC is like most countries in active conspiracy with The Globalists and against The Public.

Don't be misled (or try to mislead) either because are many commercial fronts for SPYING: Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, Microsoft... All SPIES. There are NO major corporations left outside for an alternative.

It is only ONE concept because The Rich strive for ONE WORLD totally under Their control. Corporatization has been put in place patiently for over a hundred years, and with computerization near total surveillance is on verge of becoming reality -- better than in the novel "1984".
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:20pm

Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
You know, Masnick, if you're truly puzzled by the way DC operates, you should just close the site: it's too complex for you. The first 3 comments clearly state more than you ever will. And of course for same cause, no one should bother with this site except for fun.
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Ryunosuke (profile), 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:39pm

Re: Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
I would like to think that these Congressmen/women just gave Trump a mile of rope, so that he can make his own noose to hang himself with. That being said, It is still an incredibly stupid move.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:54pm

Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Both sides are bad you say? What a bold and original claim!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:57pm

Re: Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
And yet here you are...
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 4:59pm

Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
You forgot to say deep state. And you also forgot to remind everyone that THE FLAG HAS GOLD FRINGES ON IT!!!
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 18 Jan 2018 @ 5:01pm

What I think they said was...

"...they leave out that a ridiculous amount of American content is swept up into this collection, which can then be sifted through without a warrant,..."

Not just sifted through, interpreted, maybe out of contexts, maybe not. Some of this will come down to what they 'think' they said, in a court, and then, given the way things are going, it will be up to the defendant to prove they are not guilty, rather than enjoy the presumption of innocence.

How many ways is this backwards? Void the 4rth Amendment, void the presumption of innocence, give sanction to Brady material violations (they presented what they believed to be the truth rather than giving over exculpatory information) etc..

Can this pass a SCOTUS review? Will several Appellate Courts question it? I hope no to the former and yes to the latter, though it will probably be that the reverse (order of decision) is the case.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 18 Jan 2018 @ 5:17pm

Re: Feinstein
84 years old, out of touch with reality, seems right.

And running for re-election!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 5:21pm

Sheeple don't worry be happy
The 40s had Nazism
We have Trumpizm
Hide like little fucken whiny bitches
while your freedoms go down in flames
Keyboard strokes will repeal those folks .
don't worry be happy
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 5:46pm

Yes, keep the discussion focused on Russian Facebook memes.
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Stephen T. Stone (profile), 18 Jan 2018 @ 6:58pm

Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.

Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, Microsoft...

You forgot Disney, Verizon, Comcast, and the 1989 Denver Broncos.
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That One Guy (profile), 18 Jan 2018 @ 7:11pm

Spines and self-respect: Not to be found in DC apparently
And then, the very next morning, went on the Senate floor to slam the President, compare him to Stalin, and warn that our democracy may not survive. Again, this was mere hours after Senator Flake voted to give more surveillance powers to the President he was about to compare to Stalin.

Something which any even remotely intelligent political opponent will be able to use against him to completely undercut any such claims in the future.

"Sure he claimed he had a huge problem with Trump, but what did he do mere hours before? Gave him more power! It's obvious then that he was simply grandstanding, and nothing he said should be taken seriously."

Let me repeat that, because it's just that insane: Feinstein introduced an amendment to the 702 renewal, that would have required a warrant to sniff through the data... and then voted against allowing that amendment to be heard and voted on. Within an hour or so.

Likewise with Feinstien. She's been a cheerleader for domestic spying for ages, so the fact that she would support it here is no surprise, and by introducing an amendment that she then immediately voted to block, it's pretty trivial to see that it was nothing more than a pathetic attempt to have it both ways. To look like she was in favor of warrant requirements, yet 'reluctantly' vote against them. I would hope that such a blatantly obvious attempt will be pointed out by any critic and/or opponents.

Trump has been loudly denouncing McCaskill for months as she's facing a tough reelection campaign. And her response was to deny any further debate or amendments and to vote to give Trump more surveillance powers.

I dearly hope she has enough self awareness to realize that she just torpedoed her ability to criticism him on the subject in the future, and understand that she sold out to help someone who apparently holds her in contempt, dodging one possible way for political opponents to attack her merely to open up another.

They can make all the claims they want, when it came down to it the ones who actually oppose indiscriminate surveillance of the US public made their position clear, and those for whom selling out the public for cheap PR is seen as a good trade likewise made their positions crystal clear.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 18 Jan 2018 @ 7:24pm

Re: Spines and self-respect: Not to be found in DC apparently

"...Feinstien. She's been a cheerleader..."

Cheerleader, can she do a split? Would anyone want to see her do a split?

On the other hand, she certainly seems to be doing 'splits' all over the place. Is that what we call politics? Is that what politics should be?
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 8:53pm

Welcome to The McResistance where we'll shout to high heaven get outraged about Trump saying mean words like "shithole countries" but on actual policy we secretly agree with 99% of what he says.

Vote for us!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 9:03pm

"there are good people in the intelligence and law enforcement communities"

Funny, I heard roughly the same claims being made about the violent Nazis marching in Charlottesville.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 9:31pm

Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Oh - that will fix everything.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 10:31pm

Re: Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
John Eleay IS the head of the Illuminati by the way.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 10:31pm

Re:
U mad bro?
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jan 2018 @ 10:33pm

Re:
But wait I thought both sides were bad!
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 1:28am

Re:
Whatever you say Ivan...
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 1:29am

Re:
So what is the weather like in Saint Petersburg today?
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dickeyrat, 19 Jan 2018 @ 4:30am

Jefferson Beauregard Sessions
...our esteemed AG, who was proudly named after two top Confederate officers/collaborators/traitors, has his personal issues enabled by our gaggle of idiots in Congress, both GOP and "GOP Lite" (known to some as "Democrats"). Little Jefferson Beauregard suffered pangs of abuse on the playground, all because of his amazing resemblance to an inbred wharf-rat. Now as he nears age 80, he gets his revenge by wielding the large phallus of his Office" in favor of surveillance, against that heathen Devil Weed (favored of course by Brown People), and the Brown (and Black) people themselves, who dare to exist in our Aryan paradise! Jefferson Beauregard would love little better than to see the entire nation turned into Uber-Alabama, ruled either tacitly or overtly by the Klan (as long as they stop smoking pot), and where "men" are free to make love to their 13 year old sisters. That'll show those Playground Bullies who's boss! (I realize no one on Earth gives a shit about my opinions, but I do make myself feel a little better putting them on public display! THAT'S what counts for me!)
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Annonymouse, 19 Jan 2018 @ 4:31am

Re: Re: Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
They will guve him plenty of rope and as they watch him make a solid loop and tie it to a bellaying pin will they realize the other end is around their necks.
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John E Cressman, 19 Jan 2018 @ 4:52am

Losers
Everyone complains about warrant-less searches and surveillance yet despite it being used by one administration (Obama's) to spy on a political opponent (Trump at the time) using some made up dossier, Republicans and Democrats BOTH signed on for 6 more years.

More Washington double speak. Say one thing to the press and your voters, and then do the exact opposite when you vote.

Kick them all out!
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Wendy Cockcroft, 19 Jan 2018 @ 5:59am

Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
And yet there is a grain of truth there; the last four presidents either had dodgy policies or they didn't. They either created and expanded the surveillance state or they didn't. Are they equal to each other? No, but it's not a competition.

Trump was supposed to drain the swamp (he filled it) and demolish the Deep State (he whined about it but did nothing about it); he hasn't. The alphabet soup of competing security agencies either are or are not subject to rigorous oversight; I think we can agree they are not.

Instead of shouting "False equivalence!" let us embrace our ally and see what we can do to change the political landscape in the mid-terms. No one is obliged to agree with all of us all of the time.
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Wendy Cockcroft, 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:00am

Re: Claim
I understand it has been trodden underfoot and used as toilet paper because terrorism.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:05am

This is why we can't have nice things
1st the terrorist bomb us
2nd we spy and fight with each other

Thank you Patriot Act
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:19am

Re: Re: Feinstein
When she wins(somehow California continues to elect this ghoul) she will be 90 years old when her term ends damn thats old
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Dealy, 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:34am

Re: Feinstein
65.3% of the California electorate did NOT vote for Senator Feinstein in year 2012 state election.

Might there be a slight problem in the U.S. plurality voting system that installs authoritarians like Feinstein into high office ?
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:37am

Re: Re: Feinstein
"Might there be a slight problem in the U.S. plurality voting system that installs authoritarians like Feinstein into high office ?"

The one that many of these fucks ignorantly and sanctimoniously believe is a democracy.

You just can't help stupid, it has to help itself first!
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Dealy, 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:44am

Re: Same Coin
Hmmm, that same coin (government) somehow keeps delivering people we don't like as powerful rulers over us.
Might there be some slight defect in that overall government system that we overlooked ?
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Wendy Cockcroft, 19 Jan 2018 @ 7:12am

Re: Re: Same Coin
@ Dealy, there are two wrong statements in your post:

1) Government does not deliver rulers of any kind over us, we vote them in and we can vote them out.

2) There's no defect in the overall government system, people are not availing themselves of the opportunity to take part in the democratic process, which might be down to decades of a) not teaching civics properly (if at all) and b) presenting the government as the boogeyman, not the servant of the public to do its bidding.

If you want to see 2) in action take a look through the history of SOPA. Bear in mind that liberty requires eternal vigilance and many of us are sleeping on the job.
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Wendy Cockcroft, 19 Jan 2018 @ 7:14am

Re: Re: Re: Learn this ONE concept: THE Establishment.
Is it bad that I read that as Ron Ely and imagined him swinging through the jungle wearing leather underpants?
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Wendy Cockcroft, 19 Jan 2018 @ 7:17am

Re: Losers
U mad, bro? We were complaining against Obama right here on TD when he was in office doing exactly that. And GitMo, and TPP...

Seriously, don't get me started on that Neocon in Progressive clothing.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 8:47am

Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
@WendyC:

OK, well enough-- after properly learning civics & availing yourself of the opportunity to take part in the democratic process -- who did you vote for in the 2016 U.S. Presidential election? And are you fully satisfied with that election process from your personal viewpoint?
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Thad, 19 Jan 2018 @ 10:05am

Re: Feinstein
It's not about age. The youngest member of the Senate is Tom Cotton, and he voted the same way Feinstein did. Some older senators -- Sanders and Warren, for example -- voted Nay. The effort to amend FISA with additional privacy protections was led by one older Democratic senator (Wyden) and one younger Republican one (Paul).

I'm not big on the ageism thing, and "hope she dies soon" is a pretty terrible thing to say about somebody. Maybe instead of wishing for Feinstein's death, you could give some support to Kevin de Leon, who's running against her in this year's primary.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 10:34am

Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Release the FISA Memo... fucking cockroaches
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 10:41am

Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Probably not for you because you are likely reliant on this corrupt system... but I don't really give a fuck about you... I have a longer term in mind, that does not include me either.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 11:31am

Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
If you don't care then why do you keep commenting?
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 11:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
I'll take those questions Dealy.

1. It wasn't Trump.

2. I am fully satisfied with our election process from my personal viewpoint.

Unlike some, I can accept reality as it is instead of constantly screaming 'but that's not fair!' like a 6 year old in a school yard.
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GEMont, 19 Jan 2018 @ 12:07pm

Re: Claim
Which Constitution?

There's the one they teach in school, sometimes - old thing, written long ago. Its not used much except when its impossible not to, or when the public is paying attention.

Then there's the one that was rewritten by corporate lawyers after the 9/11 false flag operation, to allow, among other things, the invocation of the war measures act against American civilians - "the adversary" - in secret.

War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on File-Sharing, all a part of the War on the Adversary - civilians.

There is no way that anyone could have stopped this FISA fiasco, because it was never really up for a vote. That's just smoke and mirrors now, as with elections.

The Spy on The Adversary program is a major part of the corporate secret war effort, and absolutely necessary for blackmail of the opposition - read Democrats - and to prevent public revolt by eavesdropping on all their communications, which allows them to root out any fledgling conspirators before they can get organized.

You all just witnessed a bunch of Democrats suddenly turn 180 degrees from their public stance. This is the power of blackmail.

It is truly fascinating to watch millions of adults pretend there is nothing bad going on, just to protect their income.

Astounding really. But this one is definitely gonna bite you in the ass if you don't wake up and smell the coffee.

Hell, its probably already too late.

===
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 12:18pm

Re: Re: Claim
Nice to see someone else has given up on our country. Now please get out of the way so we can actually make some progress here.

There is no evidence to support anything that you assert and is in fact a large amount of evidence proving you wrong.
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Will B., 19 Jan 2018 @ 12:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
If you really are fully satisfied with our voting system in this country, I can only assume you haven't looked into its issues and potential solutions. May I suggest searching Youtube for "CGP Gray Voting" and watch his whole series?
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
I don't really comment that much but say a lot more than you do...

great comment by the way you dick riding motherfucker...

The only thing I said I did not care about is the comment above that was written by someone reliant on a corrupt system.
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GEMont, 19 Jan 2018 @ 1:04pm

Re: Re: Re: Claim
"There is no evidence to support anything that you assert and is in fact a large amount of evidence proving you wrong."

Now that is impressive!

A blanket denial, followed by a blanket claim, both without even the smallest bit of supportive data.

Just can't deal with scary thoughts eh.

Well, at least you're in good company.

This is generally how most Americans deal with the notion that the bad-guys are winning.

Its called make-believe.

===
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 1:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Claim
I'm in good company then since you provided absolutely zero data to support your claims.

Pardon me if I rely more on facts than thinking there is a massive conspiracy so large that it encompasses our entire government, yet not one bit of evidence has leaked to prove it. Either they are so good at keeping secrets that it defies all statistical odds and probability, or there is no conspiracy.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 1:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Tsk, temper temper.

Given that most people on here disagree with you and agree with that comment you don't care about, then you really don't care about the majority of people on here, including the TD authors since I'm quite sure they are not in favor of burning our system of government to the ground and starting over.

As for who says more, well, your comment does say something, just not what you think.
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Thad, 19 Jan 2018 @ 2:44pm

Re: Re: Claim

the 9/11 false flag operation

Aaaaand we're done here.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 3:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
After looking into this I assume you are advocating for something akin to the 'alternative vote' method? The problem I see with this method is that you, in effect, lose some control over who you vote for. Even if you put down only one candidate, if they don't win, your vote will be shifted to someone else.

That may be fine for some people but I think this really won't solve the problem. You will instead get people saying their votes were shifted to someone they didn't want. And it still trends towards a two party system.

I think our voting system is fine as is. The problem is not the system, it's the people. People have become so polarized and afraid that 'a vote for a third party is a vote who you don't want' that they don't truly vote their conscience, they vote for who they think has the best chance of winning who isn't the candidate they really don't want to win.

I don't think the system needs to be changed, people do. And I think there are things we can do to discourage a 'two party' system without changing the voting system itself.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jan 2018 @ 5:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
I fail to understand the lack of recognizing sarcasm.
Do you take everything literally?
Do you lack empathy?
Everyone else is wrong and you are right - always.

I think this is actually some sort of mental illness.
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The Wanderer (profile), 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:50pm

Re: Re: Re: Feinstein
Eugene Volokh would like a word with you.
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The Wanderer (profile), 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Are you sure he's done nothing about the Deep State?

He's certainly been doing a reasonably decent job of cleaning out career public servants from various government departments, and it's my understanding that that is exactly who the Deep State is supposed to be: the people who remain in place across changes of administration, and (according to the reasoning) are therefore in position to block whatever reforms the new administration wants to put in from having meaningful effect.

I suspect that the "deep state" is also what was being referred to by mentions of the "swamp", and that cleaning it out is exactly what he was promising to do when he said he'd "drain the swamp".
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Jim Anderson, 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:55pm

What do you expect?
I have a hard time understanding how anyone is surprised about the conduct of either Feinstein or McCaskill. I just signed at net neutrality petition by McCaskill and now wonder if it actually means just the opposite of what I thought it meant. This is what happens when you allow an encourage authoritarians and conserva Dems leadership positions in the Democratic Party.
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The Wanderer (profile), 19 Jan 2018 @ 6:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
I'm advocating for ranked-preference voting, in which your vote consists of a list of the candidates in order from the one you prefer most to the one you prefer least.

No votes get shifted, that way.

(And, no, we can't meaningfully prevent a two-party system without changing the voting system. Over the long term, the structural incentives of the single-choice first-past-the-post voting system cause it to inevitably devolve towards a two-party model.)
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GEMont, 20 Jan 2018 @ 10:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Claim
Query.

Was the Constitution rewritten after 9/11, in your world?

===
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hyphenitis (profile), 20 Jan 2018 @ 1:12pm

"Our happy Republic" is toast
Don't look now but CIA is the new government. Surprise! The cockroaches behind the curtain are pulling the strings.

References in comments I'm seeing these days as to "How's the weather in St. Petersburg" are sounding pretty silly. Hillary didn't lose because of Russia. U.S. election corruption is of the home-grown variety & probably favored Hillary. What little "Russian meddling" there may have been was laughably ineffectual. That's why the lamestream media doesn't harp on it so much any more.

doublespeak is one word
no hyphen in nonexisting (nonexistent, nonexistence)
no hyphen in midterm, midterms
schoolyard is one word
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nasch (profile), 21 Jan 2018 @ 12:50pm

Re: Spines and self-respect: Not to be found in DC apparently
Flake is not running for reelection, so he needn't care. And as for the others, sadly I fear you're giving the electorate too much credit. Maybe if there's a strong primary challenger these people could be made to pay for these moves, but otherwise they'll vote for the one with the right letter after his or her name.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2018 @ 1:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
" I am fully satisfied with our election process from my personal viewpoint.

So disenfranchisement is ok with you?
Gerrymandering is definitely the way to go?
Cult Of Personality is wayyy cool?
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Wendy Cockcroft, 22 Jan 2018 @ 2:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
Yeah... about that... he's cleared out career public servants who know how stuff works as part of Bannon's "Deconstruction of the state" agenda.

Result: people who don't know what they're doing are in charge.

Meanwhile, the apparatus of surveillance remains in place and his cabinet is full of the Wall Street types he pledged to get rid of.
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Wendy Cockcroft, 22 Jan 2018 @ 2:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
@ Dealy

I wasn't able to vote in American elections because I'm Irish and live in the UK.

Apparently there's a massive problem with gerrymandering, vote suppression, etc., because the people don't rise up and campaign against it. Politicians tend to do what we want if there's enough of an outcry.
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Wendy Cockcroft, 22 Jan 2018 @ 2:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Same Coin
Agreed. Proportional representation would break gerrymandering, which is probably your biggest problem.

It's a massive problem here, too.
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The Wanderer (profile), 22 Jan 2018 @ 4:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
But that's my point: are you sure he pledged to get rid of the Wall Street types? I don't remember him doing it in unambiguous terms; he may have, but at the very least I don't remember it being one of his major campaign talking points. (The closest I remember him coming is words to the effect of "I've abused the system so much for so long that I know better than anyone else how to fix all the problems that I've abused", which he has certainly abandoned.)

I don't think talking about "draining the swamp" was talking about getting rid of big-business Wall-Street types at all.

I think it was talking about getting rid of the "deep state" -the entrenched "muck" in which policy-change efforts sink - and that he defines that in the way I described.

And although I agree that cleaning out the people who know how things work and keep things running is a (potentially catastrophically) bad idea, he does seem to have been effective at doing that.
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Wendy Cockcroft, 22 Jan 2018 @ 5:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
I agree he's been effective at that but the effect thereof was to pluck some low-hanging fruit. The people who need dealing with are very much in place.
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The Wanderer (profile), 23 Jan 2018 @ 5:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Sides of the Same Coin
I think it's possible that he (and/or the portions of his base who subscribe to the "deep state" idea) may have a differing idea of which people are the ones who need dealing with.

But if you have sources to indicate that most (and/or the most important) of the non-elected public servants who persist across administrations and provide institutional knowledge, et cetera, are still there, I'd be interested to learn of them; it would be positive news, from my perspective.
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