Cops Follow Up Officer-Involved Shooting By Heading To Funeral Home To Apply Dead Man's Fingers To His Locked Phone

from the you-can't-take-your-rights-with-you dept

Thu, Apr 26th 2018 9:42am — Tim Cushing

When your fingerprint is your device's password, there's little you can do to prevent law enforcement from accessing its contents. In most cases, judges have sided with the government, opining that fingerprints are non-testimonial even if it results in the production of criminal evidence.

The Fifth Amendment offers little protection for those using fingerprints for device security. And the Fourth Amendment offers zero protection against law enforcement using your fingerprint to access locked devices after you've departed the corporeal plain.

"I just felt so disrespected and violated," said Victoria Armstrong, whose fiance, Linus F. Phillip, was shot and killed by a Largo police officer last month.

Armstrong, 28, happened to be at Sylvan Abbey Funeral Home in Clearwater the day two detectives showed up with Phillip’s phone, she said. They were taken to Phillip’s corpse. Then, they tried to unlock the phone by holding the body’s hands up to the phone’s fingerprint sensor.

Armstrong was killed by police officers following a quasi-traffic stop. He jumped back in his car and attempted to drive away when officers began searching him. The officers involved have since been cleared by the state attorney's investigation. For whatever reason, detectives decided they needed access to the dead man's device. Here's the excuse given for macabre undertaking.

Lt. Randall Chaney said it was an unsuccessful attempt to access and preserve data on the phone to aid in the investigation into Phillip’s death and a separate inquiry into drugs that involved Phillip, 30.

It's completely unclear as to how information on the dead man's phone would have aided an investigation into his being shot and killed by officers. The attachment of a vague "drug inquiry" doesn't do much to salvage the search and seizure.

But the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to dead people or their belongings. And the only reason the officers have to deal with this backlash is because their timing worked out badly. They retrieved the phone but the body had already been released to the funeral home. The seizure/search they would have performed at the morgue unfortunately now had to take place in public.

Since the Fourth Amendment isn't implicated, no warrant was needed, meaning no judge looked over an affidavit and decided unlocking a dead man's phone would somehow aid in an investigation into his death at the hands of the same law enforcement agency now attempting to crack open his phone.

This leads to another problematic aspect of the search: dead men can't be criminally charged. So what's the point in digging for more dirt on the dead man? Even if there's a "drug inquiry" underway, it seems the more honorable approach would be to at least ask the family's permission, if not avoid it entirely by focusing on other, less-dead suspects.

But honorable is the enemy of efficiency. And whatever the law doesn't explicitly forbid will be deployed by law enforcement, no matter how much it negatively affects its relationship with the community it serves.

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Filed Under: encryption, fingerprints, funeral, linus phillip, passwords, victoria armstrong

71 Comments

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limbodog (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 9:47am

It's been said many times before, but it bears repeating
Fingerprints are usernames, not passwords. It's not a good idea to confuse the two.
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I.T. Guy, 26 Apr 2018 @ 9:47am

There's a reason they are called pigs. This is a prime example.
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Ninja (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 9:50am

And when you think you've seen the lowest cops can go with the tased guy in a moving atv they manage to shock you a bit more. Then they ask "WHY U NO RESPECT US!" as if the reason isn't splattered all over the news.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 9:50am

this sounds very much like the utah episode where the bastard cop tried to browbeat a nurse into allowing a blood sample from an unconscious innocent victim of a cop-caused accident.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 9:52am

I have already called my lawyer and had her add "burn off fingerprints with acid immediately upon death" to my will.
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Ninja (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 9:53am

Re: It's been said many times before, but it bears repeating
It's a trade off. Security for usability. If I ever go to the US I'll probably take a burner phone with a dummy account logged in but one may generally expect that inserting a password and using then letting the fingerprints do the rest in daily activities to be safe enough. I try to balance it. If I need further security I simply turn my phone off. Otherwise using fingerprints (after validating them with the passwords) seem good enough.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 9:58am

Re: Re: It's been said many times before, but it bears repeating
I am from the US, and I travel IN the US with a burner phone and burner laptop.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:02am

We deserve it!
"And whatever the law doesn't explicitly forbid will be deployed by law enforcement, no matter how much it negatively affects its relationship with the community it serves."

As long as we keep refusing that the Constitution only grants government powers, and powers not listed are denied then this is the result.

Every nation gets the government is "Deserves"!

This time, the Victims ARE to blame!
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Algorev, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:15am

Well…
You know what they say… Dead men tell no tales!
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PlagueSD (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:16am

This leads to another problematic aspect of the search: dead men can't be criminally charged.

But dead men can assist with obtaining criminal charges for those still alive...
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:16am

corpse as a public resource
The ongoing police "investigation" obviously serves one purpose - to dig up dirt on the victim that can be used to make him less sympathetic in the eyes of a judge, jury, and a public that's been increasingly intolerant of police brutality and unjustified killings.

This brings up the question of "what rights does a dead person have?" and the answer is basically "none" if the authorities are the ones handling (or abusing) a corpse.

It's a common practice for a police shooting victim to be given a state-mandated autopsy, not for the normal reason of determining the cause of death (as if anyone might actually wonder why someone shot full of bullets might end up dead) but as a valuable if not irreplaceable research tool for helping police to develop more lethal weapons and tactics, since live-animal testing of police weapons is frowned upon by society at this time.
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btr1701 (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:31am

Estate
> But the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to dead people or
> their belongings.

Seems to me that even though the guy is dead, his property is still part of his estate, which survives as a legal entity, and whomever is the beneficiary of that property either via will or intestate succession would now have standing to assert the 4th Amendment's warrant requirement.
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Capt ICE Enforcer, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:34am

Need help
How do I get my very unique fingerprints copyrighted so that the police will need to seek my permission for 70 years after they kill me..
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btr1701 (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:35am

Re: We deserve it!
> As long as we keep refusing that the Constitution only
> grants government powers, and powers not listed are
> denied then this is the result.

Actually, the Constitution explicitly states in the 10th Amendment that all powers not explicitly granted in Article I, Section 8 are reserved to the state and local governments. They are not denied to the government altogether as you claim.

So basically, since the Constitution is silent on the power of the police to use a dead guy's fingerprints, that power belongs to the local cops. And guess who was using the fingerprints here? Yep, local cops.

This is all perfectly in line with the Constitution.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:37am

Re:
This has intrigued me for some time now, the near constant carping by leos about not getting respect from the public while doing their best to disrespect the public on a daily basis. Perhaps it is due to a misunderstanding of what the word "respect" means. I think leos, and many others, conflate the word respect with the words adulation and reverence. When they demand respect, what they really want is adulation but they will not admit it.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:39am

Re:
Yeah - that person was still alive so they still had some rights.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:42am

Re: Re: We deserve it!
Awww man! Now look what you've done - you totally destroyed that bullshit argument.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:43am

Re: Need help
Filthy pirates!
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:03am

Re: Estate
Exactly. His phone belongs to his heir.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:04am

CFAA violation
The phone was the legal property of the victum and then his heir. The police attempting to unlock it would be guilty of VFAA violations in the very least.
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michael, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:04am

Re: Estate
This was my thought exactly. The original owner of the phone is dead, but -- barring a total lack of heirs -- the phone still has an owner. And that owner has 4th-Amendment protections.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:09am

Re:
Or their property provide justification for the shooting after the event.
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Improbus (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:11am

Re: It's been said many times before, but it bears repeating
Yep, the police and/or a judge can force you to open your phone if you use bio-metrics. If you use an actual password ... not so much. Encrypt. All. The. Things.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:12am

What I really want to know, is how can someone running away from, or driving away from, the police constitute an immediate danger to their lives?
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:16am

Re: Estate
More importantly, the body is now property of the next of kin who has 4th Amendment protections. The police have illegally seized its hand.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:19am

Re:
They are a danger to the community as they are driving recklessly.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:21am

Re: Re: Estate
Not just the phone. The body also belongs to the estate.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:22am

Re: Need help
That only applies if they want to copy and distribute your fingerprints. They're only interested in a momentary use of them which most likely would be judged fair use.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:24am

Re:
They were afraid that losing a suspect might cause them to be reviewed poorly during annual reviews thus resulting in a smaller wage increase. Without more money to fund their drug habits they might have to turn to prostitution to afford their habit. We all know the sex trade is dangerous and they had reason to fear for their safety.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:24am

I wonder if I can get a checkbox on my ID for "donate fingertips" just below "organ donor".
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:44am

Waxing Poetic
If you are meaning levels of reality, consciousness, spirituality, or what-have-you, the word is, "plane." A corporeal plain would either be a prairie made out of people, or perhaps a metaphorical prairie on one's body like some ancient geographer's idea of smut.

"Her fingers moved north from his gentleman's garden on to the smooth, corporeal plain of his abdomen."
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 11:46am

Re: Re:
Don't forget that the reason for the use of deadly force is immediate danger, not a possible danger. Also, shooting the driver of a moving vehicle increases the danger to the community as it almost always results in a crash of the vehicle.
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ECA (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 12:19pm

pHONE??
HOW long did it take to find a phone??
Where was the phone??

I dont think it was On the person..
I dont think it was in the car..

"The footage, from cameras at the Wawa gas station where the shooting occurred, show a man approaching the driver’s side of a black sedan parked at a pump. The car soon accelerates in reverse with its driver’s side door open and turns sharply.

A man can be seen getting up from the ground and running with another man toward the car as it slams backward into a pole, then inches forward into a vehicle parked at another pump. Police said Phillip tried to drive away with Steiner halfway in the car, which led the officer to fire his gun."
---------
"Steiner smelled marijuana coming from Phillip and the car. He asked Phillip why it smelled that way. Phillip said that it didn’t and that the officer could search the car. Steiner said he was going to search Phillip first, and Phillip grabbed two bulges in his gym shorts pockets."
---------
"Phillip then jumped back into the vehicle. Steiner, caught between the gas pump and the open driver’s side door, hopped halfway into the car with him. Phillip put it in reverse as Steiner yelled for him to stop.

Steiner pulled his gun, "thinking that that would get Phillip’s attention to stop the vehicle," the letter says. The Altima accelerated in reverse. Officer Prentice Ables, who was also at the scene and had moved out of the way, spotted Steiner hanging out of the car, about to get pulled underneath. Steiner fired his gun four times. Two bullets entered the left side of Phillip’s back, one his left arm, and the fourth grazed his left leg. Steiner fell out as the car rounded two gas pumps backward."
------
"Police later found about 0.2 ounces each of marijuana and crack cocaine, about 0.4 ounces of powdered cocaine, an unspecified amount of hydromorphone pills and $1,632 in cash in Phillip’s pockets. That differed from the initial account from police, who said the drugs and cash were found inside the Altima. "
-------

Anyone wear Gym shorts and TRY to carry $1600?
How many initial cops there?? 4-6?? There are 3-4 names here.
So..A cop jumps into the Drivers side..A Cop Rolls out of the drivers side..After it reverses..
The driver gets the REAR smashed up, and then Crashes into another car..
AND the cops shoot him??

Cops are only shown how to Shoot PEOPLE?? not to disable the car?? and shoot tires??

Ok, Another officer saw another officer TRY to jump into the car, and Started shooting?? 4 shots?? 2 in the back, 2 on the driver left side.. OVER the head of the Other officer??
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re: We deserve it!
"Actually, the Constitution explicitly states in the 10th Amendment that all powers not explicitly granted in Article I, Section 8 are reserved to the state and local governments. They are not denied to the government altogether as you claim."

The 14th Amendment...
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

You need to read it. There is something peculiar about how the Constitution is written. It expects people to have a few basic understandings about things. Unfortunately you, along with many others severely lack that understanding.

Originally the Constitution did not apply between the states and the citizens, so historically, you are right that the states could reserved things for themselves, take your guns, keep slaves, and murder you with impunity. Not only that, your usage of Article 1, Section 8 to justify police doing whatever they want so long as nothing proscribes it is a farce. They still have to make laws that grant power because they still know that a power must be created and why you still see them calling press conferences asking congress to give law enforcement moar powa!

After the 14th, states lost the right to "reserve powers to the state" for certain things. Additionally, enumerating powers for legal purposes comes with the implicit detail that a power not listed is a power denied, otherwise there is no reason to list power, there would only be a reason to list the things they can't do. But they do both? Why is that?

Not only are you guys ignorant, you lack a basic functional understand of what gets implied when you are conversing with others.

For example... if I ask you can I go into your house, and you say yes... did you just give me permission to steal property from it... after all you didn't say I could not.

Power not explicitly granted is power denied that is the understanding or you would not have to enumerate powers to begin with! The idea that the government can do it because there is no law against it is a sign of very limited intelligence and bullshit logic!

We have a strong central government because the states have been cowed! If they want to be free of that, they need to secede.

And we don't even need to get into the other problems that he 14th cause that no one is even concerned about.

Lets just say "Political Expediency" is the death of the Constitution and why not a single word in that document is considered important any more. Every branch of government has already 100% ignored the Constitution and breached 100% of their powers and responsibilities.

it is no wonder America is a Police state, the logic you guys display are practically asking for it to be!
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Gorshkov (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 12:27pm

Re: Re:

I think leos, and many others, conflate the word respect with the words adulation and reverence. When they demand respect, what they really want is adulation but they will not admit it.

It's worse than that. Cops spend too much time around criminals ..... and amongst the street/criminal element, "respect" means "submission"
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 12:48pm

> This leads to another problematic aspect of the search: dead men can't be criminally charged. So what's the point in digging for more dirt on the dead man?

They were most likely hoping they would find something they could use to demonize him in a press release, and pat themselves on the back for getting another "evil druggie" off the streets (and the earth).
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 12:56pm

Re: Need help
You'd have to design the fingerprints yourself - you don't get copyright on natural phenomena.

And even then, it won't help. How much copyrighted material is on your phone that they want to copy? Do they care?
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 1:50pm

Re:
If I were the next of kin, I would sue the fuck out of that police department for violation of rights and desecration of a corpse. I would then charge them with CFAA violations for attempting to steal my inherited cell phone without cause.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 1:51pm

That's not actually correct
Upon the guy's death, everything became the property of the trust, or his wife. Including the cadaver. The cops skipping on the warrant is still violating the constitution.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 1:57pm

Re: It's been said many times before, but it bears repeating
semantic nonsense
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:00pm

Re:
My general experience with a lot of people boils down to the following:

1. Those who demand respect generally don't deserve it.
2. Those who deserve respect generally get it automatically.

And the unfortunate thing is, those people who fall into category #1 above will never ever understand category #2.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:00pm

Re: Re: Re:
Well then they should use that word in their complains about how difficult their jobs are and how the perps do not submit to their authoritah.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:06pm

Not very classy.
The appropriate thing to do is have a nice tech come in to fingerprint the fallen (protocols for which I'm sure we've had since the 1920s) and then another tech constructs fingers by which to activate the phone back at the precinct lab.

It seems police are not just content to be able to murder with impunity, but to entirely disregard decency. They no longer have regard for the illusion that they serve the public.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:13pm

Re: Re: Re: We deserve it!
So your claim is that the fourteenth amendment contradicts the tenth amendment? Perhaps you could elucidate upon this intriguing reading of same.

First you say op is wrong and then later say he is right, you so funny.

"After the 14th, states lost the right to "reserve powers to the state" for certain things."

What might these things be?

Are you one of those who want to get rid of amendments 13 and up?

Yes, you get the police state you deserve. Because you guys are the cause of all police states ... but not the AC who told you - because the AC who told you that does not want a police state and has done nothing to encourage it like you all have.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:13pm

The "bad guy" implication is in the bullet.
If a police officer murders you, you were obviously guilty of something terrible. It's the poison on the bullet.

See also: law enforcement crypto backdoors which can only be used by good guys on bad-guy devices.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:16pm

Re: Re: Need help
Unless they were working on a frame up
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:16pm

Re: Re: Need help
"you don't get copyright on natural phenomena."

unless you pay for the privledge
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:17pm

Re: Re:
So are a lot of politicians but we do not just go around shooting them.
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That One Guy (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:33pm

Re: Re:
Respect takes work, and requires that one give respect if you want to be given it back.

Fear on the other hand is easy, and can be attained simply by a show of force and/or making it clear that you're willing to make use of it.

Short-term both of these can be used to get people to do what you want, and the latter is far more enjoyable for those who get their kicks from throwing their weight around and abusing their authority. Long-term is another matter entirely, but if the cops were thinking long-term they wouldn't be going out of their way to poison the relationship they have with the public in the first place.
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That One Guy (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:38pm

I agree for the most part, though I take #1 a step farther and say that those who demand respect, by that very act, do not deserve to have it.

If someone is demanding respect then it's crystal clear to me at least that they do not deserve it. Respect is something you earn, it's not something you are owed.

'An honest person does not feel the need to tell you how honest they are. A liar on the other hand...'
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 2:49pm

Re: Re: It's been said many times before, but it bears repeating
No, instead the Judge will just hold you in jail forever or until you unlock the phone with your password. It's been done to a number of people.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 3:01pm

Re: Re: Re: We deserve it!
Oh look it’s Mister Holier Than Thou, here to grace us with his presence. And to run away as soon as anyone calls him out on his obvious bullshit.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 3:07pm

A relevant moment in history...
In German-occupied France, it was not only considered acceptable, but one's patriotic duty to spit in or otherwise befoul dishware and food to be served to German enlisted and officers.

Already to many of us, we feel like the police are less a peacekeeping force of the people, but an occupying paramilitary force of somebody else's provisional government.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 3:26pm

Re: Not very classy.
The other nonclassy option is that the police could have cut off the dead guy's fingers (or hands) and stored them in the evidence room (or even the refrigerator in the breakroom) until such time as they need to use them to unlock the cellphone.
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Coyne Tibbets (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 3:40pm

Looking for a cause

It's completely unclear as to how information on the dead man's phone would have aided an investigation into his being shot and killed by officers.

The police are merely looking for a cause. People don't just get up one day and decide to be killed by a cop. There must be a reason why this event happened.

Maybe the deceased was a drug dealer. Maybe he was a thug, who had committed previous violent crimes. Maybe he had previous arrests.

Failing that, maybe he had a nasty temper, maybe he beat his wife/S.O. Maybe he wrote a manifesto espousing the overturn of world order. Maybe he associated with people who did, if he didn't himself.

Failing that, maybe he was suicidal (suicide by cop). Maybe he was dying of a terminal disease, maybe he recently lost a loved one. Maybe he lost his job; maybe his favorite political candidate lost an election.

There just has to be a reason for his causing his shooting that the public, the media, can accept. Anything other than that unacceptable answer, excessive force.

Maybe there's child porn on his phone, perhaps proof of drug dealing, pimping, associating with thugs, a picture of his manifesto, his medical history.

Of course they had to search his phone. Demonization requires it.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 3:45pm

Re: Re: Estate
The police don't give a crap!
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 3:49pm

Re: Re: Not very classy.
After a few days the phone will want the password nd the finger would no longer work. All part of the security. You also can't remove the password by using the finger, you have to enter the password. Again part of the security. Get the Info you can while you have access as it won't last.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 7:33pm

I can see now why people are opting for cremation when they die, so stuff like this cannot happen.

When I die, I will be cremated right away.

One you have been cremated, the fuzz cannot do that.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 26 Apr 2018 @ 8:52pm

Once you've been cremated...
Yeah, once you've been cremated the fuzz can't be rude at your funeral, and exhuming your body won't do any good.

But they have your fingerprints or can get them they might still have time to unlock your phone.

It's really a good idea not to rely on biometrics to unlock your phone, at least on unless it's combined with another factor (say being within 100 meters of home).

Besides which, it's not a terrible thing to donate your body parts to science and or transplants if eligible. That could make for more peculiar investigatory impositions.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Apr 2018 @ 10:58pm

Re: Re: Re: We deserve it!
Still chugging those paint chips, are we?
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PaulT (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 1:04am

Re: Re:
More truthfully - they only had their rights because the nurse refused to give the cop what he was demanding. It was the medical staff, not the law enforcement, who retained their rights.
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wshuff (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 4:32am

Re: Re:
Or dirt to help the defense smear the victim when the civil case is filed.
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Anonymous Coward, 27 Apr 2018 @ 6:15am

When you die, do you really give a fuck what the fuzz do?

And why would the cops want to look at his phone? Think maybe they were looking for information that would help them track down other criminals?

Some of you here are kind of twisted. I don't think all cops are good but some of you think that all cops are bad. You really are kind of fucked up. Most cops do what we want them to do.
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Anonymous Coward, 27 Apr 2018 @ 9:03am

Yet another reason to invest into quality sensors that check the finger is attached to a living human with a pulse.
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PaulT (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 9:03am

Re:
"When you die, do you really give a fuck what the fuzz do?"

Yes. Why, do you think you should suddenly lose everything the moment you cease to live.

"Think maybe they were looking for information that would help them track down other criminals?"

There are procedures and rules surrounding the gathering of evidence for very good reasons. If they had a good enough reason, they should have followed them.

"Some of you here are kind of twisted."

Yes. Many of them post anonymously and kowtow to everything authority figures demand, whether or not it violates their own rights.

"Most cops do what we want them to do."

But, far from all of them, which is why the above rules are in place.
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btr1701 (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 10:59am

Re: Re: Re: We deserve it!
> After the 14th, states lost the right to "reserve powers to the state" for certain
> things.

Nonsense. No court has ever held that the 14th Amendment repealed the 10th Amendment, or that the 10th Amendment no longer has any legal force or effect.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 11:45am

"Most cops do what we want them to do."
as per Most cops are still good

[Citation needed.]

Enough law enforcement wrongdoing has surfaced to raise suspicion as to the intent of entire departments and agencies, and there is concern that precincts are environments in which violent, deceptive but loyal officers thrive where honest rule-following officers do not.
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limbodog (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re: It's been said many times before, but it bears repeating
"Semantic nonsense" is how our system of laws works. It's also a great name for a post-industrial noise band.
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Dirkmaster (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 1:23pm

Re: Re:
When I was young (granted, it was when dinosaurs ruled the earth) we were taught that "Respect is earned, not given." LEOs seem to not believe this.
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Mat (profile), 27 Apr 2018 @ 9:09pm

Re: Re: Re:
Once again, I feel a strange need for the 'sad but true' button we still don't have.
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The Wanderer (profile), 28 Apr 2018 @ 4:24am

Re: Re: Re:
The way I usually put that is:

"Everyone deserves courtesy by default, until they show by their actions that they don't deserve it.

"No one deserves respect by default, until they show by their actions that they do deserve it."
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