Police Officers At A Tactical Disadvantage Bravely Tase 87-Year-Old Woman Into Submission
from the when-u-gain-the-high-ground-just-by-showing-up dept
No police department should ever have to explain why they tased an 87-year-old woman. It's not that the public doesn't deserve an explanation. It's that there is seldom any reason to deploy force against 5'2" 87-year-old. But that's what Chatsworth Police Chief Josh Etheridge had to do after one of his officers tased the woman during a "confrontation" behind the local Boys and Girls Club.
The police chief of a small Georgia town is defending an officer who deployed a stun gun on a "smiling" 87-year-old woman, saying she refused to comply with numerous commands to put down a kitchen knife she was using to cut dandelions.
Perhaps we civilians just don't appreciate the danger presented by a smiling 87-year-old woman -- in this case, Martha al-Bishara, who lived across the street from the Boys and Girls Club. I mean, she was carrying a kitchen knife and "refused" to put it down. If we could just see the recordings…
He said there is police body-camera footage of the incident, but he has yet to release it because charges against al-Bishara are pending.
Oh.
Because we civilians probably can't imagine a situation where we might have to use a stun gun against an octogenarian, here's some helpful statements by the PD to help us visualize how a 5'2" 87-year-old got the drop on responding officers.
"We were able to contain her to the back area. She was in an elevated position above both myself and the other officer that was there on scene. She did have a knife in her right hand."
I understand the only way out of this debacle is going straight through it, but it's astounding the chief is actually trying to present this as a dynamic situation in which officers were at a tactical disadvantage. It was two (2) officers against a 5'2" 87-year-old woman who didn't speak English. It seems they could have regained the high ground by walking at a normal rate of speed around her. And if it looked like she might charge them, they could have walked slightly faster. (And it's your own damn fault you "contained" her on the high ground.)
But we're supposed to be grateful she was only tased. Chief Etheridge twice suggests she could have been shot. First, she might have been "accidentally" shot because an officer might have pulled a gun for god knows what reason…
Etheridge said he realizes that some people might ask why the officer didn't just retreat. But he said had the officer backed up down the sloping terrain, he could have fallen and accidentally shot the woman.
Go ahead and click through to view the gently sloping terrain for yourself. I guess this explanation is plausible. But that doesn't make it any less stupid. And the only plausible part is the "accidental" part. As we know, officers never shoot citizens. Their weapons "discharge" magically and fill citizens with bullet wounds. The only way an officer could "fall" and "accidentally" shoot someone is if the officer already has a gun out and pointing at the person. This is Chief Etheridge admitting he would have escalated to deadly force to "resolve" the situation.
Second, if the elderly woman had changed her grip on her kitchen knife in any way during the incident, she'd probably be dead right now.
"Lord help us if she had tried to stop the officer and held the knife in an aggressive manner, and then deadly force would have been used."
There are many problems with this statement, including the fact that "aggressive manner" is in the eye of the gun-wielding, badge-wearing beholder, but here's just one of them: for many people, knives are tools, not weapons. Its police officers who insist every tool is a weapon that keep situations like these from being de-escalated.
When an 87-year-old walks down a hill towards officers carrying a kitchen knife, she's not taking advantage of the high ground to overpower officers. She just wants to know why cops are yelling and pointing weapons at her. But these cops didn't want to know what she was doing. They just wanted her to stop walking around with a knife. So they tased her. And then they charged her. Here's one final detail from the story which indicates how little these officers actually care about the people they serve.
The grandmother was arrested on suspicion of misdemeanor criminal trespass and obstruction of an officer and held at the police station for about three hours, Douhne said. Police refused to allow his mother and sister to interpret for al-Bishara while she was being booked and having her mugshot taken.
At the end of the day, I guess we're supposed to be grateful officers showed up, took control of the situation, and got this 87-year-old miscreant off the street, if only for a few hours. I'm sure we'll see these same defensive statements again in the eventual civil rights lawsuit. When that happens, the cops will have to convince an actual court the force deployment wasn't excessive. Unfortunately for this woman, that court is far more easily persuaded than the court of public opinion.
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Filed Under: martha al-bishara, police, police brutality, tasers
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Look out police, that is only your shadow
She was gathering dandelions. I took a look at that picture, and am having a hard time seeing someone 87 years old hopping that fence, or breaking open a gate which is not shown. While the property was owned by a club, it was vacant, with an apparently open gate, or a break in the fence. A vacant lot and the club called the police because they felt threatened by an 87 year old lady?
Why dandelions? There is an explaination for that at the end of this post at Appellate Squawk.
She doesn't speak English, so they try Spanish. That doesn't work because she is Greek. Then they refused to allow her family to translate (one presumes both from and to her) at the police station.
I sure hope these cops don't run into anything that is actually life threatening, one can only guess what their reaction might be, but you can be sure shots will be fired.
Maybe Chief Etheridge should take that class in Tulsa. He could learn a thing or two about victimization.
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Re: Look out police, that is only your shadow
It would have been nice to hold a hand out to see if she would take it and allow them to take her home..
BUT, a police officer job is only to arrest.
What are the odds the Club had seen her before??
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Re: Look out police, that is only your shadow
Calling 911 == swatting someone.
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"- I can't believe you stabbed me...!"
"- BRAVELY stabbed you!"
Classic...
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What the hell kind of training do cops get these days?
Soooo - she wasn't holding it in an aggressive manner, and not trying to stop the police. So exactly why was she tased again?
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Re: What the hell kind of training do cops get these days?
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Re: What the hell kind of training do cops get these days?
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Re: What the hell kind of training do cops get these days?
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Re: Re: What the hell kind of training do cops get these days?
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Re: Re: What the hell kind of training do cops get these days?
Given the state of US policing she's lucky to have survived.
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al-Bishara
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Re: al-Bishara
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87-freaking-years-old
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Ulterior motive?
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How about some Rules of Engagement?
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Re: How about some Rules of Engagement?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't a native english speaker because the only alternative is you are a nutter, mate. Cheers.
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Re: Re: How about some Rules of Engagement?
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War crimes by peacekeepers.
Suggesting the police commit war crimes would not really be saying much. Given the difference in operating policies between law-enforcement and warfighters, rules of engagement for one don't generally work for the other.
For instance, soldiers are supposed to use solid-slug ammunition (typically FMJ rounds) when fighting against infantry or common military units. The use of hollowpoint rounds is considered cruel to unarmed human targets, and would be regarded as a war crime.
On the other hand, Law enforcement typically use hollowpoint or glazier rounds because they reduce penetration of missed shots. This is typically an advantage when shooting in an occupied municipal area, where an assault rifle shooting FMJ rounds could penetrate eleven homes. (We tested!)
It's entirely true that the US law enforcement services have been becoming more militarized, gaining military equipment from the department of defense, and choosing military standards (such as subdued insignia where police units should be easily identifiable as law enforcement agents of state)
It's entirely true that US law enforcement agencies now act as if they are separate from the populations they are supposed to serve, in contrast to the Peelian principles they are trained to uphold. They are now a separate caste to whom different rules of law apply.
And it's entirely true that US law enforcement agencies engage in a lot of crimes against humanity, resorting quickly and preemptively to the use of force, and using force disproportionately to the threats they face. They also torture or otherwise coerce to gain confessions or otherwise extract evidence, and this is before we get into common misconduct such as lying in testimony, planting evidence,exceeding forth-amendment protections against illegal search and seizure, resorting to SWAT tactics, using trick-pony dogs and false forensic tools to as evidence and so on.
But peacekeeping and law enforcement duties operate according to entirely different rules of engagement and as such resorting to methods that would be regarded in warfare as war crimes is ordinary.
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Re: War crimes by peacekeepers.
I think the point is that it shouldn't be considered ordinary. The fact we do consider it ordinary is disturbing. Hence the call for at least some form of Rules of Engagement for law enforcement. Maybe not the same ones as our military, but something to move us away from this constant barrage of police misconduct we're experiencing right now.
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Re: Re: War crimes by peacekeepers.
It is literally how it all works.
They oppress you until you speak out... then they wait... you get used to it, they oppress you again until you speak out, they wait again. So on and so forth until you don't even realize oppression for what it is. It is just a normal part of your daily life now, and the bonus will be when you get to call everyone telling you that you are welcoming your oppression nutters, or victim blamers, or insert your favorite insult here.
At the end of the day, the government is a reflection of its people. The few oppress the many because the many do nothing.
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I'd say those officers need to be tazed themselves...
Then and only then, would they be allowed to whimper home to their mommies.
Yeah, if this were a perfect world, the Chief would be included as well in this taze-fest.
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Octigenarian is code for "Ninja Assassin"
It's one of those things few things know, like the frequency with which ordinary non-white people turn into werewolves.
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She could have been wearing a disguise
Better tase than sorry.
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Cowards in blue
87 years old, holding a kitchen knife to cut flowers, against two officers, and the police chief is trying to spin it as though she was lucky she was 'only' tased, rather than killed on the spot, as though she was to blame, not his cowardly, trigger happy goons.
I'd say cowards like that and the scum defending them need to find new jobs but honestly with a showing like this pretty sure I wouldn't trust them to so much as run a lemonade stand without trying to hospitalize and/or kill someone for 'reaching for a gun!'/their wallet
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Re: Cowards in blue
Actually, she probably is lucky the taser didn't kill her. There's a reason they started calling them "less lethal" rather than "non lethal" weapons.
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If it were my grandmother...
If this was my Mommom.... dammit this infuriates me so much, I think I would end up dead confronting them, that is unless they keel over from fright first. If I had the spare cash I would send pallets worth of adult diapers to the police station...
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Re: If it were my grandmother...
Just attach a note... "These should help with the mess you all make when you shit yourselves the next time a 87 year old lady with a knife shows up!"
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Sorry, but this is a month old news.
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Re: Re: Re: Sorry, but this is a month old news.
So?
"And I really dislike yesteryear’s news"
So? This site doesn't just cover recent news.
"Further, that grandma didn’t speak nor understood any english, being from Syria or some neighboring country."
So... that excuses the behaviour of the officers? Do people now lose their rights and deserve to be given treatment that may kill them just because they don't speak the correct language now?
"Further, why ACAB fits to most american coppers but not most of european coppers/bobbies is well beyond me..."
Because they earn the title more than they do? Because officers in those other places are trained to de-escalate situations non-violently, whereas the Americans can't wait to use their weapons on helpless people?
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"Further, why ACAB fits to most american coppers but not most of european coppers/bobbies is well beyond me..."
Because they earn the title more than they do? Because officers in those other places are trained to de-escalate situations non-violently, whereas the Americans can't wait to use their weapons on helpless people?
Completely agree, had this been in say the UK (And we don't exactly have the best police in the world) this would have been delt with soo much better, the police office wouldn't have even had a weapon drawn, would have approched, attempted to communicate verbally, had that failed they would have tried with hand gestures and approach in a calm and controlled way. they would have only resorted to defence had she attacked the officers, and even then it would be a tazer, they would have just subdued her with physical force (Note, not excessive)
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and even then it wouldn't be a tazer,
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Whereas, having grown up in the UK, local cops even having a gun to use in the first place would be an unusual sight, and most situations get resolved without such things. In the other countries I've lived in, the focus seems to be on avoiding a fight, whereas for many in the US it seems to be on causing one.
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It doesn't take much to be President, just look at the Cheeto in Charge...
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Arrest is too good for these two idiot hick cops
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I had to add a bit of levity against another example of fear mongering destroying common sense as outlined in the article.
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It's over, officers!
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Years later, the taser is being used as a compliance enforcement device, a method of extracting revenge and a tool for torture.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, LEOs everywhere claim the taser is not being abused and is a vital tool in their arsenal.
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She was gardening!
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Re: She was gardening!
So not only was she wielding a knife, but expertly so. Should the officers wait until she had pruned them? She could have sliced them open and splattered all of their two ounzes of brain on the sidewalk before they even noticed.
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Re: Re: She was gardening!
Two full ounces of brain?
You're being generous...
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I'm sure David didn't mean two ounces each.
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Pacemaker
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It's over, Anakin. I have the high ground!"
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Stereotypes vs Actual Behaviour
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Stereotypes go both ways.
There was a moment I remember in the premiere of Gotham (S01E01) in which Harvey Bollock, the grizzled cynic of the Bullock / Gordon duo, is lamenting that he killed a guy (who shot at him first) because they learned post hoc the guy was framed.
Bollock, in the Gotham City PD -- allegedly the most corrupt police department in the United States -- feared for his badge for shooting an armed man who shot at him first. And this was after Ferguson.
No, the stereotype I know from Hollywood is that the police are -- with clear, mean-looking mustachioed exceptions -- entirely well meaning, they're super cautious, they take protect and serve to heart, and the loose cannons, the bad apples, the cops on the take (mob bribes) are the exceptions. And those guys always get killed in the end.
In real life, law enforcement is the mob. The bad apples are the sergeants and chiefs. Good guys (what's left of them) have to tread carefully not to get displaced or confined to a desk.
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What?
There were three officers, and as I recall, two had pulled guns, and one had his taser out. They were frightened of retreating because she could have advanced on them quickly and deployed her garden knife (she was more than 5 yards away). She could have disabled the two nearest officers while the third, behind them, was fumbling with his gun.
How do they train the police in America?
After tasing the 87 year old lady she was handcuffed and taken to the station, and not given medical attention for more than three hours.
Tasers are less lethal weapons, not non-lethal weapons, and are not supposed to be used on elderly persons, I thought.
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They must have categories for handing out these awards, such as:
Tasing the oldest nonthreatening woman,
Tasing the oldest nonthreatening man,
Tasing the youngest weakest non threatening woman possible,
Tasing or shooting the youngest child possible who could possibly as justification pass as an adult from behind,
Shooting the highest number of blacks for the crime of being black and going about their mundane daily business,
Like being at home in the middle of the night minding his own business, wow imagine the accolades she is getting because that one really takes the prize (I'm just curious as can be about how they plan to get away with this one),
Shooting and killing the youngest child possible who is holding a fake gun and who happens to be black of course because that would NEVER happen to a white child,
What else ... I know I'm forgetting something. They must have the award system down to a science with charts and graphs and subcategories within categories, and cross linking between genres, think of the possibilities! What else could possibly explain this rash of police brutality?!?!?!?! Wake up people, they are being rewarded!!!!!!
Now in a special category by itself which are sure to garner many bonus points are tasing and shooting incidents which involve failure to respond to their commands. Being naturally obtuse I believe, the thugs with guns do not seem to understand along with the fact that they don't care that not everyone speaks English or Spanish and that some people are <gasp> ... DEAF ... Failing to respond to an officer's oral command means the DEATH PENALTY by COP. (Which is why they were so surprised they didn't kill the dandelion lady. He might have been penalized with a loss of points for that.) So this must be the biggest prize of all ... when the victim at the hands of the police DOESN'T UNDERSTAND or CAN'T HEAR their commands. Shooting and killing garners more points than tasing obviously. **WINNER**WINNER**WINNER**
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In the UK, they play snooker. stop someone with a white car (the white ball) red car/ball, then a colored car(black for the most points), then start over.
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Someone needs to explain
It seems to me, if I was arrested for something, that I would appear in court prepared, I would as the judge exactly why the word of the cop is always taken as fact. I would then supply an inch or so of documents showing cops being caught lying, planting evidence etc, and then ask again what makes a cops word more accurate and truthful than mine.
I would be willing to bet no judge would be able to supply an answer.
If nothing else, I would have established reasonable doubt as to what the cop said.
Now, this only works if you did nothing wrong, and the cop just pulled a “I’m a cop, my word is law”.
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"no judge would be able to supply an answer."
The problem is, no judge has to. They and juries often believe law enforcement simply because they are the police. And the judge doesn't need to explain himself.
It's the same way judges don't have to explain why we believe a $2 preliminary drug test known for false positives entirely indicates that drugs were present without further testing.
It's the same way judges don't have to explain why we still think dog sniffs aren't a search themselves, but when they signal an indication of probable cause, even when they yield up to 93% false positives, and it is known some trainers train trick pony dogs that signal whenever the handler wants him to.
The legal system is not interested in justice, but in convictions. And filling jail cells. They have no interest in actual investigation and resent efforts to exculpate falsely-convicted inmates.
It may just be that we built the entire system wrong so it pursues the wrong objectives.
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