Paul Chambers Planning To Blow His Twitter Joke Trial Sky High...
from the that's-a-joke... dept
Paul Chambers, who has now lost twice in court for making a joke on Twitter (talking about "blowing [an] airport sky high!!" if it didn't reopen from weather delays), which everyone (including the police) agree was a joke, is now threatening to blow the case sky high, by appealing to the UK High Court. One would hope that the folks at the UK High Court recognize the chilling effects of prosecuting someone for making a silly statement on social networks that clearly had no intent behind it. Again -- before people accuse otherwise -- I have no problem with the message being investigated by police to make sure it wasn't serious. However, once it was clear that it was not a real threat, then no charges should have been brought. In the meantime, I'm still wondering what kind of terrorists first Tweet that they're actually going to blow up an airport... Perhaps the folks behind the TSA's security team can answer that...Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: free speech, jokes, paul chambers, uk
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The ones that want to make it easy for the government to catch them.
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The same ones who want to make binary explosives, but require 3.1 ounces of each fluid?
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Where's the deterrent effect in just being let go once they determine it's a joke? That just wouldn't work.
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Re: A matter of who needs to be deterred.
It's obviously police and prosecutor and courts who need to be deterred from acting without sense. Officious idiots who act on "if even 1% chance" or to score another case are a greater danger by far to citizens than any alleged terrorists.
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Face it, anyone who wants to take a plane down can do so with little to no difficulty and with things already allowed.
The only true solution is no bags, a paper jumper for clothing and an oral and non-oral enema to be 100% sure.
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Actually, that's not so surprising. It was common practice for the IRA to call the police and tell them just before they were going to blow something up in England.
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However, the IRA didn't usually target civilians - they were known to only target soldiers, police and government figures along with (normally government) property. That way they were seen as 'legitimate' fighters rather than haphazard murderers. Mind you, blowing up pubs that squaddies frequented along with the general public kind of destroyed that image...
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Tweeted threat
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Re: Tweeted threat
they're two very different things.
this was far more the latter than the former. kinda like if you heard someone say the same thing to his mates, ya know?
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Re: Tweeted threat
By that logic, anyone who's a suspect of a police investigation (murder, etc) should be charged for the cost, because they're making them waste time when they could be looking for the actual criminal. (they had a motive and/or said something in public that made them a suspect).
Hey, anyone who ever says "I'm going to kill you" to anyone should be billed for the costs of a preventive murder investigation by the police.
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Re: Tweeted threat
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Fast, Cheap, Good. Choose Two.
So they choose "fast and cheap" to get actionable information but when they find it's not good, they're caught with their pants down and lobby to change societal norms.
So they call on The State to criminalize comedy/satire/parody so they don't have to hire that army of intelligence analysts to sift through the information.
Why? So the executive can purchase a 70-foot yacht for saving money that would normally take an army of intelligence analysts to get "Fast and Good" information.
Duh!
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Where is the joke Mike ??
this is not a prank call and it was not done as a joke..
The only two people who said it was a joke, is the arresting cop and his laywer. Not even the guy who said it said it was as a joke.
He said it was done out of anger and frustration, Mike,, anger and frustration is not a joke !!!
And who are you to decide if what he said to nearly 500 people can be considered a threat, sure it is not a threat to you as you are no where near the airport.
But if you are working at that airport, and HAVE to be there, there someone saying that are going to blow up your place of work IS a threat, and it might, and probably will instill fear into any normal person.
Especially if they are at that airport.
So it was not a message to a 'few close friends' it was a broadcast to about 500 people, and it was publicly available to millions of people.
So only Mike, his defense lawyer and a cop think it was a joke, no one else sees it as such, they see it for what it is, and what it was intented to do, instill fear into the people at the airport.
"Do something about the delays OR ELSE". is a threat..
If it is a joke, then Mike let us in on the punchline..
The punchline will be that guy going to prison for being heavily fined for causing or instilling terror, and making a threat to a national and federal asset.
And if they could fine him for being stupid they would do that as well.. I would
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Re: Where is the joke Mike ?? He's ranting at you again that's where
As for the rest.... I don't apparantly speak the same language as you so I've given up trying to translate into english. What's the weather like on your planet?
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Re: Where is the joke Mike ??
Go to that site there and copy paste what you just wrote and hear out loud what it sounds like LoL
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Re: Where is the joke Mike ??
Can you present other formal Twitter Documents (AKA "Tweets") that are executed by the Twitter company? Out of the estimated 95,000,000 Twitter documents (or "Tweets") per day, what is the percentage that hold recognized legal bearing? Please list out the jurisdictions. Lastly, should Justin Bieber be scared of the findings you'll surely report back here?
I bring these important things up because it seems you have a different view of the Twitter service. Many people see the communication equivalent to the writings on a bathroom wall rather than any type of legal document. In absence of legal intent, additional research would need to be performed, no?
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#13 - Re: Where is the joke Mike ??
Careful what you wish for.
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Another "what kind"
That text was aimed at those daring do-gooders in the Secret Service to taunt them because they'll never stop him! Bwa! Ha! Ha! H.... Curses! Foiled again!
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Re: Another "what kind"
You know he's always ready for an evil plot.
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For those of you playing the home game there'll be another chance to win after this message from our sponsor... :-)
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This is not security, this is just ridiculous, next someone will disapear and if they find him/her ever again it will be found that he/she was enhanced interrogated.
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Same as above but within earshot of witness'?
Same as first, but published?
(Certainly in Canada anyway for all of the above. We are not allowed to protect/defend ourselves, so threats of violence are considered very serious. I've known this for many years.)
I don't agree with the charge, but think before you txt ppl.
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In a free country it's supposed to be up to the government (justice system, whatever) to prove malicious intent, rather than invent it to make a point. It is not (or shouldn't be) their job to scare people into double-thinking everything that comes out of their mouths for fear it might "offend" or "threaten" someone it wasn't intended for. Start that and everyone will end up locked up.
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Rapist: "Tell the cops and I will kill you!"
Maybe the rapist means it, maybe they don't, but I am sure the victim believed it.
You do not make a threat unless you plan on carrying it through(I think most people learn this in kindergarten). If you do not plan on following through, then it is useless and pointless to make it.
If police could not draw their firearms under any circumstances, what would be the point of carrying them?
If a robber enters your home and you pull a gun on them, you better be prepared to pull the trigger, else it will be taken from you and likely used against you.
Rapist at court: "It was only a joke. If I had meant to kill her, wouldn't I have done it already?"
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if it's on the INTARWEBS, it must be true!!!!
way to pull the heart strings in that scenario
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Please do continue and elaborate on how actually physically threatening someone with death whilst in the middle of a violent situation is similar to a comment suggesting a possible threat with no evidence of the means to commit it made to a number of parties not directly connected with the object of the "threat".
I'd love to hear the reasoning.
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Be a man and take responsibility for what you say and do.
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So... let's see. If I say here that I'm going to blow something up then you are also part of my conspiracy and are going to turn yourself in to the police for immediate incarceration like a good citizen? That might almost be worth it.....
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Is it common to go around threatening people/things for fun?
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The way society is going these days, I wouldn't advise anyone to say what you said in public unless they did want to lose their child.
What about bullies who think they are being funny, is that alright? Because it is just a joke, right? When do we stop the bullying? After the first "joke" or the last "joke?"
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I asked my question yesterday morning.
"Why is it a dumb idea?"
And we are back to people not having to be responsible for what they say and do.
A man is only as good as his word.
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Could you please clarify what the intent is?
If they didn't get their fudge packed he was going to give them all blowjobs?
He needed them all to shit in one place to gather all the cocaine they had swallowed?
What do you really mean when you say "...again confusing what someone says with intent."?
This is going to be very hard for us to communicate as I do not know if what you are saying is the same as what you intended to say.
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The Joker Should be Fined, not Jailed
Having worked for many years for TSA, I know it is actually the norm for terrorists to give advance warning of their intentions. There are many reasons for this: to cause terror, to maximize terror, to disrupt travel, to cause maximum expense to their adversary at minimal expense to the terrorist, to bleed their adversary with many small threats ("the death of a thousand cuts"), to thumb their noses at the ineffectiveness of security personnel who cannot prevent the explosion despite being warned, to frustrate security personnel, to make security personnel waste time and money figuring out which one is the REAL threat, to divert security forces on false tips, to be able to say "we warned you", to try to achieve their objective without having to actually detonate and kill (i.e. like a kidnapper's ransom note), to expose the incompetence of their adversary, to gain publicity for their cause, to gain a sense of justice in warning so civilians are evacuated, to attract security forces to the scene so that more security forces can be killed, to test out the security forces' capabilities and see if they can actually stop the plot ("dry runs"), etc. etc.
This is not merely a joke, it is a joke regarding a serious matter, and one that requires serious investigations to be made, causes serious expense, causes serious disruption and causes serious preventive steps to be taken on the off chance that it is a real threat. The joker should be penalized to dissuade future jokers.
So the question then is how to penalize and what the penalty should be. I believe people should be held accountable for their actions, not allowed to slide or to dump the costs of their actions onto someone else. Jailing the joker does not cover the costs, so to me the penalty should simply be to hold him responsible for ALL the extra expense his joke caused, which is likely thousands of dollars. Knowing that they would be forced to pay for the expenses caused by such jokes, future jokers would be likely to think a little more before shooting off their mouths (including their "online mouths") in this way, unwittingly aiding and abetting terrorism, and either deliberately or unintentionally causing disruption and expense.
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Re: The Joker Should be Fined, not Jailed
See kids don't ever say these things in public anymore "I will murder you", "I'll kill ya", "I'll blow a casket", "I'll blow you away" or anything like that ever because the TSA isn't capable of distinguishing you from a real threat.
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Re: The Joker Should be Fined, not Jailed
Seriously? Get a shovel an dig up Spike Milligan and/or sue his estate - he once theatened a major railway station
You really want to start bankrupting people every time they say something that gets taken out of context? You might want to think that through before you get all Rambo'd up about it.
People say what they think and it's not always smart. It's called being human. Not being punished for being dumb is called "living in a free country". I understand that was what you claim to have thrown off that "crushing yoke" of us Brits for, remember?
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Re: The Joker Should be Fined, not Jailed
The actual quote was Trying to put your words in someone elses mouth and pretend they belong there isn't nice.
There's a bit of a difference between phoning or even emailing in a threat to an airport or to police and "tweeting" a threat to someone unconnected wouldn't you say?
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Re: The Joker Should be Fined, not Jailed
Do you not see the Orwellian aspect of this? That that is exactly why people object? We should not have to think about whether the government would approve of what we want to say before we say it. If it comes to that point, then we no longer truly have freedom of speech.
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Re: Re: The Joker Should be Fined, not Jailed
Slander, libel...so yes, you are supposed to think before you speak/publish.
Is there really that many people here saying we should not be accountable for what we say or do?
As already asked @ 7:37am
"Why is it a dumb idea?"
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/yahoocanada/101123/canada/bride_to_be_moves_on_after_tragic_prank
The "jokester" in this case is lucky. Could have been three lives directly ruined instead of just the two.
Here is a real funny prank.
http://www.break.com/index/hulk-hands-sucker-punch-prank-1953279
No one lost an eye, so both are funny, right?
Definition of PRACTICAL JOKE
: a prank intended to trick or embarrass someone or cause physical discomfort
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/practical+joke?show=0&t=1290601226
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Jokes aren't funny the same way to everyone. Take sexist jokes for example. I might see humour in it, my wife may not.
I see Andrew Dice Clay is still a raging success.
Are you seriously suggesting you can say wtf you like because YOU think it is funny?
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Surely my intent was clear, taken in context, yes?
Are racial jokes okay? No one is getting maimed. Nor, generally(I doubt I have heard them all), according to MY sense of humor, can they be misconstrued as a threat.
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I'll give you a clue: What someone says doesn't hurt unless you choose to take offense at it, making it different from a fist in the face which always hurts.
Clearly there's a line that society as a whole draws on what is acceptable, but such a line should not be rigidly enforced by laws and by common sense application such a line is and should be a LONG way north of where you seem to be.
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People sometimes bully because they think it is funny. Does your right to free speech trump all others rights?
"What someone says doesn't hurt unless you choose to take offense at it, making it different from a fist in the face which always hurts."
So there is no problem with bullying then so long as there is nothing physical right?
Read how far north I am:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101122/13002411972/paul-chambers-planning-to-blow-his-twitte r-joke-trial-sky-high.shtml#c227
I am so far North of you probably because I am in Canada.
I believe you should be responsible for your actions and words*. You feel we shouldn't be responsible at all. Fine. No reason for anyone to be upset at Obama or any other politician when they do not keep their promises either then is there?
*Note that I put a name to my posts. Unlike all the ms. cowards who just want to antagonize and flip sides in debate at will.
Note to self¹ "Do not argue/debate with the coward trolls as they can't/won't take responsibility for their posts."
²"I can say whatever I want and flip sides at will because no one is responsible for what they say."
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Yes, jokes go bad, but where are you going with that? In your examples, there were external measurable consequences of the joke, and the joker should at least potentially face the consequences of them. In the joke in this story, there were no such consequences.
what one finds humorous is not necessarily funny to others or to the person(s) the supposed joke is played on.
Of course, but I again don't see the relevance. How funny a joke is has no bearing on its legal ramifications.
Are racial jokes okay?
Whether they're OK or not, nobody should go to jail for them.
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Same thing I've stated since the beginning.
"I don't agree with the charge, but think before you txt ppl."
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101122/13002411972/paul-chambers-planning-to-blow-his-twit ter-joke-trial-sky-high.shtml#c227
It was a dumb idea because he could be charged and fined with possible imprisonment. Your grandmother has to get groped to get on a plane, and he's trying to be funny about blowing up an airport?
When/if I break a law, I don't go looking for a cop to do it in front of. If a 27yr. old of today does not understand how posts on the net work, I feel we and himself are all safer with him in jail.
So all anyone is arguing with me about is that they feel they should be able to do and say whatever they want and there should be no consequences. They are not responsible.
I am very happy I am very far north of that type of person.
Forget everything I said, I am not taking responsibility for it. I was just joking with you guys.
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Oh, I missed that, I thought all along you were in favor of this and thought he should go to jail.
If a 27yr. old of today does not understand how posts on the net work, I feel we and himself are all safer with him in jail.
Not understanding the internet very well should be a criminal offense?
So all anyone is arguing with me about is that they feel they should be able to do and say whatever they want and there should be no consequences.
Then you have totally missed the argument. The argument is about when it's appropriate for the government to punish someone for something they said, not whether it's appropriate for someone to deal with the consequences of their actions.
If I say a heinous insult to someone's face and he hits me, I have just paid the consequences of my actions. Perhaps my name will be publicly shamed for what I said - more consequeces I have to deal with. Nobody is arguing against this. However, that does not mean I should face jail time for saying something nasty.
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"It's called free speech, which says that I should within reason support someone else's right to say something even if I detest what they are saying."
Here is some more pranksters. No physical violence. Just a good "joke."
"Canadian military police are investigating fake calls to families of soldiers in Afghanistan claiming their relative has died in combat, authorities have said."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11834985
Real fucking funny. No one is hurt by the words. Over and out.
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I am again not seeing your point. Some people are terrible people and do things nobody should do? Of course. Did those people break any law? I can't think what criminal offense they would be guilty of, though this is in Canada so I don't know. The police claim the perpetrators could go to jail, but it doesn't say for what.
Perhaps we're disagreeing about the role of government. You seem to find it very important that someone face the consequences for their actions, perhaps to the point of believing that government should make sure this happens every time. I think that leads to a government micromanaging its citizens lives, and to a lack of liberty.
I feel it's more appropriate for the government to simply enforce (just) laws, and accept that some people are going to get away with some things. We don't have to be happy about that, but I think it's better than the side-effects of trying to make sure everyone pays for every crappy thing they do.
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Yes, I don't think I need to repeat myself and clarify every little detail that should supposedly be understood when taken in context, like the joke. But because you are polite I will summarize for you.
I don't agree with what happened to him, but I don't think he should get off free either.
We have laws regarding slander and libel, therefore you do not have free speech, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.
I break the law everyday. Do I think I should be hunted down and punished along with every other law breaker? No.
If I get caught, should I be responsible for what I have done? Yes.
Can people call someone telling them their family member has died overseas in combat and get away with it, if caught, because it is a "joke?" According to people commenting here, yes. Jokes are harmless. After all, words only hurt if you choose to let them hurt. Plus, you have a right to free speech.
You will not change my mind, nor I yours, further debate is futile. Besides, I am neither articulate or a typist, making it a pita to get my point across.
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Of course! Personally I'm not arguing for consequence-free speech, or that there are or should be no limits on speech.
If I get caught, should I be responsible for what I have done? Yes.
I agree, with the caveat that some laws are unjust and it is wrong for someone to be punished under them.
Can people call someone telling them their family member has died overseas in combat and get away with it, if caught, because it is a "joke?" According to people commenting here, yes. Jokes are harmless.
Just to be clear here, I am not saying someone should get away with it because it's harmless, I am arguing that there are some circumstances where someone should get away with something even if it's harmful. And that is because the consequences to society of making sure they can't get away with it are even more harmful.
Plus, you have a right to free speech.
I think it's one of the cornerstones of a free society. Even harmful, hateful speech must be protected, in general. I would almost always side in favor of free speech over other considerations (in case you haven't noticed).
You will not change my mind, nor I yours, further debate is futile.
I don't know about that, changing each others' minds is not the only purpose of debate. Others can see it and be prompted to examine the issue more thoughtfully. And we can understand each other better even if nobody changes positions. I don't feel I totally understand your position, but certainly better than when we started.
Besides, I am neither articulate or a typist, making it a pita to get my point across.
haha, well I appreciate you sticking with it, it's been a pleasure.
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Which one(s)?
Then, relating to who?
American? Canadian? Chinese?
Laws aren't about being just. It is about making money.
If you believe otherwise, possibly you can explain why pot is illegal while alcohol and tobacco are not?
"I don't know about that, changing each others' minds is not the only purpose of debate. Others can see it and be prompted to examine the issue more thoughtfully. And we can understand each other better even if nobody changes positions."
Agreed. But I am not going to repeat myself. It is already there. I can't help it if you or others did not read my entire post. "Oh, I missed that..."
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Um... you want me to find all the laws I think are unjust? No, thanks.
Then, relating to who?
American? Canadian? Chinese?
Humans.
Laws aren't about being just. It is about making money.
A cynical view, but there is some truth to it.
Agreed. But I am not going to repeat myself. It is already there. I can't help it if you or others did not read my entire post. "Oh, I missed that..."
That's fair.
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If it were all about money then pot would be legal, as would most other drugs, and they would all be taxed.
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I agree with most of your post. With an exception.
Pot will be legal when they figure out how to tax it.
It is easy to grow. Anyone can throw a few seeds in the ground and have a years supply. Tax free.
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No soil needed.
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Right on man! They should have waited the week and a bit to see if there was to be any consequences.
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A/ Backed with an intent to follow up the words with action
B/ Shown that he may have the physical means and knowledge to carry out such an action
and
C/ Be directed in some way towards the "object" of the words rather than to a random group of unconnected people
As Mike said, to investigate such a statement is acceptable, but to arrest following determination that the statement fails not 1 but all 3 of those measures is absurd.
You suggest that it is the responsibility of the speaker to guard their words and to some extent that may be true but are you seriously suggesting that there is not a concurrent responsibility on the receiver of those words to consider motive, context and intent when hearing or reading them?
(and in case you missed it that's the answer to your question "Why is it a dumb idea?")
Or have you simply had a sense of humour bypass and are incapable of perceiving words to convey anything other than the litteral dictionary meaning?
Oh, and by the way, such meaning can still be multiple and also cultural as well as changing with time. Example? How would you react if I called you a "Berk"? You may well be confused as a non-brit as the word is colloquial. If you were a brit you might be mildly offended as it is a mild swear word that generally translates as something like "one who has acted or spoken in a non-sensible way". If on the other hand you were a Londoner of perhaps 40-odd years ago you might start making threats of your own as the entomology is from the cockney rhyming slang "Berkshire Hunt" meaning a highly insulting word for a woman's vagina.
Conclusion: Words mean very little without context, motive and intent.
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Re:
Backed with an intent to follow up the words with action
"Why is it a dumb idea?" because it must be
Shown that he may have the physical means and knowledge to carry out such an action
"Why is it a dumb idea?" because it must
Be directed in some way towards the "object" of the words rather than to a random group of unconnected people
"Why is it a dumb idea?" because it must be
a concurrent responsibility on the receiver of those words to consider motive, context and intent when hearing or reading them?
Good answers!
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Seriously. How big of a threat is a 77 yr. old guy to Obama with all the secret service/security around?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/stupid/vet-77-busted-obama-death-threat
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I'd agree though actually I think if everything is working correctly social pressure and reaction takes care some of the gray areas where you don't want definition anyway. Take the Cooks Source thing. Has a little bit too much flavour of mob justice for my taste, but it strikes me as an example of where society rather than the law decides what is and isn't acceptable to say.
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