Georgia Considering Law To Let Police Monitor Any Medicine You Buy
from the that's-not-how-to-stop-meth dept
There are plenty of communities that have problems with meth, but it seems that law enforcement keeps overreacting to the problem. We've already made it difficult to buy the cold medicine that works (the kind that has pseudoephedrine), leading to ridiculous situations like the grandmother arrested for buying two whole boxes of cold medicine for her grandkids. Now it seems that lawmakers in Georgia are going beyond even that. Radley Balko points us to a story about proposed legislation in Georgia that would give law enforcement full access to a list of all medication you've bought -- including over-the-counter medicines. The idea, of course, is to stop meth production by letting law enforcement see if any individual has bought enough of this or that medicines to make meth. But does anyone really believe that law enforcement officials won't abuse the ability to see what kinds of (perfectly legal) medicines lots of people are taking?In the meantime, Balko is also discussing the impact of those laws to make over-the-counter cold medicine hard to get. The end result? Meth use has increased (by 34% in the last year) and more people have become criminals:
But an Associated Press analysis of federal data reveals that the practice has not only failed to curb the meth trade, which is growing again after a brief decline. It also created a vast and highly lucrative market for profiteers to buy over-the-counter pills and sell them to meth producers at a huge markup.So the answer is now to make the problem even more ridiculous by letting the police spy on every pill you buy?
In just a few years, the lure of such easy money has drawn thousands of new people into the methamphetamine underworld.
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Sadly, though, the constant attempts to cut off the source of pseudoephedrine (and previously just ephedrine) have made the situation worse at almost every turn. The whole "exploding meth lab", for example, is not a myth but it's also not a result of the actual process of making meth: it happens because of the huge vats of alcohol used to break down cold pills to get pure pseudoephedrine. Previously, when plain ephedrine was coming illegally from Mexico (and later Canada), there were no explosions - and while the crackdown on those illegal sources of ephedrine did reduce meth usage overall, it also increased the dangers associated with production and use, and hugely increased the presence of "bad" (chemically imperfect and thus even more harmful) meth on the streets
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Not too keen on this one
Letting Joe Policeman, who lacks formal training in the medical field have access to records seems like a scary prospect. How will they be trained? It seems Law Enforcement is already running plenty of cell phone location traces, and I haven't seen many results of how this has made us safer.
How about we see some results from that before handing more civil liberties over?
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Re: Not too keen on this one
Screw Joe Policeman, can you imagine the way Officer Bubbles is salivating at the thought of getting this law passed in his jurisdiction?
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Re: Re: Not too keen on this one
They can't even pass DRM laws right. (which is good for them)
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That means, if people want to take drugs they should be allowed to do so and live with the consequences, in time society will create a culture around it that will truly discourage such acts.
Even law enforcement people already realized that.
L.E.A.P. - Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
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Hell, 6 of the 10 highest ranking students my graduating year from high school were light to HEAVY drug users.
So, it's bullcrap that there are 'consequences' from using drugs, unless you are talking about using them while you are pregnant.
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For every bright drug user there is, I can show you in the streets tens if not hundreds of failed people.
That doesn't mean it should be prohibited though, they act as a warning sign to everyone who wants to delve into that life and that the consequences will be severe, no need to make it more severe using law enforcement to do it.
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There is no consequences right?
Go an fill your ass with meth and see where you will end up.
Before that do this experiments to understand some things.
- Get a boiled egg and put that immersed in a meth solution to see what happens to the calcium.
- Get a steak and put meth on it to see what happens over night.
Meth will melt your teeth away(a.k.a. Meth Mouth) and attack every tissue it comes in contact with, not to mention the psychological problems it amplifies and causes.
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You know that the military uses it to enhance performance, right?
"Meth will melt your teeth away(a.k.a. Meth Mouth) and attack every tissue it comes in contact with, not to mention the psychological problems it amplifies and causes."
Meth mouth is the result of the dry mouth meth causes. Other drugs or diseases that produce dry mouth can cause the same thing.
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Even the coke addicts made fun of that.
You know that a lot of pilots in the U.S. army are paranoid because of it and keep shooting anything that moves.
Have you ever been awake for 2 or 3 days?
You start hearing voices that is no joke, you reasoning gets impaired and it gets harder to make decisions and somehow you get jaundiced for some reason I don't exactly know why, but it can't be good for your liver.
What do you think will happen to someone that keeps using that crap for ten years?
Just look at the photos of people who keep doing that and you will see what happens, if that is not enough for you, go try it, I don't care and I believe the government shouldn't care either, I'm informing you that bad things will happen and I'm telling you exactly what will happen in no uncertain terms, it is your choice to go ahead and used but you will need to live with the consequences.
Even little exposure(a year) to that crap can damage your heart and circulation and you will feel the problems not in your 20's or 30's but when you are 40, your skin gets all messed up, sores appear from nowhere, brown patches of skin and all that circulatory related problems starts to pop up when you are not in your prime physical condition anymore, is that what you want? fine go ahead and do it, just don't say it doesn't have consequences, it does and they are severe.
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No, because they all get dry mouth. But, they're not the only ones. A friend of mine is a dentist and he has seen lots of patients with bad teeth and gun disease caused by dry mouth from things other than meth.
What do you think will happen to someone that keeps using that crap for ten years?
Yeah, all those ex-Air Force pilots look really messed up.
/s
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Drug abuse is like alcohol abuse it will lead you to a self-destructing path that most people can't handle, but some do, there are some functional alcoholics, but eventually every heavy drinker will end up in a bed jaundice screaming, go to any hospital and ask to see a terminal Cirrhosis patients to see if it is pretty.
The same way most drug addicts end up on the streets, commit suicide, stop grooming themselves, stop caring about the world and themselves.
Still, the government should not prohibit the drugs that causes that, but inform the population of what can happen and help society build their own cultural defenses against it. People should be able to fail and learn from that, and we should be there to help them pick themselves up if needed.
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I don't know what the answer is, but what they're proposing is easy enough to get around. Next time: my mobile hydroponics station.
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Has any form of prohibition ever worked?
BTW, I am not condoning drugs, alcohol, firearm abuse. Merely pointing out reality that laws don't prevent actions, they only punish actions when caught.
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Re: Has any form of prohibition ever worked?
Uh, because they have more guns and people that can use them than you do?
Srsly, they are going to protect you even if they have to kill you to do it.
I mean just look at the insanity and drivel these mostly clueless chuckle heads spew on a regular basis.
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However all that did was allow the cartels to step in, take over, and expand dramatically throughout the united states.
It did cause a drop in the quality, which led to greatly increased violence at lower levels. ( desperate tweekers react badly to shitty high priced dope)
I guess that's a victory...right?
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It won't happen...
Police don't need everyone's medical information. Anyone who says differently can goosestep their way back to the Motherland.
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Georgia Sheriffs?
Wayl, now see here, boy, it's lookin' like you mighta boughta few too many of those pansy oh-tee-cee medi-KAY-shuns. Mebee we otta getcha over to the jayl-house and SERCH yer person, hmmm? Oh, anya gotta tayllite busted here, too (sound of taillight shattering). That'll be another week in jayl...
-
Does anyone else hear "Deliverance" music playing faintly?
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1) Because as the AP story shows -- It doesn't work.
2) Its more government surveillance.
Consider what Oregon has done -- Prescriptions required for Sudafed.
I know a lot of you would hate the inconvenience, but here are the results in Oregon:
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No need for a doctor's visit just for a cold.
BTW, Sudafed wasn't necessarily the first, and best choice to treat a cold anyway.
It just happened to be one of the most successfully marketed drugs a generation ago and the brand name became and enduring asset for it's manufacturer.
Obviously the manufacturer (McNeil) was not too pleased with Oregon.
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I have no love for the pharmaceutical industry as a whole, but if all they had to base the restriction on was "this might be used to make something else that's illegal", I'd be pretty pissed too...
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Phenylephrine has not been shown to be an effective decongestant. Two recent studies showed no difference to placebo.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
First of all, I think daily extended use of any decongestant is a bad idea. It raises your blood pressure, and it doesn't treat the cause of the problem.
If you are treating a cold, this is a short-term problem, and other more effective short-term solutions exist. If you have more than a short-term problem you should indeed see your doctor.
Short-term relief can be achieved with oxymetazoline spray which works better than pseudoephedrine.
Yes oxymetazoline has its own problems, and it does need to be labeled better IMO, but as I said, it is the best short-term solution for a short-term problem.
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List and citation, please.
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I believe the numbers are something around 38% the bioavailability of PDE, sure it works as a nasal spray but good luck with that when you have a cold...
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Perhaps you should read more carefully.
The medication is Oxymetazoline.
I'll not give the brand name, but it is well known.
Much could be said here about medications to use with a cold, but then we're getting waaay off TD topics so I'll just leave it at this --> If Oxymetazoline can't open a nose, there is absolutely no chance that Pseudoephedrine would be able to open it either.
The caveat is that you just can't stay on Oxymetazoline, it should only be for a few days.
Now, back to the central issue of today's post. The reason I brought up the Oregon experience is that in my line of work it is easy to encounter individuals who have torn themselves up with many different substances -- legal and illegal.
It is my subjective, and totally anecdotal observation that the Oregon law has reduced the numbers of people I run into who have been actively destroying themselves with Meth.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'll not give the brand name, but it is well known.
Actually, it's used in at least half a dozen products.
The caveat is that you just can't stay on Oxymetazoline, it should only be for a few days.
Like about 3 days. Which means it is of limited usefulness and is also why it can't be said to "work just as well".
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Citation, please.
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There are? Please, please tell me which ones they are, as I haven't found them. As an Oregon resident and severe allergy sufferer, the law requiring a prescription for pseudofed is something that pisses me off to no end. I haven't found anything that offers anything like the relief I get from it, and doctors are not even able to write a single script that will carry me through the allergy season. So, not only do I get to pay extra for a medically unnecessary doctor consultation, I get to do so three times per year.
Also, the OTC medication that worked the best for me, Drixoral, is not available in Oregon AT ALL anymore, prescription or not, since the law reduced their sales to the point where it's not even worth addressing the market, period. I curse the lawmakers every allergy season now.
What do we get for that? Nothing much -- there isn't any visible reduction in our meth problem.
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Allergy is a chronic problem. OTC decongestants are not intended to treat allergy, nor are they capable of treating it. They may be able to tide you over by quieting the worst of the symptoms, but they leave the problem that provoked those symptoms just as strong as ever. Colds on the other hand, are a short-term problem for which decongestants are appropriate.
Further, how wise does it sound to chronically use a medication which has been documented to increase blood pressure when that medication doesn't even treat the basic issue causing your problem? Note that even incremental increase in blood pressure is associated with incremental increased risk of heart disease and stroke over the long-term.
You say your doctor is treating your allergies with a decongestant and then expects you to come back 3 X a year for a new prescription?
Go see and Allergist or an ENT who treats allergy.
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I would suggest that perhaps your blanket suggestions are just that, and that there are people such as myself for whom there is no effective long-term treatment. For such cases, there is absolutely nothing wrong with relieving the symptoms and calling it good.
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Unfortunately, drug laws usually apply to "all people".
Well if it's any consolation to those here who experienced consternation at my suggestion that maybe Oregon's Sudafed law might be a good thing, I have to say I was surprised by the statistics linked to in the comments to this post. The statistics showed that, newspaper articles and public official statements notwithstanding, Oregon does not seem to be winning the war on meth, and probably the benefit from the law has been much less than hoped for.
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OTC medications certainly were intended to and could effectively treat allergy symptoms, at least until these idiotic laws were passed.
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Well, I think you can agree that "treat the symptom" isn't the best strategy for most people's problems, but I accept what you say about your situation. There are indeed instances where you just have to "relieve the symptoms and call it good".
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Can't do that. It's secret.
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Care to work on your causal effect hypothesis?
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I also wonder what mitigating circumstances there were. Did the police actually do their jobs and shut down the larger local producers in that 4 year period, for example? Did other drugs become more prevalent? Lots of explanations come to mind that don't involve forcing uninsured people to pay hundreds of dollars for cold medicine (as I understand your healthcare system anyway).
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There are many OTC drugs that people treat like Tic-Tacs, and many are not without the potential for significant morbidity and mortality, whether it be due to drug interactions with other drugs, alcohol, etc. or the accidental overdose threshold is very low. Nobody ever reads the fine print labels or the package inserts, and the classic American medical belief is that if one pill is good, then maybe four is better. People overdose routinely on things as mundane as aspirin (yes, I did that, too - when pain gets bad enough and you don't have any percocet or vicodin, you'll pound as many aspirin down as you can to stop it).
The question still remains, which drugs can be sold OTC without significant adverse outcome effect potential, and which cannot? I sure can't answer that, and it seems the only determinant of that is the FDA and the all-powerful drug lobbies. I don't really know what the best approach is, given the never ending debate about it within the medical community, but that particular drug has enough misuse and abuse potentia, and a long history, l to warrant making it RX only.
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People need the chance to fail to learn something, trying to stop failure is the best way to assure it.
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No, according to those getting the money, that's exactly what we need. You can never be too rich.
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So we agree that what people need is information to make their own informed decisions right?
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They say there is a reason for it all...
The prescription drug system exists for a reason. Either you buy into that reasoning or you don't. If you do, the obviously there are a number of OTC drugs that don't belong in that category. They're just too dangerous in the hands of laymen.
That's what this is all about. Drugs that are "dangerous in the hands of laymen".
OTOH, plenty of people think that drug prescriptions are bogus and are aware of the history behind this.
Assuming that just because it's managed to be made OTC that all is sunshine and daisies is just rediculously naeive.
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Re: They say there is a reason for it all...
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Re: Re: They say there is a reason for it all...
Yes an un-managed system would give you more freedom, but it would also mean that some at the other end of the spectrum would (not might) die.
Used unwisely medication can indeed be dangerous.
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Re: Re: Re: They say there is a reason for it all...
Should antiperspirant be controlled?
The problem wasn't people it probably was sales people who sold anything to people by lying to them and they trusted those people.
Want to see something amazing?
The same drugs you buy for humans you can buy for dogs without prescriptions or regulations is the biggest hole ever, if you can't get it in a drugstore just go to a pet store and it probably won't change because if anybody tries to mess with antibiotics for animals they probably face the biggest crowd of angry farmers they ever saw.
In a sense metropolitan people are sheep, they just do what they are told and don't question things that is bad.
There are bad things that could happen if you misuse, miss mix or take the wrong drug or dose but that is the risk of living and I don't believe the majority of the people are in the "dumb zone".
To not say I don't see nothing good about it, I see that it helps to keep pharmacists and doctors honest, but that is it, it doesn't have an effect on determined people who want to acquire something, it doesn't have an effect on dumb people who OD but it does have a great effect on people who need medication through legal means.
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Re: They say there is a reason for it all...
To make money for some at the expense of others.
Either you buy into that reasoning or you don't.
Hey, isn't what government is for?
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By this reasoning, there should be no OTC medications at all, since every single one of them will harm you if taken improperly.
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That's a good idea, thanks for the suggestion. We'll get our lobbyists working on that right away.
AMA
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They're not connected of course, hence sometimes if you're whole family is sick you buy cold medicine at CVS and then walk across the street to Walgreens.
What's this new system going to do that the old one doesnt? Corporations have already invested a lot of money into these systems.
Of course, I guess, as with any IT system, there are bugs as CVS and their $75MM fine found out (http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2010/10/15/130585355/cvs-pseudoephedrine-meth-smurfs)
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Cops
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Re: Cops
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Kind of like laws in general, eh? Should we just get rid of them all since criminals are going to ignore them anyways? Hey, then there would be no more criminals! Crime problem solved!
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Ask why, not why not.
Laws that serve no useful purpose should be ELIMINATED. They only serve to interfere with respectable citizens trying to protect their rights and those of their loved ones.
Every law should have to justify it's existence or face removal.
Of course the real world doesn't work that way.
It also doesn't help that you have far too many people happy to see mindless feel good measures that have no positive impact and many unintended negative consequences.
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Re: Ask why, not why not.
I'm pretty sure that most every law serves a useful purpose to *someone*, even if only lawyers.
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war on drugs is a FALIURE. If there was ever a deserved F, it is the war on drugs.
Instead of trying to keep people from buying cold medicine and having police search through data to 'find suspicion' we should setup a system where using is legal and controlled.
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Well, you already do share it with those who escape detection, as well as alcoholics, those on other legal but equally intoxicating drugs, those with mental instabilities and people who plain just can't drive... Want to stay 100% safe on the roads? Get yourself off them.
"You could take the same principles and apply them to other societal parasites, such as the multi-DUI convicted, innocent bystander-killing drunkards and losers, and whatever other dregs of the world you can dredge up."
Not to defend anything here, but I can almost certainly name hundreds if not thousands of current and former drug users who are more successful than you.
I wish some people would stop seeing the world in black and white, stop assuming that "drug user" = crackhead and maybe insert some actual intelligent debate into this issue. Some of the richest people in your country are drug addicts, and some of the people rotting in prison haven't done anything worse than cultivate naturally growing plants...
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modest_Proposal
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
Yeah, he typed the phrase "a modest proposal", which I should have noticed, but Swift was a long time ago, and most such posters are not trying to be satirical. At the risk of overreacting, I do tend to address points like this because some people would take this sort of thing seriously.
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You are aware that you already share the road with these people, right?
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Your argument is STUPIDITY, and all of those things could happen if the person in question was NOT a drug user!
Your 'societal parasites' argument is also moot, because jackasses like yourself LOVE to use to in order to refer to people who are living their lives in a way that you dislike, when they are usually working as hard or HARDER than you do!
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However when they did so those who were cooking Methaqualone just switched to Methamphetamine manufacture instead...
You are correct, the "right" way to handle this is through legalisation, regulation and enforcement, for a case study look at prohibition.
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No, it has been a stellar success. You just don't understand the true purpose.
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Illegal Drugs = Big money = Dangerous
Its pure economics. Supply and demand - there's a demand for drugs, when they're legal, there's plenty of supply and the price is low. When they're illegal, they're harder to get and the price is high, making the dealers of illegal drugs rich. Then the rich drug dealer protects their investment with guns and violence.
Making meth illegal doesn't stop people driving around high on meth. It does however increase gang violence, and the ability of gangs to fund themselves.
Someone was saying that these laws are well intentioned - who cares? Communists are well intentioned also, but just because something sounds nice doesn't mean it's practical or would work in any way.
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Re: Illegal Drugs = Big money = Dangerous
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To Stalin's apologists.
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Re: To Stalin's apologists.
Slogans are often quite different from reality.
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Re: Illegal Drugs = Big money = Dangerous
That's king of hard to say since it's never been actually done.
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Here is a thought
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We have tried prohibition and it's time to realize it's a RESOUNDING FAILURE and move on towards legalization.
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You know alot of them are taking steroids.
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You know alot of them are taking steroids."
Doesn't work that way. The watchers hate to be watched.
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same question
Anybody know why we allow government to collect information on drugs in the first place? Spare me on the war on drugs.
copied from
Free Speech vs. Medical Privacy Hits The Supreme Court
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The real Oregon stats
http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/NEWSRL/news/04_05_2010_2009_drug_death_stats.shtml
The supposed huge drops in "incidents" are from a news paper that's notorious for its questionable stats when reporting on the subject.
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A related side-note
Mississippi recently enacted the "prescription for Aleve Cold and Sinus" law too.
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pseudafedrine laws ga
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