Sony Continues To Attack PS3 Jailbreakers: Threatens To Cut Them Off From PlayStation Network

from the going-to-war-with-your-fans dept

Thu, Feb 17th 2011 3:32am — Mike Masnick

It's difficult to fathom what folks at Sony's PlayStation group are thinking with their ongoing war against the jailbreaking of the PS3. People did this to replace features that Sony itself had promised -- but deleted -- and the company's response now is to go to war with its users. The latest is that the company is threatening to permanently block any jailbroken PS3 from the PlayStation Network. Yes, it's true that such jailbroken devices can also be used for unauthorized games, but Sony is simply jumping to a huge conclusion that anyone who jailbreaks a PS3 is doing that. Of course, all this is really doing is reminding a lot of people why they shouldn't by a PS3 or other Sony products in the future. Why pay for products where Sony can disable features that it promotes, and then cut you off from additional services if you try to re-enable those features. Who would ever trust that company again?

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Filed Under: jailbreak, ps3
Companies: sony

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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:01am

Sony is simply jumping to a huge conclusion that anyone who jailbreaks a PS3 is doing that.

If you live with the dogs, you get fleas. If you choose to jailbreak your PS3, you have chosen not to be part of the online community. Those of us who play online appreciate that a company like Sony has the guts to stand up for honest people.

Who would ever trust that company again?

Clearly you hate Sony, and hate their actions. But their actions really shows that they have the integrity of their overall game play experience at heart.

If I wanted a computer, I would buy a computer. I bought the PS3 to play games, not to turn it into a video server or make it part of the supercomputer. The online angle is a valuable part of the gaming experience.
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- John Doe, 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:04am
  
  Re:
  Sony has integrity? They disabled a feature on the PS3 that you bought maybe in part because it had that feature. How is that showing integrity? If you bought a Ferrari V12 with 500 hp and they suddenly disabled 4 of the cylinders would you be defending them? Nope, didn't think so.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - paperbag (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:12am
    
    Re: Re:
    And if you found someone online who was able to re-enable the 4 cylinders, but by doing so Ferrari said you wouldn't be able to drive on interstates or other main highways.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:02am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      not quite. You bought the Ferrari under the agreement that you could only drive on 'Sony' roads if you didn't tamper with it.
      
      Then after tampering with it, they banned you from driving on 'Sony' roads. You broke your agreement, they rescinded theirs. Nothing to see here, move on.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:23am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Where do you get this agreement crap from? No one agreed to any of that crap. Sony sold us this stuff under the false pretense that being able to use Other OSes AND being able to play PS3 games were both features of the PS3. That was the agreement. They are not both features of the PS3 anymore, thus the agreement was broken.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:41am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I will admit I don't own a PS3 or any gaming console.
        
        You're claiming there is *no* license agreement screen? I find that extremely hard to believe...
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:52am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I'm sure there was one when the kid first set the thing up, that doesn't mean anyone agrees to it just because Sony says they do. You are talking about those "If you press X you agree to give us 50 million bucks per day for the next 40 years" (or whatever they say I have never read one) right? Well they aren't agreements because people don't agree to them. Money has already changed hands by that point, you are under duress, underage, there are no witnesses, no signature, no understanding of the terms, but most of all: pushing X doesn't mean you agree just because Sony says it does.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:05am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        So if there's no agreement, what are you complaining about? Sony hasn't violated anything if there's no agreement about usability.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:08am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        The sale is seperate. If that "40 million bucks per day" were actually agreed to as part of the purchase (like providing the advertised product for my 500$ is), that would be a different story, but it isn't.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:28am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        The sale is separate. The agreement is not about the machine it is about using Sony's network. You're saying Sony can't dictate how people use *its* network?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:32am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Well, connecting to the network and being able to play your PS3 games online was one of the advertised features on the box too. Basically any way you look at it, you can't get the what you paid for.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:43am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        *but*, I'm not mostly really so pissed about the online part. The real problem is that they require updates that remove the Other OSes feature just to play games at all (being able to play PS3 games is an important feature). To get the Other OSes capability, you must actually sacrifice pretty much *all* the other advertised features (permenantly, there is no going back). There is no way to obtain the features that were used to sell me the product anymore. Also, I didn't have a choice anyway, mine was just updated automajically one day and there is no going back.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:27am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        And you don't think that not modifying your hardware was part of that 'agreement'?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:33am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        It was a sale not an agreement. The only part I automatically consider my responsibility is to pay the asked price, and I consider it the companies responsiblity to at least put an honest effort into providing what they say they will for that price. Certainly at least to not put an effort into removing what they said they would provide!
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 3:13pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        See, your mistake is assuming that is an outright sale. You bought the hardware, you licensed the operating system, the firmware, and the like.
        
        If you don't want to lose your OS switching rights, don't update your PS3. Just don't put it online either, because without the update, you cannot play on the network because your machine is not secure against game tampering.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 3:22pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        umm.. no, it was a sale of a packaged product. I didn't license anything and I don't care how their product delivers on their promises as long as it does (or makes an honest effort).
        I really don't understand how anyone things not updating helps anything. If I don't update, I lose the other features that I was sold so that obviously doesn't help in any way.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 3:32pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        To clarify, I wasn't sold a product that was advertized as "it doesn't do fuck all" and then went and licensed some OS that makes it do something. That isn't what happened at all. They are packaged together and sold as a product.
        
        The product I bought actually does say that it has features. It's right on the box. I have no interest in licensing their OS. What would I do with it? They can make copies of their OS themselves.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:45am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        No, it's not. At least not in the United States. Check out a thing called first sale doctrine.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        btr1701 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:15pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        > And you don't think that not
        > modifying your hardware was
        > part of that 'agreement'?
        
        The same way I thought being able to use features that Sony advertised was part of the agreement.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Phillip Vector (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:29am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        But in this case, all highways and freeways are owned by Sony.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:42am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        No they are not. The 'Ferrari' was only ever able to drive on Sony roads. That doesn't mean there aren't other roads available
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:56am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Actually, when it was sold it was able to drive on all roads, then they snuck in in the middle of the night and modified it to only drive on Sony roads (for my own good of course).
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:16am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Can the PS3 access the internet without accessing the PS3 network? Can I install my own browser?
        
        Can it work without that network?
        
        Can I go into the boot startup like a regular computer?
        
        Can I modify the startup sequence of apps?
        
        Can I change priority of processes via task manager?
        
        if not, then it wasn't able 'drive' on 'all' roads
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:28am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Not anymore, but when it was purchased one of the features was that you were allowed to install your own operating system, which means you could do all those things with it. (You would have to code them yourself or find an OS that had the capability, but that's no biggie of course)
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:37am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        According to another poster here, a choice was made. PS3 users could keep the OS option you mention *or* keep using the device on the PS3 network since it now required a firmware upgrade.
        
        If that is true, I rest my case. People were still fully able to do what they wanted, but not that AND use Sony's network.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:44am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        There is one of those "press X" agreements that the kid pushed X to.. I wouldn't call it a choice exactly.. Once X is pushed, you are hooped.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:49am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Even if there were an informed choice (looking back retrospectively) the choice would be to have other OSes and give up the ability to use the PS3 for anything else, which is not what they sold people at all.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:35am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        According to another poster here, a choice was made. PS3 users could keep the OS option you mention *or* keep using the device on the PS3 network since it now required a firmware upgrade.
        
        If that is true, I rest my case. People were still fully able to do what they wanted, but not that AND use Sony's network.
        
        I can't tell if you are being intentionally obtuse or just stupid.
        
        First, you get cut off from more than "the Sony network", you basically can't use any of the PS3s features besides the "other OS" option if you choose not to update. No new games, no BlueRay.
        
        Second, any reasonable reading of consumer protection laws would allow PS3 owners to file a class action lawsuit against Sony (which some have already started). This is essentially a form of bait and switch where the consumer was promised one product at a specific price but later sold a lesser product at the same (or a higher) price.
        
        There really is nothing to discuss here, what Sony has done is both a terrible business decision and probably illegal. I can only hope that a class action suit moves forward and Sony is ultimately held responsible for their actions.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - btr1701 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:12pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        > You bought the Ferrari under the agreement
        > that you could only drive on 'Sony' roads
        > if you didn't tamper with it.
        
        Don't forget, the features Sony originally promoted and sold the product under were also part of that agreement.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - BoxerDog, 28 Feb 2012 @ 8:05am
    
    Re: Re:
    hear hear
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Richard (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:15am
  
  Re:
  But their actions really shows that they have the integrity of their overall game play experience at heart.
  
  There are better ways to do that. After all plenty of companies offer online gaming to computer owners. If that is their real motivation Sony are being lazy.
  
  No - what they are really trying to do is to maintain a stupid business model where the console is sold at a loss and they make the money back on the games. Frankly I think that tactic should be illegal. If they sold their hardware at an honest price in the first place they would have no need for this behaviour.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:56am
  
  Re:
  Integrity? You are obviously a Sony shill or you wouldn't claim that Sony has integrity. A company with integrity would never remove features, even though it only affects a small percentage of PS3 users. See, integrity means you are reliable, trustworthy and honest.
  
  Sony went back on their word regarding the alternate OS feature. Pretty much the opposite of integrity.
  
  And now there's rumors of a rootkit being added to the PS3. Integrity is just a word to Sony.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Spaceboy (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:59am
    
    Re: Re:
    Above comment is mine.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:52am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Integrity of Sony is different from the integrity of the online experience. If it's jailbroken, is it really hard to imagine that they can modify the game code to have advantages over others on the network?
      
      Sony is perfectly within their rights to do this, baring the legalese of the TOU but that rarely 'grants' you rights.
      
      It's dumb, stupid and all kinds of boneheaded, but this is what you get when you buy into a closed system. They make the rules and you can abide by them or be shut out.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - David Liu (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:31am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I'm pretty sure that people were hacking long before the PS3 was jailbroken.
        
        Case in point: Call of Duty MW1&2 and Black Ops all had hackers and cheaters online. Treyarch may blame the "insecurity" of the platform, but the fact is that games were hacked long before the jailbreak came out.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:27am
  
  Re:
  "If you chose to jailbreak your PS3, you have chosen not to be part of the online community." No, we've chosen to restore a feature that was taken from us without warning and that was used as a selling point when the units first came out. Maybe people that don't demand this feature back and demand that Sony never change their hardware again are choosing not to be a part of a consumer community that understands that businesses answer to consumers not the other way around.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:27am
    
    Re: Re:
    And you have also chosen to add the feature to play backup games, which.... Oh, yeah.... is part and parcel and protected under numerous laws, DMCA notwithstanding.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Spectere (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:58am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      I can do the exact same thing by jailbreaking my iPod Touch, yet that's legal.
      
      What's your point, again?
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:10am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Jail breaking your PS3 is perfectly legal. Sony is trying to claim its not but that will settle out eventually. Apple said the same things about their devices being jail broken immediately.
        
        The issue here is whether or not the provider of a network is legally entitled to block devices from their network that have been tampered with. Apple is being smarter and tolerating it because more people will use their network than if they crack down. They have not been so nice about iTunes hacks.
        
        Tivo does the same thing...to a point. They fully accept all the modifications people make except hacking into the guide data. That they hit and hit hard on because its part of the revenue stream.
        
        What if these jail broken PS3's provided an ability to cheat at the online experience. Most comments here suggest it is possible though rare (I honestly don't know). Now imagine it gets out that people can and are cheating on the PS3 network. Wouldn't that cause some rule following people to choose another network? I know I don't want to play with cheaters, do you?
        
        So the integrity of the online experience is important because its about the reputation people expect. This is quite different than the reputation of the company providing the network.
        
        Sony sucks, I don't buy their stuff if I can help it. But complaining because Sony is protecting their assets at your expense when you modified your device is pretty weak.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:26am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Why is it weak to complain? They lied, I bought and got scammed. Everyone should know they are scammers. I will shout it from the rooftops.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:02am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        "Everyone should know they are scammers."
        
        You didn't know this about Sony previously?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:15am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        obviously not or I wouldn't try to buy anything from them.. Why would you buy from someone you know will scam you? :)
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:55am
    
    Re: Re:
    You agreed to abide by Sony's rules. Which I'm quite sure include the phrase "We may change these rules at any time".
    
    The moral of the story is don't by closed systems from companies with very poor record of respecting their customers.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:32am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      "You agreed to abide by Sony's rules."
      Don't be ridiculous. People don't agree to things just because Sony says they do you know.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - pixelpusher220 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:25am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        You're saying that anyone should be able to do anything when using someone *else's* network? So after you invite me to your place of work I can come to your office and not abide by your rules? And you shouldn't be able to kick me out because of that?
        
        You're saying that even though I bought a cell phone, I shouldn't have to abide by the carriers rules about that phone when I use their network?
        
        Apple/AT&T are being intelligent by not prohibiting jail broken phones, but that doesn't mean they aren't within their rights to stop modified devices from using their network.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:38am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        As stated several times, it doesn't just effect the network. Get with the program.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:37pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        If you are selling me access to your network, then you tell me upfront if there's anything you don't want me doing in it. If you later realize that you messed up and some of the things we agreed I could do could be leveraged to do stuff you don't want me to, then you don't get to change the agreement partway through.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:47am
  
  Re:
  Really? People who jailbreak are dishonest? Last I knew it was legal and is not a guarantee that it will be used for heinous purposes.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Michael Long (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:09am
    
    Re: Re:
    Actually, the Copyright Office stated that jailbreaking doesn't violate the DMCA, not that it's "legal".
    
    It may not be a DMCA violation, but may still be a breach of Sony's TOS, especially as it applies to their online network.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- hegemon13, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:02am
  
  Re:
  "...honest people..."
  
  Why is it your immediate assumption that people who want to use a PS3 for other software are inherently dishonest?
  
  Personally, I have no interest in a gaming system, no matter what the cost of games. I just don't have time for games anymore.
  
  On the other hand, if the jailbreak meant that I could load XBMC or Boxee on the PS3's awesome hardware, I would buy one instead of the HTPC I am planning. And guess what? I might just end up buying a game or two down the line if I already have the hardware.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:16am
  
  Aaaannnd...
  ...you all just got trolled.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:37am
  
  Re:
  " If you choose to jailbreak your PS3, you have chosen not to be part of the online community."
  Where do you get this ridiculous idea from? They sold it to me because they promised the PS3 would have the capability of using other OSes AND the other features promised. The pretense with which they scammed me certainly did not claim that using the other OSes would prevent the PS3 from ever being able to function as a PS3 again. It's complete and utter fraud. There is no defense. I most certainly did not choose to not be a part of the online community, I was forced out for believing Sony's fraudulent claims. Not a mistake that will ever happen again.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Ronald J Riley (profile), 18 Feb 2011 @ 3:54am
  
  Sony is Like Apple / Re:
  Both companies want to micro manage customers, mostly with the goal of milking them on an ongoing basis.
  
  One difference between Sony and Apple is that Sony makes many engineering screw ups, while Apple intentionally engineers crippled products.
  
  Mike Masnick most certainly has his had stuck where the daylight does not shine on patents, invention, and the economics of both but he is right about Sony. Sony is Style Without Substance. They are all about media hype and fail miserably on delivery of both reasonable products and service. Their service is a really bad joke.
  
  Ronald J. Riley,
  
  President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
  
  Other Affiliations:
  Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
  Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org
  President - Alliance for American Innovation
  Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
  Washington, DC
  Direct (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 9 pm EST.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- squiggle (profile), 23 Apr 2011 @ 10:47am
  
  Re: SONY HAS GUTS!!!!! yeah and they are falling out of their asses!!!!
  Well my little friend Anonymous Coward let me start by saying; bullsh*t.
  
  Back in 2009 Microsoft banned every flashed console from live: no court action was taken against anyone.
  
  Sony doesn't have the guts to stand up for honest people for the simple fact none of the Sony corporation are honest.
  
  If you don't believe me then check around, they're being very vague with details of times for so called "maintenance".
  
  I, for one, agree with the comments that the vast majority of people who 'jailbreaked' their consoles did so to reinstate features that sony promised, delivered the deleted.
  
  All they had to do was ban them from online play but no the b*stards got greedy. And its not like they need the money...
  
  When the Playstation 3 was announced I was really quite interested in it - but then after they held the launch back for two years so they could steal everyone else's' technology I decided to carry on my love for Xbox.
  
  Yes, I do have to pay �37 a year but, hey, at least when the network is down (which has been twice since I've been on Xbox which will be over 4 years) it is due to maintenance or because the servers are overloaded due to hype of a new game (Halo 3 and Black Ops are perfect examples).
  
  So you call sony honest? Defend that statement...
  
  In a console that has been created from everyone else's technology.
  
  Tell me what part of ps3 or the psn is original - blu-ray does not count because that is another companies product; and the only reason Xbox didn't have it was it was released when it was supposed to be.
  
  Other things I'd like you to think about;
  
  1. How many people will leave Sony now hackers have broken in so deep they've been able to see users details (addresses and bank details) and in reply to the can you ever trust sony again; if I found out hackers got into a worldwide company and got so deep they could see my address and bank details I wouldn't even buy toilet paper made by them!
  
  2. How long will it actually take for them to reinstate psn? (what you have to remember is it's going take time to rewrite a new security package then mega test it so this doesn't happen again.
  
  3. In this time will hardcore ps3 owners actually get sick of not playing online(imagine it took a month or so).
  
  4. (And this is the main one I want you to think about): how many games companies will abandon Sony now for exclusives - look how many Microsoft got off them when they held it back for two years.
  
  I will say tho that this is a mega blast against gaming and as I've been a part of that world for 22 years it is sad; however this is not acceptable and sony needs to start being honest.
  
  So, in closing - total bullsh*t
  
  Love from all Xbox users worldwide :D xx
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KnownHuman (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:11am

But they're losing money!
In fact, they've already lost at least $360. Because that's how much I spent on an Xbox 360 and a game instead of a PS3 and a game following the recent spat of Sony news.

It's not potential piracy that hurts sales, it's reaction to potential piracy that hurts sales.
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- cc (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:19am
  
  Re: But they're losing money!
  The two platforms are identical in that they HATE not being able to control their users, so I don't see how your conscientious buying made any difference.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:02am
    
    Re: Re: But they're losing money!
    When you buy a 360 it does what it says on the box. When Microsoft updates it, they add features instead of take them away. The 360 is much easier to hack then a PS3, but Microsoft doesn't try to sue everyone that even heard it was possible, they just do what they say in their TOS and ban the modded Xbox from XBL. I would rather go with a company that did what it said it would do instead of one that takes back what it said and then goes above and beyond to punish their users.
    
    So basically, KnownHuman is punishing a company that doesn't do what it said it would do and rewarding a company that does what it says it will do.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - cc (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:22am
      
      Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
      That's not what he said, but fair enough.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:29am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        Actually that's exactly what he said just a lot less verbosely.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        cc (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:28am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        Meh, whatever. I don't even own a console, so now you know how much I've been paying attention to the console wars 8)
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Terry W, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:06am
      
      Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
      But if you mod (hack/jailbreak) an Xbox360, Microsoft will ban you from Xbox Live, so I don't really see any real GAIN here?!?
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Berenerd (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:46am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        Xbox said from the beginning it would do this. You knew what you were getting. For many people the choice of going to the PS3 was that fact you could load alternate OS onto it and such. Sony without announcing so, turned this feature off with an update then stated that you need to buy new games not used ones because they don't make money on the console but the games they also made it so you can't play off backup copies of them which again was against what people bought it for. So now you have half the machine you bought and a company calling you a criminal if you want what you paid for.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Grimby, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:48am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        What the hell are you talking about. When did Sony say you couldn't play used games? Most of the games I own are used.
        Sony never allowed you to play backup copies of games either.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        The eejit (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:22am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        You've obviously not been following the DCUO debacle currently going on, where once the code in the PS3 game box is used, it can't be resold - AND there's no other way to get a PS3 key.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Keith (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:14am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        Sony never forced anyone to update their system. During the update Sony made it clear what was going to happen. If you wanted to keep the "other OS" feature you could.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Brendan (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:25am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        Yea, but then not have access to any games released after that point in time, since they require the new firmware to run -- even offline.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:39am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
        Don't forget, no access to BlueRays either.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - KnownHuman (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:19am
      
      Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
      Yup, didn't have time to write that out this morning, but that was my basic logic.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Confused, 19 Aug 2012 @ 8:35pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: But they're losing money!
      So you praise a Microsoft that bans an xbox from XBL and bash on Playstation for doing the same thing?
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Tails, 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:59am
  
  Re: But they're losing money!
  So your logic was to leave a console that initially supported Linux (and only removed it because of a hacking attempt) for a console that never supported Linux and A console that bans accounts (allowing you to create a new account and go back online) for a console that bans the entire console (forcing you to buy a new one/never go online again).
  
  Sony is taking things a bit far (Moreso with the trail than the bannings), but MS has/will be worse.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Chargone (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 2:03pm
  
  Re: But they're losing money!
  fun fact (or maybe rumour. someone might want to check this):
  the 360 has fuses in it that can be remotely blown after an update, preventing reversal of said update.
  
  blowing ALL of them will brick your system. not that they've actually done that yet.
  
  is that better or worse than what sony's up to?
  no clue. both suck.
  
  it'd be nice if the various game companies who make GOOD games for the consoles and don't screw over their customers (these do actually exist, surprisingly) weren't generally stuck working with such utter scum as the people who think this kind of thing is a good idea.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- s.a.d. steelers all day, 7 Sep 2011 @ 6:08am
  
  Re: But they're losing money!
  A ps3 is awsome I want to jailbreak my ps3 because Sony is the best company out there better than xbox better than Wii I no every thing about a playstation people who no are new to the game Pittsburgh steelers are the best team out there if yall want to talk to me because I will no everbe back on
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- s.a.d. steelers all day, 7 Sep 2011 @ 6:09am
  
  Re: But they're losing money!
  A ps3 is awsome I want to jailbreak my ps3 because Sony is the best company out there better than xbox better than Wii I no every thing about a playstation people who no are new to the game Pittsburgh steelers are the best team out there if yall want to talk to me because I will no ever be back on this site in ps3 my name is steelerssouperss
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- s.a.d. steelers all day, 7 Sep 2011 @ 6:11am
  
  Re: But they're losing money!
  A ps3 is awsome I want to jailbreak my ps3 because Sony is the best company out there better than xbox better than Wii I no every thing about a playstation people who no are new to the game Pittsburgh steelers are the best team out there if yall want to talk to me because I will no ever be back on this site and on ps3 my name is steelerssouperss or send me an email on yahoo my name is Lil.Weezy 10@yahoo.com
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:35am

They also disabled the backwards compatibility for PS2 games...so I have to buy new copies? No thank you. I'm done with Sony.
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- Grimby, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:51am
  
  Re:
  They didn't disable this feature, they discontinued it in newer models. Two very different things.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Chargone (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 2:07pm
    
    Re: Re:
    ... might want to double check that they didn't do both, of course.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - BearGriz72 (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:50pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Actually they did, they pushed a firmware update that killed the feature even in the older consoles.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
krusty-g (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:41am

Common Agruments
I've been "debating" this with a few Sony apologists, and they've got a few staples they keep falling back on, so if we are going to discuss this can we agree this is about Sony punishing those who "jailbreak" their PS3 and not:
1) Stopping piracy: A potential follow on, but not part of this debate
2) Stopping cheats: Again, maybe a possible follow on, but cheats have managed to mod save filed and use other methods prior to this
If you can keep it on topic then I am very interested to see why you think these actions are acceptable.
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- Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:32am
  
  Re: Common Agruments
  I'll be blunt, I don't think it's acceptable.
  
  The whole 'stopping piracy' argument is a farce, because the fact is that most of the people who Sony would love to label 'pirates' wouldn't have bought the actual game in question because it is a dross game and/or the price is too high for their pocketbooks.
  Add in the people who are just playing backup games and/or loading things to the hard drive so that they do not have to have an easily scratched disk in the drive, and piracy is a wash.
  
  Stopping cheats? This will NOT stop cheats in the slightest. They tried 'stopping cheats' on various networks with software like CheatBuster and guess what? It was easy to get around and send a signal saying "ALL IS NORMAL!" to the server.
  Stopping cheats is better to have the servers looking for abnormal behaviors.... like someone gets shot and no damage is recorded, or someone is jumping from place to place in a map instantaneously.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:48am
    
    Re: Re: Common Agruments
    Apparently I'm in the minority, but I would say both are completely irrelevent. They made their choice on how they handle both these issues already when they released and included the feature. They could change their mind for the PS4 and still maintain a measure of integrity, but backing out now on what they already sold to people because they regret their decision to include it is completely inexcusable.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:59am

Not the Playstation Network?
But what of Home and my carelessly slapped together avatar? How will I be able to fill my virtual loft with... well, whatever it is that's available to fill it with? I assume it must be some pretty good stuff, possibly even costing real money.

Does this also mean I won't have the privilege of downloading old episodes of that ridiculous game tester reality show? Clearly I'm reeling here from this one-two punch.

Perhaps they'll see the error of their ways when the money stops rolling in from downloadable content and games only available on the PSN. Nothing like treating potential customers like thieves, especially when you yourself put your company in this position through greedy and vindictive actions. It's worked well for the rest of the entertainment industry.
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Tech Guy in IN, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:00am

Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
Sony has been pissed since they lost the VHS / Betamax wars!

Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony), anyone that thinks differently is just plain wrong. Maybe you have forgotten about Sony and their MALWARE that they embedded in Audio CD's back in the 90's, that allowed people to take over your computer.

BluRay - Another big Sony play that did nothing but lock down HD DVD's, Now I can't even legally watch a BluRay DVD on Linux without violating the DMCA. That was not for anything as noble as the people it was so they could line their pockets with more licensing fees for Bluray. So I don't by BluRay disc, there are VERY few that are encoded with significantly better resolution than a DVD anyway.

Now the PS3 crap. The only reason I bought a PS3 is to run Linux (to make a Media device) for my HDTV. They can take every product they ever make and stick it I will NEVER buy ANYTHING Sony again.

Since Apple lost in court and the court ruled it was not illegal to Jailbreak an iPhone, I am waiting for the lawsuits against Sony.

The Un-holy Trinity, in no particular order, Sony, Apple, and Microsoft. In my opinion all are evil. Yes I am stuck with Micro$oft for some things at work, but I avoid them when I can. At home Microsoft is BANNED. No M$ OS on PC's, phones or anything else. Apple is BANNED! Now we can add Sony to the list.

Stop being lemmings. Just because everyone else has PS3, or iPhone or runs Windows, doesn't mean you have too.

It doesn't matter what you are talking about Open wins over closed any day of the week. Sometimes it takes years for that to prove out, but it is quite true.
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- Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:34am
  
  Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
  The only lemming here is you for banning two of the best companies on the planet (Microsoft and Apple) from your home.
  
  Sheer asinine stupidity is what that is.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:43am
    
    Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
    Those are lame companies. All they want to do is control everything when you can have freedom if you use something else.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Berenerd (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:53am
  
  Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
  http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1938055
  
  I want an Iphone 4....
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- a person, 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:02am
  
  Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
  wow,your life sucks if u ban stuff in your house from companies that don't even care about an irrelevant nutjob like you.seriously,you americans are all stupid,from were im from we support sony & other companies,we don't spend the entire day complaining in the parent's basement,like you(like sony would care about what a 40 year old loser like you has to say) .the ps3 belongs to sony,it doesn't matter if u bought it,its THEIR system,THEY own it,if it wasn't for THEM it wouldn't exist.just buy the stuff,if you don't like it,buy from others,don't complain about it,cuz your a nobody & no one cares about your "opinion",DEAL WITH IT.people were stupid before the internet,but the internet made them more stupid & more egotistical than before.fuck america,japan rules.everything japanese is better than anything american,thats a fact.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:38am
    
    Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
    I don't hate Sony because they are Japanese, I hate them because they lied to me and completely scammed me out of my money. I support companies with honor.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - el_segfaulto (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:23am
    
    Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
    It's snowing pretty bad where I am, so thank you to the troll for warming up the tubes. Saying Sony is a Japanese company is asinine to say the least. They are a multinational corporation and your completely IDIOTIC patriotism disgusts me as much as that of my own countrymen (I'm an American). Take your nationalism and cram it up your Sony hole.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - a person, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:38pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
      im not a troll,u fag,u are(since u decided to answer to me).and sony is primarly japanese(they are multinational secondary),your obviously a retard who doesn't understand policies/companies & anything in general.and your the one with idiotic patriotism,not me(i know the good things in life,u don't)& u can't tell me what to do,u irrelevant piece of shit,but i can tell u what to do,cuz im better than u(for example:GO FUCK YOURSELF,MOTHERFUCKING FAG TROLL)& u obviously like things stuck in your hole(not me)so i suggest u take your fag daddy dick & stuck in your asshole,faggot.i do whatever i want & can say whatever i want(but u can't,so shut the fuck up,fag kid)and the same thing goes to "anonymous coward"u fag can't tell me anything,u don't even know me,but i can tell u what to do,go suck a cock,u motherfucking irrelevant fag."send me to camp"plz fag,shut the fuck up,u know nothing,& i can say whatever i want,u can't,irrelevant motherfucker.ps:sony is the best
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - el_segfaulto (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:01pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
        I seriously doubt there is anything I could say to make you look more idiotic and juvenile than your incoherent rant. I do want to thank you for giving me and my officemates a good laugh. If you're not a troll or over the age of 12 then by your previous post I can only infer that you are a few chromosomes short of a full deck, and if this is the case I apologize for being so mean to one of society's "special people".
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - G Thompson (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:04pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
        See...
        
        This is why I want a "troll alert" button.
        
        Oh and "a person" might want to really WATCH and understand this:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk
        
        (original found here: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting )
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anon the Reply and bumps u old threads, 25 Sep 2016 @ 5:32pm
        
        so much Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
        UMADBRO??
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:41am
    
    Re: Re: Sony is not standing up for anyone (except Sony)
    everything japanese is better than anything american
    
    Don't make me send you to camp.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
John Duncan Yoyo, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:02am

Has anyone sued in the US for disabling an advertised feature?
I know that Sony has been sued in Europe for disabling an advertised feature but has it happened in the US yet. I would think that they could lose on this one.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- G Thompson (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:34pm
  
  Re: Has anyone sued in the US for disabling an advertised feature?
  There is a current Class action (actually 5 of them that have been joined) against Sony over the removal of the 'Other OS' in the USA.
  
  [ http://www.ps3news.com/PlayStation-3/class-action-lawsuit-filed-against-sony-for-ps3-3-21-update/ ]
  
  Also this story by arstechnica talks about the joining of the actions [ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/07/sony-now-facing-single-class-action-for-ps3-other-os-remo val-action-in-ps3-other-os-removal.ars ]
  
  Sony's motion to dismiss talked about here [ http://gamepolitics.com/2010/09/21/scea-files-motions-dismiss-039other-os039-lawsuit ]
  
  What happened after the November hearing (looking at Sony's motion to dismiss and motion to strike) can be seen here [ http://www.atariage.com/forums/blog/7/entry-7457-ps3-otheros-class-action-update/ ]
  
  The actual Docket reports, and unsealed filings can be seen here
  http://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/3:2010cv01811/226894/
  
  Interestingly the Judge for this matter is the Hon Richard Seeborg is the exact same Judge that was first assigned in Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC v. Hotz et al and was then reassigned, after Seeborg recused himself, to the Hon Susan Illston due to the class action above.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
J, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:02am

Have to say that while I don't technically agree with Sony's decision on this then I can at least understand it.

The majority of people buying the PS3 won't be interested in using Homebrew on their machines, it's only really the internet geeks (like myself) out there that would even know about it if it wasn't for the mass media attention this has somehow attracted.

Personally I think the PS3 does more than enough already, it plays my games, my blu-rays, allows me to stream media from my PC and has recently added things such as Love Film in the UK, has the free to use Vid-Zone for music, has the TV catchup options and theres more to come - At no extra cost, sure they've removed one feature from the console but they've also added a whole lot to it since launch - Again, for free.

The homebrew situation seems to be a case of a few ruining it for the majority, it's all well and good to say that they are tarring everyone with the same brush when it comes to the Piracy issues, but it's going to happen .. Fact .. Sony saw that with the PSP and the machine never really got the attention it deserved from developers from that happening. Cheats are already coming in on CoD that sees these people modding the game to give them an unfair advantage and there's talk of a program released that will unlock the Trophies for the games as well (TBF thats possible now for some titles).

I'd much rather have my PS3 gaming enviornment safe and sound than risk my favourite games been ruined with aimbots, unlimited health / ammo cheats or even some other kind of game modding - It's the very reason I choose to game on PS3 rather than the 360 or the PC where it is already rife.

The only thing I would object to is the introduction of DRM which has been touted as a possible soloution to the problem as we all know that doesn't work and generally more of a pain for legitimate buyers rather than the pirates who will simply remove it before distribution.

I'm pretty sure that if you read the PS3 manual there is a clause that says that SONY have the right to add or remove features as they see fit (most things like this do) so anyone that is crying about this should perhaps pay more attention to what they are signing up for in the future.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:33am
  
  Re:
  You hit it.
  
  The majority of people buying the PS3 won't be interested in using Homebrew on their machines, it's only really the internet geeks (like myself) out there that would even know about it if it wasn't for the mass media attention this has somehow attracted.
  
  The issue here is the vocal minority (those who want to hack their machines) are drowning out the masses, the people who really just want a great game playing experience, maybe a decent blu-ray player, and want to enjoy their product for what it is, as is.
  
  This whole story smacks of what happens when a small but vocal group takes over a story and runs with it. It is actually pretty shameful.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:36am
    
    Re: Re:
    Small? Hardly. There are a lot of people who jailbreak their gaming devices to play backed-up games, which they have bought on sale or as 'testers' from a store, so that they don't have to have the easily-scratched disc in the drive all the time.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - lol this is bs, 25 Oct 2013 @ 6:15pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      WOw now this is bs i work in a video game rental store ps3 games are hard to scratch unlike the xbox or wii so the back up argument does not work here!!!
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:38am
    
    Re: Re:
    Because if you want to the store and they scammed a small minority of their customers out of $1 each, it's acceptable. For that minority to then complain and for those complaints to make it on the news and make the store look bad is shameful of the minority, not the store.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:38am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      went *
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:08am
    
    Re: Re:
    So it's ok because the people who were scammed are not the majority of PS3 users? Why is it shameful? Are you saying these people who were completely scammed out of their money should not be allowed to tell people because they are a minority?
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 3:16pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Explain again how they were "scammed" out of a software option they never used.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 3:41pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        huh?
        1) They don't need to have already used it to be scammed out of it, maybe they just bought it on the premise that they would be able to use it later
        2) What makes you think no one ever used it? Thats ridiculous.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Spectere (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:25am
  
  Re:
  Regardless of whether you ever intended to use the Other OS feature, you can't deny that a company being permitted to remove features from a product after its release sets a very bad precedent.
  
  In terms of you wanting a good gaming experience, please note that the situation has gotten far, far worse since Sony axed Other OS. I don't know whether people were just generally content with a vendor-supported feature for installing an alternative OS or if the system was truly secure enough thwart hackers (which I very much doubt), but a majority of this crap happened post-3.21. This series of incidents did nothing more than paint a giant bullseye on the PS3.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:46am
  
  Re:
  "Personally I think the PS3 does more than enough already"
  
  That's not the point. If a car company advertised a car with 100 features, they can't later, without warning, disable one of those features after the car has been sold under the pretext that it does enough already. If they told you ahead of time, before you bought the car, that features might arbitrarily be disabled in the future then it might be somewhat more acceptable.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Grimby, 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:07am
    
    Re: Re:
    If the locks were broken on your car, would you not hope the company would have a recall to fix it?
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:42am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Not if they are going to steal the fricken custom muffler, rims, engine I put in and make it so I can never put anything custom on it again. I'll fix the damn lock myself thank you very much.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - amused, 19 Aug 2012 @ 9:02pm
    
    Re: Re:
    You have heard of " Price may change without notice"? When you agreed to the user endlic for the PSn and PS3 you choose to say ok you can do with this system as you please. They got rid of the compatibility probably for the fact that the PS2 and 1 Games were obsolete or caused an issue with the saved game utility.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- jake, 29 Jan 2015 @ 10:07am
  
  Re:
  But when you buy PS3 you are paying for that feature that is going to be removed. It's like buying a chocolate tablet with 20 pieces for 4$ and then you only have 15 but still you paid 4$ for 20 pieces not 15 a good example of this is Milka chocolate there's a new tablet that you buy for the same price as others and there is one piece missing
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
cc (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:06am

I'm wondering, does anyone know how Sony can detect a jailbroken device?

Is it some sort of firmware integrity test that is invoked remotely, perhaps? If so, can't the integrity test itself be overridden with custom code that always reports "A-OK"?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:32am
  
  Re:
  It's one of the two things:
  
  1. They can't. I'm in this camp.
  
  2. They can but only through some code that was introduced in an update. If this is the case then yes custom code could be written to circumvent Sony's code.
  
  Anything created by science can be circumvented by science.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Spaceboy (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:39am
    
    Re: Re:
    There are rumors of a rootkit in the latest PS3 update. If true this will allow Sony to execute code on the PS3 remotely, without your knowledge. If they have that ability then they can detect jailbroken PS3's by running a program and examining the results. If they get the wrong results they can block your PS3.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:01am
  
  Re:
  There are some simple ways:
  
  1 - On connection, check to see what is running on the machine, and it's memory size / file size. If things don't add up, you have an issue.
  
  2 - Check for access using the "exploit" itself. If they can access certain features that should be blocked off that way, then they know it has been played with.
  
  3 - force check to make sure it is reading from the blu-ray rather than the hard drive. Also, check the hard drive for the current game file.
  
  4 - Check the file count in the boot area to make sure there are no additional files located there.
  
  There are plenty of ways. Even a few bytes difference is a big deal. MD5 or bytecheck the files, and see what you get.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - cc (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:25am
    
    Re: Re:
    That's my point. The only way to check any of those things is to actually run code on the machine, so perhaps there's a way to crack the firmware to always give Sony the expected result.
    
    Of course, they could go to their older methods and try to install a rootkit... but I don't know how well that's going to go down with everyone.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:11am

Is there a user/hacker created alternative to the PlayStation Network, yet? There should be.
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Erniedog (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:18am

Busted PS3 after Update
I take it that many of you forgot what happened after the 3.0 update?
Well it crashed thousands of the BluRay drives and what does Sony do? They deny until the problem makes headlines (on techdirt too) and then they make us pay $150.00 to have them fixed.

I prefer PS3 over xBox but They reap what they sow.
What goes around, comes around.
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- Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:37am
  
  Re: Busted PS3 after Update
  That is illegal, and a class-action lawsuit should have been filed against Sony for that.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:37am

"Of course, all this is really doing is reminding a lot of people why they shouldn't by a PS3 or other Sony products in the future."

Sony products suck in general anyway. They do lots of rebranding, or slightly modify competitor's PCB design to make them their own. It's 100% legal but that says alot about the company. You pay for a name, and now that name isn't worth much anymore...
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TriZz (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:47am

XBox
Microsoft does the same thing...sorta. I had a "jailbroken" 360 awhile ago...and once XBL figured it out, they banned my serial number from XBL.

"Jailbroken" gaming consoles also allow for omega cheating in online games. I remember playing XBL with Halo 2 and people would come into the game, morph into a dinosaur and eat everyone!
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- Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:39am
  
  Re: XBox
  In that case, they should have focused on ONLY banning the people who were cheating by having their software look for 'strange' actions like that character morphing.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:54am

Jailbreaking the PS3 and PSP can be used for non-theft reasons such as homebrew or emulators but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people who jailbreak these things do it to either be able to play stolen games or cheat online. All you have to do is look at my local online classified sites to see dozens of people offering to hack your console and wait for it...they usually entice you in with an offer to give you a stack of free stolen games with it.

I don't believe jailbreaking should be illegal and I think Sony is stupid for suing GeoHot. But I'm sorry, using a jailbroken console has real potential to damage the online experience for those of us who chose to pay for our games. If you want to jailbreak your PS3 for legitimate purposes, go nuts but then you don't get to play online with those of us that don't. If you don't like it, blame the scumbags who jailbreak to avoid paying for games. You don't get to have it both ways.
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- Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:40am
  
  Re:
  Sorry, but you are stereotyping there. You have no real hard numbers that show that people are jailbreaking to play stolen games or cheat online as the majority.
  
  Basically.... you are spouting out your ass and expecting people to believe you.... I don't.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:34am
    
    Re: Re:
    OK, go the other way, You produce numbers that show people are NOT jailbreaking to play stolen games or cheat. Of course you will just come up with a report written by a cheater.
    
    Basically...you are just spouting out your ass
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    - Chargone (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 2:17pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      burden of proof... you make a claim, you gotta back it up if someone questions it.
      
      and turning around and saying that they have to back up their objection to your claim doesn't negate that. (though is fair enough to do anyway, i suppose.)
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- crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:02am
  
  Re:
  If Sony hadn't promised this feature, some of what you say might matter. The fact is they did include the feature, so none of it does. There is no possible reason that could justify them reneging on what they sold to their customers. The lied to me and scammed me out of my money, plain and simple.
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  - Keith (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:25am
    
    Re: Re:
    Sony didn't force you to update. You could have simply refused and kept the feature.
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    - The eejit (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:29am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      And not be able to play games like Mass Effect 2? Yeah, cause that's not a scam at all. I lost interest in the PS3 and have gone to PC gaming now because of the first removal. I also sent a formal letter of complaint to SCEE, and got a partial refund for the sum of �100.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:44am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      So what? If you don't update, you lose the other advertised features you paid for. I really don't see how choosing which features that you paid for get removed helps clear Sony of responsibility.
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Grimby, 17 Feb 2011 @ 5:59am

Sony runs an online service. Jailbroken PS3's have the ability to run unauthorized code and ruin the experience for legitimate users of the PSN. All Sony is trying to do by banning people, which is the exact same thing that WoW, Microsoft, and just about any other online gaming platform does, is to protect the experience for their customers.

I'll ask again, what should Sony do? I've asked this question in just about every article about this that is posted on TD and never get an answer. It sure is easy to point and scream at Sony, but no one else seems to come up with any ideas about how Sony should handle this.
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- abc gum, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:04am
  
  Re:
  "I'll ask again, what should Sony do?"
  
  Apologise?
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:35am
  
  Re:
  If you follow the Mike Masnick logic, they should restore the OS option, they should publish the hack, heck, they should probably pre-hack all the machines, and install every game ever made for free, just to satisfy little criminals with nothing better to do with their time.
  
  Give in the those who seek free, and they will make you, well, not rich, because you gave them everything. Then again, Sony could do good selling t-shirts.
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  - Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:41am
    
    Re: Re:
    Hysteria and hyperbole do not endear anyone to your arguments, and they just make people like myself dismiss your arguments out of hand when you use that.
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  - abc gum, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:49am
    
    Re: Re:
    "If you follow the Mike Masnick logic"
    
    Apparently you do not follow any logic.
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  - Colin, 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:51am
    
    Re: Re:
    This is what the "funny" button is for, right?
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- Christopher (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:43am
  
  Re:
  What should they do?
  
  1. Set their servers to look for 'strange' behaviors in games and alert server admins based on that, so that a REAL LIVE LIVING PERSON can ban if they see things that are not possible without cheating in a game, such as a person taking no damage when they are being hit, etc.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:03am
    
    Re: Re:
    Would this be like the real live people checking youtube uploads for copyright violations, or the real live people checking torrents at TPB for illegal material?
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    - Chargone (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 2:19pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      i somehow doubt the issue would be as extream, as you can actually have the check automated, which flags 'problems' and the actual person only has to check the flagged instances. how big a deal that is depends on the game, i suspect.
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  - Grimby, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:04am
    
    Re: Re:
    Who is going to write the algorithms to watch for strange behavior in each online game considering the games aren't all made by Sony? Are the devs supposed to open up their code for Sony to do this, or is this something the devs are expected to do?
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    - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:06am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      It's something the game companies will handle. They are the ones with the ability and the ones who will profit from having people want to play their games.
      
      You guys realize most of these games are also available on PC right?
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  - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:08am
    
    Re: Re:
    Having a complaint system would help too.
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abc gum, 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:02am

I haven't knowingly purchased anything from Sony since the rootkit fiasco, and I do not see this changing any time in the near future. I find it morbidly interesting, watching the self destruction of a corporation.
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Shon Gale (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:09am

The only Sony I ever bought that didn't die in a year (after the warranty) was a PS2. As a result we haven't bought Sony products in about 20 years. So I have no problem with Sony. They don't exist in my buying world since my kids are grown and can buy their own.
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- Chargone (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 2:21pm
  
  Re:
  ... your numbers don't add up, but your point is valid.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Feb 2011 @ 9:42pm
  
  Re:
  How did you buy a PS2 if you haven't bought a Sony product in 20 years? The PS2 was released in 2000.
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- nicki, 23 Oct 2011 @ 7:16am
  
  Re:
  the only sony product you bought that didn't die in 1 year (after the warranty) was a ps2 and as a result you haven't bought a sony product in 20 years??? i don't think that ps2's were even thought of, let alone existed in 1981
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Hephaestus (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 6:33am

Mike

"why they shouldn't by a PS3 or"

should read

why they shouldn't BUY a PS3 or
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 7:21am

I have no use for Sony, but...
...if you buy into a closed system then you are subscribing to their rules.

If you circumvent those rules, then you (potentially) unbalance the game. Anyone can tell you an unbalanced online game isn't much fun for honest players.

People should do what they want, but they shouldn't pretend
to be in control of something they're not.

Way to go, paddle-slappers. You high-jack the whole industry away from relatively open PC-based systems, and now you complain that the closed system you bought is closed. You've created a drag on the game market, and no amount of money will improve the situation, as long as you clowns remain as shallow as you sit presently.
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Ben (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:00am

Let's face it, the subsection of people effected that want to hack for legitimate reasons and use the PSN are small.

There are three main groups affected by this:

The first big ones that use the Other OS options, like the Airforce, are probably not having people game on those systems and likely not affected at all by the PSN if they want to hack to install their own software.

The seconds ones that are simply hacking for piracy/cheating methods are likely the second biggest group. I don't have much of an issue with people getting kicked off the PS network for that.

The final group, the ones that will be most legitimately effected by this are people of both game legitimately and use the PSN network and wanted to install another OS or homebrew that wasn't piracy/cheating related.

It somewhat sucks that that last subsection gets caught up for the trouble of Sony's decision in the first place to remove the other OS option. But if you want to play in Sony's network you have to abide by their rules.

If you don't like it, don't buy Sony products in the first place. Especially where company decisions like these are hardly new. Don't buy into a closed system and expect to have it both ways.

I have little sympathy for those people that get caught up in this. Let's face it, in the end this will have little hurt on Sony financially, limit the amount of cheaters on the network, and really have no effect on the regular users.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:13am

Jesus Christ this is NORMAL. Has been for decades (I remember being banned from the starcraft online service back in the 90s for doing stupid hacking type of shit). Microsoft has been doing it with the 360 for over a year. When you agree to terms of service, and then you break those terms of service, they have the right to revoke said service.

With this, Sony is not stopping you from jailbreaking, just from taking it online, which is fine with me because frankly, NO ONE LIKES HACKERS ON GAMES.

Understand? I don't like logging onto COD to play against people who have a massively unfair advantage. It causes exoduses from games, it lessens the life of a game, less people end up buying and keeping said games. THIS IS BAD in every way possible.

I'm 100% for homebrew, for re-enabling linux support, even for playing burned blu-rays. But compromised consoles, games, services, never have been allowed to get online in the past on any platform, nor should they be!
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Jesse, 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:15am

I haven't bought a Sony product since the rootkit fiasco.
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This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

name, 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:24am

geohot is a fag & i hope he dies in jail
the subject says it all,geohot will obviously lose,i send my full support to sony(& always will).not only will he lose,he will get rape in jail,& i hope someone kill that faggy nerd too.he thinks he's cool(he's not,thats a fact)he's a dumbass who shouldn't exist(just like the fag bieber & the transvesti gaga).
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Jimr (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:07am

Stop buying Sony products
After the Sony CD root issues I have stopped supporting Sony and I no longer believe in their policies related to customers. I am currently in the process of replacing my old 57 Inch Sony TV with any other brand (Sony was not even considered).

From their actions against PS3 customers it is clear their are not to be a trusted brand anymore.
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Keith (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:35am

Like others have said, What should Sony do? Look at MW2, that game is almost totally unplayable now because of this. As for buying a 360, you'll get screwed there too and pay more for it. How much is a hard drive for a 360? Up until recently you couldn't even us a USB drive and even that is limited. From the beginning Sony has let you put your own hard drive in or connect any drive to it and use it. And to those that say the airforce is now screwed because Sony removed the other os feature, YOU ARE WRONG. You had to agree to the update. You can say no to those and leave your system as is.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:38am

I don't totally disagree
I don't whole heartedly object to parts of this. Note the "parts" portion of my statement. I was never happy that they removed the "other OS" option. I had been seriously debating buying a PS3 just for that option, not for homebrew purposes but because I wanted to play around with Linux on it for fun. I've always felt that once you purchase an item that you take home, if the seller doesn't have the ability to take the item back due to breach of contract such as in the cases of leasing a car or renting a TV, they have no right to tell you how you can and can't use that device in your own home. However, I don't disagree with them blocking users from their PS network. They've created a sandbox environment and they're totally within their right to restrict anyone they want from using it. It's a private domain with some very loose restrictions on who can and cannot enter. It's like saying, you can buy a Ferrari from us, and you can drive it however fast you want, but when you're in our parking lot, keep it under 50 mph or you'll be asked not to come back. Or another real world example is when I was in highschool, our gym teacher didn't care if you ran around in the gym so long as you wore sneakers that wouldn't scuff the floors. Whether any real "harm" has or could happen is irrelevant. The fact is that the PSN is Sony's domain and they can set up whatever ridiculous rules they want. I draw the line, however, at placing update or OS version requirements for newer titles to run forcing you to connect to the network to buy newer games. I understand that as newer titles come out, some versions of the OS may run better on some than others. But putting artificial restrictions on my license of that game and hardware that I own isn't cool and should be fall into an "anti competitive" practice category.
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- BigKeithO (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:35am
  
  Re: I don't totally disagree
  This.
  
  PSN is an online service owned by Sony. If you don't play by Sony's rules then you don't play on the network, seems fair to me. You can still jailbreak (I hate that term btw) your console all you want, you just can't take it online.
  
  The real question is will a jailbroken console still play the latest and greatest games? When newer games require a PSN update that you cannot get to run there is a problem.
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  - crade (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:48am
    
    Re: Re: I don't totally disagree
    No, Sony won't let you "Jailbreak" (ie: use the promised Other Oses feature) at all. You can do it anyway of course because they are unable to physically force people to run the update, but it will completely break your PS3 for all other uses, not just for online.
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indieThing (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 2:17pm

I can't stand the attitude of Sony towards it's customers, and haven't allowed any of their products into my home since they tried to charge me �75 for replacement headphones for a cassette walkman (remember those?), 15 years ago. The whole walkman only cost �80.

Their attitude seems to be to screw as much as they can from each customer before they realise how shoddy a lot of their goods are and refuse to buy any more.
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- Ronald J Riley (profile), 18 Feb 2011 @ 11:39am
  
  Re:
  "Their attitude seems to be to screw as much as they can"
  
  Which is why when I see Sony on an ad I immediately move on.
  
  Sony is like Apple, the only difference being tat most people have not caught on.
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bdhoro (profile), 17 Feb 2011 @ 3:11pm

Well they got what they wanted (not)
What they don't want is people playing illegally copied games.

A jailbroken PS3 used to be able to play legit store-bought games, but this new update removes that feature.

Now if you jailbreak you PS3 you most definitely will be playing illegal copies only.

I just noticed the new EUA and just must ask myself for the millionth time, how are those things possibly legally binding? Nobody is expected to actually read them so doesn't that prevent it?
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- Greevar (profile), 18 Feb 2011 @ 10:04am
  
  Re: Well they got what they wanted (not)
  There is no mutual understanding, no signature, and no identification of agreeing parties. You can't prove they agreed, so there's no contract. It's a "because we say so" contract and it's completely indefensible. Breaking the shrink wrap or clicking a button isn't going to hold up in court as a binding contract, so all of that EULA is good for is to scare consumers into submission.
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a person, 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:29pm

you are all losers
im not gonna waste my time on virgins losers like u(unlike u,i have a life)u are trolls & nerds that will never get laid.im better than u both(& u both know it)your nothing but retards,& me & my friends have been laughning at u dumbasses.& u said"coworkers"haha,fag,your not an adult,your a kid,adults don't waste their time trolling & saying all the dumb retarded shit u wrote.bye fags,continue trolling & being virgins the rest of your irrelevant lives.
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a person, 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:32pm

you are all losers
im not gonna waste my time on virgins losers like u(unlike u,i have a life)u are trolls & nerds that will never get laid.im better than u both(& u both know it)your nothing but retards,& me & my friends have been laughning at u dumbasses.& u said"coworkers"haha,fag,your not an adult,your a kid,adults don't waste their time trolling & saying all the dumb retarded shit u wrote.bye fags,continue trolling & being virgins the rest of your irrelevant lives.one last thing,Japan rules,america sucks dicks,everything japanese is better than anything american,thats a fact.american animation & games suck(nothing but fps & dumb sport)japanese anime & games are obviously better.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:16pm

Anyone that continues to buy into the BS over at Sony deserves what they get.

Fuck Sony!

Not 1 Cent
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georgied, 18 Feb 2011 @ 1:41am

What else to do?
I may not agree with how Sony have handled the whole jail-breaking issue but I'm actually with Sony on this decision.

If you can root the ps3, as well as doing wonderful and bad stuff like your own development or piracy. It's only a matter of time before mods start to appear for gaming cheats. For an online gaming community I can't think of anything that would dilute it's usefulness more.

Did you give Microsoft as much flack when the made the same decision?
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- Greevar (profile), 18 Feb 2011 @ 7:26am
  
  Re: What else to do?
  "Did you give Microsoft as much flack when the made the same decision?"
  
  Yes I did. They are 100% equally as bad as Sony.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2011 @ 9:26am

Mike you should change your name to Mike MasFUD
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- Greevar (profile), 18 Feb 2011 @ 10:07am
  
  Re:
  Who are you to question someone's credibility when you're posting anonymously?
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CanOfTasty, 18 Feb 2011 @ 10:22am

sdlafj
This article is stupid without context. The PSP suffered the same issue. It was jailbroken. Sony tried a new way to fix it. They introduced new features as incentives to keep using the official firmware. All this did in the long run was add more features for people with Custom Firmware to wait a few weeks for. The vast majority of people with PSP's that had custom firmware may not have all been pirates (admittedly there was a lot due to it being real easy), but most of them pretty much just stopped buying games and slapping their SNES roms onto their memory sticks and forgetting that it was a Sony product in the first place. All this is is them trying something new by telling people NOT AGAIN JERKS. At this point you sound greedy. I'm all for jailbreaking PS3's and all that, but that's just because I'm broke and don't care for that side of morals.
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tim, 30 Oct 2011 @ 3:43am

ps3 firmware change
the firmware change from 3.55 was stupid i bought my ps3 because you can copy your game from the disk to the ps3 that saves the eye of the ps3 drive not only that but prevents scratch from being on the disk Sony shouldn't have taken it off that is false advertisement and they shouldn't be above the law.
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You Know its true, 15 May 2013 @ 4:57am

Come on really. Whats the first thing that comes to your own mind when you've jailbroken your ps3?? err let me think.. Wow i can play backup copies of games now, more like downloaded games from torrent or usenet sites. Plus you'll be able to play copied blu-rays because you'll surly want to remove that Cinevia crap. And then its the honest people who go to WORK to earn money to pay for those games that you got for FREE not to mention that the game compies have probally put the price up on that specific game so they counter the lose because of piracy same is said for blu-rays. So its not only the honest people who are buying there game but also are buy 2-3 other peoples copy of that game.

Same principal as you inviting someone into your house, you'll expect to respect you and your property but with a this piracy going on its like taking a 4 year old into the sweet shop and telling her/him they cannot not have a sweet. Yea like they are gonna listen to you.

P.S if memory serves correctly Sony did release the ps3 with those features that they promised then some retard decide to break the rules and that's why Sony have knuckled down on all of this. At least we don't have to pay a gold membership to play online when were already paying for the internet.
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unknown, 22 Jan 2014 @ 6:12pm

hahaha sony
alright so my ps3 is jailbroken on ps3ita cfw 4.40 I can get online with my spoof 9.99 I've been console id banned 3 times now if your not retarded you can unban yourself easily I still play online everyday hand mod the tick outa any game I want they will never be able to stop me I'll keep unbanning myself not hard
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Sep 2014 @ 1:20am

Pssh.
The only reason I'm going to get a jailbroken PS3 is because it'll be cheaper in the long-run. I'm not going to be a scumbag and mod games to troll everybody, I'm going to store the games on the console so I save money. I'm not always going to be able to buy the latest games whenever they come out, but I'll be able to go and hire it for a -very- cheap price. Win-win really.

The only bad thing is that there are some pretty stupid people out there. I'm not one of them.
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anonyous, 17 Nov 2014 @ 1:24pm

problems being resolved
hello and yes psn is being watch and will be disabled in a cuple yaers years
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jake, 29 Jan 2015 @ 10:39am

So long free online experience
You said that you don't have to pay for gold to be able to play online, so long now with ps4 out there you can only play online with gold membership like Xbox. This is why PC is the best platform for gaming not only you have the ability to have more quality in games as the computer games are cheaper than to PS3, PS4, Xbox 360 or Xbox One
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Jesper Klein, 9 Apr 2016 @ 5:31am

lol corrupted fuckers
LOL Sony you are so corrupted, you go exactly at same time almost every months banning cids to sell them again so ppl can unban themself... A big wheel always go
around.. and btw report system doesnt work, the truth for a jailbroken ps3 user is that he gets a regular monthly ban which cost him 20 dollars to unban, so if u pay a monthly 20 dollar fee you can permanently play on your jailbroken ps3 for good for the rest of youre life ;)
GZ SONY LOL
#thetruth!!!!
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