Google Wants Another Court To Determine If Accessing Open WiFi Is Wiretapping
from the maybe-someone-who-understands-tech dept
After an apparently, technically clueless judge ruled last week that WiFi is not a radio communication, and thus suggested Google's collection of open WiFi data represents illegal wiretapping, Google has asked for an immediate appeal on that point, noting that "reasonable judges could disagree," and that fighting a whole trial on other points wouldn't make sense if another court says WiFi is, in fact, a radio communication and, thus, an open WiFi network is not subject to wiretap laws.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: open wifi, packet sniffing, street view, wifi, wiretap
Companies: google
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Re: Radio
That was a "bought" judge. Google has many enemies (its commercial competitors) who are desperate to see its wings clipped. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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That said, Google is still right. You have to consider the intent of the communication protocol. SSID broadcast is built into the protocol and happens on the same frequency. It's not Google's fault that the protocol makes no distinction between reading someone's welcome mat and rifling through their underwear. What Google did is no different from what any other Wifi device does except that the Google car threw those bits into a bucket to be sorted later instead of sorting through the bits immediately.
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Consider that telephone calls can also be passed over ham radio. These phones also aren't encrypted or anything and can be picked up and listened to by anybody with an appropriate receiver.
If you did this intentionally, surely you would agree that's no different from wiretapping?
So, you're saying that's wiretapping? Are you sure that you want to go down *that* road and criminalize a whole bunch of amateur radio operators for something they've been doing for many years?
just because something operates on these frequencies it's the same thing as FM radio.
FM is a particular type of radio modulation. I fail to see what difference the type of modulation makes.
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Do you not agree that someone (neighbors, cops, Google) spying on your cordless phone conversation would be considered wiretapping?
My point was that you can't make the type of radio wave your sole consideration for what constitutes wiretapping. Lots of things are transmitted over radio waves. Some are private (like phone calls) and some are not.
I did say that Google is still right for other reasons, though.
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If it was broadcast in the clear? No.
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But again, it's clear that Google had no intention of recording conversations because of the nature of the protocol (not the frequency of the signal...)
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I saw it on the radio
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What is 3G
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Judge Ware concludes that:
the wireless networks were not readily accessible to the general public as defined by the particular communications system at issue, wireless internet networks, which are not "radio communications," as the term was intended by Congress in drafting Section 2510(16).
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C'mon, what's more likely to be in someone's pocket these days, a radio or a smartphone?
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Just because something makes use of a radio waves does not make it "radio communications" in the sense of a public broadcast. Even the most basic open wi-fi is still digital data, and requires something beyond just a radio receiver to understand.
Take a radio receiver, tune it up to your wi-fi frequencies, and listen to it. Tell me exactly how much information you can extract from the digital noise. The answer is zero.
As soon as you have to perform a step to decode digital information, you are starting to cross the line from just receiving the signal and you are moving on to trying to decode it.
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As soon as you have to perform a step to decode digital information, you are starting to cross the line from just receiving the signal and you are moving on to trying to decode it.
That sounds just like what some idiot (you?) said last time this came up. It was pointed out at the time that digital radio receivers pick up digital signals just fine. A point that you seem to be trying to ignore. And even analog broadcast signals can be encoded. FM stereo? The process by which the stereo information is included is called multiplex encoding. FM stereo receivers then "decode" the signal to get stereo. So you're apparently saying that decoding an FM stereo broadcast is "wiretapping". I find that to be ludicrous.
Maybe you should stick to more basic shilling and stay away from technical topics you obviously know nothing about.
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It certainly is radio and if it is not communication, then what is it?
Ware got it wrong - laughably wrong.
I suppose demodulation could be considered decoding, but this would be counter to you argument because it includes AM, FM, etc. There is nothing magical about the demodulation of an RF signal into digital vs analog.
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Judge Ware got it wrong. Multiple ways.
It is a radio transmission.
It is also accessible to the general public just as anyone with a police scanner, walkie talkie, AM/FM/Shortwave radio, television, etc can pick up transmissions.
Anybody can take an ordinary laptop, download freely available software, and within minutes be intercepting packets from nearby WiFi networks. That is just as "generally accessible to the public" as anyone using a walkie talkie, or police scanner.
And it is a radio transmission.
> Take a radio receiver, tune it up to your wi-fi
> frequencies, and listen to it. Tell me exactly how
> much information you can extract from the digital
> noise. The answer is zero.
Like I said. A laptop. Freely available software. Within minutes you'll be seeing all of the contents of packets right before your eyes. If someone logs into, for instance, Facebook, using an unencrypted transmission (eg, radio) you are picking up that radio broadcast out of the air and can see their password right on your screen.
How did you think FireSheep worked?
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You said: "Anybody can take an ordinary laptop, download freely available software, and within minutes be intercepting packets from nearby WiFi networks. That is just as "generally accessible to the public" as anyone using a walkie talkie, or police scanner."
That is the crux of the matter. As soon as you make a transformative step, you have decoded the transmission. The packets of data are not "generally accessable to the public" without special tools to decode them. More importantly, the other data that is on that wi-fi connection (beyond the SSID) isn't generally accessed by the public. Taking the time to decode and store it is itself crossing the line.
If you can hear it with your human ears and figure out what it is, more power to you. When you have to use technology to determine what is in it, you have cross the line to decoding.
"freely available software" is not a legal litmus test for figuring out if your actions are legal.
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You mean like this? Or can your ears hear AM/FM signals without any kind of technology? If so, that must be the source of the voices in your head.
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You just get more ridiculous. By that reasoning, radio isn't generally accessible to the public without special tools to receive it, namely, radio receivers.
If you can hear it with your human ears and figure out what it is, more power to you.
If you can hear radio with just your human ears, you aren't "the general public" either.
"freely available software" is not a legal litmus test for figuring out if your actions are legal.
And modulation type is not the a legal litmus test for figuring out if something is radio.
Typical copyright industry shill.
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Broadcasts are broadcasts. Broadcasts in the clear are by definition not private. Encrypted broadcasts can be private, since you have to have the key or crack the encryption to listen in. But an unsecured wireless network isn't encrypted.
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Wi-Fi = wireless
http://www.wi-fi.org/discover_and_learn.php
"How does Wi-Fi technology work?
Wi-Fi networks use radio technologies called 802.11 to provide secure, reliable, fast wireless connectivity."
I predict another judge will indeed determine that wifi does indeed work over radio.
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Enough!
It's not wireless, for Chrissakes.
It's a series of airborne tubes.
What is wrong with people?
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Re: Enough!
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Any judge so ignorant of the fundamentals of a technology should recuse themselves or get a tutor before sitting in judgement of said tech.
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The issue is NOT is this technically a radio transmission from a geek point of view but is this LEGALLY a radio transmission in law.
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Also judges frequently take into account how those things work on the real word to help them interpret the law, so in a way that judge was poorly qualified to judge anything.
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Of course it is.
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Anyone with the proper receiver can listen in to your baby monitor.
Anyone with a laptop and freely available software can within minutes be looking at all nearby WiFi packets being broadcast into the air. If someone nearby logs in to, say, Facebook, using an unencrypted connection, you can see their password on your screen.
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The judge is an idiot, period.
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The judge is an idiot, period.
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