Newspapers Win Suit Against Google, Get Their Wish To Be Delisted, Then Complain
from the the-world-we-live-in dept
For years, we've been following the bizarre legal attack in Belgium of a bunch of newspapers against Google for daring to link to them without paying. It kicked off in 2006 with a lawsuit. At the time, we couldn't believe that these newspapers seemed to actually be complaining that Google was giving them traffic, but that's what they did. And, amazingly, earlier this year, they won the lawsuit, with a Belgian court telling Google to pay up for past links -- and to remove all of those links.So... you'd think the newspapers would be happy, right? Nope. David Muir points us to the news that they're complaining about the "harsh retaliation" from Google dropping them from Google's index.
So, let me get this straight. When Google links to them, it's "theft." But when they don't link to them, it's "harsh retaliation." How does that work?
Of course, what it comes down to is that this is all about money. The newspapers just want Google to pay up, so they pretend they're offended by the links, even though they know they need that traffic. So they sued, got their money... and are now suffering because Google won't link to them any more (under direct orders from the court). Perhaps next time, they'll think through the long term consequences of opting out of Google's index...
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Filed Under: belgium, copyright, linking, newspapers
Companies: copiepresse, google
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As a flip-flop like this demonstrates, they don't actually have a problem with Google linking to them - they have a problem with Google making money. They see AdWords pulling in the big bucks that they used to pull in, get mad, and lash out - I doubt they could even explain what they hope to accomplish if asked. I suppose they subconsciously see advertising as a zero-sum game, which is a very silly outlook in the online arena where there is so much room for growth.
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Even if these companies did get a percentage of googles adsense revenue it would not be enough to maintain them. The newspapers would need to shed most of their structure, buildings, printing presses, non writing staff, etc, to survive.
They are basically boned, they will never make a head first leap into this sort of world. So we are left with huff po, and thats going to go away now that AOL has gotten their life sucking claws into them.
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Re: Find me a non geek who can define what a search engine is...
Which sums up the difference between anecdote and actual market research...
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Yahoo and Bing both hover around 15% of the search market:
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Search-Engines/Google-Bing-Yahoo-Search-Share-Stays-Steady-ComScor e-121350/
However, that article says they have held steady over the past quarter. But Bing is up from around 11% a year before. That's some pretty good progress, and a non-insignificant share of the market.
http://www.btobonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100310/FREE/100319996/1089/FREE
S ure, Google still dominates, but your question indicates an lack of awareness that this is still a hotly contested, competitive market.
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So they've gotten exactly what they asked for, and are only now realizing it's not what they really wanted. I feel no sorrow for them at all, this is all their own doing. (And it's notable that Google didn't remove them until after the Appeal's court upheld the ruling, this wasn't punitive on Google's part, it was simple compliance with a bizarre court order. Punitive action would have been Google removing them before the court ruled.)
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So now you're saying that, not only do these newspapers get to decide whether or not they are indexed, they also get to decide precisely how they are organized and presented? So basically, they get to control Google's business... Why?
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"withdraw from all its sites (Google News and “cached” Google, or under any name whatsoever), all the articles, photographs and graphic representations from the Belgian publishers of the daily French- and German-speaking press, represented by the plaintiff, within 10 days of the present notification, under penalty of a daily fine of 1,000,000.00 EUROS per day of delay;"
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Too fucking bad. Maybe next time they won't ask for ridiculous things in the first place, but I doubt it.
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They should have been more specific in what they asked for, especially since there was an initial ruling of a million (!!!) euros PER DAY penalty for not removing the content. I'd make damn sure none of their content was on my sites too with a penalty like that... if you sending them traffic upsets them, who knows what else might upset them?
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I wouldn't be shocked if they are labelled as a bad neighbourhood, and hurt anyone that links to them.
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Re: That isn't what the newspapers asked for.
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Tough fucking shit. They want to play the "linking is THEFT!" card, then SUE over it, then WIN and think Google is going to take ANY chance whatsoever going through that again? If I got sued over something like that, I would get the hell out of the way and completely divorce myself from anything that even smelled like it might bring yet another lawsuit.
Nope, you copyright maximalists got your win, you get to live with the consequences now too. Dont want linking? Fine, you dont get ANY linking. What you dont get to do, after whining, threatening, suing and winning a court order to cease and desist, is whine EVEN MORE that the very action you sued for is now hurting you in some way.
Tough fucking shit.
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So tough, I hope this is a stepping stone from which other newspapers can see that this will hurt their business in the long run...
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The competitors exist, have viable offerings, and there is no switching costs to go from Google to the others. There are very low barriers to entry for any new search company to launch a competing service.
Google has no market control, and no cause for regulation or interference. To be a monopoly requires barriers to entry for competitors, a lack of viable competitors, price control of supply. Google exhibits none of the above, and in fact, sells by auction. How can anyone claim a something is a monopoly when it sells by auction into an unrestricted market?
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For example if I type terms into the address bar of Firefox I get the Yahoo search page (I don't remember if the search bar originally defaulted to Google or I had to change that one manually).
I'm assuming IE defaults to Bing (but I wouldn't know as I have IE locked down).
Monopoly implies lack of choice, and you don't have lack of choice if people have to/choose to actually go looking for your service.
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Re: BING
IE defaults to Bing, but Bing has been caught several times harvesting its results from google.
I wonder if this will cause a cascade removal from other search engines after their backend "comparison" searches to google fail? :)
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Sure, but to be declared a monopoly by the EU is a much lower bar, if you're an American company. ;-)
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Legal obligation
In fact, they're required to specifically *not* do that, the learned judge said so, to the tune of a million-euro-per-day fine if they try.
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Everything was removed as directed, Belgium newspapers now exist on the only landlocked island known to man! They've accomplished the impossible, congratulations! By the way, isolation is a cold lonely place, but it was only brought to you at your request (ahem lawsuit).
On a side note that is oh so obviously related: How come when the law is in favor of content industries all we hear is "The law is the law!"? Regardless of how short sighted it may be, and despite how it is typically very one-sided in favor of content industries, or how a single song costs thousands of dollars in fines if you get it from the wrong site but is only 99 cents from the "correct" site, etc. The claim is repeatedly made ad nauseum as if you expect to hypnotize the world with your droning until everyone agrees with the content industries version of a one way legal system.
Here's some breaking news for you - content that is unknown is destined to stay that way and unlikely to EVER make a profit. The internet dwarfs previous all previous communication tools and if the content industry thinks they will change it to suit their needs specifically then they will suffer the consequences as these Belgian newspapers are doing now.
Enjoy!
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I don't blame Google for ridding themselves of these papers 100%, they are a liability to Google. That would be my call, if it was mine to make.
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Schadenfreude
noun, often capitalized \ˈshä-dən-ˌfrȯi-də\ : enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others
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Re: Schadenfreude
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Advertising
Turns out that most newspaper advertising was massively over prices BS!
Google has an infinitely more measurable response rate and so no mater how the old business model cuts it... they are DEAD, whether they accept it or not. They'd be just as well off making buggy whips!
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Re: Advertising
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Re: Advertising
Only with Google you can know a lot better - full marks for pointing this out.
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Charlie bit my finger!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OBlgSz8sSM
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Perhaps google should charge them...
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One Smart Judge
A stupid law suit BUT the newspaper was within it rights so the court ruled 'NO SOUP FOR YOU' and no desert too.
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Charge the newspapers in question
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Re: Charge the newspapers in question
Even if the court restriction were removed, Google may just find it is too risky to ever include these sites in its indexes. After all, they got sued once before.
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Value Is Relative
So they demanded, and got, a court order, requiring Google to remove their valuable web pages from Google's indexes, link sets, etc.
Now they complain because they forgot to ask "How much is information worth IF NOBODY CAN FIND OUT ABOUT IT?"
Google provides an incredibly useful service, linking interested parties with information that is useful to those parties, and the ability to locate relevant information makes each indexed page more valuable in an overall sense.
Now they're complaining that, as a direct result of their own actions and demands, their websites have suddenly become less valuable, because they have forbidden people to find them.
Does this count as karma?
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Re: Value Is Relative
Yes, yes it does.
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Interesting demonstration of the power of Google, no?
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Re: Interesting demonstration of the power of Google, no?
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http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Search-Engines/Google-Bing-Yahoo-Search-Share-Stays-Steady-ComS core-121350/
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Re: Interesting demonstration of the power of Google, no?
No? Then they don't control what you read either. Yes, they have power. Exaggerating that power isn't helpful to anyone. If you don't like the power they have then talk about their actual power and why you don't think it is a good idea for them to have it. Plead your case to people. Don't just say that they control the universe and everything in it.
--This post was brought to you by our new product, Google Shills. For the latest pro-Google stance, please visit our website at http://shills.google.com
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Re: Interesting demonstration of the power of Google, no?
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After the court decision being upheld, if I were Google I would have removed everything related to the newspapers from my servers too.
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So ban it, and ban it good.
That way they can't waste an appeal court's time to complain that they got too little. They would get laughed out of court to appeal and complain that they got what they asked for.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
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With out being able to link to them or find them in a search they may as well remove their site from the internet. They effectively de-listed themselves! HA HA!
It would be like putting trademark/copyright on your city name and then refusing it to be used by map making companies. After all those map making companies are money off you just because you are there.
I think this should hopefully server a good lesson for other newspapers. Mostly like not...
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Argument for Monopoly?
So my question is, could this court order removing specific newspapers from all their indexes, be used against Google? Showing just how devastating being removed from Google is?
This would seem to be a good example to follow sense they were not removed for abuse, spam, or down listed as irrelevant. So it removes a lot of other factors and gives you a better idea of how much being linked to from Google is worth.
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Re: Argument for Monopoly?
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Obscure newspaper not findable on Google advertises an obscure search engine that nobody uses. Sounds like a great plan!
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But I agree that this might be a clever move from the judge to discourage anyone anywhere for asking for the same treatment again. But I think it's more likely that everyone involved (except maybe google) is just technologically inept.
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Re: new business model?
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They got what they wanted
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Belgium
Less offensive words have been created in the many languages of the galaxy, such as joojooflop, swut and Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish.
The use of bad language can have unforseen circumstances. One example is the war between the G'gugvunts and the Vl'hurgs, caused by a casual remark made by Arthur Dent being mistaken as a terrible insult.
Simultaneous Babel Fish translation also means that any being can be rude to any other being without the need for extensive explanations. This has also started many wars.
The reason the Earth has been shunned for so long is also due to a language problem. On Earth, Belgium refers to a small country. Throughout the rest of the galaxy, Belgium is the most unspeakably rude word there is.
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"Google today stopped its so-called boycott"
"G oogle today stopped its so-called boycott of the Copiepresse newspapers (that had sued it) after they agreed not to enforce copyright infringement fines, but says it doesn’t plan to use such tactics as a matter of practice."
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Re: "Google today stopped its so-called boycott"
booooo @Google.. they should have kept to the court order and not give in to these guys.
2 days ago these search results were EMPTY, now it's a mountain of web spam in there:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adhnet.be
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alalibr e.be
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alesoir.be
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Asudpres se.be
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alecho.be
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Agrenzec ho.be
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Re: Re: "Google today stopped its so-called boycott"
Not true. Google's job of doing no evil, and just offering the best search results they can requires them to accept Copiepresse's offer not to allow their stories in search results (but not Google News).
If I launch a search about news on the price of gems in Antwerp, Google's role is to provide me with the best related stories.
This is further proof that there IS competition in Search, and that Google continues to compete to offer the best search tool they legally and economically can.
Google chose the high road, and this is a much better business decision than the alternative of "Nyah, nyah!" Besides, that point was already well established!
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Re: "they should have kept to the court order and not give in to these guys."
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they asked for it.
the court says (in french) to remove the data from "all their sites... any form of cache". Since the index fits both those conditions, all Google could do was to dump the sites entirely.
even the 2011 court order is similar:
hxxp://www.copiepresse.be/pdf/Copiepresse5mai2011.pdf
(change hxxp to http for active url) middle of page 40, maintains the same order to remove all cached content.
Remember that even presenting a link to the site is a form of cache in itself since it caches the article title and the name of the paper.
Result: removal = nuke entire site, as ordered by the court. In summary, the judge let them have all the rope they wanted to hang themselves.
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Re: they asked for it.
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Re: Re: they asked for it.
To be honest, this sounds more like they simply took the option that would be easiest to implement in the shortest possible time frame. When you're looking at fines of silly-money-per-day if you don't comply, it's entirely possible to have no reason to putz around and literally no time to implement a solution other than the nuke.
Sucks for the newspapers, of course, but considering how technologically tone-deaf many courts are, Google's actions are not surprising at all. I can't imagine what a judge would think if Google had to explain why they hadn't gotten rid of all the 'content' yet: "Sorry, we're trying to make sure they're still listed in our index - yes, we know you told us to remove all that stuff, it's not the same thing, trust us - no, really, you don't need to fine us..."
Yeah. Google ain't that stupid.
(FYI - not an engineer herp derp)
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Ban all media
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How long
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That's exactly what should be done. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
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