Even If You Cancel Your OnStar Service, The Company Will Still Track (And Sell) Your Location
from the how-nice-of-them dept
GM subsidiary OnStar is apparently alerting its customers that even if they decide to cancel their service in the future, OnStar will still track information about them -- and, of course, potentially sell that data.�What�s changed [is that if] you want to cancel your OnStar service, we are going to maintain a two-way connection to your vehicle unless the customer says otherwise.�OnStar is spinning this as a plan to make it "easier to re-enroll" as a customer, but it also seems to admit that there's demand out there for the data that OnStar collects, so it has plenty of incentive to get more such data, even from non-customers. Of course, they don't even seem to acknowledge the creepiness factor of canceling a service, and then still having that service track your every move.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
Welcome to 1984
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Welcome to 1984
That said, the Onstar policy of tracking ex-customers is fucked beyond creepy.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
One more reason to go strictly 'OPT-IN"
As in, unless the customer explicitly "OPTS-IN" to have On-Star track their movements, then they can't legally do it.
That would kill this particular example of over reaching creepiness dead on arrival.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: One more reason to go strictly 'OPT-IN"
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
How long before...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How long before...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: How long before...
It's basically the same as the PROTECT IP act I think. Gov't forces ISPs to save data, then Gov't can easily obtain the data without having to get a warrant.
The GM factor is just that they are collecting the data already stored inside your vehicle in a central location.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
They can't track if the device isn't operational
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: They can't track if the device isn't operational
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: They can't track if the device isn't operational
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: They can't track if the device isn't operational
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Stupid
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Just Rip it out
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Next up, they'll tell customers they'll have two plans, one which tracks, and one which does not, to better benefit the customer.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Again the choice is yours...decisions, decisions......
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Here's one example: bluestar (http://www.costartech.com/pb/products/bluestar.html) -- basically you remove your onstar module and plug in the bluetooth module in its place -- it then uses your onstar mic & buttons to control your phone as a bluetooth handsfree unit.
There are other equivalent products out there -- the one I linked to is just the first I found when I was searching. I have no experience with it myself whatsoever, but it looks cool to me :)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
People have done work on that before and there is already a lot of data on how to do it, including spying on OnStar data transmission.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
And off you go.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Used cars?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Used cars?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Do they have Sting as a customer?
Every breath you take
And every move you make
Every bond you break, every step you take
I'll be watching you
Every single day
And every word you say
Every game you play, every night you stay
I'll be watching you
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Do they have Sting as a customer?
:)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Heard a good line today
If you don't pay, you're not the customer. You're the product.
(Originally in reference to Facebook.)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Free to Police and Court Cases
So your spouse can see exactly where you've traveled in the divorce case. The police can see exactly where you traveled when investigating you for passing around copyrighted movies.
This is indeed a rip-it-out level problem.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
OnStar Clarification
Adam Denison
OnStar Communications
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OnStar Clarification
You mean there are "potentially" more benefits to the customer right?
Either you are offering limited services in exchange for my geographic data, or your not. I could "potentially" win the lottery, but we both know the odds of that happening....
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OnStar Clarification
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OnStar Clarification
Or we could send messages to the vehicle regarding warranty or recall matters.
I get enough "Your warranty is about to expire" mailings. It would just be even more annoying if my car started barking out warnings at me...especially when I bought the car used and the warranty wouldn't cover anything anyways. I like that you still add some value (albeit rare occasions, ie. mandatory evacuations?...tornado warnings?) to non-enrolled customers for tracking, storing, and selling their data. I still believe an opt-out should be an option for those who prefer privacy to little added benefit.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OnStar Clarification
OnStar is now offering a free limited service for those customers who no longer want or can afford the premium service. With the free service, your account is maintained at OnStar for easy re-enrollment later. Additionally, we can still send you urgent alerts to issues in your area such as road closures, significant weather events (tornado warnings) and mandatory evacuations. This new service is 100% free but will require continued connection to the subscibed vehicle.
Someone was asleep at the switch on this one.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: OnStar Clarification
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OnStar Clarification
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: OnStar Clarification
Done right Onstar was not a bad concept. However, clearly Onstar is no longer out to offer a service as customer centric organization. The temptation was just too great and like so many other businesses of today you could not resist the tendency to view customers as a simple resource to exploited.
You want to collect and warehouse huge amounts of data about one's presence and activity in the physical world. Something that has no relevance to the reasons why someone would subscribe to the service in the first place. You should be paying us!
I don't care if you never sell or share it. I don't care if you don't sell or share personally identifiable data (which is a joke in the first place with this sort of data). I don't care if your systems are so secure they will never be hacked. I DON'T CARE! There is no reason to collect and store this data in this manner in the first place! Your policy in regard to how you will treat the data is irrelevant. This is simply something I am not interested in being part of in any form.
Your policy used to limit the use of the data to serve the customer. Such as locating a stolen car or for accident response. You claimed not to otherwise collect or store data. This was the right policy. Now you want to collect data to serve you. Very personal data that shouldn't be collected and stored in the first place. I will not tolerate the continuous collection of my movements and activities for your benefit. I hope anyone with an Onstar device in their vehicle will ensure the service is cancelled and the system is deactivated. Perhaps we should even consider avoiding GM vehicles completely.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Just who's data is it, really?
I think laws do need to be written that explicitly state that a person's data is the property of that person. There may very well be consequences of getting something like that passed, but we WILL have to deal with it, sooner or later.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
With OnStar's history
Anyone who allows OnStar equipment in their vehicle without physically disabling it is just asking for trouble of some sort sooner or later. Personally, I have and will continue to avoid purchasing vehicles because OnStar existed in them. I don't care if it's "activated" or not. I have to take their word for it, and I cannot trust their word.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: With OnStar's history
I have nothing to hide but the thought of someone tracking me just makes me scream. Why, because history teaches that that will always be used to control us.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Waiter!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Waiter!
Just a thought exercise. During your normal day how often do you think someone somewhere can NOT find out where you are? Think about it, really think about it.
Do I think that we are on the verge of being a police state, no. But I think that we have allowed ourselves to be subjected to too much in terms of loss of privacy.
Everyday you can read here and many other sites and see where we have failed to fight the erosion of our privacy. Failed to fight the erosion of our rights.
I am not out there when I worry that I can be put in prison for 75 years because I videoed a police officer in public doing something, anything. When I worry that the government will be able to access information they should not be able to without a court order, but they can.
I am not out there because this worries me. Government should only have exactly the powers we let it have. It should not be able to decide for itself what it can or can not do. It should only perform those duties that we have with full knowledge allowed it to do.
The slippery slope is not only in the passing of laws but in the abdication of those freedoms that are on the surface still there but have long been superseded.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Waiter!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Big Brother is not always the GOV
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
If they continue to track you, SUE them
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
In other words, the problem is much, MUCH harder to solve that it appears to be. And this is generously presuming that those claiming to be solving it are actually serious about doing so, not merely attempting to present the appearance.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Here is how it will happen
Therefore they will be hacked. Please...do not waste my valuable time foolishly suggesting otherwise. It is inevitable. It is only a question of when, and who, and how.
After they are hacked, some or all of their data will be copied. It will then be put on the open market for sale to anyone with sufficient cash-in-hand. This will include spammers, phishers, pedophiles, rapists, stalkers, extortionists, and others. It will also include purchasers who have already acquired other substantial databases of interest and intend to cross-correlate them -- and then either use or sell the resulting enriched data.
All of this will steadily be denied by OnStar's corporate spokeliars. Eventually, it will become too painfully obvious to deny, and those same spokesliars will use the time-honored phrase of corporations everywhere who have done something really stupid in order to satiate the sociopathic greed of their executives:
"No one could have forseen..."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anybody want to bet...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
So what...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: So what...
Even if you have nothing that you do where you would care about being tracked, does it not still creep you out that they can?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Too many times there have been false controls, fuses, etc to give you the sense you did something while the real control lays elsewhere. The best example I can think of is the false thermostat on the wall the employees can go money with and keep complaints down to a minimum while the real control lays locked up and isolated from view.
With the level of sneakiness that requires opt-out rather than opt-in, it is not beyond belief that sort of setup exists already within those vehicles. With the activation to sell this data, it shows that the product maker has no respect for the customer beyond being the cash cow. I in turn have no respect for product makers and service providers who do things in this manner.
I long ago gave up on American vehicles. To put it simply, it isn't worth the money paid for it as they don't last. Pay a 1/3 more for a Japanese vehicle you get twice the life in use. It doesn't require multiple trips to the authorized service center to attempt to repair it. Like it or lump it, this is a good part of what happened to the automotive industry.
Items like "we will now track everywhere you go collecting information" won't bring me back to buying but will more firmly convince me to never buy.
Congratulations on alienating your potential customer base. You've already lost one here for life, care to go for a nation's worth?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
rotten timing
I mean, seriously, this is your plan to sell cars? Spy on your customers and sell the details of their private lives? I hope you get good money for the info you collect, because you're already in the hole for at least $25,000 or $30,000 because I am no longer planning to buy one of these.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Obvious end result
This is problematic because said government is wholly controlled by the wealthy segment of society and they have a vested interest in containing any dissenters, peace activists and others who threaten their profit margins and work for more equitable resource allocation.
Of course, the same is true for crime and pollution and conspicuous consumption and any number of nasty behavior that all comes down to money in the end; as long as we cling to this failed societal design we will continue to be victimized by its functionality.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Clarification
To be clear and transparent regarding our business practices we have put together the video below.
http://bit.ly/onstarTandC
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Clarification
Do you have a clearly stated and firm policy regarding the release of customers' information to "authority" figures?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Clarification
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Clarification
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Clarification
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I'd rather push a Ford...
GM is doing a great job at changing my mind.
That said, I'd like to see somebody try to bring them to court on stalking charges....
P.S. "Friends don't let friends drive Hondas." ;)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: I'd rather push a Ford...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Time and again, I've seen this reaction and after all the smoke clears, it has been a campaign to try and sell some idea or new notion that has hit some business that is particularly sneaky or nauseous. The same notion seems to fail to go over with the public as being so great.
If they are here at this forum, they are elsewhere at other forums, trying to turn the tide of public opinion before it gets locked down.
I will never buy a government motors product after this little escapade. Even if they claim to change their mind 'due to public outcry' have they really? Or have they just went underground with the practice while continuing on? As often as not, that is the reality that happens when some group says they change their mind.
This particular incident enforces the idea you can't trust them.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Lawyers Delight
Some guy cheats on his wife and the wife calls OnStar.
Some social reprehensible person commits heinous crimes that could have been prevented if OnStar disclosed the locational information. The newspapers will have a field day.
Someone installs a Ford product in a GM car. It immediately ceases to operate for some unknown reason.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"anonymized" data
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
So where is the difference?
Many companies will bury this info in their policies and make a point of bringing up they sell your info. As it has been more and more in the digital age, you can have convenience or you can have privacy, but you will always sell one for the other.
As an employee of onstar who happens to read techdirt often, I can tell you there is never an ALWAYS on connection with any vehicle, a call must always be placed from Onstar or by the Person in the vehicle. There are also things like a ring tone, that you hear in the vehicle or or phone icon you can see if we make any kind of voice call to the vehicle, you'll know. Currently any information shared is with partners to provide services to the customer. Can't make a call? we need to give the cell provider your cellular information, and maybe even location so they can check for an outage or other cellular issue. Need to know information about your vehicle, we might need to share your VIN with GM's customer assistance center. Want to make an appointment at your local dealer to change your oil... we need to share info with the dealer. The list goes on.
Really the only difference between onstar and many other companies, is that they actually are putting the news out to let you know what our policies are and make your own choice to opt-out or not.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Onstar tracking
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
On star and chevolet
dealership ... where are you??
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
On Star cancellation
asked if they had the fall down protection yet and they said no, but tried to sell me other things, I said no.
Low and behold they charged my credit card for $7.41 on June 11, 2015--called today, 6-29-15 and wanted them to reverse that charge, the gal just would not take no for an answer and when I told her who I had she hung up on me. It sounded like I wouldn't get a credit back of the $7.41 -- BUT if they need it that bad they can keep it, BUT be sure if I see it again on my charge card I will contest.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
tracking via onstar
Anyone know how to turn on and track via my onstar or sirus radio? I do not have subscription to on star.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]