Can We Just Admit That It's Insane When Microsoft Has A 'Licensing Program' For Someone Else's Products?
from the just-saying dept
There have been a string of similar "deals" announced recently (though we do wonder about the details), but Microsoft has announced that Qanta is the latest company to "license" its usage of Android and Chrome. Here's Microsoft's quote on the subject:"We are pleased to have reached this agreement with Quanta, and proud of the continued success of our Android licensing program in resolving IP issues surrounding Android and Chrome devices in the marketplace."Let's sit back and consider the sheer insanity of this entire effort. Microsoft is going around, trying to get lots of companies to buy licenses to Google's products, when there is simply no evidence that those products infringe on any Microsoft patents. And, notably, Microsoft has never sued Google over those products.
I'd be interested to see if anyone can explain how a system that allows a company like Microsoft to set up a licensing business on someone else's products without any proven legal basis other than the implied threat that they might sue, is a functioning system? It's a huge joke.
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Filed Under: android, chrome, licensing, patents
Companies: google, microsoft, qanta
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What's stranger is Google's response. Which as far as i have seen been little or nothing. Maybe they have inside information on those deals and see them as no threat and just PR spin from a desperate company.
i also don't understand the lack of bashing that Microsoft is taking on these types of deals. Microsoft is basically admitting that its products inferior and they can not compete on a level playing even thou the have these so called patents of said technology.
I have this feeling that this is going to come to head at some point in the near future and nobody's going to like the outcome.
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Re:
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
Napoleon Bonaparte
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Under the wire
I'm glad I did. Of course, this might be the last smartphone I buy unless Microsoft is reigned in.
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Why this site keeps trying to create an issue out of all of licensing negotiations between Microsoft and others eludes me.
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http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2007021720190018
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Why Care?
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Re: Re:
Napoleon Bonaparte
"Never over estimate the stupidity of your enemy" *
AdamR
* copyrighted, trademarked, patent pending
Also willing to cross licensee stupid and funny phrases, hallucinations, and nightmarish IT stories / jokes.
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Microsoft forces the licensing of the O/s just in case it might violate.
so....Microsoft licensed Android devices should make Microsoft liable to ASCAP and BMI for the music they may potentially broadcast because of the flaw that allows audio out.
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Microsoft's "business model" always been tax computer users.
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Re: Why Care?
Sorry to say its not, the extra cost will be passed down to the consumer. Why try to innovate if your going to get hit by lawsuits and have to strike massive cross licensing deals with company's that offer no products or benefits to consumers.
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Re: Why Care?
MS isn't going after tiny devs. These are giant companies with huge legal budgets, they looked at MS's evidence and decided a settlement that both companies felt was fair.
Would you prefer the Apple approach? Sue in every country, blocking competitors from entering the market, harm consumers, submit fraudulent evidence to courts?
There are so many other issues in the patent system and tech companies being sleazy, why focus on this so hard? Let it go - you don't need to be angry on the behalf of two companies that are entering into a mutually beneficial business deal.
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http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26429818-Quanta-Signs-Android-Deal-With-Microsoft
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For example, MS never sued Open Office, despite making the assertion it violated 45 patents (many of which may be invalid). Now, if companies like HP started building Open Office-based school machines? Well, MS might step in.
I think this will be tested when/if the Motorola + Google deal closes, if the existing Motorola + MS license deal doesn't carry forward.
Source for MS on FOSS Patent Violations: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-free-and-open-source-software-violates-235-microsoft-p atents/436
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as for the 'two companies that are entering into a mutually beneficial business deal'. nothing wrong with that at all, as long as the company selling something is legally able to do so. if Microsuck are allowed to do so, where is their evidence of that?
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Re: Microsoft's "business model" always been tax computer users.
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Also...
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Re: Microsoft's "business model" always been tax computer users.
Even when you agree with Mike you have to get a dig in. Good Grief.
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Re: Re: Why Care?
These manufactures are not the ones who made the OS, its Google. Why has Microsoft ignored Google?
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Re: Microsoft's "business model" always been tax computer users.
The scientists and whatnot who built Windows and all the other Microsoft products were employees of Microsoft. Get it? In exchange for a salary as well as benefits/perks if any, they built products for Microsoft. So what if Bill Gates profited more?
As for unlimited rewards...isn't that the problem with copyright? Like how Harper Lee still gets paid for work she did in the 1960's (FYI, I'm talking about the sole book she's written, To Kill a Mockingbird).
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It's a huge joke confirmation:
Yes No Cancel
If there's anything I've learned working in this industry, it's that all the laws to protect consumers against unfair business practices does not include those who distribute digital goods (software, music, movies).
So be sure to click "Cancel" and hope...
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What Google is doing, is starting to detonate the equivalant of several thousand nukes, in the surreal world of patents. When they finish, if your patents are not physical objects, about a million of them will be worth as much as one Vietnamese dhong. If the patents are for physical objects, they will be worth about a dhong each.
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Microsoft "Licensing" of Google's Products
There needs to be a way to force an accuser to demonstrate that he has a legitimate claim before filing lawsuits, and that the lawsuit is aimed at the party actually committed the act. For example, the SCO case should have been thrown out the first time they refused to answer the question "where is the infringing code." In the case of Microsoft, if they can't point to a specific patent, and a specific part of Android that violates that patent, then they should be charged with running a protection racket and jailed.
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hardware patents
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Re:
And yet it massively impacts the public and innovation. You may not mind getting screwed over. But I care.
Why this site keeps trying to create an issue out of all of licensing negotiations between Microsoft and others eludes me.
You don't find it odd that a company has a licensing program for someone else's products?
You must be a lawyer. And not a good one.
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hardware patents
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Re: Why Care?
But it's not. You now have monopoly rents included in the equation, which jacks up the consumer price at no societal benefit. Why would you ever support such a system?
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If they succeed many companies will be in deep trouble and panic. And I'll become a Google fanboy.
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Re: Why Care?
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Re: hardware patents
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Re: Re: Why Care?
The other companies settle because it's cheaper to kick Microsoft a few bucks per unit than to go to court. Also, it's more likely they'll get favorable treatment from Microsoft for other things if they play along.
But evidence? There's exactly none.
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Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Why Care?
"Would you prefer the Apple approach? Sue in every country, blocking competitors from entering the market, harm consumers, submit fraudulent evidence to courts?"
Yes, I absolutely would. Bring this out into the light of day.
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Re: Re: Why Care?
Furthermore, if Google had a rock-solid legal standing why haven't they acted to protect their customers? I think we all know the answer to that - Microsoft most likely does own patents which are infringed upon by the Android platform.
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Because ideas are cheap and execution is actually what's important. Also, I'm not really sure one can "steal" an idea. I come up with ideas all day long; no one owes me a damn thing.
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Re: Why Care?
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http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100222/1816398260.shtml
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Re: Microsoft's "business model" always been tax computer users.
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Think about it. If a representative came up to you and said you owe them $1000 and if you don't pay they're going to sue you for millions. You know they don't have a case, but you do know they have the money and lawyers to bankrupt you proving it. Then the nice Microsoft man says that he'll settle for only $500. What would you do? Pray to god you can get it thrown out before the bank forecloses on your house?
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Re: Under the wire
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FAT
Any device maker who uses Mass-Storage is liable to pay MS unless we user say - enough - we are ready to install some drivers to our PC and the hell with MS patented fat
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Re: Microsoft "Licensing" of Google's Products
If an individual or small company sues and is wrong, they have to pay their legal fees again to the large company. It doesn't bankrupt them, but they will certainly think twice about filing frivolous lawsuits when it costs them double legal fees.
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What?
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
In case you missed it by not reading the article properly:
"Microsoft is going around, trying to get lots of companies to buy licenses to Google's products, when there is simply no evidence that those products infringe on any Microsoft patents."
So who stole whose idea again?
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Re: Also...
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Microsoft "Licensing" of Google's Products
If an individual or small company sues and is wrong, they have to pay their legal fees again to the large company. It doesn't bankrupt them, but they will certainly think twice about filing frivolous lawsuits when it costs them double legal fees.
First of all, the system already sanctions plaintiffs for bringing frivolous lawsuits by making them pay the defendant's attorney's fees. The problem is that you clearly have a much looser definition of "frivolous" than the legal community does. Second, a "loser pays" system will place a chilling effect on plaintiffs who have legitimate legal claims against tortfeasors. That, in my view, is bad policy.
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Re: Re: Why Care?
This is a sad attempt at rationalization. Amongst its obvious flaws is the fact that evidence or lack thereof has little meaning outside a court of law. The mere threat of an impending law suit can have deleterious effects upon companies both large and small. As past history has shown, one does not need any evidence in order to extract monetary payments.
"These are giant companies with huge legal budgets, they looked at MS's evidence and decided a settlement that both companies felt was fair."
Now this is complete BS. I would guess that many four letters words were used to describe this "settlement".
"Let it go - you don't need to be angry on the behalf of two companies that are entering into a mutually beneficial business deal."
And more BS. Customers never get upset about price gouging now do they?
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Re: Re: Why Care?
"Fair" is any interesting word to describe this. There are countless examples where companies have settled because the cost to litigate, even if completely successful, would be much higher than the settlement cost. That's the whole reason companies like MS do this, they know the legal system is stacked in their favour. "Fair" it ain't.
If you have any evidence that this case is different, please share it with the class.
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Patent Free
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Companies cross-license techonolgy all the time, Google should have cross-licensed with Microsoft before releasing Android. By not doing so they may have exposed their customers (phone manufacturers) to potential litigation.
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Re: Patent Free
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Litigation is expensive. and even if Google doesn't have a solid legal standing, that's irrelevant here since it is partly the legal (patent) system itself that is being criticized and questioned here.
"I think we all know the answer to that "
Litigation is expensive.
"Microsoft most likely does own patents which are infringed upon by the Android platform."
and one thing we often complain about is the fact that the USPTO passes a bunch of ridiculous patents that it should not. So even if M$ owns such patents, what's your point? Many of those patents should likely be invalidated and should have never been issued in the first place. and a court should likely not enforce many of those patents (now the question of whether or not a court will is a different question).
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The Toddler’s Creed
If I give it to you & I change my mind later, it’s mine.
If I can take it away from you, it’s mine.
If I had it a little while ago, it’s mine.
If it’s mine, it will never belong to anybody else, no matter what.
If we are building something together, all the pieces are mine.
If it looks like mine, it is mine.” Anon
http://edukidsinc.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/290/
Being selfish and egotistic is a normal part of toddler development. You just need to lock up the important and delicate stuff so they don't break it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Why Care?
"that are entering into a mutually beneficial business deal."
One company using a broken legal system to extort money out of another company is not a mutually beneficial 'agreement'.
That's almost like saying, if someone was taken for ransom and asked someone else for a million dollars to return that person back, the paying of the ransom in return for the person is a mutually beneficial agreement because both parties decided on a settlement that they both thought was fair. No it's not. Not all agreements are necessarily mutually beneficial or fair.
"Would you prefer the Apple approach? Sue in every country, blocking competitors from entering the market, harm consumers, submit fraudulent evidence to courts?"
Two wrongs make a right?
When our legal system is misused to facilitate one sided, non-mutually beneficial agreements, then it becomes everyone's business.
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
The mentality that people should invest time and effort into developing new technology "for the good of society" is not reality. The truth is that publicly traded companies which spend hundreds of billions each year on R&D would not do so without IP protection. Without patents the innovation well would quickly dry up.
Cures for innumerable diseases would never have been developed, wireless phones would not exist, digital cameras would never have been developed, etc... You were probably taught that academic research is the holy grail of innovation, but the vast majority of technological advancements occur in the business world.
Why would a business invest time and money to develop some new technology that anyone can pick up (without spending any money or time) and undercut the price? There would be no incentive for investment because there would be no protection from theft of the techonology.
We can argue the details, such as the "obviousness" test, but you cannot with a straight face argue that the world would be much less advanced without IP protection.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: hardware patents
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Re: Re: hardware patents correction
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
What does it matter what we have or don't have? MS is not asserting an infringement claim against you. Just because evidence of infringement is not being made explicitly clear to the general public does not mean that such evidence does not exist. It is entirely possible that if there is such evidence, Qanta does not want it public either.
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MS Agreements
2. I see these agreements as a way for some mfrs to make some money, while the Android stuff drags thru the courts.
3. We don't have ANY info on communications between Google and the mfrs in question.
Until or if we get more info, it's useless to speculate. We know MS likes to do their dirty work thru proxies. They prefer FUD to an actual court showdown. There must be a reason why they haven't gone after Google directly. Perhaps, after SCO, and after Oracle, things will calm down a little.
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Re: Re: Why Care?
I got a better idea. If you have nothing useful to add then let this thread go and don't input your worthless comments. If it's not worth it then why do you bother?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
There is no good reason for me to think otherwise.
"but the world would be much different today if patents didn't exist. "
Sure, it would be a much better place.
"The mentality that people should invest time and effort into developing new technology "for the good of society" is not reality."
The mentality that patents are needed is not reality and it's not evidenced. Much of the reason that the technology sector flourished, for example, is exactly because patents weren't very well enforced in this sector. For example, see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka4L0jGF_-Q
The U.S. pharma industry, OTOH, has had patents for the longest and it's one of the least, if not the least, innovative industries, partly because of the fact that patents are so deeply engraved in it.
"The truth is that publicly traded companies which spend hundreds of billions each year on R&D would not do so without IP protection."
That's just your, mostly unsubstantiated, opinion.
"Without patents the innovation well would quickly dry up."
No evidence behind this and most of the evidence suggests otherwise. For example see
http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/against.htm
"Cures for innumerable diseases would never have been developed, wireless phones would not exist, digital cameras would never have been developed, etc..."
Provide evidence that none of this would have been developed without patents. If you want to make a claim, the burden is on you to substantiate.
"You were probably taught that academic research is the holy grail of innovation, but the vast majority of technological advancements occur in the business world."
Which says nothing about the utility of patents.
"Why would a business invest time and money to develop some new technology that anyone can pick up (without spending any money or time) and undercut the price?"
This is called a false dilemma. The fact that you must use poor logic to argue your position only emphasizes the weaknesses in your position.
"There would be no incentive for investment because there would be no protection from theft of the techonology."
Except plenty of innovation has occurred in the past without IP and it will continue without it. The fact is that there is little to no evidence to suggest that IP encourages innovation, almost all of the evidence suggests otherwise. So you're wrong and your unsubstantiated false dilemma is wrong.
"We can argue the details, such as the "obviousness" test, but you cannot with a straight face argue that the world would be much less advanced without IP protection."
I am arguing that, and I have the evidence on my side.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
If the business doesn't innovate, other businesses will. The business knows it. and those other businesses will innovate them out of the market. Businesses get a first mover advantage by being the first to market and innovating again before your competitors copy you. and you assume that copying is easy and cheap this is not always the case. If something is easy enough to copy then it's often easy enough to develop in the first place.
and patents don't have R&D value since applying for a patent after spending money on R&D runs you the risk that you won't be granted the patent after the fact (ie: someone else may already have a similar patent or they may apply before you) and hence you can get sued by someone else with a similar patent. So what companies do is they simply acquire as many patents as they can to avoid getting sued with those patents. That does nothing to contribute to innovation.
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Re: MS Agreements
2. If they were decent, they would be for microsoft software.
3. We don't need to speculate. Microsoft is charging for stuff other people made.
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Re: Re: MS Agreements
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: MS Agreements
Microsoft leader is not known to be a guy who let go of things and he already told everyone that he doesn't like Google, they dropped things against FOSS for some reason and claim that Google and Apple are now their first priorities, you also forget how Microsoft got to the top, they are extremelly skilled in the art of forcing others to comply, remember Dell?
This is a nightmare, it is the tool that will be used to keep everyone out of the market place and that includes the little guy eventually.
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Re: MS Agreements
Microsoft just turned into collection agencies, but different from them they only need to pay themselves.
It is crazy that those who work need to pay others that don't.
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Re: Under the wire
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The "entire tech economy"?
Ha ha ha ha
What a load of crap.
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1. Because the patents probably pertain to cellphones (or at least computing devices). So Android doesn't violate those patents because it is an operating system not a cellphone. Yes, a cellphone running Android might, but that is different. MS could do a deal with Google (if Google was willing) and then let them sublicense the Android licensees but...
2. You always go after the last part of the chain. It is a lot easier to get $1 from a guy selling a $200 smart phone than from a person building a $5 chip or licensing a $0 operating system. Even chips we built that violated patents only did so once in a phone (after all we never powered them up) but more to the point, why go after us when you could go after the people using the chips who have a much higher priced device.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
When the government is used to grant a monopoly privilege, the public should have the right to know how those laws are being used to help us better assess the utility of those laws and any changes that might need to be made. Could it be that M$ is hiding these patents from the public because it knows that it either doesn't have a strong case or that it's suing over ridiculous patents and that its actions are not publicly beneficial or desirable? M$ should not be allowed to hide which patents it's using, especially since patents are supposed to be about public transparency and since patents are a government granted monopoly.
If M$ doesn't like it, then they can choose not to use our legal system to exercise its monopoly privileges.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Wasn't a patent supposed to assist us in better knowing how a product is designed and providing for transparency? All the public has here is that, "This awesome and revolutionary new computer mouse here violates some patents somewhere, nobody really knows which patents it violates". How does that provide us for transparency in how to build this awesome new mouse? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the patent system? So that when a company releases a product, the public gets to know how that product is built and so that the information required to build the product doesn't remain a secret? We don't even have that. All we have is, look, there are a billion patents out there and this product infringes on some of them. Which tells us nothing about how that product was made. It doesn't help future generations out much and it provides for very little transparency.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Not making this explicitly clear to the general public undermines part of the purpose of having patents. Part of the purpose, that I've seen IP maximists here harp on, is the need for product transparency in providing the public with valuable information on how a product is made. It's to incentivize companies not to keep their valuable secrets hidden from the public. We don't have that here.
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Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
More data, please.
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Re: MS Agreements
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Microsoft "Licensing" of Google's Products
Copying others and stealing ideas should never be a tort ever!
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Re:
"So the whole, 'We have a list and we're not telling you,' itself should tell you something," Torvalds said of Microsoft's stance in the Fortune story. And for good measure, he added: "Don't you think that if Microsoft actually had some really foolproof patent, they'd just tell us and go, 'nyaah, nyaah, nyaah!'"
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Incorrect. The fact that you have not been presented with evidence is not the same as there being NO evidence. MS is under no obligation to make the facts underlying its business dealings and dispute resolution available for public consumption. Just because you cannot see it does not mean that it isn't there.
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The only thing that MS is concealing is its opinion as to which of its patents MS believes that Quanta infringes, and the only party that can really force MS to make that opinion public is Quanta. Until MS files a complaint in court, you have no basis for making MS divulge its opinion.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
How do we not have that here? All of MS's patents are available to be read on the USPTO's website and on other sites such as Google Patents. You are free to look them up at your leisure. The only thing keeping you from finding out what technology MS developed and patented is your own laziness.
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Bulls***. Of course M$'s deal includes Qanta signing an NDA not to talk about it so they can keep on their scheme letting simple-minded people like you think that there actually must be something to their allegations.
How naive can you be (given their track record)?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Yeah, right. Cause people will just accept all the problems they face instead of doing something about them.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
SCO: "Linux has infringed on thousands of lines of code, give us money"
IBM: "Erm, prove it in court"
(years of discovery enabling MS and others to spread FUD about OSS and Linux, and preventing any opportunity to "fix" what might have been infringing)
SCO: "Erm, did we say thousands? Here's 40 lines of code, most of which aren't copyrightable"
Novell: "Oh, and even if Linux had been infringing, those copyrights weren't yours anyway"
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Ha! You have a long history on the site of making some of the most ridiculously pejorative comments around, so, honestly, if you can't take it, perhaps you should stop dishing.
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NOIT IS NOT!
this is U.S.A.
ANY THING GO
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
OK then, no evidence available. Does that satisfy you?
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Re: What?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
That's just a list of things that others can't independently invent without being sued. and many of those patents can be very broadly interpreted to cover a lot of things. That doesn't do anyone any favors. It's useless and provides engineers with nothing of value. It's only good for lawyers.
"The only thing keeping you from finding out what technology MS developed and patented is your own laziness."
Since most patents never make it to market, that's not a list of technology that M$ developed and patented. That's just a list of things that M$ can prevent others from making. The public has no assurance that M$ has developed any of what it patented. It doesn't tell us how any of Microsoft's products are made, all it tells us is that this is a list of things that Microsoft can stop others from making. That's not helpful and it provides for no product transparency. It doesn't serve the purpose of what patents were allegedly supposed to do, to tell us how a product is made. We can look at any of Microsoft's products and still have no clue how any of it is made. All we know is that it might be covered by one or more of Microsoft's patents. That's not helpful and that defeats part of the purpose of having patents. Future generations are left with nothing useful. They can look at past products and not know how they were made.
We need a if you don't use it, you lose it patent clause. If your patent isn't being used for something, then you lose the patent. and you must publicly specify what your patent is being used for and how. Patents are supposed to be about product transparency, they're supposed to tell us how a product works. They're not doing that. They've turned into a method of tyranny, only a way to tell others what products they can't make. That doesn't help anyone beyond the patent holder and the lawyers and only a naive fool would think otherwise. In order to have a monopoly on something, you must disclose to others that which you have a monopoly on (and Microsoft is arguably not even doing that here). That's just a way to tell others what not to do by disclosing to them what they can't do. That's not a form of product transparency, that's a form of dictatorship. Little different than what a dictator of a country does. It does no one any favors.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Which isn't the argument being made.
"All patents are public."
Which does no one any favors beyond telling them that you can't do x.
"You can even do keyword searches to find which of MS's patents pertain to the technical subject matter of your choosing."
Which misses the point. All that is is a list of things that others can't do. It doesn't tell us how any of anyone's products were made. It provides for no product transparency, it only provides for a list of things that others can't do. It's much different than the patent system of 100 years ago, where the product that the patent covered was known. Now it's simply turned into a list of things that you can't do and they're not tied to any product in particular. The inter-workings of a product are still kept secret, Microsoft gets both a bunch of government sanctioned monopolies without even disclosing to the public how any of its products work.
"The only thing that MS is concealing is its opinion as to which of its patents MS believes that Quanta infringes"
Which doesn't do the public any good. It provides for no product transparency. They are taking from the public while giving us absolutely nothing in return.
"and the only party that can really force MS to make that opinion public is Quanta."
Which is why the law needs to change.
"Until MS files a complaint in court, you have no basis for making MS divulge its opinion."
Which, again, is why the law needs to change.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
So I can simply declare that no patents are being infringed upon here. That's a falsifiable statement. Falsify it. Prove me wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Why Care?
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Simple Answer
You can sell something you do not own.
But, you can always sell someone else does not own.
This is what the Occupy Movement is about - if you did not figure it out.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
In the meantime, I have never stated anything even remotely along the lines of "you disgust me" and the like.
If I happen to challenge something you write relating to substantive law, it is because I happen to believe that what was said was in error. If I disagree that something is "obvious", it is because obviousness is an issue that does not admit to casual observation. Etc.
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So wait, suspecting someone of being a lawyer is slander now? Are you admitting that being a layer is a bad thing? Are you a lawyer?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
You are free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine most of MS's patents are directed toward methods, processes and systems, not products. For instance, linked below is a patent owned by MS that is directed to "A method for displaying electronic mail messages in a conversation grouping". Have a look:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=FsTPAAAAEBAJ
Your primary complaint appears to be that the patents owned by MS do not explain how to make MS's products. If so, perhaps you should explain what kind of information you are looking for that is not already disclosed in the patent linked above.
I will tell you this much. Patents are not about product transparency; they are about invention transparency. All a patent has to do is describe the invention in sufficient detail to allow a person having ordinary skill in the art to make and use it. And quite frankly, I don't understand why anything more than that is necessary. If a particular invention embodies only a small portion of a particular product, I don't see why a patentee should have to explain how the entire product is made unless such explanation is necessary in order to make and/or use the particular invention.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Which does no one any favors beyond telling them that you can't do x.
Something tells me that you've never actually read the disclosure of a patent. I can assure you that patents explain far more than what you claim. Read one sometime.
Which misses the point. All that is is a list of things that others can't do. It doesn't tell us how any of anyone's products were made. It provides for no product transparency, it only provides for a list of things that others can't do.
No? You sure about that? Did you actually read the disclosure of any of MS's patents? They're free to read if you like; all it costs you is time. Perhaps you would think differently if you actually had read the contents of a patent.
It's much different than the patent system of 100 years ago, where the product that the patent covered was known.
If you're talking about mechanical inventions, I can assure you that patents to such inventions still exist and are being prosecuted today (medical devices being a huge field of such inventions). So this clearly isn't a problem with how patents applications are drafted now compared to the past. It appears to be a problem with the level of technical understanding one must have in order to understand patents directed to computer processes and systems, as they are not easily broken down into pretty little pictures.
"The only thing that MS is concealing is its opinion as to which of its patents MS believes that Quanta infringes"
Which doesn't do the public any good. It provides for no product transparency. They are taking from the public while giving us absolutely nothing in return.
Of course it doesn't do the public any good. But then again, it's also not really the public's business to know. MS's opinion as to whether Quanta infringes its patent portfolio is merely that: their privately held opinion. Until MS decides to use public resources (i.e., the court system) to resolve its dispute with Quanta, the public does not have a legitimate interest in finding out MS's opinions regarding its patent portfolio.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Called out by whom? You? What interest do you have in MS's dispute with Quanta? What business do you have in demanding that MS produce anything? Why should MS divulge confidential information at your beck and call?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
No, that also implies that no evidence exists. You do not know that. All you know is that no evidences has been provided to you. But, once again, just because you cannot see it does not mean that it does not exist. And last I checked, MS has no duty to disclose evidence of Quanta's supposed infringement to someone like you.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
What is "here"? Provide the facts and then maybe we can make a determination of infringement.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
No, that also implies that no evidence exists.
No, it really doesn't. If I say "with the money available I can only buy two candy bars" doesn't imply there isn't any other money anywhere. Similarly, stating there is no evidence of Microsoft's patent claims publicly available doesn't imply there is no evidence at all.
With the absence of available evidence, do you take Microsoft at their word that they have valid patent claims? Or do you treat the claim with skepticism? Consider their financial stake in the situation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
I would be skeptical, but then, I have not been presented with any evidence, nor have I done any investigation on my own. I find it unlikely that MS never presented any evidence to Quanta, and I can assure you that Quanta did its own investigation of MS's patent portfolio against Quanta's products.
The TechDirt commentariat here has not done any of their own investigation either; they want the investigation done for them and have all the information resulting therefrom presented to them on a silver platter. If such information is not so presented, the TD commentariat presumes the worst of the party they disfavor. I view that as objectionable.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
Glad to hear that.
The TechDirt commentariat here has not done any of their own investigation either;
How much spare time do you think people have to put into this stuff?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Care?
I'm not asking anyone to do any investigation; I'm asking them to recognize that they don't know all of the facts here.
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Functioning system ?
Henri
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