The Revolution Will Not Be Infringed Upon: Long Island Couple Files To Trademark 'Occupy Wall St.'

from the sticking-it-to-the-man-via-the-proper-channels dept

Wed, Oct 26th 2011 8:57am — Tim Cushing

Wall Street blog extraordinaire, Dealbreaker, alerts us to the perhaps unsurprising news that a Long Island couple has filed for a trademark on the phrase "Occupy Wall Street." (More in-depth information, including the filing, over at The Smoking Gun.):

In a U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) application, Robert and Diane Maresca are seeking to trademark the phrase "Occupy Wall St." so that they can place it on a wide variety of goods, including bumper stickers, shirts, beach bags, footwear, umbrellas, and hobo bags.

While there's something to be said for striking while the iron is hot, some very ugly backlash from actual Wall Street occupiers is pretty much guaranteed. If there's one thing protesters of a financial system hate (and it's by no means the only thing), it's having their dissent sold back to them. This possibility did cross the Marescas' minds, but it has all been safely rationalized away:

Asked if his move to stake a legal claim to "Occupy Wall Street" might be seen as a crass attempt to cash in on a movement that has a harsh view of corporations and capitalism, Maresca answered, “No.” Noting that he has a "practical business side," Maresca added that, "If I didn’t buy it and use it someone else will."

Of course: the I'm-not-the-only-one-with-a-horribly-crass-idea defense. Maresca has a point, though. Someone else would. In fact, a Brooklyn man has already filed a trademark request for "We Are the 99%." Of course, this Brooklynite can always add "44/100" to his T-shirts and sell them to Procter & Gamble, should this occupation suddenly end. Maresca's phrase has no "out," if you will, but he won't let that keep his growth industry down. After all, he's got two things going for him;

authenticity:

Maresca said that he has visited the Wall Street protest site on several occasions and believes that corporations have too much influence on elected officials.

and school supplies:

While he has yet to mass produce any “Occupy Wall Street” product, Maresca said that he has inked some t-shirts with magic markers.

That, my friends, is how you carpe the hell out of the diem. Now there's nothing left to do but sit back and wait for the backlash/C&Ds to start flying.

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Filed Under: occupy wall street, trademark

101 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:00am

You don't need a copyright to sell some goddamn t-shirts.
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S, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:01am

Hahaha, oh wow.

. . . Dude, seriously?
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Chris Maresca (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:01am

Not related
These people are giving me a bad name....
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:08am

At least...
When the government cracks down they have someone to put in the gulag.
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Ninja (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:10am

Reinforces the idea that this world is rotten consumed with greed. There's this established need to monetize over everything and anything.

If they hadn't tried to register the thing it wouldn't be so bad but trademark? LoL, rly, burn in hell.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:15am

String em up.
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:22am

A quick question
Can the public file for a trademark? Sorta like a class action or petition thing?
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Jeff Rowberg (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:24am

Wordage Win
"That, my friends, is how you carpe the hell out of the diem."

This just definitely became my favorite phrase of the week. Maybe even the month.
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:26am

Re:
...Trademark.
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MrWilson, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:29am

"If I didn�t buy it and use it someone else will."

This is something that I've been railing against for a while now. The fact that other people are being greedy asshats doesn't mean you are justified in being a greedy asshat. I can at least respect the honesty of a sociopath who will admit that they are just in it for the money, but the person who feels it necessary to attempt to justify their greed with bullshit like this is only showing that they know its wrong but are doing it anyway.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:33am

Do you really think the protesters care about the legality of there name? If they get a trade mark on the name are you going to sue the people who created it?

The protesters are not a single group and have no "leader" nor do they have a corporate entity so the most you can do is sue specific people.

Feel free to take them to court, you will only be seen as an ass and help them protest more.
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daddytech, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:35am

REALLY?
So if they patent the phrase that means news medias would have to pay them every time that phrase was used in a broadcast from that point on. that's kind of like riding a mule that's pulling the plow and getting off when all the work is done saying "look what i just did"
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:37am

If I didn't buy it an use it...
This is exactly the tragedy of the commons, and is (as I perceive the protests) one of the flaws in the system people are so angry about - entities being granted the exclusive use of communal property for their own commercial gain.

Unfortunately people like Maresca are so busy buying up things before someone else does they don't stop to wonder if they should be able to buy them in the first place. The USPTO is supposed to be guarding the public domain, but have dropped the ball on quite a few fronts lately.
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:38am

Re: REALLY?
...Trademark.
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Togashi (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:39am

Re: Wordage Win
It reminded me of some speaker we had back when I was in high school who opened with something like "You know, everyone always tells you to seize the day, but I say just seize the building and the day will probably take care of itself."
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:42am

Serious security concerns
�Police, protesters clash in Atlanta, Oakland, USA Today, updated 1h 33m ago

[Atlanta Mayor] Reed told reporters he had serious security concerns that he said were heightened Tuesday when a man was seen in the park with an assault rifle.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:43am

Re: Re: REALLY?
...Anal.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:44am

Re:
When they set up a booth they should be shut down and publicly tarred % feathered.
This is an example of greed and that is what OWS does not want to see.I am sure they could of just made t-shirts and no one would of cared but getting a trademark on something you did not create that is a movement shows GREED.
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iamtheky (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:46am

Maresca's phrase has no "out," if you will

maybe to encourage defense for whichever team the Washington Wizards are playing?

Or is that more of a reach than your altering that facilitates an obscure reference to old ivory soap commercials (while another convoluted attempt at humor, it would not even be the trademarked phrase, thus not an "out" to begin with)?
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:52am

This is classic. The ultimate "f-you" to the occupy wall street types. It also proves a certain level of irony as well, as this guy feels there is a big business in selling t-shirts that rail against big business.

Perhaps this best explains why the OWS types are doomed to failure, because they too end up supporting the very system they claim to despise.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:54am

Is it even legal to file for a trademark that someone else invented and millions of others already use?

If any one person owns this trademark it's a guy from Canada who runs a blog (I forget the guy's name, or his blog's URL).

It was a guy from canada who thought up the whole Occupy Wall Street protests on his blog, and suggested it to his American readers that they start up an 'Occupy Wall Street' protest. His American readers thought it was a great idea, so they started the Occupy Wall Street protests.
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ken (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:57am

Merchandising! Merchandising!
Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from the protest is made. Occupy Wall Street-the T-shirt, Occupy Wall Street-the Coloring Book, Occupy Wall Street-the Lunch box, Occupy Wall Street-the Breakfast Cereal, Occupy Wall Street-the Flame Thrower.
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John Doe, 26 Oct 2011 @ 9:59am

Re:
I might be wrong, but I think if that guy was using the term in commerce first, he could protest the filing and have it stopped. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

On the other side though, I think this is funny as all get out. I just wish I had thought of it first. ;)
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Jeff (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:01am

Nothing good can come of this... What's next? Somebody getting a TM for Anonymous?
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ken (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:01am

Re: Merchandising! Merchandising!
Will Occupy Wall Street be listed on NYCE or Nasdaq?
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bjupton (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:02am

Re: Merchandising! Merchandising!
Occupy Wall Street Yoghurt!
Occupy Wall Street Greek Yoghurt!
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:08am

Re: Merchandising! Merchandising!
Thank you for pressing the self-destruct button. This business will self-destruct in three minutes.
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hothmonster, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:09am

hhhmmm, an anti-capitalism movement, i see an opportunity to make some money!
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Richard (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:12am

FTFY
while there's something to be said for striking while the iron is hot,

while there's something to be said for striking while the irony is hot,
FTFY
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:16am

Re: If I didn't buy it an use it...
Few? Try all fronts. The whole system is a theft on the common heritage of the people.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:25am

Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
I think we've thoroughly established that power corrupts and money is power. What's more, money tends to eventually be concentrated into the hands of a few, which means that to remove corruption and power, we need to get rid of money.

Yeah, I know. The idea is completely reactionary, but it's true. We need to get rid of money altogether. When the incentive of money is removed and we utilize technology to eliminate poverty, hunger, illness, and want, we'll be free to form a whole new set of incentives that are aligned to improving ourselves through mutual collaboration.

"People working together cooperatively to achieve common beneficiary goals? Madness I tell you!" Progress is hindered today because people only will create something beneficial to us if they can make money from it. If it's not profitable, it doesn't come to fruition. Alternative energy, medical breakthroughs, technology, and agriculture are all hindered from prospering because the costs or lack of profit potential.

Battery technology languishes in unused patents because the oil companies make so much money from their petroleum products and solar/wind/etc. would provide free abundant energy that would make their products irrelevant, but would arguably make life here much more sustainable. It isn't because solar, wind, tidal, and geothermal are impractical. It's because they're unprofitable, but very beneficial to us nevertheless.

Pharma profits from people continually being in need of drugs to fight off and mitigate illnesses. If they found a way to cure disease and death, they'd have no one to sell their drugs to, but people would be healthier and live a lot longer (if not indefinitely).

We have the technology to provide food to everyone on this planet with the resources we already have and no one has to go hungry, but Monsanto wants to be the only source of food in the world so they can rake in all the money and thus, power over all other people.

It's money that is the source of all of our problems and it is money that we need to be rid of to take the power away from those that rule us and treat us like resources to be exploited so they can have their comfortable seat at the top. If you agree and want to be free from the shackles of money (which is just debt slavery in disguise), spread the idea around that money is not conducive to a sustainable society.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:25am

Re: FTFY
I see what you did there!
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:29am

Adbusters
The website is http://www.adbusters.org/
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:37am

Re: Re: Re: REALLY?
Okay, well they're different things. So no, he doesn't get paid every time someone says OWS on the news. Just like Nike doesn't get paid every time I say Nike.

A copyright protects an original work; a patent protects an invention; trademark identifies the source of the goods.

It's the difference between owning a word and owning the definition of a word.
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Jeff Rowberg (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:40am

Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
I'm very, very curious as to how you think a society would function without money.

I'm also curious (genuinely so) as to exactly how you would define each of those four things you propose getting rid of: trademarks, copyright, patents, and money. (Incidentally, I'm with you on copyright and patents, but not trademarks, and definitely not money.)

I think you are not identifying money for what it truly is. I'm not talking about government-backed fiat money, which is what we have and is a very large part of the problem. Real money is simply a tool which allows me to trade efficiently with you by making it so that we don't need to each have exactly what the other desires (known as the "double coincidence of wants"). That is all real money is. If you eliminate money, all you'll accomplish is to make trade more difficult.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:45am

Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Getting rid of money would not solve the aggressive, competitive, ultimately Capitalist nature of humanity.

The hippies tried, and they weren't the first. They fail because they are trying to treat the symptoms, though treating the actual problem is a pretty tall order. Good luck with that.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:50am

Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Not only did the hippies fail, but they are currently make up much of the supposed 1%. When you are young and idealistic it all sounds nice, and a little later on you realize that you like to have a nice car and live in a decent house, and you like your latte in the morning. Suddenly, the tree hugging, anti-corporate thoughts you have been pumping out seem out of touch with reality. It isn't reality that changes, it's just the completion of a phase, or the end of a real world education where you suddenly graduate to actually living.
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:51am

Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
What about all the asshats? I contend that people will still be asshats without money.

Could we start small and just break up the current strategy of money=legislation? We could use a different system like, I dunno... voting. One vote per person. That way we could start to make decisions that benefit everyone, instead of those that help themselves.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:58am

"While he has yet to mass produce any �Occupy Wall Street� product"

So now we have a trademark troll.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:05am

Albany NY police mutiny
Police refuse to obey orders to disperse crowd. News being whitewashed.
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:06am

Re: Serious security concerns
Prolly just an ICE jackboot.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:06am

Re: REALLY?
"that means news medias would have to pay them every time that phrase was used"

Big media is subject to the higher court, because they have money for lawyers and they are part of the nobility. This sort of protectionism only applies to defenseless individuals without the resources to defend themselves in court.
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:09am

Re:
I can at least respect the honesty of a sociopath who will admit that they are just in it for the money

So wanting money makes you a sociopath nowadays? Ultimately, all the protesters want is money.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:14am

Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Automated technology and abundant resources through sustainable resource management is how it works. You don't need money if you already have what you need through renewable and sustainable systems. Since you don't need money, you don't need laws that protect the acquisition of it either (i.e. Trademark, copyright, patent). You also have no reason to trade, since everything you need is provided.

I think it is that most people don't know what money really is. Civilization did just fine before money came along. When the people needed food, they grew/hunted/gathered it. When people needed shelter, they built it. They didn't bother with money to do this, they just gathered the resources needed and did it. Money is just a tool for controlling access to resources. If you need money, you are a slave to it because in a system that requires money, you can't get what you need unless you have it. Your belief in the necessity for money is one of indoctrination. You've been told all of your life that money is necessary and you take it as fact.

Apes, dolphins, and other intelligent animals already live under a moneyless economy. They help themselves by helping each other to improve each other member's condition. It's a collaborative society versus a competitive one. It was humans that realized they could put themselves ahead by exploiting the many that they could achieve even greater prosperity by using money as the control mechanism. The golden rule applies: "He who has the gold, makes the rules". Money allows people to concentrate that money and thus, consolidate power. So long as money is in use, people will attempt to leverage it to exploit the many and elevate themselves above the rest.
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:17am

Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
It is much simpler to trade money than to trade...oh say, bushels of wheat. But there will always be some commodity that will be traded/hoarded. I work for an electric utility...how would I get paid for my service...watts? It might as well be dollar bills.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:21am

Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
They didn't have the technology we have today. Technology can be used to automate the processes required to provide that which everyone needs. When people don't have to work to feed, clothe, shelter, and heal themselves, it frees them to do things that are a great many times better for humanity and they would do it because everything they do for others also serves to benefit them too.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:31am

Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
You're thinking in terms of trade. There would be no need for trade when technology provides all that is needed. Energy is probably the most abundant resource of all. Beneath the Earth's crust is more energy than we can use and we aren't even taking advantage of it because money says it isn't cost efficient and profitable. But it is resource efficient! It's also renewable and sustainable. The tidal forces of our sun's gravity constantly renews the geothermal power stored in our planet's mantle through constant shearing. The sun itself beams enough energy in one our than the world can use in one year. Then there's also wind and tidal power. Any combination of these technologies would free us from inefficient fossil fuels that we could just as well leave in the ground.
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hothmonster, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:33am

Re: Re:
some want money, some just want money to not have so much power over our government
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Almost Anonymous (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:34am

Rally together everyone!
Actually, this would look pretty damn good on a t-shirt:

Occupy [street|city|state|country|whatever]

Not so good on a t-shirt, but very meta:

Occupy "Occupy [x]" slogans!

Also, have you ever typed/written a word so many times that it doesn't look like a real word anymore? "Occupy" only needed three iterations for that effect to kick in for me.
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:40am

Re: Re:
No, I think that says a sociopath will admit to having disregard for the rights of others. Money just happens to be the goal they're stepping over others to get in this case.

I don't think the reciprocal statement is necessarily true, especially if someone feels bad about their revolting actions. Although I'm not sure which is worse: not having the feelings, or choosing to disregard them.
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Chris, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:41am

Prior Art
Are not all of these things and more being sold on zazzle by hundreds of different sellers. Can you trademark something that is already part of the public lexicon?
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:41am

Re: Serious security concerns
So? Every teaparty rally had obvious guns shown, even loaded. The only safety concern is that since the protestors aren't corporate shills , they won't comply with illegal police actions.
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hothmonster, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:42am

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
well after the apocalypse we can set up a moneyless system. But unless the majority or humanity is obliterated I don't really see us dropping currency. Mainly because as you said the money has the power and no way will all the people with the power be willing give it up even though it would be for the greater good. They would just convince the rabble to call you a socialist or a communist while they continue to profit off the backs of the poor.

I certainly agree with you but if you really want to fix the problem you have take it one step at a time not push straight for step 100. Because while it would be wonderful to get the world to drop the ghost of money and just work for the betterment of those around them, I unfortunetetly no longer think, that humanity has it in them without a long long time readjusting how we look at the world and developing a some empathy.
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Jeff Rowberg (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:42am

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
I agree that the rosy society you desire might be possible, except that your the condition that "people don't have to work to feed, clothe, shelter, and heal themselves" must apply universally to everyone, and we are very, very far from that point. As long as some human labor is required to provide the things that people need, you'll never get by without paying those people for the effort. The world does not and will never run entirely on altruism. If no work is required, ever, then maybe payments aren't necessary. But such a condition will never be met.
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hothmonster, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:47am

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
you graduate to living when you turn against everything you stand for and accept your role as either a cog in the machine, or, worse yet, as in your "example" the engine of the machine? I hope I am never alive then.

Also surely some people who considered themselves hippies are rich now, but do you really think the 1% is mostly once hardcore free-loving, drug using, anti-capitalistic activists who simply woke up and realized they couldn't win and should just become everything the fought against?

Or is it that any thoughts of us loving your fellow man and your planet and doing whats best for your fellow man rather then yourself are completely out of touch with reality?

Either way you make most pessimists seem cheery.
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MrWilson, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:50am

Re: Re:
No, I'm not saying that wanting money is sociopathic. I'm saying there are pre-existing sociopaths who also want money but who are honest about it. They don't feel the need to justify their greed because they don't have a conscience.

The people who do feel the need to justify their greed clearly know that doing unethical things for monetary gain is wrong.

And I wouldn't categorize OWS protesters as being greedy. They don't want more money than they need. They want a fair system where they aren't penalized for not being rich. It's the people who just want more and more no matter how much they attain that are the problem.
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Trademark Vs Patent, 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:53am

They forgot to patent it
Hang on a minute everyone - it's a neat move to trademark "Occupy Wall Street", but I've just filed for a patent for:

"A method that allows a body or group of people to occupy a physical space in order to register their approbation of another group of people, or set of social values"

Now when I get my patent, we're going to see a lot of lawyering.
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:07pm

Re: Prior Art
That's probably up to the trademark examiner who gets the application. I would certainly toss it out, but if I worked at the USPTO they'd have to hire a second guy to stand by my desk with a fire extinguisher because my "rejected" stamp would burst into flames so frequently.
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Do we have the resources/technology to harness these infinite sources? Plus, for some things to work we would need infinite resources to devote to it.
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Apes

I saw a Planet Earth episode where the chimps attacked a neighboring band for breaching their territory...and cannibalized those caught. That doesn't sound like collaboration. Sure, they don't have money...but they have territorial pissings.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:34pm

Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
While it is hard to do, and there have been many failures along the way, I think either by choice or by necessity, people are going to find ways to survive with fewer transactions. The shareable movement, which embraces sharing, recycling, and downsizing, is find ways to have people lessen unnecessary and expensive consumption.

People are turning backyards and empty lots into vegetable gardens. Installed solar will reduce the need for big power plants. When you have lots of empty houses and lot of broke people, they either team up and share homes or the lived in abandoned ones as they can. Hike the price of gasoline high enough, and people look for cheaper ways to get around. As the cost of medical care continues to rise, people do without so the market for all those new medical inventions shrinks.

The past 30 years of US prosperity has largely been funded by consumer debt. Take that away and the economy will get down to basics pretty fast.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
I don't doubt that we have some work to do to make it happen, but it's a far cry better system than the one we live in. With people free to take the common heritage, even encouraged to, and build on it, we would likely see a level of progress and prosperity that has never been seen. Unfortunately, we are at a crossroads right now and the upcoming events may well determine whether we survive or destroy ourselves.

I think the first steps may be to take the corruption out of government by blocking the power that money has on it. If people can't buy buy the government, the rich will have much diminished power. We're going to have to work to phase out money and phase in a resource based economy. If we do it right, me might live to hear the grandchildren of our grandchildren laugh at how backwards we once were.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:40pm

There's hardly a market for these goods
What supporter of the Occupy Movement is going to buy a commercially sold product? If they want a t-shirt that says that, they are going to make it themselves or get it for free or trade from people at these sit-ins.

The trademark holders can try to sue everyone who makes an Occupy Wall St. merchandise maker, but there won't be any money for them to collect and it will give more visibility to the protest.

And I would think it would be hard for them to claim they were they were the first to use the trademark and therefore had any right to ownership.
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el_segfaulto (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:44pm

Re:
The problem is that it is impossible to not participate in the system. Communication, transportation, and the basic necessities of life have been set up to require the infrastructure created by big business. Calling the OWS types hypocritical is a bit of a stretch (you didn't say it in your post, but I've read it elsewhere) since there isn't a way to organize a mass group of people without utilizing the system in some way.
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el_segfaulto (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:45pm

Re: Merchandising! Merchandising!
Would that make Big Business the ship full of assholes?
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Berenerd (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 12:55pm

Re: Merchandising! Merchandising!
DH might object to you using that phrase...
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 1:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Alright, bad analogy, but humans did exist before money. So there's no reason why we can't do without it.
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Jeff Rowberg (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 1:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Automated technology and abundant resources through sustainable resource management is how it works. You don't need money if you already have what you need through renewable and sustainable systems.

Who exactly is managing the resources? That takes time and effort. Could such a system, which would necessarily be built on top of a dynamic and varying ecosystem for natural resources, really be able to run smoothly and perpetually with no human oversight?

Also, money doesn't only enable efficient trade for the things we need; it also enables efficient trade for the things we want. How would a moneyless (or tradeless) system accommodate people's desires for things not strictly necessary for survival? Who makes the call for whether something is necessary for survival or not? Scarce (finite) resources have limited supply by definition, and if more than one person wants them, those people may not all be able to have all of said resources that they want. Prices and trade (made efficient by real money) allow for an orderly, negotiated, voluntary distribution of scarce resources.

People will still want things that are in limited supply, whether they need them or not. Voluntary trade and dynamic prices make this possible. Unless and until every resource imaginable is effectively infinite, this is how the system works.

Since you don't need money, you don't need laws that protect the acquisition of it either (i.e. Trademark, copyright, patent). You also have no reason to trade, since everything you need is provided.

As I said before, you still need money, because you still won't have everything you want even if by some extraordinary miracle you do have everything you need. Human desires don't go away. We want stuff. In some cases, we invent stuff. Then other people want that stuff. That's how it's supposed to work. Trade is a core feature of any functioning society, precisely because the resources we all want are finite. There is always a reason to trade unless and until all resources are effectively infinite.

I think it is that most people don't know what money really is. Civilization did just fine before money came along. When the people needed food, they grew/hunted/gathered it. When people needed shelter, they built it. They didn't bother with money to do this, they just gathered the resources needed and did it. Money is just a tool for controlling access to resources.

I agree that most people don't know what money really is today, but I disagree with your definition. Money is not a tool for controlling access to resources (that's what property ownership is for, also critical to any society based on scarce resources). Real money is only ONLY a way to facilitate trade more efficiently. I don't want to have to pay you in cows just because you only need cows, because I don't have cows. I only have shoes, but you don't need shoes. So we use silver or gold instead, because it is rare, real, divisible, and easy to identify as authentic. You can use the silver or gold to buy the things that you want, and I can use it to buy what I want. This is what makes it useful as money.

To the degree that "civilization did just fine before money came along" and "they didn't bother with money to [find/use/build what they needed]," they succeeded in spite of the lack of money, not in any way because of it. Do you really think that everybody did everything on their own, without negotiating (key word) with others? Not everyone is good at harvesting raw materials. Not everyone is good at cultivating farmland. Not everyone is good at preparing food. Not everyone is good at making and administering medicine. Trade (and money) allows each person to focus on becoming especially efficient at a subset of skills, which they can then trade with others in exchange for the goods and services they want.

In small, self-sustaining societies, barter is common and can certainly work, since there is usually at least one person to be found in the group who specializes in any necessary skill. Maybe not everything can happen as fast as everyone would like, but there's at least one go-to guy (or girl) for farming, cooking, cleaning, tailoring, doctoring, animal care, and anything else--often even luxury items or services. Such societies may function without money, but the introduction of money (real money, not debt-as-money) can only make things more efficient. Real money is not a government invention; it systematically arises out of a genuine human need. There is a reason that just about every society ever develops some kind of a currency.

If you need money, you are a slave to it because in a system that requires money, you can't get what you need unless you have it.

Again, this has nothing to do with money. This has to do with the reality of finite resources. The stuff we need and want is not unlimited. Whether we have money to facilitate efficient trade or not, this is still the case. Nobody ever needs money, per se. They need (or want) the stuff they plan to buy with money.

Your belief in the necessity for money is one of indoctrination. You've been told all of your life that money is necessary and you take it as fact.

No, it's not indoctrination, it's a solution to a real problem. It's a way to streamline trade, which itself is a way for finite resources to change hands without violence. In a world of limited, scarce stuff, trade is far better than the alternative. Money makes it easy to trade.

Apes, dolphins, and other intelligent animals already live under a moneyless economy. They help themselves by helping each other to improve each other member's condition. It's a collaborative society versus a competitive one.

They do live in a moneyless economy, true. But if you think that nature is not predominantly competitive, you need to watch some more Animal Planet or National Geographic or something. There is a reason that natural selection and concept of "survival of the fittest" are so universally explained by observing nature. Yes, some groups of animals act together for the protection of the group, but this is hardly altruism. This is an effort to continue their own species. They still have to fight with other animals (often those within their own small group, let alone their species) for the limited resources they deal with, namely territory and food.

It was humans that realized they could put themselves ahead by exploiting the many that they could achieve even greater prosperity by using money as the control mechanism. The golden rule applies: "He who has the gold, makes the rules". Money allows people to concentrate that money and thus, consolidate power. So long as money is in use, people will attempt to leverage it to exploit the many and elevate themselves above the rest.

As a rule, people will attempt to leverage anything they can to exploit others and elevate themselves above the rest. Money is not necessary to make this happen, and its removal will not prevent it from happening. It will only make voluntary trade more cumbersome, which to me seems more like a step in the wrong direction.

All this being said, I do believe that the fiat money system we have, where the dollar is worth what the government says it is simply because they say it, and new money is constantly introduced into the economy in the form of debt by fractional reserve banking and the Federal Reserve, is absolutely terrible and the source (or at least the enabler) of a huge portion of our problems, and at least most of what OWS is currently protesting, whether or not they can identify it as such. I do believe that money should not be able to affect political outcomes, since then you end up with corporatism, destructive regulations, endless inflation, etc. All bad.

However, the solution isn't to remove money from the equation. That will do nothing. The solution is to remove government power from the equation, so that no matter how much money lobbyists or businesses spend to buy power, there is simply no power for them to buy.
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Jacob Cooper (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 1:44pm

The OWSers should put on their Che Guevara t-shirts and protest the guys who hijacked their revolution in order to sell t-shirts.
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IronM@sk, 26 Oct 2011 @ 1:51pm

Re: Re:
I am sure they could of just made t-shirts

I don't think so, but they could have just made t-shirts, I suppose.
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Chosen Reject (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 2:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
I think one of the problems with your plan is that you are focused too much on money as currency, and not money as a form of power. I'll grant that money is power, because that is exactly what it is. When I have $5, I can command someone to make me a sandwich. If I have $100 I can command someone to make me a Kindle. If I have $1,000 I can command someone to make me a laptop, and so on. But if you get rid of money, you simply move that power to something else. I now have food, that you don't, or I have blankets, or animal hides, or what have you.

You talk about humans living without money before, but society has never lived without some means of trading, and it is that trading that is where the power lies. Whether it is bartering, or currency, or some other system, if I have something others want, then I have the ability to gain power over others.

You can talk about automation to feed, clothe and shelter people, but who is going to build all of that automation? What do they get for their work? Who fixes it when it's broken? What is their recompense when doing so? And assuming automation can work, who decides what is enough? And assume automation makes "enough" for everyone, who decides who gets to live on the beaches of Hawaii and who lives in Oklahoma? There aren't nearly enough beaches for all the people who would like water front access to do so. There are going to be questions of land use, since a lot of that land has to be used for food, but no one really wants to live in Antarctica? And if limiting the population is the answer, who decides who gets to reproduce and how often? If anybody gets to decide the answers to those, and many other, questions, you've given them power over others.
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Chosen Reject (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 2:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
There would be no need for trade when technology provides all that is needed.
And what is all needed? Do you know where we can have all the beach front property for all of the people that want? And a pony for every 5 year old child? And do you have enough food for everyone? I'm not talking about rice and beans, I'm talking a steak and caviar and good wine for everyone that wants it.

You can call those things wants instead of needs, but I see two problems with that:
1) If someone other than me gets to decide what my wants and needs are, then they have power over me.
2) Nobody wants to live with only the very basic necessities.
But I repeat myself. You have to stop looking at wants and needs as two separate categories. There is no such thing as a need in and of itself (ask the people on hunger strikes how much they "need" food vs just wanting it). Your needs are nothing more than wants that are necessary to reach some goal of yours. We call food a need because most of us want to survive. By the same token we call air and water needs. A place to keep the rain off our heads is a need because we want to stay dry. A fire is a need because we want to be warm and we want to have cooked food. Clothes are a need because we want to stay warm, or because we don't want to expose ourselves.

Again, if anybody but me gets to decide that I shouldn't get what I want means that there is power to be had over others, and if that is the case, then your plan doesn't do anything to fix that power = corruption equation.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 2:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
"What do they get for their work?"

They get to never want for anything ever again. That's what they get! If free food, energy, healthcare, shelter, and education for life isn't enough for you to do a the work to get you there, then you have the wrong priorities. The thing is, you're going to have to let go of your attachment to material wealth if you want to live in peace and prosperity.

"And assume automation makes "enough" for everyone, who decides who gets to live on the beaches of Hawaii and who lives in Oklahoma?"

A good point, which is another problem to deal with. Maybe technology can solve it, or perhaps higher sensibilities will have to win out. For one thing, holding on to a concept of ownership is anachronistic. You can't own the land beneath you. It's common property. It didn't always belong to someone until those with the concept of property came along the declared ownership of it. The Native Americans thought we were nuts to think we could "own" the land. And not everyone wants to live on the beach or near water, but many would like access to it. With technology, we might not even need Hawaii. We might be able to simulate tropical environments or build recreational facilities. I hear there's lots of room in the middle of the ocean near the equator. Maglev trains can get you there in a short matter of time.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 2:52pm

Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
You know, I have been thinking about the concept of money lately. Gold is soaring, but it has never appealed to me as an investment because it doesn't have much usefulness other than to represent value. It's worth something because people decide it is worth something. It's not actually a survival good like food.

People did figure out that they could use money in place of gold and assign value to that. Money is as valuable as people say that it is.

On the hand, we are increasingly living in a world where people don't actually hold gold or money. They just transfer numbers from one computer to another. It's all kind of magic. So we could go back to a gold standard where we are limited by the amount of gold in the world. Or we could go the opposite direction and begin trading things in virtual terms. And that's what the sharable economy is developing into. Computers are facilitating more exchanges that don't involve money at all.

And when you look at the world of high finance, you see that people have been leveraging and using arbitrage to create a world where nothing is actually based on anything. It's a house of cards. We are sort of on the verge of realizing that those on Wall Street don't really control anything other than the physical objects they possess. Once hackers start making war on the financial system and illustrate that there's nothing really there, we may have some interesting repercussions. If the people don't hand over power to those who hold the finances, maybe those people will no longer have the same position in society.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 2:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
You can't own the land beneath you. It's common property.

There are some interesting property issues playing out in the energy wars. Traditionally conservatives have been in favor of property rights, and drilling for oil and gas. As it is turning out, those are clashing. In Colorado, people may own the land, but not the mineral rights, so they are finding that energy companies are drilling on their ranches or in their backyards and they have no say in the matter. In Nebraska, farmers are discovering that a Canadian company plans to laying a pipeline through their property. In Texas cities are discovering that water they wanted to use is going to energy companies instead.
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Richard (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 3:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Money isn't that bad in principle. Would you not agree that is is useful to exchange favours. (e.g. You fix my computer and I'll mow your lawn.) Money is simply a means of remembering (and potentially transferring) such a debt. This allows the exchange to be more flexible.

The problems arise when people think that money is wealth and forget that it is actually debt.

Even without money I think that the greedy and unscrupulous would still find a way to exploit the rest of us.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 3:27pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Even without money I think that the greedy and unscrupulous would still find a way to exploit the rest of us.

But a lot of what Americans buy we don't really need. There are likely enough clothes circulating that as a country we could survive without more. There are so many unoccupied homes that if we moved in together, we might be able to provide housing for everyone who needs it without building more. If every piece of land was turned into a garden, we could do a better job of feeding ourselves.

Americans have gotten themselves in a fix by borrowing money they don't have to buy stuff they don't need. That's again what the sharable movement is all about. We don't have to be exploited if we adjust our lifestyles to fit reality.

The big problem I see is health care. You can greatly reduce your expenses by being healthy, but it is hard to operate on yourself if you need that. There's a level of expertise in health care that is hard to duplicate, though training more nurse practitioners and allowing them to practice would be one way to reduce costs.
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Chosen Reject (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 3:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
You can't own the land beneath you.
I do for as long as it is beneath me. Now who gets to decide how long I get to stay on top of it? What if someone else wants to stand on the spot that I'm on? Do I have to get off, do you force me to "let go of [my] attachment"? Wouldn't that defeat the point of living in peace?

And not everyone wants to live on the beach or near water, but many would like access to it.
Absolutely true, some people would rather live off in the mountains, but there are many more people that would like to live in tropical climates with nearby access to recreational water use. So much more people in fact, that there just is not enough tropical recreation water beaches in the world. But who says the people who are already there have to get off. You can't magically make everyone want to share that equally with everyone. Your only recourse then is to force people to share, but that defeats your plan.

With technology, we might not even need Hawaii.
Are we talking about doing something now or so many years in the future that your grandchildren will be long gone? Sitting around looking at pictures of Hawaii in a climate controlled room with wave and seagull sounds is a long way off from actually being there. How do you propose simulating scuba diving in some old shipwreck in tropical waters amongst dolphins and fish? Note, I've never done any of that, but it would be awesome, so if you could come up with this soon, I'd be much obliged.

I hear there's lots of room in the middle of the ocean near the equator.
So in order to satisfy my wants, and many others, we're going to further encroach on ocean wildlife, as if our oceanic pollution isn't enough? Or will you use force to stop me from doing that so that we don't encroach any further?

Don't get me wrong. We have lots of problems in the world, and they need to be fixed, but we it needs to be done by limiting the abuse of power, not by dreaming up schemes that only work if everyone everywhere decides to be nice everytime.
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Chosen Reject (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 3:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
If free food, energy, healthcare, shelter, and education for life isn't enough for you to do a the work to get you there, then you have the wrong priorities.
What free food? Rice and beans or steak and caviar? How much energy? It's obviously not infinite, so it has to be regulated in some way right? We can't all be running our own Large Hadron Collider in the name of free education. And speaking of education, eventually that education is going to mean we come up with something even better than whatever already exists in this utopia. Who gets to have those things on day one, or do we hold back on giving anyone the new better thing until there is enough for everyone?
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro, 26 Oct 2011 @ 5:49pm

Re: �...when a man was seen in the park with an assault rifle.�
But I thought the �Constitutional right to bear arms� was precisely to allow you to protect yourself from Government oppression, wasn�t it? So that they couldn�t take away your �freedom�.

Yet, point a gun at a representative of the Government, and they have no hestitation in shooting back and jailing or killing you.

Second Amendment = hollow, chest-beating posturing, nothing more.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:14pm

Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Trade should have died back in the 1920's. Sadly that is not the case, and the reason why the world is fucked up as it currently is.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
"However, the solution isn't to remove money from the equation. That will do nothing. The solution is to remove government power from the equation, so that no matter how much money lobbyists or businesses spend to buy power, there is simply no power for them to buy."

Tell that to union busting tugs of the past. The power is money, money is power. its a simple formula.

You don't grasp what his proposing because you don't grasp a world so different from what you're used to.
Technology has eliminated all of humanities problems sine the 20's. The reason nothing has changed is because people didn't change with it.
To a few on top, that suits them just fine...
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Humans kill too, that won't change. But that doesn't mean everything has to stay the same.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Humans kill too, that won't change. But that doesn't mean everything has to stay the same.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:22pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
and debt is the problem. The few on top hold everyone else as debt slaves.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
The problem you have with what he's saying is, you're still thinking inside the current mainframe of what you know.
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Anonymous Coward, 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Live on farm, them we'll talk.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
All food. Food is food. Energy is abundant if you know where to get it. The core of the Earth is generating about 2000 Zeta Joules of geothermal power and we only use .5 Zeta Joules. The tidal force of the sun's gravity constantly renews that energy. So long as the sun exists, we will have free abundant energy. Pollution free and ever-lasting as the sun's gravity.

You act like everyone will even have the know-how to operate the LHC or that it even will be the only one. There aren't enough people interested in particle physics to overwhelm the availability of particle accelerators. There are also people that want to do other useful things besides particle physics. You're just making arguments on pure hyperbole.

None of this is going to happen overnight. That's unrealistic and a poor attempt to discredit the idea with unrealistic standards. It's going to take time to transition from a currency based economy to a resource based one. The technology needs to be developed, and infrastructure will need to be built. But it's going to have to start with skilled and intelligent people getting together and agreeing that it needs to be done at any cost. The profit motivated money culture is not going to spawn an altruistic moneyless world. Their incentives are completely contradictory.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:45pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Yes, geothermal energy. We can drill deep enough in just about anywhere to tap into the latent heat of our planet. But since it would provide free energy it's would put fossil fuels and nuclear fuels out of business. They can't have that. In fact, anything that makes energy abundant has been fought, bought, and locked up so it never comes to fruition. There's thousands of times more available energy under the Earth's crust than we could foresee to use with today's rate of consumption. There's enough resources to do it and as technology improves, we can stretch those resources further, which is why Malthusian economics never proved that we would exceed our resources when it was predicted.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:47pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
That's just a whole lot of hyperbole and loose interpretations.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 10:52pm

Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Good points there. When the crops wither, the animals die, and the water dries up, will you be able to eat your money? That right there makes it clear that you don't need money to live, you need those other things and they don't exist because of money. We are the only species on this planet that has to pay to live here.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
It all boils down to this. People will create technology that provides all with the basics of life and then they collaborate in an altruistic culture to provide that which expands and improves the human condition. It will start with basics, but will expand to encompass all things a person could want or need. Technology will expand the utility of existing resources making what we have more useful. There won't be a need for "who decides what" because people will need to develop a self governance that compels every person to act in the best interest of the collective whole rather than inwardly about themselves.
There's not enough Hawaii for people? Then technology will expand the supply of tropical land to occupy. So long as the carrying capacity of the Earth isn't exhausted, people can have everything they can put their minds to. Technology adapts to solve every problem. That's what technology does, solves problems.

"Human desires don't go away. We want stuff."

We want stuff only because we have been programmed by advertising and business to want that stuff. It's not human nature, it's conditioning.

"Scarce (finite) resources have limited supply by definition"

Water is finite, but it's not scarce. Highly renewable resources are abundant resources, thus they are not scarce. Scarcity is a tool employed by those that wish to profit.

"There is always a reason to trade unless and until all resources are effectively infinite."

No there isn't. That's just something that has been drilled into your head your entire life to believe without question. That's the model for a competitive culture. One where people try to hold goods as rivalrous. Air and water are not rivalrous. Everyone can have water and air. My having it doesn't diminish your access to it.

"Money is not a tool for controlling access to resources (that's what property ownership is for, also critical to any society based on scarce resources)."

That's not true. Property cannot exist without money. In order for something to be property, an exchange has to be made. Something of yours is traded for something of theirs. Money is not limited to currency. If you exchange labor for land, those are both applicable as money in that particular exchange. Therefore, money blocks people from having that which they need when they don't have the money.

"As a rule, people will attempt to leverage anything they can to exploit others and elevate themselves above the rest."

No, that is a behavior created by competition in a zero-sum economic system. The human mind is adapted to collaborate, not compete. That is why we have language, art, music. Collaboration is what has progressed human society, not money.

"The solution is to remove government power from the equation, so that no matter how much money lobbyists or businesses spend to buy power, there is simply no power for them to buy."

That will only delay the problem. The only real solution is to take away the power of money by taking money out of society altogether.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
It might have were it not for the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. That's when the debt slavery machine really got going.
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Greevar (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:47pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
I don't expect an overnight transformation. That would be naive. If the change is going to happen, people with the ability to get things done will have to com together and agree to make it happen despite the costs. A good work is in itself worth doing for its own sake.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 26 Oct 2011 @ 11:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
For those who want to explore new economic models, here's a place to start.

How Peer to Peer Communities will change the World � Interview with Michel Bauwens, P2P Foundation founder.: "In my opinion, for-profit companies are inherently non-sustainable in their DNA, because they depend on scarcity, i.e. abundance destroys scarcity and therefore markets; one particular pernicious practice is planned obsolescence. But a open design community has no such perverse incentives and will inherently design for sustainability. It will also design for inclusion, to allow others to add to the design; and finally, it will also conceive more distributed forms of manufacturing, that do not require financial and geographic centralisation."
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Butcherer79 (profile), 27 Oct 2011 @ 4:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
"but they have territorial pissings"

They listen to Nirvana?
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Butcherer79 (profile), 27 Oct 2011 @ 4:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Without money, yes, but not without knowing the values of their possesions, humans have always traded items which they consider to be lesser value than the items they wish to receive (someone with too much food would consider trading some, as it's of low value to them, to someone who can offer shelter, or protection or pretty much anything that they needed to survive)
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Butcherer79 (profile), 27 Oct 2011 @ 4:47am

Re: Albany NY police mutiny
maybe with a broadbrush?
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Jeff Rowberg (profile), 27 Oct 2011 @ 7:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
I think one of the problems with your plan is that you are focused too much on money as currency, and not money as a form of power. I'll grant that money is power, because that is exactly what it is. When I have $5, I can command someone to make me a sandwich. If I have $100 I can command someone to make me a Kindle. If I have $1,000 I can command someone to make me a laptop, and so on.

This is not exactly true. You can't do command someone to make you a sandwich simply because you have $5. They also have to want your $5 more than they want to keep their time and sandwich ingredients. The same is true for the larger $ value examples.

It's true that without the $5, it is unlikely that someone will make you a sandwich. But having $5 in no way guarantees, all by itself, that someone will make you a sandwich.
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Greevar (profile), 27 Oct 2011 @ 10:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
Not true. Native Americans lived in cooperation with each other within their own tribe. They shared all that they had and worked together to achieve equilibrium with nature. They only traded with outsiders, not amongst their own people. They didn't care for the concept of property and thus money.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 27 Oct 2011 @ 10:21am

Re: Trademarks, copyright, patents, money. They need to go away.
What's interesting about the Occupy movement isn't just the protests, but also the discussions about new economics. Occupy Wall Street Considers A New Economy

Yes, there have been Utopian visions over the centuries, and most don't work as planned, but the Internet has changed the way people connect, so there may be new opportunities. Also, the concept of ownership is changing. People are discovering that if they have access, they don't necessarily need to own it. So they are sharing cars, sharing office and living spaces, doing mobile food trucks rather than leasing restaurant space, streaming music rather than buying it, and so on.

And as I mentioned in a different comment, we are learning just how little high finance is based on real money and assets these days. In other words, we're already living in a moneyless economy and all that we have done is to confer power to those who have more numbers in the computer system. As we begin to realize those numbers are not tied to any assets, our whole concept of money may begin to change.
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