US Can Extradite UK Student For Copyright Infringement, Despite Site Being Legal In The UK
from the scary-scary-stuff dept
Want to understand just how insane things may get under SOPA/PIPA? Just take a look at what's already happening under today's laws. Back in 2010, one of the first websites that Homeland Security's ICE (Immigrations & Customs Enforcement) group seized was TVShack.net. TVShack was a site that collected links to TV shows. Certainly, many of those shows were likely to be infringing -- but TVShack did not host the content at all, it merely linked to it. Richard O'Dwyer, the guy who ran the site, was a student building an interesting project over in the UK. However, the US Department of Justice decided that he was not only a hardened criminal, but one who needed to be tried on US soil. Thus, it began extradition procedures. Even worse, nearly identical sites in the UK had already been found legal multiple times -- with the court noting that having links to some infringing content was certainly not criminal copyright infringement. That makes things even more ridiculous, because extradition is only supposed to be allowed for activities that are criminal in both the US and the UK.But, seriously, think about how insane this is. With all the problems in the world, the US was spending time trying to extradite a UK student to the US, because he set up a site that had links to some infringing material. Is this really the best use of US law enforcement's time?
O'Dwyer has been fighting the extradition attempt... but today, unfortunately, a UK judge ruled against him.
District Judge Purdy said in his ruling: "There are said to be direct consequences of criminal activity by Richard O'Dwyer in the USA albeit by him never leaving the north of England.O'Dwyer can and almost certainly will appeal this decision. But this is just ridiculous. And this is under existing laws. Just think what happens under SOPA/PIPA -- which are even more targeted at foreign sites. Do we really want the US government going around the world, dragging kids from their homes and taking them back to the US to throw them in jail... because they set up a web page with some links on it?
"Such a state of affairs does not demand a trial here if the competent UK authorities decline to act and does, in my judgment, permit one in the USA."
He added: "I reject all challenges advanced to this request. No bars or other challenge being raised or found, I send the case to the Secretary of State."
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Filed Under: copyright, doj, extradition, ice, jurisdiction, pipa, protect ip, richard o'dwyer, sopa, uk, us
Companies: tv-links, tvshack
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The implications...
So I have to ask... If the Hollywood movie industry is so great, why the hell are they looking to criminalize filesharing when they've made more money than anyone else? It makes no sense how one industry has so much power that they can destroy lives for nothing other than sharing a file on the internet.
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tvshack.net was awesome
It allowed my kids to watch plenty of old TV shows using a simple interface on the TV in the living room. If only there was a service out there that provided such a comprehensive solution (think: Spotify for TV) and that was easily integrated with any device.
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Re: The implications...
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The FUD here is absolutely breathtaking Masnick. Please cite the portion of SOPA and/or Protect IP that you claim will lead to this absurd assertion you make.
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There are scary times we live in
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He gets his studies interrupted and his time wasted and his finances screwed. The US taxpayer foots the bill for a farcical trial. The court system has real cases that don't get dealt with. And websites that do the exact same thing that this guy's website did will continue to operate and the entertainment industry won't get that precious extra sales that they're deluding themselves into thinking will happen if you just eliminate another pirate site. Even if the guy gets it dismissed after he's in the states, it's still a hardship just to get extradited. Even if, in his best scenario, he gets some kind of settlement for malicious prosecution (not that it would happen...), the taxpayer is still footing the bill.
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Er... how is it "absurd" when it's happening right in this case?
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It seems the long arm of the law
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Re:
Tell me with a straight face that our government, which has a long and documented history of distorting laws to suit their needs, won't use the additional power given to them by SOPA/PIPA to do exactly this sort of thing. If you honestly think they won't either you must be living under a rock.
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Re: There are scary times we live in
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Re: The implications...
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It's like if you live in the United Kingdom where copyright is legal and the United States Government wants to extradite you to the United States for something you did in the United Kingdom. In order to prosecute you or sue you, you have to be doing something illegal in the country you live in.
The United States cannot prosecute you for something you did in the United Kingdom. They're trying to subvert the laws of the United Kingdom.
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Re: There are scary times we live in
I no longer care about the leadership of my Country as that leadership obviously does not care about any of us.
I am turning 56 in 2 weeks and I feel real bad for all of you who are much younger.I am so sorry we Adults did not speak up enough to try and stop this but it has been coming for a long time.My Dad's Generation were the leaders in the early 70's and they have frakked up this Country so bad I wonder if it will ever get good.
SOPA/PIPA/OPEN/ICE = WAR !!!
You smart youngsters should make sure that the dirt behind these Bills and the dirt behind ICE is wikileaked for all to see and learn.
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Re: The implications...
In Thailand you can go to jail for insulting the monarch. So if I defame the Thai monarch in my blog, can Thailand extradite me?
In Switzerland it is illegal to publicly defame foreign heads of state. So if I defame the Thai monarch in my blog, can SWITZERLAND extradite me?
Basically it says that everyone in world is subject to the most restrictive law on the books, regardless of citizenship or country of residence. Imagine that you now have to abide by the rules of Yemen, China, and North Korea, all at the same time!
It continues this trend of making everyone a criminal so that anyone can be prosecuted for something.
It's bad policy. The US is in the wrong.
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I mean, we all know that an IP address is enough to go after someone so surely an e-mail from your account must mean you are a filthy pirate who needs to do hard time.
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Identity theft and child porn are illegal in the UK and perpetrators of such crimes are able to be convicted by their local jurisdictions.
The biggest absurdity in this case is that his website is not illegal in his own country.
This is the equivalent of the US extraditing an American citizen to hold trial in Iran because they posted an image depicting Muhammad, which isn't illegal in the US.
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Re:
I think I understand the point you are trying to make but it is not at all the same as what this guy was doing. First you talk of linking to personal bank info. Well banking info is a lot different than a tv show in a lot of ways and if you are too thick to understand that then there is little helping you.
As for illegal porn, well that depends on where you live on what that means. Some places any porn is illegal and so I doubt anyone really cares. If you are implying child porn as I assume you are then you really must be a moron. Hurting children for enjoyment is NOTHING AT ALL like watching a tv show online.
So your argument in the end is totally unrelatable to current topic and over the top stupid at best.
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Re:
*Ahem* Citation needed
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Re: Re: The old trolls say:
Anything + web = worse!
If I recall, many years ago it was anything + electricity = worse...
or was that anything + car = worse? Oh well.
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Re: Re: The implications...
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There appears to be a disturbing new trend in trolling, one in which the trolls no longer try to make other people look stupid, but try real hard to make themselves look stupid.
It's just...weird...but, uh, keep up the good work?
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Re: Re: The implications...
Britain agreeing with that for their own citizen? For something they've deemed legal? That's amazingly bad.
But the precedent it sets for anyone to do similar charges is bad all around.
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Slightly Misleading headline
"Firstly both TVShack websites were entirely in the hands of Richard O’Dwyer and his co conspirators requiring third parties to sign up to TVShack and be vetted before going further. Secondly he argues, unlike [TV-Links], there was no attempt to protect copyright, he, Richard O’Dwyer, knew materials were subject to copyright and actively taunted already cited efforts in June 2010 to seize TVShack.net."
Personally, I'm not sure the second part of that is relevant to the issue, and the first seems to be a very narrow interpretation of the law and, for example, could see ISPs lose their immunity under this law as they also "vet" their customers to a degree.
Hopefully, though, we'll now get a nice High Court or even Court of Appeal ruling on this issue, showing whether or not linking is illegal, and ruling how broad the 'mere conduit' defence is.
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
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Re: Re: There are scary times we live in
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100811/00361310577.shtml
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Re: Re:
I think that only makes sense if they are prosecuting the site's visitors who are in the US, but that's the argument.
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wow...
...but deporting illegal immigrants with felony records is off the table?!
Wow. Our laws and priorities in the US are completely out of whack.
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Re: Re:
Extradition is a rare event, so it would seem likely there is more involved in this matter than first meets the eye.
As for your constant reference to matters such as this being "legal" in the UK, if this was true then under the terms of the treaty the individual would not be subject to extradition.
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Re: Re: There are scary times we live in
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Re: The implications...
You mean like tax evaders, embezzlers and corrupt politicians?
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Re: Re: The implications...
I think those are synonymous.
Although, I can't remember the last time a corrupt politician actually spent time in federal prison.
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Re: Re: Re:
I hear the weather is nice there, though. Far better than the north of England!
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
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Re: Re: There are scary times we live in
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
wait, no you are not? it only ever applies for US companies? I see... go fuck yourself hypocritical bastard and keep forever wondering, why most of the world hate the USA
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Roll Reversal
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Re: Re: Re:
I a really disgusted with my Government over this and will be writing to my MP again.
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WTF?
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
Former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich: On Wednesday, December 7, 2011, Blagojevich was sentenced to 14 years in federal prison. He reports there in March.
Both were convicted on corruption charges.
Mind you this is a state that threatened someone with up to 75 years in prison (for "violating" wiretapping laws) for filming a cop in public.
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It's at the coming stages of the appeal that the rulings will be important.for reasons like setting precedent and defining what and how broadly the "mere conduit" can be interpreted.
I suspect it will be a while yet before Richard O'Dwyer sees the inside of an American court much less spends time in a jail.
By the way. Just to complicate things for Americans who don't know these things. Scotland has a separate and different criminal code from England and there are differences in Scots civil law too. Innocent before being proven guilty is carried on in both but there are important differences. So this ruling may not and probably does not apply UK wide.
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/s
Arrest the CEO of google and extradite him to the United States of Hollywood
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Unbelievable.
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Re:
This is happening under already-existing law, boy.
I didn't know you couldn't read as well as couldn't think.
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what about the reverse
A disaster that caused a gas pipeline to explode killing 8 people in SF has been found to be caused by various illegal and the company diverted funds collected from rate payers to pay themselves. Suppose some QC in the UK decides to prosecute the CEO and Board of the gas company various criminal charges because a UK citizen died in the explosion. Doubt the US courts would extradite these 1%-ers to the UK for trial. So Interpol sends some people to 'extradite them' with extreme prejudice. I can see this as a LAW & ORDER-UK episode in the near future.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
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Re: Re:
[citation needed]
I am very interested in seeing where it's stated that the laws of the United States are applicable to the entire population of the world.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The implications...
Of course I think they should add a troll rating system as well. Maybe like the star system just using trolls?
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Re: wow...
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Re: Roll Reversal
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No.
Not that I'm aware of. See United States v Rojadirecta
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See? Problem solved. That was easy. You're welcome.
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Re:
Keep playing stupid tho.
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United (Horror) Kingdom
Well based on this Court ruling today now every British citizen must obey United States Federal law no matter if they have been to the United States or not.
Then in the case of conflict of law systems then should a British citizen obey the law of the United Kingdom or that of the United States?
Is the law of the United States superior, equal to or lesser than the law of the United Kingdom?
Does this mean that UK citizen must also obey the laws of other extradition countries like Canada and Australia? If so then place these few dozen countries in order of the importance of their law systems and clarify how the vast degree of law system conflicts should be resolved.
The World has just become a strange and scary place.
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Re: Re: Re: There are scary times we live in
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
I agree with your final 2 statements, but your first assertion is way off. This is a HUGE deal. We're talking about extraditing a college student for setting up a website that links to other websites. This activity is perfectly legal in the country that he lives in. There is absolutely no "harm" that can be shown to any US company. This student participating in legal activity in his sovereign country of residence now faces the possibility of serving time in a US federal prison. How can you say that isn't a big deal? Extradition is setup to prosecute malicious intentional harm against another country. No harm could ever be shown in this case, if anything it's a civil matter not criminal, and it isn't against the law where the activity occurred. This is a very big deal and it is completely outrageous!
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Oh HELL YES, we do, because our private prison industry is still growing and they need to fill those beds!!!
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meh
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Special Relationship
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co-author of PIPA- interesting story link
http://www.dethronehatch.com/orrin-hatch-is-no-friend-of-the-internet/
This attempt by the Gov. to further control our lives will fail- it's a futile attempt against technology
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RE
most of the governments (as an Idea) are Analog, we need to digitize them.
The internet is the most world changing event, since huge meteors hit the Planet.
think about this folks, the Analog world cannot handle the digital one, it's not fast enough to keep up, Ever.
Communication used to take years and months, then weeks and days, then hours and minutes, now it's in seconds and nano seconds.
the Analog world is going to be surpassed and it can feel it
The US Government is the big Analog on the block and soon will feel pressure from all sides, this is one of the Many death spasms it is going through.
The whole analog world is soon to die.
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Vacation
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*According to big media calculations which, as we all know, are completely trustworthy.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Mike said: Do we really want the US government going around the world, dragging kids from their homes and taking them back to the US to throw them in jail... because they set up a webpage with some links on it?
You said: "Please cite the portion of SOPA and/or Protect IP that you claim will lead to this absurd assertion you make."
I pointed it out, and suddenly you're saying "don't break the law and you're fine". That's all fine and good. Don't break the law. But that ignores what you said. You wanted to know where SOPA can cause the absurd scenario that foreigners can be extradited for breaking US law. Here it is. Someone streams something and now they're breaking US criminal law (note, not necessarily the law of the land they live in).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The implications...
So like the Digital Economy Act and SOPA? Sigh.
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Re: Re:
I do not think Google is breaking any British law, so by the same argument I also do not think TVSHACK was committing any British law. If they were then he would have been charged and punished in GREAT BRITAIN.
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Re: meh
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The implications...
Yes, I hate the US government for what it has become and what it has made out of the USA, but it does not stop there. I'm from germany and we suffer under the same set of corrupt imbeciles in our own government and additionaly the giant politician trash heap EU. It has come now to the pointz, where I hate this entire world build of lies and deceit clad in righteousness and alleged moral superiority.
The real sad part is, regardless, what you want and believe, there is no place anymore to escape this totalitarian tendencies, because its either already there or banging on the doors via international treaties, obligations or whatever big business likes to have.
And the real sad part is, that all of this is documented, all can be read up on if people would care to do so, if people started to think for themselves, rather then spouting the "official" line, which is only lies, lies and even more lies. In a way mankind deserves this, because in these with freely available information, not knowing is not an excuse, its just an alternative way of saying "not *wanting* to know".
Yes, I absolutely hate the world which has emerged now and the people who are to stupid, to lazy to see it and who are either comfortable with the status quo or in their ignorance believe it could never effect them. but they are wrong. look at the economic data all around the world, troop movement, political rethoric, this year it will get worse, much worse and you don't have to be a fortune teller to see it.
And politicians have nothing better to do then to bitch about useless make believe from hollywood that gets shared unauthorized and people have nothing better to do then follow the latest gossip of worthless celebrities, while around them civilization itself starts to unravel.
Mankind is truly a sad pathetic race.
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Re: Re: The implications...
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Daily Mail
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Re: Re: meh
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Double Standard
Most of my fellow Americans don't get it, or, they are jingoistic haters, they think it is perfectly fine do anything to other countries, indeed the haters think its funny to hurt foreign human beings. They love to boast about all our bombs and nukes and how we can destroy any country that does not slave to us. It is this type of double standard that many countries resent America, not because of jealousy, like the jingoistic haters like to delude themselves in thinking. In fact, for the longest time America was admired for the ideals it stood for, but those days are long gone, and its sad to say my country lost any moral standing years ago.
Richard O'Dwyer will be extradited. He will be locked up after his trial finds him guilty - make no mistake, he will be tried in the US and he will be convicted. He will be put in a US prison with murderers, and he will be beaten to death and die in a US prison. The British people no longer have the balls to even defend their own country. This is only a beginning, other countries will have to surrender their own citizens or face full US military retaliation. It will happen. It has happened.
No doubt many American readers are going to think I'm flaming or a troll, and that's fine. Most of my Americans worship and cherish an image of America that is the perfect country, and resent anyone, especially a foreigner, even remotely suggesting that America has even the smallest problem or is not absolutely a perfect country.
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I'm sorry for where I was born, I'm sorry for the country that I lived in and loved.
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Keep playing facist though...
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So what role do you see yourself in the new order? Mass executioner? Secret police? Or just a party goon mindlessly cheering the new repressors?
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Comcast should have its employees arrested for infringing its own NBC material!
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Re:
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US Extradition of UK student
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The implications...
What is the USA going to do? Withhold any financial aid to UK? refuse to pay debts owed to UK? They are already doing that. The US economy is so bad at moment any threats the USA states can only EVER now be backed up by military action. They have no ability to economically sanction any country any more.
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Re: Vacation
Only the USA has people wanting to go to gaol so that they can get the medical, dental, and educational benefits that are denied to 'free' citizens
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The real precedence from this case?
As much as some folks like to keep wishing to themselves, and to others, that this is only about copyright - others are understanding the underlying issue: Anyone, anywhere in the world can be subject to somebody else's laws, and punishments - and may not know it until it is too late. Hate to pitch up the canard of 'NWO', but... sometime the 'crackpots' are not too far off the entended target.
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> regardless of the crime (including raping children in Asian
> countries), even if an American blatantly breaks laws in
> foreign countries, brags about it
Google 'Bruce Beresford-Redman'. Kinda undermines your claim.
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Re: Re: Re:
> is more involved in this matter than first meets the eye.
Ah, yes. This is Typical TAM Tactic #42:
When faced with having to defend the indefensible, pretend there's a whole raft of details that are mysteriously missing from the news report, and which, if known, would completely justify what otherwise appears to be a gross abuse of power by either the entertainment industry or its government puppets.
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Re: Re:
> on U.S. soil. It doesn't matter where he lives, it's the country
> where the material's were copyright protected.
As a general statement of law, that's utter nonsense.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The implications...
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Blame treaty beetween uk and us
He was not just publishing website with links! He made money from it by posting ads with those links!! That's why the entertainment industry and courts took him little seriously. He made about $230,000!!!
And after ice seized his first domain, he set up a replacement with words "f*ck police". That's why they were able to charge him with "WILLFULLY Copyright Infrigment "that carries up to 5 years in federal prison for first offense.
If he did it all just only once, I think they would have left him alone.
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Re: There are scary times we live in
Whatever happened to 'innocent until proved guilty' and freedom of speech. The action by U.S. authorities was akin to many dictatorships of previous times, Germany in particular. Perhaps it should be renamed the United States of Corporate Interests!
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Re: Double Standard
Just a couple of examples.
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
Citation very much needed on how actual harm is caused by file sharing at all, let alone by someone posting links to other sites.
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Illegal in which country, asshole? Despite the ideas of many of the idiots who reside on your particular patch of dirt, the US is not the world.
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Re: Vacation
Those are already free in the UK...
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Re: Blame treaty beetween uk and us
Somehow, I think that if the above article was rewritten with "US" instead of "UK" and "North Korea" replacing "US", you'd probably sing a different tune, which makes you a hypocrite and a liar.
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Different law for Duchesses
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16531752
This is the kind of thing that the term "double standard" is coined for.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The implications...
For that matter, how can they legitimately claim he's committed a crime even in the US? Maybe - MAYBE - someone could have a cause for civil action against him, but criminal? For posting links? Under what law?
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Re: Re: Re: The implications...
Apparently not, since the treaty with the UK requires the action to be criminal in both countries but they're extraditing him anyway (unless Mike is mistaken about something). If this story is accurate, extradition depends on some unwritten conditions not available to the interested party.
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Re:
Clearly you're mistaken, as that's exactly what they're doing here.
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Re: Unbelievable.
Only the laws written by trade groups representing powerful rich corporations. The US govt won't bother extraditing for most of the other laws.
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Re: Re: Unbelievable.
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International TV
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Re: Re: Vacation
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Re: Re: Blame treaty beetween uk and us
Technically he did something illegal, otherwise UK police would have never arrested him. They do not issue arrests without reasonable suspicion based on sufficient evidence.
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Re: Re: Re: Vacation
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Re: Re: Re: Blame treaty beetween uk and us
Haha, very funny
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Re: Unbelievable.
Because the US is in charge of the world. Didn't you know that?
So now we don't just have to watch out for breaking our own laws, but we can expect to be punished for breaking laws in other countries despite them being legal where such actions occur?
No, you just have to worry about breaking US laws, other countries don't matter. You know, because they're not the US...
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Certainly wrong
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Re: Re: There are scary times we live in
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Re:
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Re: what about the reverse
Still, I'd love to see someone justifying all the extra costs for extraditing, prosecuting and jailing foreign nationals, effectively turning them into non-productive immigrants, and massively over-reaching/growing the Federal Government. You'd have thought a few of the libertarians might have an issue with that, if your liberals are too spineless to take up the human rights aspect.
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Re: United (Horror) Kingdom
Not exactly what most people think the a European Arrest Warrant is for, is it?
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Re: Certainly wrong
Are you seriously dumb?
Oh, and how's that War on Drugs coming on? ;)
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Re:
Some of it may well be factually incorrect however, the fundamental point is very clear and troubling.
As for it being FUD, oh no, not at all. The fact that the courts are even willing to consider the extradition, let alone actually doing it suggests that everyone should be experiencing a bit of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt about the system.
In relation to SOPA/PIPA. If current US laws, and the consequent "charges" already compel the extradition of English nationals for the linking of content, even though English law permits such linking, then the introduction of even more "laws" in the US will allow for an even more comprehensive ability to demand extradition.
There is no FUD spreading in this article, the fear uncertainty and doubt is being spread by the corruptness of western states and their supposed "laws". Not the reporting of it.
Please be more careful when using such a term.
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Re: Re: Certainly wrong
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Re: Certainly wrong
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Re:
SOPA and PIPA only strengthen the enforcement of such stupid, draconian, bullshit laws, as well as broadening their reach.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The implications...
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"Just think what happens under SOPA/PIPA" - OK lets think.
The absolute utter horror that the SOPA is going to unleash, is forcing Google and the like to delist that poor student's link collection. So frigging terrible.
Get real guys. You can be criminally charged and extradited to US! Why do you frigging care that Google doesn't have to spend some pennies on a dollar blocking sites?
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they are amazing and their professionals seems much selective in each topic
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Re: Re: Vacation
Not exactly, along with our taxes we have to pay something called National Insurance Contributions which are deducted directly from our wages. This goes to fund The National Health Service, so, in effect we do pay for our medical care in the same way you pay medical insurance. The only differences are we call it something else and healthcare is operated by the govenment rather than the private sector.
Also, Basic education in the UK is free in the same way as your elementry and high schools are paid for by the tax payer. A university education however, is paid for by the idividual, runs into many thousands of pounds and in many cases leaves that indivdual in significant debt for years afterwards. We don't necessarily get the free ride many US citizens would like to assume.
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