MPAA: Ripping DVDs Shouldn't Be Allowed Because It Takes Away Our Ability To Charge You Multiple Times For The Same Content

More Details Emerge On Questionable UK Seizure Of Music Blog

Free Speech

from the crazy-estimates dept

Wed, Feb 15th 2012 2:10pm — Mike Masnick

Yesterday we wrote about the bizarre seizure of a music blog, RnBXclusive.com, by UK law enforcement officials. Many people doubted that it was real, given the insanity of the splash page that SOCA -- the UK's Serious Organized Crime Agency -- had put up on the site. However, SOCA has since confirmed that it's real. SOCA is also claiming that this is about "fraud" rather than copyright infringement, because the site apparently had posted some pre-release music (something that happens pretty frequently). It's called a leak, not fraud. And many artists embrace them -- or (quite frequently) leak the works themselves because it builds up buzz.

SOCA is also making the absolutely laughable statement that this one blog was costing the labels "approximately £15 m per year." Perhaps in some fantasy land where the IFPI/RIAA is in charge of "new math," but not anywhere in reality. Now, certainly some of these leaks may have broken the law, but at best they should be civil issues and actual harm should be proved, rather than fantasy harm. While RnBXclusive was a decently widely read blog among music blogs, Dajaz1 (who, again, knows in great detail how all this insanity works) is pointing out that if the £15m claim is accurate, then you could easily sum up all the music blogs around, and they would account for more losses than "what the recorded music industry has made total since the very first record deal was signed. Per year."

Isn't it time that law enforcement stopped relying on fantasy numbers and started living in reality? Especially when it comes to censoring blogs?

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Filed Under: blogs, fraud, pre-release, seizures, soca, takedowns, uk

55 Comments

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silverscarcat (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:21pm

Of course not!
"Isn't it time that law enforcement stopped relying on fantasy numbers and started living in reality? Especially when it comes to censoring blogs?"

If they did, they might realize that they're complete and utter morons.

Oh, wait, I forget...

The average I.Q. of police officers is between 90 and 110.

Stupid enough to not ask questions, but JUST enough intelligence to follow orders.
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Jay (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:27pm

Re: Of course not!
The irony is that most of them get law degrees and know how to keep out of trouble.
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Ben (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:27pm

When math gets wierd
Perhaps in some fantasy land where the IFPI/RIAA is in charge of "new math," but not anywhere in reality.
It is called Bistro Mathematics and was invented by a Brit; just add a really hot cup of tea and anything becomes possible.
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Fin York, 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:28pm

Bye bye lies
I suspect this is partially because people like myself got straight onto the police complaints, cc'ing in their MP's pointing out that you can't say someone has committed fraud or stolen anything until a court has found that they have.

Hopefully this case will result in another win for linking to content and start to make SOCA think that since people are spending more on music and the labels are receiving less, clearly the money is going to the artist's, considering the increased volume of content available.

You never know they may spot that they shouldn't be supporting the middle men who have enough money to chase people in civil courts, like anyone else in the UK would have to, but rather focusing on crimes that really are serious
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:31pm

stop living in fantasy land. this is the UK after all.
remember the 'special relationship' it has with the US!
oh, and dont forget about the 'accounting' methods the entertainment industries use.

i cant believe the UK police have gotten involved again, presumably on the say-so of Sharkey and the BPI, after what happened in the 'Oink' case. gonna make plums of themselves again! trouble is, it will still get the site shut down permanently, which is the whole aim. and there should be severe consequences for those making any false claims against websites etc, regardless of what those claims are!
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:Lobo Santo (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:32pm

Re: When math gets wierd
_sigh_ You're mixing Bistro Mathematics with the Infinite Improbability Drive's Brownian Motion producer...
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:Lobo Santo (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:35pm

Re: When math gets wierd
For the uninitiated:
Bistromathics is the most powerful computational force known to parascience. A major step up from the Infinite Improbability Drive, Bistromathics is a way of understanding the behavior of numbers. Just as Einstein observed that space was not an absolute, but depended on the observer's movement in time, so it was realized that numbers are not absolute, but depend on the observer's movement in restaurants.
(more)
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Richard (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:54pm

Re: Re: Of course not!
No - the real irony is that they are the biggest pirates out there in my experience...
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:58pm

Also, some marijuana was found...
A half-smoked "joint" or "roach" in criminal parlance was found on the site. Estimated street value: $15,000,000,000.00
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Violated (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 2:59pm

Pondering
Since this raid came about I have been wondering if these sites complied with the European version of DMCA law? It then does not matter if you host infringing files as long as you correctly respond to take-down requests when received.

We should keep in mind the site owner uploading music himself would invalid any protection he had. Only users can upload infringing music and usually get away with it.

Then I also ponder just how much lawfully supplied music was involved here? Yes an artist leaking a few songs can indeed ramp up a fan base prior to an album release. Fame counts for everything in the entertainment world where locking up your creation for few to see is contradictory.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:00pm

How do Brits / the rest of the world, take to becoming an extension of the US? I thought the ACTA protests might have cooled some leaders heels about that.

Success is educating the public. The US news seems to have a black out on copyright covereage. Is it the same elsewhere?
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Hephaestus (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:12pm

Re:
What I find amazing is they have IP crimes above Kidnap and extortion.

http://www.soca.gov.uk/threats
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Trails (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:12pm

15 m per year
" costing the labels "approximately �15 m per year.""

So that means the labels should have seen a revenue increase of �41,000 per day. So did they?
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Duke (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:15pm

EU DMCA
The EU doesn't have a DMCA as such, instead is has the more general protections for caching and hosting services, and "mere conduits", found in the e-commerce directive (00/31). There's no specific take-down procedure, but the first two limitations on liability can be defeated by "actual knowledge or information" about illegality; i.e. if someone notifies you.

These limitations were successfully used in the TVLinks case a few years back, but haven't worked (so far) in the O'Dwyr extradition case. Also, coming from a Directive, they're rather vague and open to interpretation.

In terms of conspiracy to defraud, I should have spotted that as a possibility straight away; it was used (unsuccessfully) in the OiNK case, and has been threatened quite a few times since. It's incredibly broad, so should be much easier to prove than copyright infringement (with all those pesky things like "prejudicial effect" and "actual loss", or even "copyright"...). Wikipedia has quite a good, if legally technical, summary of the offence.

That's also how they manage to get the ridiculous "10 years imprisonment for downloading" claim, although it's still completely unreasonable.
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:19pm

Re: Re: When math gets wierd
As opposed the the Infinite Improbibility Drive, created by feeding the unlikelihood of ever creating one into a Bambleweeny 57 Sub-meson brain suspended in a really hot cup of fresh tea..... Tea is important but only a tiny divisor of non-absoluteness at the end of the bill of Bistromathics.

Probably Douglas Adams just decided that trees were a really bad idea and went back to the ocean. Wish the RIAA did too.....
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:26pm

Re:
How do Brits / the rest of the world, take to becoming an extension of the US?

We've hated it for a quite a number of years thank you very much and wish those the other side of the political pond would stick to things they know about like "world series" sports that no other country plays. We suck bad enough at infringing on personal freedoms all by ourselves without "you lot" getting involved thanks.
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PRMan, 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:30pm

Re: Re:
What do you mean? Lots of countries in Asia and Latin America play baseball. We're just too scared to play them in a championship.
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Torg (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 3:43pm

Re: Re:
At least human trafficking is higher up than the 2012 Olympics.
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gorehound (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 4:16pm

Re: Of course not!
They don't call em PIGS for nothing.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 4:28pm

Bad math Mike.

"costing" 15 million doesn't mean that it would make 15 million. You are drawing a conclusion that the facts do not support.
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Hephaestus (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 4:30pm

Re: 15 m per year
Remember we are dealing with label accounting practices here, in layman's terms a one CD sales increase.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 4:53pm

"costing the labels "approximately �15 m per year."

I approximate that it does'nt cost labels �15 m per year

I approximate that both approximates are approximately true or not
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 4:57pm

Re: Re:
You would expect anything less from a Government who had a hand in the rendition of political asylum seekers (entire families) back to be to tortured so that you could secure some oil and gas exploration rights for your corporate friends?

http://boingboing.net/2012/02/15/uk-govt-yes-we-kidnapped-p.html

But it's ok, there is a law that protects the spies from being held accountable for breaking the law and they are trying to use that to cover everyones ass now.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 5:02pm

I think its kinda cute they think a bunch of the over produced trash they foist into the market is worth �15 m.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 5:29pm

"approximately �15 m per year."

Approximate = plausible deniability, when true figure is found
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 5:32pm

15 mil, sounds suspiciously well rounded
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 6:17pm

Re:
The facts don't support a figure of 15 million regardless of how you look at it.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 6:24pm

Re: Re:
Doesn't matter if it's 15 million or one thousand. If lawbreaking is costing a legal business some amount of money, then the government needs to police it. That's their job.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 7:08pm

Re:
"�15mil +/- �15mil" should cover their them
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 7:51pm

"Isn't it time that law enforcement stopped relying on fantasy numbers and started living in reality? Especially when it comes to censoring blogs?"

Stuff like this is why you are so hard to take seriously.

First off, Law Enforcement lives in reality. The reality is that the site in question was a hub for downloading copyright material. It was the only reason for the site to exist, from what I could see. Reality, the site was breaking the law - and doing so for profit.

As for censorship, I guess I need to explain this again: in the US, speech that is part of a crime is not considered to be protected. The UK has similar laws. Basically, what was removed wasn't protected speech, so it's not censorship - it's just law enforcement doing their jobs.

If you are going to drag out the censorship carcass to flog, at least do it when it is merited, and not just every time you don't agree with law enforcement doing their jobs.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 8:51pm

Re: Re: Re:
That bullshit argument has been used throughout history to justify wrong doing. Just to rephrase what you said.

If some Nazi government says some Nazi soldier has to round up all the Jews. That's their Job.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 9:02pm

Re:
The reality is content industries are busy trying to swat flies when a tsunami is on the way.

If they were smart, they would get to higher ground and compete with pirate sites by offering customers what they want at a price they are willing to pay.
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Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2012 @ 9:12pm

Now, certainly some of these leaks may have broken the law, but at best they should be civil issues and actual harm should be proved, rather than fantasy harm.

What's wrong with fantasy harm?
By the way, did you know SOCA costs UK taxpayers approximately �15 billion every month?
And that's not counting all the lost jobs; they're responsible for at least 3% of the unemployment rate.
They also regularly kick puppies. Occasionally kittens.
And I have it on good authority they have a time machine, which they used to travel back in time in order to sink the Titanic, cause the Tunguska event, and start the Black Plague.
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saulgoode (profile), 15 Feb 2012 @ 10:09pm

The takedown message has been updated
It now merely contains the message, "SOCA has taken control of this domain name" along with a letterhead and link to their website.
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Another Ben, 15 Feb 2012 @ 10:31pm

Re: When math gets wierd
Yes. Of course. Us Brits drink tea so that must be the (humorously racist) cause.

HOW MUCH FUCKING TEA MUST THE RIAA BE DRINKING??
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Torg (profile), 16 Feb 2012 @ 12:28am

Re: Re: When math gets wierd
They've got an entire chain of bistros doing their math.
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Prisoner 201, 16 Feb 2012 @ 12:43am

Re: Of course not!
Uh... the avergage IQ by definition is 100. So it's quite a massive percentage of the world population you catch in your 90-110 span there.
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Idobek (profile), 16 Feb 2012 @ 2:38am

SOCA, SFO and the Right to Remain Silent
I have to wonder if SOCA has been extended the same powers as the SFO when it comes to fraud investigations; i.e. suspects have no Right to Remain Silent.
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The eejit (profile), 16 Feb 2012 @ 4:40am

So, by their lgic, that �15m number must be corroboratable, right?

So, I'd challenge SOCA to actually provide hard evidence, with a simple methodology that doesn't include handwavium, that actual fraud was taking place.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 16 Feb 2012 @ 4:59am

Re: The takedown message has been updated
I believe that has something to do with a small campaign by people pointing out that making allegations as such without proof opened SOCA up to lawsuits.

Someone reminded them they needed to give people a day in court before calling them thieves.
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Trails (profile), 16 Feb 2012 @ 5:50am

Re: Re: Re:
If a gov't makes it illegal to wear underwear we should all just shut up and accept the seizure of our boxers? One should not assume the law is right.

Your circular logic is showing.
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wec, 16 Feb 2012 @ 7:08am

By "costing" maybe what they mean is they are spending that money to help convince the police and Parliment Members to make and enforce the current bad laws.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 7:27am

Re: Re:
The "tsunami on the way" is possibly the most idiotic comment possible under the circumstances. The storm has been raging for a decade now, and the reality is that it is dying down as governments and their members finally come to grips with the areas of the law that don't work online. They are moving to remedy the situation, rope in the lawlessness of the internet, and put things back they way they should be.

The truth about the desperation of the pirate supporters (such as Mike) is that they are starting to try to hide behind the strongest barriers... using terms like "censorship" and "free speech!" while entirely ignoring the actual acts that are occurring. Shutting down a site that was by and large a piracy haven isn't censorship, it's just logical. If it cannot exist in the real world legally, why should it be online?

You guys (and Mike) need to come to understand that the tide has shifted. There is no longer unlimited, unchecked freedom without consequence online. The noose is being tightened, get use to it.

Oh yeah, it's not the "content industry" doing it. It's enlightened governments who realize that a large part of their economy is being subverted and destroyed by people out for a free lunch.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 7:38am

Re:
As for censorship, I guess I need to explain this again

US laws are trying to censor me when they make rape illegal.

I'm expressing myself!!! Free speech!!! Where is the outrage?!?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 7:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
LOL.

Most pathetic example of Godwin ever.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 7:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Comparing centuries old real law to some imaginary law that makes underwear illegal. lol

Your circular logic is showing.

hahahahahaha
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 7:47am

Re: Re:
Governements will push legislation if you have enough money and or, influence

I'm expressing myself!!! Free speech!!! Where is YOU'RE outrage?!?

dumb ass rapist........
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Torg (profile), 16 Feb 2012 @ 7:58am

Re: Re: Re:
"back the way things should be" is a contradiction in terms. The past is the past, and it should stay there where it belongs. If an industry, no matter how important, relies on limiting something that technology no longer limits, then it should cease to exist and make way for a system that takes advantage of the opportunities progress has provided. An "enlightened" government does not protect the legacies of the previous era from the effects of the current one. An enlightened government tells the scribes to get their own printing presses or stop bitching. An enlightened government then tells the printers that they should start selling their books on Kindle or their problems are their own. And when something better than the current system is created, an enlightened government will allow this to wither and die too. That is how things should be.
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Marcel de Jong (profile), 16 Feb 2012 @ 8:17am

Re: Re: Re:
Cuba would totally kick some New York Yankees butt.
And don't forget about the Dutch. Last world cup was a Cuba-NL match, with NL being the victor.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 8:42am

Re: Re: Re:
Well said, all points valid, i too support my government in all things, regardless of right or wrong......wait, ignore that last bit, freeterds

I'd call you a sheep, but then i'll just realise, i dont represent the government, so why would you listen

I get it, people have no say in what gets passed as law, trully, i get it, ONLY the government has the capacity to dictate what the majority of people should feel is right or wrong, anyone who does'nt agree with them, we should slur them and automatically assume that their arguments have no merit,

Our government has spoken, thy will be done

Long live *you're version of a* free society.......
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 10:03am

Re: Re: Re:
So by your logic Dajaz1 was by and large a piracy haven and the year they were taken offline wasn't censorship despite the fact there was no probable cause?

If you should have learned anything from Dajaz1 it's that judging something on appearance doesn't mean anything.

The tide has indeed shifted, people are going to get voted out of office, citizens will take to the streets. An entire generation is waking up to the fact they need to register to vote. And quite frankly when the 18-25 age group comes out in force you and all your shills in congress are fucked. F U C K E D
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2012 @ 10:50am

Re: Pondering
There is no DMCA in Europe. Sites are basically liable without any real simple exception. There is no "oops" in play here.
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Dave, 16 Feb 2012 @ 1:16pm

This is cobblers
A somewhat reduced statement is online now. www.RnBXclusive.com
My guess is that someone's realised that the whole thing is total twaddle in the face of mounting criticism!

http://www.soca.gov.uk/news/401-music-website-takedown-latest

"A number of site users have deleted their download histories."

Really? And how do we know that, pray?

"SOCA's holding message to users who had been frequenting the website was taken offline at the conclusion of the first phase of the operation on 15 February."

Ha! As if it was all deliberate and part of some grand master plan. Still sounds like cattle excrement to me.

"The targeted SOCA activity, which lasted 32 hours, was part of an operational programme aimed at protecting UK businesses and the wider economy."

No - this is NOT what the SOCA is supposed to be involved with. Businesses and economy is nowt to do with them, Crime is supposed to be their brief, not protecting the national economy! Crap, I say. They've probably been pushed into it by the music industry without being fully primed on how to handle it. The original page looked like it been put together by some 12-year old misfit.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2012 @ 6:57pm

Re: Of course not!
90-110 IQ is also known as average intelligence.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Feb 2012 @ 1:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
There is centuries old law in existence that allows police to shut down websites?

Gods, but lawmakers were much more forward thinking than I could ever have imagined.
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