Disappointing: Teller Sues Other Magician For Doing The Same Trick
from the ownership-society dept
I've been a big fan of Penn & Teller since I was a kid, so I'm pretty disappointed to learn that Teller (the silent one, whose name, it turns out, is Raymond Teller) is suing another magician for copyright infringement for (a) doing a similar trick that may have been based on a Teller trick and (b) offering to sell "the secret" to that trick for around $3,000. There was a YouTube video of this other magician, Gerard Dogge, who goes by the stage name Gerard Bakardy, showing the trick, which Teller had removed with a DMCA takedown notice. Dogge (who is Dutch, but apparently performs in the Canary Islands at a hotel) and Teller then had a phone conversation, where Teller offered money to Dogge to stop performing the trick and to promise not to reveal the secret -- but they disagreed over price.This is disappointing in a number of different ways. Years ago, we wrote about an academic paper that looked at how the magic community policed itself without having to resort to the blunt instrument of intellectual property lawsuits. As Tim Lee noted at the time:
Instead, the magic community uses social norms to reward those who discover new magic tricks and punishes those who disclose them to non-magicians. Because magicians rely so much on their professional network of other magicians to learn about new tricks, new equipment, and new performance opportunities, maintaining a good reputation within the magic community is essential to the career of a successful magician. A magician who uses another magician's trick without giving the originator proper credit, or who reveals secrets to non-magicians, is shunned by other magicians. That kind of ostracism can be a much better (not to mention cheaper) way of disciplining wayward members than getting the lawyers involved.Unfortunately, it looks like Teller has decided to go much further than that. While it is true that he registered a copyright on the trick, illustrated with the following amusing illustration, it's pretty ridiculous for a magician to claim "ownership" of a trick:
I recognize that magicians fear losing "the secret" to their tricks, but that's pretty silly. Magic is entertainment, and people like going to see it not because they're "fooled" but because of the showmanship of the entertainers. And, Penn & Teller's monstrous success has much more to do with the fact that their acts are incredibly entertaining -- rather than the skill of their tricks. Even if someone knew the secrets to all of their tricks, it wouldn't make the show any less enjoyable.
Furthermore, it's not even clear that there's actually infringement here. While certain specifics about the performance may be copyrightable, the basics of just doing a trick shouldn't be subject to copyright. It's much more narrow. If anything this seems like yet another attempt to abuse copyright law to stifle some form of "competition," rather than for any legitimate copyright-related purpose. It's just disappointing that someone like Teller would do such a thing.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: magic, penn & teller, raymond teller
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Revealing secrets
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Revealing secrets
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Revealing secrets
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Revealing secrets
"You might be wondering if we had to break some magician's code of secrecy to show you that hanky thing. Yeah, we did. And there are probably some magicians, some tuxedo-clad lowlifes, that actually put their cheesy little secrets above patriotism..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEB50IfgkA4
On the other hand, I remember the flower-shadow trick as Teller's masterpiece.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Revealing secrets
Here is a link to the one I was talking about as well as another one.
http://youtu.be/fV-khFYzmQE
http://youtu.be/NNsGGTt9CTs
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Weren't These The Guys...
Would be quite sad if true.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Weren't These The Guys...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Weren't These The Guys...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
If the show has its merits it is equal to know the letter of a song.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I've been a big fan of Penn & Teller since I was a kid, so I'm pretty disappointed to learn that Teller (the silent one, whose name, it turns out, is Raymond Teller) is suing another magician for copyright infringement for (a) doing a similar trick that may have been based on a Teller trick and (b) offering to sell "the secret" to that trick for around $3,000.
You need to read thoroughly before commenting.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Mike doesn't want this to be infringement, so he just pretends like it isn't. As always, working backwards. Of course Mike leaves out the fact that Teller has a registered copyright on the work. Mike pretends like it's about "the secret," when really it's about the copyrighted work.
And, of course, Mike completely leaves out the Lanham Act claim. I assume it's only because he couldn't figure out how to spin it. Just more typical, mindless IP bashing. Mike just goes into autopilot mode with this stuff. These pieces are so predictable and idiotic--Mike's bread and butter! Good job, Mike!!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
I think it's correct that courts generally accept such registrations as prima facie proof of copyright ownership. But ownership of what, exactly? Masnick is correct when he says it's unclear how much of the act depicted in Teller's drawing is actually protected. Certainly the drawing itself is protected. But is the depicted act and its (presumably) unfixed-in-tangible-form, secret implementation covered? This isn't a case like with a musical composition, where the law explicitly covers the abstract composition, not just its tangible, printed or recorded form.
You also mention that the lawsuit isn't just about copyright; it also contains an Unfair Competition claim. That is, if I understand correctly, Teller says he was (or will be?) harmed by the Dogge's business practices, which are based on the copying of Teller's act. These kinds of claims get mixed results in court, don't they? I can see how it might be worth a shot, but I also see how it's standard operating procedure nowadays to attach a Lanham Act claim to every copyright claim.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
1) I continuously find no value in this blog.
2) In the comments, I continuously rant about how this blog has no value.
3) Time for me to go to trollaholics anonymous.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I congratulate you on your excellent work. If there was a Best Troll for the week, I am sure you would get it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
"Mike leaves out the fact that Teller has a registered copyright on the work."
"While it is true that he registered a copyright on the trick" - And then the big fucking picture to go with it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
Yet, last week, when we posted an article *by an actual artist* who was in the process of *protecting her rights* I get called out by all your friends for hating musicians.
I give up trying to be logical with you. You guys are so biased you've decided my positions despite clear statements that prove you wrong. You're blind to reality. You insist I'm a "pirate." I am not. I do not infringe. I do not celebrate infringement. You claim I don't care about artists. Yet I work with artists, and celebrate artists making money.
You have no arguments. You just lie and attack, lie and attack. I can't figure out why, other than jealousy, or some weird attachment to disproven theories of copyright maximalism. It's sad.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
"A magician who uses another magician's trick without giving the originator proper credit, or who reveals secrets to non-magicians, is shunned by other magicians. That kind of ostracism can be a much better (not to mention cheaper) way of disciplining wayward members than getting the lawyers involved."
You're wrong and apparently only see what you want to: by quoting Tim Lee it appears to me that Mike supports the reasonable enforcement of property rights in this very situation. He illustrates that the magic community already has best practices for dealing with the likes of Dogge, yet Teller decides to go beyond these community standards. If these community standards work then Teller is deserving of said criticism. If they don't then debate the flaws in their operation and how they can be made better. Not every potential legal issue needs litigated, unless you're a lawyer who wants a guaranteed gravy-train. If this is your POV then obviously Mike's position will appear to you as if "he hates the fact that they have rights that they may want to" LEGALLY "enforce" (there fixed it for you) for any competition to enforcing property rights outside of using the law and lawyers will be a threat and/or illegitimate.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Also, couldn't he then be arrested for herbicide?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Yeah I am interested in how it is done to. Would be neat to look at the plans. I am going to be mad if it is some one off stage doing it. That isn't even creative at that point.
Also, how does a mute magician have a phone conversation with anyone? No wonder they couldn't agree on terms.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Sorry sarcasm detector is in the shop but just in case. He isn't mute.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I'm probably way off, and it must be even simpler :) I'm always surprised how simple many tricks are. But people see what they want to see or what they think they see.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Copyright has its place, and for all it's wrongs, I don't see this as one of them.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
http://www.kfc.com/about/pressure.asp
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Teller is getting on in years and people have been known to become 'different' when aging. Also, this trick is actually one of his earlier ones and, forgive me that I forgot where I read it, but I have read an 'ask me anything'-style chat transcript, where he mentioned this trick as one of his favourite memories of his career, or s.th. to that effect. So maybe he just feels too strongly for this particular trick to be entirely rational in his actions.
Also, Mike, his name IS actually not Raymond Teller. His name WAS Raymond Teller, until he had it legally changed to Teller. He has only one name, it is not a stage name or alias, his name is just plain 'Teller'. What his close personal friends call him, I don't know.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Most of the tricks they explain are made up by them/their cohorts specifically for the purpose of being explained. The rest (that is mostly just filler for Penn to talk) is stuff that's basic enough to be found off the rack in magic shops or can be read in magic books, but might still be new enough for the audience.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Yeah from what I understand, most magicians were cool with them "exposing" stuff because they don't really. Like if you watch their cup and ball routine with clear plastic cups, they are so freaking fast that you don't learn anything you didn't already know (that magicians are damn good at concealing things and slipping them in and out of their hands)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The best magic trip yet to be explained.
How to pull a politician's head out of their ass!
That's it! Nobody has ever explained it because it never happens. Maybe once every ten thousand years or so, but it's the best magic trick ever. And it's one trick I'm sure politicians will copyright and bury so deep nobody will ever see it happen again.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: The best magic trip yet to be explained.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Knowing their act...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Magic
I can tell you that the work that goes into an original idea, in the magic world, is huge. Hours and hours goes into the effect and the perfection for performance.
When that work is ripped off by someone who did not do the work, it hurts. It may be ego, it may be rage, but it disappoints that some people do not give the appropriate courtesy of letting the originator make a living with his hard work.
I personally would not sue to stop the performance, but I would be personally outraged that the conventions of the profession where not upheld. The Masked Magician on Fox is a great example of a spoiler.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Magic
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Magic
You magicians got it easy: we programmers however....
*shrill* *shrill* *shrill* *shrill* *flail* *flail* *flail* *flail*
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Most telling was that Penn went above and beyond by asking nicely and even offering to pay this person stealing his work to cease. Before filing with the courts to prevent further damages to Penn's work.
There are times when protecting ones works are needed. Further more Penn should be commended and used as an example as to the proper way to initially respond.
I'm honestly quite disappointed to see that only one side of the story being told on this blog as I expected more.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Teller, not Penn.
Most telling was that Penn went above and beyond by asking nicely and even offering to pay this person stealing his work to cease. Before filing with the courts to prevent further damages to Penn's work.
What's "telling" about that?
There are times when protecting ones works are needed. Further more Penn should be commended and used as an example as to the proper way to initially respond.
Why is it proper to sue in this case? I don't see how this is a proper way to respond? It seems like a terrible and unnecessary way to respond.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
Think about that for a while. You might as well be arguing the reasons for healthy eating with the board of directors for McDonald's.
Because you attack the status quo in a time of change you will always get comments that discount reality and logic. Accept it and move on.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/04/silent-magician-teller-files-copyright-su it-over-stolen-shadow-trick.ars?clicked=related_right
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Uh...
Never mind, don't explain, just tear the whole system down and try again.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It clearly would.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Copycat
Charlie Chaplin's estate should sue /him/ for copyright infringement.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
It's difficult to gauge how the call went, given that we don't know what sort of offers were exchanged, but at least Teller tried to resolve it outside of court first.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Dramatic Performance
I'm think Teller is in the right here.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
There is no real "code". Just that if you have enough dough, you simply stuff it in younger and poorer artist's mouth.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
"FAST FORWARD" to conclusion
**teller** won the lawsuit. loser thief barred from performing or redistributing the secrets.
decision places a magic performance in same category as above mentioned Theatrical performances. and Judge (actually, if i remember correctly it was three judges) could see no significant differences between thief's performance and teller's performance
you cannot go see a performance of lets say "Rent" and then perform a play you call "lease" which has same dialogue.
so you cannot take an original trick, or even a rework of an old trick, and perform it as your own
i notice on FOOL US, every magician will be careful to say either "this is an original trick" or "this is my take of illusion first performed by *WHOEVER* "
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I dont think you understand what copyright infringement means. Not defending teller here. In fact I dont care about any of these so called "magicians". The fact does remain if you watch the Dutch guys YouTube video, he claims he has copyright on it. Not to mention you said yourself teller consulted the Dutch gentlemen first and was denied on obstruction. I'm just asking that you be open minded to the fact that not everyone is always right or wrong... usually everyone is wrong, much like yourself.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]