The TSA's Infamous 'Behavior Detection' In Action: Mandatory 'Chats' About Every Detail Of Your Trip
from the worst-chatbot-ever dept
The TSA's "behavior detection" program continues to roll out, unimpeded by accusations of racial profiling or the fact that 725,000 travelers have been questioned without turning up a single terrorist. This extra step in the ongoing, ever-expanding War at Home on Terror is bringing the fun of living in a dictatorship to the unsuspecting citizens of a federal republic.Traveling into or out of the country used to be the one of the few situations in which American citizens could expect extra questions to be thrown their way. Apparently, we're now defending internal borders to prevent terrorists from crossing state lines unimpeded. In addition to long-running security theatrics already in place at our nations' airports, TSA agents are now throwing a barrage of instrusive questions at flyers as they travel from state to state.
Here's the first of two stories featuring the kinder, gentler, more intrusive TSA and its "behavior detection" system in action.
Over at the ACLU's Blog of Rights, Devon Chaffee writes of her most recent experience passing through airport security in Burlington, Vermont:Maybe the TSA agent was just being friendly? The writer's husband suggested as much. Despite the fact that the word "friendly" has rarely, if ever, been used in the same sentence as "TSA agent," there's always the small possibility that it's just some welcome humanity showing through the officious facade.
The agent then turned to me with grin that was a bit perky for even my taste given the early hour. "So where are you folks off to?" he energetically inquired.
I like to think that I'm a friendly person, so I answered him, expecting a brief innocuous exchange about the Washington DC heat and the scourge of Capitol Hill gridlock. Instead, the agent responded to my answer with a barrage of questions about where in Vermont we had stayed, how long we had traveled, and why we had traveled there. I could feel a suspicious expression involuntarily creep across my face. The New Englander inside me was screaming "you don't know this person from a hole in the wall and you certainly don't want to divulge to him the details of your family vacation!" And yet it seemed that the more discomfort I expressed, the more persistent the agent's questioning became, following us down the line, grilling me unrelentingly about our vacation plans and baggage status.
Here's the problem, though. It's nearly impossible for the average human being to chat normally with someone who has the power to indefinitely detain or otherwise screw up their travel plans for any number of nebulous "violations." There's no such thing as an innocuous or friendly question when it comes to an agency with a reputation for acting irresponsibly, vindictively and ignorantly, depending on the situation. No one is ever going to feel comfortable just handing out additional personal information, no matter how anecdotal, to someone who can use any misstep as an excuse to search, detain or otherwise inconvenience anyone and everyone.
Here's another mandatory chat session, one which goes off the rails much more quickly:
Steve Gunn, a former Muskegon Chronicle staff writer who now works for the Education Action Group, writes in the pages of his old paper:Notice how quickly asserting your rights gets you branded as a troublemaker by those "protecting" the airport. The intrusive questioning is the TSA's "behavior detection" at work. So far, it seems to be best at detecting racists within the TSA's ranks and maintaining an overly-close relationship with other law enforcement agencies.
At that point she asked me what my business would be in Grand Rapids.
"I'm headed home," I replied.
Then she wanted to know where home was. That's when the mental alarms went off and I realized I was being interrogated by Big Brother in drag. I asked her why the federal government needed to know where I was going and what I would be doing. She explained that the questions were part of a new security "pilot program."
I then told her I am an American citizen, traveling within my own country, and I wasn't breaking any laws. That's all the federal government needed to know, and I wasn't going to share any more. Not because I had anything to hide. It was because we live in a free country where innocent people are supposedly protected from unwarranted government intrusion and harassment.
At that point the agent yelled out, "We have another refusal." One of my bags was seized and I was momentarily detained and given a hand-swab, which I believe was to test for residue from bomb-making materials.
I passed the bomb test and was told I could move on, but I hung around a moment and told everyone within listening range what I thought about this terrifying experience.
This interrogation of citizens who have never crossed a border isn't necessarily a new thing, but in the past it was definitely an exception rather than the rule. Crossing national borders would usually result in some form of questioning beyond "Are you an American citizen?" Outside of our airports, the Department of Homeland Security is partnering with the Border Patrol to set up checkpoints with the intent of stopping and searching vehicles traveling internal highways 40-50 miles from any border crossing. This falls within the "Constitution Free Zone" where the courts have permitted these "administrative" checkpoints to operate, but solely for the purpose of protecting the nation's borders. They are not to be used for other law enforcement purposes, like conducting general drug searches.
As can be expected, the checkpoints have become "general purpose." Suspicionless searches are now the norm, with many drivers being routed to the "secondary" for additional questioning. None of this is necessary, useful or even particularly legal, but they continue to operate simply because US citizens are generally cooperative, even when their rights are being violated. If you don't cooperate with your own violation, as in the case with Gunn above, and the video below, the ones doing the violating (under the auspices of "security") treat the assertive citizen like he's being unreasonable and possibly a threat.
While the US is far from an actual police state, the encroachment on our rights shows no sign of abating. The TSA defends its severely flawed "behavior detection" system as being a crucial and useful part of law enforcement as a whole. Defenders of DHS checkpoints are quick to cite criminal actions by non-citizens and the general hazy threat of "terrorism" in support of their activities. No one really expects anyone in power to say "Wait, this is going too far," and start rolling back authority and legislation. But someone in power should really start questioning why it became acceptable in this country, a nation built on individual freedom, to interrogate citizens simply because they're traveling from one internal destination to another by vehicle.
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Filed Under: behavior detection, interrogation, privacy, security, tsa
Reader Comments
The First Word
“You're absolutely right.
Mr. Franklin and his comrades had to fight the world's greatest superpower at the time to be free, who had the world's largest navy and army. Now we're the greatest superpower, and we're giving up all of our rights against a few hundred crazy people in caves.
Mr. Franklin and the other Founding Fathers decided that when the US was a newborn and frail country, that it was more important to protect our civil liberties, even when we were the most vulnerable. Now that we're the most powerful country, and we are the least vulnerable, it's time to give up those civil liberties?
The terrorists have officially won.
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Security as tight as a sieve...
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You bitched about the scanners, you bitched about the screeners... I am assuming you will only be happy when air travel in the US is as risky as standing in a Syrian street with a target on your head.
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b-bu-but...
that's the *only* 'reason' they need...
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
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Looks like something weel-known
http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/000/Graph/poland-krakow-checkpoint-t13138_2.jpg
There is NO EXCUSE, absolutely NONE, for doing something like this.
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Ok, I know what these agents are going for. The techniques they are attempting to copy are better than any expensive cancer machines that can't tell a fat man from a dude strapped to the nines with explosives...
But... they don't seem to be trained... AT ALL. That's not how you question someone, you don't berate a person until they feel uncomfortable, you sure as hell don't turn a grinch smirk at them before asking questions.
You are supposed to just strike like lightning where your target doesn't expect and say something like
"What are you doing here?"
"Is that bag your bag?
You ask quick, point blank questions, and move on if the person doesn't react normally to being harassed by insane questions. Someone going "wtf is your problem?" or even the example where the person told him, very eloquently, "Go F yourself" is a NORMAL REACTION and indicator that the person is good to go.
They have no flipping clue what they are doing. They are acting like creepers, they clearly haven't been trained, and when they get the green light they act like it's a bright red warning light and GO AFTER THE WRONG PEOPLE.
Really, I can't stress this enough, the person did everything wrong, wrong questions, wrong delivery did everything to make a normal citizen to act in a way that a terrorist would act in that situation but still received a clear indicator that the person passed with flying colors and MARKED THEM AS FAILING.
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Why do you post as anonymous then?
Idiot...
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Imagine if you're just driving along when suddenly an officer or TSA agent stops you, asks you for ID and requests to have your vehicle searched. Or imagine if you're sitting at home, relaxing, doing whatever it is you do when there's a knock at the door. You open it and there's several officers and bomb-sniffing dogs standing there and they ask if they can come in and search your house.
This is the sort of behavior you're condoning.
This is not Nazi Germany and this is not the U.S.S.R. -- this is the United States of America.
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Indeed, and we're trying to show we're better at this than them...and apparently succeeding...sigh
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Yes, I understand the "right to travel" under the Constitution, but even it is subject to reasonable regulation associated with a compelling government interest using reasonable means consistent with that interest.
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That's your problem. It's all being done silently and secretly.
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Being an insufferable prick to being bothered is NORMAL in this country.
These are psychological indicators that the person is who he says he is and very much on the side of "Highly unlikely this dick cares about anything or anyone around them, certainly not enough to blow up a plane."
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should have been using
"This is not Nazi Germany and this is not the U.S.S.R. -- this is the United States of America."
from the original post....oy
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Afraid to travel? Afraid they will win?
In my opinion, the terrorists have already affected nearly every single person in nearly every country.
You are afraid and believe you will get hurt by them? Then, they already won.
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Also you need oversight. Bare minimum they should be recording who they talk to, reactions received, questions asked, etc. Simple form to fill out where they check off boxes after each person. It forces them to self check themselves. If self checks don't work that's why there are managers/supervisors. ffs, they can spend tons of money on equipment but they can't spend cash on the basics.
Government spending at it's finest, build a pyramid by starting at the top.
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"...being a crucial and useful part of law enforcement..."
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What I want to do with my own time and travel plans are mine and mine alone.
Who the HELL gave these guys the right to interfere with MY life?!
I don't know them, I don't trust them, I'm just traveling, doing nothing wrong and they treat me as a terrorist?!
Screw that!
Even if I'm doing nothing wrong, they have NO NEED to know what I'm going to do other than "I'm going home" after getting off of a plane.
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I had a similar thought.
And the typical self-denial statement "While the US is far from an actual police state" should more accurately written "While the US does not yet appear to be the worst a police state can be (after all, who knows what is in-the-works and we are on a very slippery slope as evidenced within)".
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Some people consider freedom of movement a natural right which would include unchallenged movement within public spaces.
The only thing risky right now are ankle grabbers like yourself allowing this country, the US, to be allowed to creep slowly and assuredly into the authoritarian category.
It's not like we have an ongoing state of guerrilla warfare now is it? Rebels? An impending invasion perhaps? No, I didn't think so either.
I, for one, am not willing to die for a country that is no longer willing to let me live. That would indicate that this country is not the same country that I was living in a mere decade ago.
What you're alluding to in your pissed off little rant is not, by any logical measure, freedom.
I will be happy when people like you are called out for being chumps. I would be happy if there were truly a state of ongoing threat that could possibly justify interrogation and checkpoints based upon the mere movement of people.
Safety does not equal acquiescence to the whims of a government corrupt with an intent to impose and require submission.
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How do you square that against sobriety checkpoints? They've been declared Constitutional.
Not picking a fight but clearly the government's interest in protecting and serving the public extends to using these checkpoints to enforce drunk driving laws. Could the same argument not be made here in the case of illegal immigration?
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It's funny, the same people complaining about all this questioning and junk-exploring are also arguing to require citizens to produce ID to vote...wtf?
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Of course not. An actual terrorist would be as compliant as necessary to draw as little attention to themselves as possible.
Of course, no one bitches about metal detectors. The only reason we bitch about the naked scanners is because they're a horrendous invasion of personal privacy and they just might give some people cancer but they certainly won't stop any terrorists. Every attempted terrorist attack on airplanes in the past decade involved people flying INTO the US from OUTSIDE of it, where there are no naked scanners. There's no point in naked scanning a terrorist already in the US because - surprise! - they're already in the US!
That reminds me of the liquid ban. Once again, if someone has liquid explosives and they're already in the US, it's too damn late to stop them from blowing shit up. Same thing with the shoes, if you have a bomb in your shoe while in the US, it's too damn late to stop them from blowing shit up. Oh and by the way, both the liquid bomb plot and the shoe bomb plot were launched from outside the US.
On to the screeners. I have no problem with screeners asking generally vague questions. When they want specifics, like addresses or names, they can go fuck themselves.
Lastly, regarding your straw man, no one - and I mean no one - says there should be no security at airports. Do you honestly believe that pre-9/11 airport security was as insecure as standing on the streets of Syria?
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The USA is the finest possible police state in existence! The kind where the blind-sheep citizens bleet in little circles and crow loudly about their 'freedoms' while the despotic fascist regime does whatever it wants.
Were I the intentional creator of such a perfect Machiavellian machination, I would be immensely proud.
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I'm quite shocked by this, having travelled in some less than democratic countries, where you see checkpoints in and out of every city within the country, where any clerk can hold you back indefinitely for any reason.
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Idiot...
Whoosh!
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Re: [Success!]
9.9 of 10.
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A new thing to pack
It'll be a packet of lies -- just like the "terrorists"
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Or are you just going for an ad hominem attack?
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Did I read that analogy correctly?
Ummmm isn't the problem in Syria the government attacking the civilians?
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TSA Agent: We have a terrorist here, he's trying to use his constitutional rights...........
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Who are these same people? Everyone I've talked to who thinks that the TSA is invasive also tends to believe that voter ID laws are a solution in search of a non-existent problem (or, more specifically, a thinly veiled attempt at disenfranchising people they don't feel deserve the right to vote)
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Avocate of Freedom and rights they say...
jeez... you're contradicting what you guys said and promised about upholding human rights and basic freedom...
And to think We got Zealot of Trollzama(Hazama/Terumi of Blazblue) in the government...
What's next? You need People power to kick the hypocrites out of office or a bloody civil war due to strangling others freedoms and rights?
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I know what you meant, but it is stated ambiguosly. It would have been less ambiguous to have said:
"That's the problem. It's all being done silently and secretly."
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I paused for a moment, glanced towards the hood then back towards the trunk. "I don't think so....not that I recall anyway....maybe we should check?" We both cracked up laughing and I got out of a no blinker ticket.
That officer was trained on how to ask things like that. TSA officers apparently aren't. I didn't feel like he intruded upon me. I felt like he got to the point, found out what he wanted to know, and let me move on after doing his job.
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Lookit that!
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Fair enough. After we go through my stuff, can I head on over to your place so I can go through your personal papers, computers, closets and your wife's underwear drawer? You've got nothing to hide, right AC?
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http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120821/09094820113/nypd-spent-years-spying-muslims-gen erated-exactly-zero-leads.shtml#c173
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120416/13393018514/forme r-tsa-boss-admits-airport-screening-is-broken.shtml#c337
(also read follow up comments).
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120821/09094820113/nypd-spent-years-spying-muslims- generated-exactly-zero-leads.shtml#c252
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-13/news/chi-su spect-has-history-of-disliking-mosque-20120813_1_mosque-property-muslim-education-center-david-conra d
(and this is a stereotype, I have a lot of good white friends).
When white people disagree with someone or a politician they simply shoot them. That's not how democracy is supposed to work.
(Obviously most white people are good, but the media and the govt. try to paint Arabs as being the biggest threat to national security and democracy when that's not true).
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Busybodies grab your hatchets!
We still have a strange and pathalogical relationship with alchohol. Banning it and then un-Banning it and subsequent Blue Laws are all artifacts of this.
Doesn't make the checkpoints right though.
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A terrorist would call that a win-win.
I paused for a moment, glanced towards the hood then back towards the trunk. "I don't think so....not that I recall anyway....maybe we should check?" We both cracked up laughing and I got out of a no blinker ticket."
And that's how a terrorist would have done it. Open the hood - kaboom. Otherwise, detection evaded.
Massive fail on both your parts.
Oh, but terrorists never mislead. It's in their code of ethics.
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Not picking a fight but clearly the government's interest in protecting and serving the public extends to using these checkpoints to enforce drunk driving laws. Could the same argument not be made here in the case of illegal immigration?"
First of all, there is a fine line between enforcement and harassment. Should every single person who walks into a convenience store be subjected to a full-body search, y'know, to ensure public safety or whatever other nonsensical justification for violating people's rights? The police can wait somewhere in the shadows until they see somebody speeding or swerving around on the road before pulling them over, the idea being that the officer is responding to suspicious behavior. That's far different than essentially needing law enforcement's permission in order to travel to and fro on the streets, just because they're "looking for drunk drivers" or whatever.
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Re: Busybodies grab your hatchets!
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If law enforcement wants to bully people into giving up their rights I am glad we have bullies like this guy refusing to kowtow to them out of threat of unfair prosecution.
He didn't insult them or anything. He just kept asking the same question, much like they did to him.
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They can and do set up checkpoint and stop all cars and talk to all drivers in the name of finding drunk drivers.
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And if you've been following my comments, I never implied that it wasn't an abuse of authority. I'm just saying that they're not attempting to obfuscate their police state tendencies.
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If you really are upset by this you need to relax
I will readily admit that the TSA agents I have encountered do not inspire confidence and most are completely untrained do properly perform this type of questioning. The screeners that work for EL/AL all have military backgrounds where they were trained to identify signs of someone acting suspiciously. Hopefully the TSA is stepping up its game (dramatically) in the hiring and training of agents who are participating in the pilot program.
Will there be agents who abuse their power? Yes. Will there be agents who "profile"? Yes. But that still is better that relying on technology that has proven completely fallible.
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So you consented to waive your fourth amendment right against unreasonable searches.
Read the cases as they come out. There was one essentially like that in the past week.
Do not waive your rights. Most judges will allow you to waive your rights unknowingly and inadvertently—it's your duty to understand and assert your rights. When you're talking to a cop on the side of the road, it's not a social chit-chat: The cop is well-trained to get your consent and waiver.
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What is interesting is that until a certain grade level, attendance at school is compulsory- unlike going to an airport or traveling down a public highway. I don't hear any bitching about screening for guns and other weapons in schools- how is this different?
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Assuming that is true, a TSA agent with the proper training and attitude should have been able to recognize that and defuse the situation.
Anyone can act nice and "professional" when everything is going their way. It is how someone deals with an "asshole and provocateur" that manifests true professionals trying to protect and serve or ignorant bullies and bureaucrats. When the chips are down, I have yet to witness anything but the latter in the TSA.
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There's a difference between a privately owned entity like a 7-11 and an airport or public highway.
The police can wait somewhere in the shadows until they see somebody speeding or swerving around on the road before pulling them over, the idea being that the officer is responding to suspicious behavior. That's far different than essentially needing law enforcement's permission in order to travel to and fro on the streets, just because they're "looking for drunk drivers" or whatever.
I don't view these check points much differently than USCG safety inspections. The Coast Guard will routinely stop boats for the purpose of assuring that they're meeting safety standards, in the name of public safety and assuring that boats are compliant with those laws. At some point, when you walk into public space your absolute privacy rights give some ground to the interests of the general public. The difficulty is finding the appropriate balance point- which is at the root of the discussion here.
That said, the guy in the video is a dickhead who harms his cause by acting like a total asshole.
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Re: If you really are upset by this you need to relax
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Re: If you really are upset by this you need to relax
Good point. El/Al is probably the fattest target out there and the Israelis have done an outstanding job with protection.
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I'm well aware of that. However, they're just one small step away from shifting from 'looking for drunk drivers' to 'looking for guns, contraband, explosives, terrorists, etc.' Yes, law enforcement is responsible for public safety but that should never be construed as justification for trampling people's rights.
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"Right" and "legal" are two different and distinct things.
Even the legality of sobriety checkpoints. In my state, they aren't legal. And I agree that they shouldn't be.
The public vs private space isn't the issue here. I can (and should be able to) walk down a public street without being subject to searches by the police without cause. That it's a public street doesn't enter into it. Likewise, and for the exact same reasons, I should be able to drive down a public street without being subject to searches without cause.
That sobriety checkpoints are legal in some places is in direct opposition with the clear intent of the constitution.
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You don't? You should have heard the outcry when high schools around here talked about putting them in. The opposition was so large that the project was canceled.
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What is interesting is that until a certain grade level, attendance at school is compulsory- unlike going to an airport or traveling down a public highway. I don't hear any bitching about screening for guns and other weapons in schools- how is this different?"
Gee, I don't know. Let's all just live in a state of constant fear and anxiety, with checkpoints at every major intersection and border, dispatch an officer at every entrance along with screeners and bomb-sniffing dogs. Nevermind your Constitutional rights. Let's roll out a full-scale fascist police state. Then you'll never have to worry about a thing.
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Really?
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Are you or are you not an American? If so, you are protected by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Many of our ancestors shed their blood for those very things, so don't take them lightly or you're in danger of losing them.
Then what are you going to do?
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Re: Re: Re: Busybodies grab your hatchets!
Just to be clear, while some states ban them under their state constitutions- there's no issue with the 4th Amendment. I don't know about the applicability to immigration checkpoints but the logic seems to follow.
"However, by a 6-3 decision in Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz (1990), the United States Supreme Court found properly conducted sobriety checkpoints to be constitutional. While acknowledging that such checkpoints infringed on a constitutional right, Chief Justice Rehnquist argued the state interest in reducing drunk driving outweighed this minor infringement."
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Re: If you really are upset by this you need to relax
"I honestly cannot understand why people would be upset by this pilot program..."
... then I think you showed us that you know the answer:
"... the TSA agents I have encountered... are completely untrained (to) properly perform this type of questioning."
Please understand that this is why we're upset... a pilot program sans training is no pilot at all, like actors holding a dress rehearsal before the auditions are through.
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Again, there is a trade-off between security and privacy rights, the argument is all about degrees. The douchenozzle in the video would have a much more valid point if the checkpoint was in Iowa than 40 miles from the Mexican border. Likewise a affluent suburban school district with no history of weapons and violence is in a different place than a violent inner city school district. A drunk driving checkpoint during the morning rush hour would be absurd, but not at 3 a.m. on January 1st. It's all about the situation.
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That supreme court ruling does not say there's no 4th amendment issue. It says the opposite: that the checkpoints are an infringement. It just argues that the 4th amendment violation is counterbalanced by "the public good" and therefore is declared constitutional by fiat.
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Actually, it's in the same area that a major school shooting occurred in a number of years ago. It was all the nation could talk about for a long time.
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Re: Re: If you really are upset by this you need to relax
;-)
Anyway, I may also be giving the TSA the (admittedly undeserved) benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are starting to learn from their mistakes and are trying to make things right (or less wrong?) going forward. So, therefore, I am assuming (hoping!) that, for purposes of this pilot program, the TSA did their own screening in the hiring process and spent a good amount of time on training as well.
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In this sense, it's always better to deal with the government. You have more rights with them.
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Re: If you really are upset by this you need to relax
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Still, he's an American asshole, as people have been trying to explain here. Assholery is a great way to invite physical abuse from another primate, but no legal grounds to curtail his legal rights.
It's the act of searching with no probable cause that, IMO, stomps all over our 4th amendment protections (albeit, legally abridged with precedence). Again being a self-absorbed asshole in America is probable cause of being an all too common American, nothing more.
You've mentioned before how polite the agents seem to behave, and I agree. However this is nonsequitur in a legal sense as well as in a real sense. Consider in parting this line (that should proabably be in the public domain even though it might not be, I don't know its just too fucking confusing):
"They're both totally devoid of hate, killing me just the same."
Tool
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I guess you don't get it: Terrorists and criminals use the "freedom" in the system to avoid detection. The use it to avoid getting caught, to avoid searches, to avoid having to explain their actions.
Roadside inspections, when carried out for ALL cars going down that road seem perfectly reasonable to me, no different than running a radar trap. What harm is caused to me rights (being asked what I am up to in general terms, perhaps having someone look in my trunk) is nothing compared to the freedom lost when some nutjob blows up my place or work, or when the neighborhood I live in gets turned into a giant crack den or illegal immigrant flop house.
Absolute freedom is like absolute intelligence: neither really exists. Ben Franklin spoke from a time that just doesn't have the issues we have today. You cannot keep wishing it's 1776 again.
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Think you got that wrong
FTFY
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Re: A terrorist would call that a win-win.
When you ask a point blank question out of the blue without warning your brain is processing a truthful response before you can consciously control it... unless you are specifically trained for this.
However, anyone that is typically going to blow up a plane along with themselves aren't the most cerebral people on the planet and if they could be trained easily for this they probably would have gone "hey, blowing myself up is a pretty stupid idea"
They won't say "yea, I want to blow shit up." but their first reaction isn't a flippant response either being a jerk or cracking a joke naturally. They'll get incredibly nervous or trip over their words. Some people do it anyways due to the odd nature of the question but the general feeling is more like "why would you ask something so stupid, I can't even fathom doing that."
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So it's a minor infringement and I think consistent with my earlier argument that public concerns in public space mean a lesser degree of 4th Amendment protection than you're entitled to in your own home.
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Re: Security as tight as a sieve...
Maybe there's a psychological term for this, but you're reasoning by instinct instead of intellect, and your instincts are leading you toward something other than security.
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Questions to ask and the OpenWatch recorder
To paraphrase the first President Bush, we need to develop a thousand points of light to combat this problem. As a first step, everyone should download the Openwatch audio and video recorder for their phone and turn it on as you approach these Constitution Free zones.
http://www.openwatch.net/
Then we should develop a set of questions to ask the TSA agents as they attempt to interrogate. Questions such as:
1) How much education have you received on the US Constitution? (or, do you know what the US Constitution is? or do you know that we have a Constitution or Bill of Rights?)
2) How much training have you received about the dangers of these types of programs and the slippery slope they can lead down?
3) Are you aware of any examples in history where these types of programs have resulted in the violation of citizen’s rights?
4) Are you familiar with the Milgram experiment?
5) Are you familiar with the Stanford Prison experiment?
Etc….
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It does keep going down this road because people like you keep forgetting what the fourth amendment is actually for. It's not to 'hide' things when you have something to hide. The text itself explains what it's actually for:
Emphasis mine. Fishing for evidence, no matter how innocent the individual, creates fear. It creates insecurity. The prohibition on unreasonable search and seizure is not there to protect the guilty from prying eyes. It was designed specifically to block broad discretionary authority. It's to protect the right to live in peace and without fear.
This is a false dichotomy and what's more it's based on the assumption that this shenaniganry actually makes us safer which has yet to be demonstrated.
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You're absolutely right.
Mr. Franklin and his comrades had to fight the world's greatest superpower at the time to be free, who had the world's largest navy and army. Now we're the greatest superpower, and we're giving up all of our rights against a few hundred crazy people in caves.
Mr. Franklin and the other Founding Fathers decided that when the US was a newborn and frail country, that it was more important to protect our civil liberties, even when we were the most vulnerable. Now that we're the most powerful country, and we are the least vulnerable, it's time to give up those civil liberties?
The terrorists have officially won.
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Must be why the Constitution is disregarded so often these days...
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But if you want me to give up my rights for your safety, you're going to have to give a better argument, something more persuasive than "I'm afraid there might be a terrorist in my bedroom closet, so you have to have a police camera in your shower".
Seriously, "when some nutjob blows up my place or work"? Does that happen to you often? In reality, I mean. As for your neighborhood turning into a flophouse, I don't see how it matters whether the tenants are citizens, or why you deserve protection from fluctuations in the real estate market. Your fears are irrational, your remedies are voodoo and you are much too keen to give up freedoms that were damned hard to acquire.
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Only after you've established that this shit actually works can we talk about the trade-off between basic freedoms and additional safety.
1776 wasn't that different from today. They too had a government that wanted to empower their agents to invade the citizens private spaces to assuage their own fear.
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Then, to be absolutely sure we're catching all the "terrorists and criminals", we should probably get rid of all this pesky "freedom", huh? I mean, it sure sounds like expecting a reasonable right to privacy is pretty unpatriotic when you have all this theoretical terrorism to consider. What's stopping us from mandatory TSA strip searches? What's stopping police from pulling over random motorists on highways to ask them where they're going and what they're doing? I mean, as long as they're either stopping everyone or a random selection of everyone, that's okay, right?
Those who see nothing but knives in the shadows will jump at their own. The sad thing is I completely understand and that makes it all the more sickening.
It's especially telling that you consider Franklin's quote to be out-of-date and irrelevant to today's society; I guess I'll just shred this Constitution while I'm at it. From the looks of it, you won't mind.
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It seems you would rather condemn his actions than to condemn the actions the brought about the situation. I find that submissive not too mention contrary to any entities that claim to wield a beacon of freedom.
Much like the guy in the red shirt - I commend him and approve.
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As for "better ways to protect against terrorist acts" I suggest not asking people these questions; it's just as effective and much less annoying.
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1) Act as an advocate for people in international dealings, as well as for healthly, multilateral commerce. Stop using economic threats as a means to press for American business entitlements and monopolies in other countries. Treat other countries with egalitarian style respect at least.
2) Stop rogue elements of government agencies from alienating entire segments of our own population, a la the Iran-Contra BS from the 80s
3) UA flight 93. God bless them.
Survival is a requirement that cannot truly be delegated.
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I still think the court ruled incorrectly, but I acknowledge that my opinion means nothing in court.
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Hows that drug war working out for you?
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Re: Re: A terrorist would call that a win-win.
I would absolutely react with quiet panic and stumble over my words. Not because of the odd nature of the question so much as the obvious meaning of the question -- "I think you're a terrorist" -- and the implication that I'm about to have the crap beat out of me.
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I think at this point in time we have to accept that violating even more of peoples rights is not effective and that terrorism as a threat is overblown. But between the fact that people fail to understand risk and the government is good at keeping people scared we continue to march in the direction of the US becoming more and more of a police state with no benefits to show from it.
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Do you argue the proper speed limit for a road with the officer when he pulls you over? Or do you start with the entity that sets the speed limit and request an explanation?
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You do not pull out teeth because your wrist hurts...
the root of the problem, the middle east
the answer to the problem, get the fuck out and cut off the flow of money
but then, it's MONEY, so that's important
so keep driving cars, buying oil from the enemy and quit your bitching....
(personal disclaimer, I have not owned a car in 10 years and walk or ride a bicycle, I do NOT support terrorist's.ours OR theirs )
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Where are you traveling? - Best answer
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and shockingly I almost never hear about car jackings, hmmm.
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ME: My junk.
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How are these roadside inspections going to stop the nutjobs, crack dens, or the flophouse? The only way they could come close is to have 24x7 checkpoints on every public street. Maybe I don't want someone to look in my trunk -- maybe my care bear collection is in there, and I don't want anyone to see it. Perhaps I keep my sex toys there. There are plenty of legal things that I might have that I do not want a record kept of. Or, maybe I am in a hurry and I don't want to be delayed.
I am perfectly aware of what happened on 9/11. I was at work in the Pentagon when it happened. But, Mr. Anonymous Coward, I am not willing to trade the things that made this country great just so you can have the illusion that you are a little safer.
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Yes, that's a favorite saying among my fellow cops. Whenever I hear it, I like to ask them, "If you stopped someone on the side of the road and when you asked if you could search their car, they responded, "Certainly, officer, but only if, after you're done, I can follow you back to your home and search it, go through your personal files, look at your browser history, paw through your wife's panty drawer, and give your kids' rooms a thorough look-over." What would your response be? After all, if you have nothing to hide and you're not doing anything illegal, you should have no problem with a total stranger picking and prying through the most intimate and private aspects of your life, right? On the other hand, if you don't want total strangers invading your personal space, even though you've done nothing wrong, why do you think it's appropriate or even valid to impose that standard on your fellow citizens?
I'm usually met with uncomfortable silence in response.
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> the system to avoid detection.
So the answer is to get rid of that pesky freedom.
Gotcha.
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> right against unreasonable searches.
> Do not waive your rights. Most judges will
> allow you to waive your rights unknowingly
> and inadvertently—it's your duty to understand
> and assert your rights. When you're talking
> to a cop on the side of the road, it's not
> a social chit-chat: The cop is well-trained
> to get your consent and waiver.
It's not like you can't reassert your rights at any time. Just because you waive them, doesn't mean they're waived for good.
If you were joking around and didn't really intend a waiver, and suddenly the cop is like, "Okay, pop the trunk so I can look around", you can still revoke the consent at any time-- even min-search-- and the cop is required to stop searching.
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> the video would have
> a much more valid
> point if the checkpoint
> was in Iowa than 40
> miles from the Mexican
> border.
CBP and ICE have extended their warrantless search zone to 100 miles inland from any border.
That makes the entire state of Florida a 4th Amendment-free zone.
Hardly what the Founders intended.
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its worked elseware
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> routinely stop boats
> for the purpose of
> assuring that they're
> meeting safety standards,
> in the name of public
> safety and assuring that
> boats are compliant with
> those laws. At some point,
> when you walk into
> public space your absolute
> privacy rights give some
> ground to the interests
> of the general public.
The vast majority of those boat stops are merely life preserver compliance checks, which has nothing to do with the safety of the public-- if I fall overboard and drown because I had no lifejacket, no one is harmed but me. It's just more nanny-statism, protecting people from themselves, and has no place in a free society.
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here we go:
My apologies to anyone french ;)
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No, we are an actual police state. Just take a look at the security measures implemented in downtown Tampa and St. Pete for a private party (the RNC). Brownshirt storm troopers and all.
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Re: If you really are upset by this you need to relax
But they operate in an environment where the risks are much greater. I might be less opposed to such procedures if we were facing a similar threat level, but we're not. Security should be proportional to the threat.
And this is the bit that terrifies me. At least with scanners and pat-downs, they're looking for physical evidence. Either something's there or it's not.
With this behavioral detection, however, we have to trust in the TSA people's subjective judgement -- and that is something the we have very little reason to trust. Now I have to worry about accidentally answering things wrong or in the wrong way and being subject to whatever-the-hell-comes-next when they think you're suspicious.
How is that not terrifying?
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Re: Police state.
You are not allowed to make political statements in Washington DC either - doing so will get you labeled a terrorist.
Another mark of a police state is having to answer questions about exactly where you are going, what are you going to do there, and why are you going there - the TSA does this routinely now even if you are a U.S. citizen merely flying to a different U.S. city. If you refuse, you are definitely getting swabbed and possibly strip searched. Pretty soon you will need your U.S. passport to go from one U.S. city to another.
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Step 1 is to stop being so afraid of terrorist acts and put the actual risk into perspective.
Step 2 is realizing that we don't actually need these kinds of measures because the relative risk is tiny.
The real danger that 9/11 demonstrated is using the airplane itself as a weapon. Being able to take over an aircraft and use it like a missile is easy to prevent simply by designing aircraft so that there is no passageway connecting the passenger compartment with the cockpit at all.
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I'm quite certain that previous to said states "significant changes" of drug law that there were equal amounts of loud objection and reasonable argument. Accepting that finally a platform was made available for the latter. We do not yet have a viable platform therefore any approach deemed appropriate, baring violence, is perfectly acceptable in bringing about some much needed insight into these things we are so clearly in conflict with.
So, no, I do not recognize your exception as justification to now allow an individual, any individual, to express, investigate, illuminate or disagree in general with present policy.
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But I bet that you eat, wear clothes, live under a roof, and do all sorts of other things that use oil. So you do indeed support all that comes with our oil addiction. You just support it less than most.
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Searched on our honeymoon
Did I mention I have a partial arm tattoo and my husband has long hair?
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Re: Re: Police state.
> up a political banner criticizing the
> Republicans and you will be in jail
> so fast it will make your head spin,
> assuming you haven't been beaten by
> the local cops.
Well, that's just a load of paranoid nonsense. I've been in Tampa all week for the RNC and there are plenty of banners and signs all over town put up by Democrats and pro-Obama voters. None of them are in jail or have been beaten for doing it.
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I think I'd rather risk being blown up at this point than to live in the place you think is safe enough to drive down the road and purchase your ice cream cone.
Freedom reigns as long as it's allowed to or as long as we demand it? You need to be checked to ensure you're enjoying your freedom in an authorized manner? I think you've lived a sheltered life. That or you've inadvertently been born to the wrong country. Or you simply like being on your knees.
We are not fucking sheep all of us. Your argument sickens me.
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I do have something to hide. I don't *think* I am doing anything illegal, but there are a lot of laws and they are always being re-interpreted. On top of that, I am not a lawyer. So I suspect if someone were to search my house and really wanted to find something, they probably could. I am not sure all my pillows have the tags on them. There may be a few MP3's that I have lost the CD that goes with them. I have decrypted and ripped DVD's that I own. Some cop who needs a bust could plant something. While they are rummaging through my house, somebody could knock over my family heirlooms.
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The Nazis used the same excuse, "I was just doing my job."
Pretty ironic how these officers are being paid to violate people's Costitutional rights. Being polite doesn't make it ok.
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We need more people in law enforcement who truly believe in the freedoms which our country is supposed to have guaranteed for us.
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So you are saying that the ocean is a foreign border?
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Re: Searched on our honeymoon
These people are the real terrorists, detaining and interrogating their own countrymen as if they were a potential threat, stomping on everyone's Constitutional rights.
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What people can do:
--Refuse to travel by any means involving the TSA or *enhanced* security; don't feed the machine
--If interrogated, refuse to answer any questions
--Do not submit to stop-and-frisk nor any other manner of unlawful search; let them arrest you if necessary
If everybody protested and stood up for their rights in such manner, the TSA would become ancient history. Unfortunately people seem to consider their security theatre more of an inconvenience than a violation, thanks in no small part to media brainwashing. Even so, it's apparent that people are becoming increasingly frustrated with all this nonsense.
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I suggest you watch the Frontline story called "Flying Cheap" then tell me how safe you feel on a plane.
We've got time to terrorize the citizens but not to make sure that they aren't breaking the rules about maintenance and time limits on pilots.
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New China?
> Overbearing agencies running a buzz-kill.
> Extremist over reaction nod nod nod.
> Democracy go bye bye.
> corporations love you long time.
> fear is the mindkiller n all that...
> freedom is a myth.
> welcome to earth when would you like to leave?
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So every time some lawyer quotes from the U.S. Constitution (words written hundreds of years ago) to demonstrate why his clients rights were violated, he has his head in the sand?
Terrorists and criminals use the "freedom" in the system to avoid detection.
So to win against the terrorist, who are trying to take away our freedom... we must give up our freedom so the terrorists don't win???
"When freedom is outlawed, only terrorists will have freedom."
Why won't law enforcement give up all their guns, since all "gun shootings" are done with guns. Yea, that will solve the gun problem... NOT! We would need to take away all guns from everyone to solve that problem, just like you would need to take away all freedom to solve the "terrorist" problem, which is exactly what they want!
We don't give in to terrorist demands by giving in to terrorist demands!
If you personally want to let someone search your trunk without probable or legitimate legal cause and give up your rights, that is your choice. In this country, others still have the legal right to say no to "security theater".
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Excuse me?
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TSA Crimnals
TSA. Growing the Police State and destroying the Constitution since 2002. Keep giving your rights away America, soon you won’t have any.
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Re: Excuse me?
It's a police state act, essentially. They want use different words but they are the same as "Show me your papers!" which, at least according to American media, is what repressive governments have angry men with weapons and the ability to black bag you demand at travel places like the airport or train station.
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Asperger, anyone?
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Airport "Security"
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Don't stand up for your rights, you may as well bend over and take that anal cavity search, its just routine procedure, right?
You are free now to carry on shopping at walmart sir, thank you for complying sheeple
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They didn’t want to pay taxes
They felt they should have more say than any other citizen at the time
so they committed a illegal terrorist war to get freedom by murdering British citizens to instill thier own way of life on others
guess it is how you look at it huh?
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Aug 30th, 2012 @ 7:32am
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Re: Asperger, anyone?
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Be what they don't expect...
Actually, I did the same thing when TSA was doing checkpoints in the DC Metro System--took them by surprise and they didn't know what to do or say.
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The Last Word
“Afraid to travel? Afraid they will win?
In my opinion, the terrorists have already affected nearly every single person in nearly every country.
You are afraid and believe you will get hurt by them? Then, they already won.