Court Temporarily Blocks School District From Suspending Student For Refusing To Wear Student ID/Tracking Device
from the maybe-someone-should-ask-the-administration-to-wear-one-during-the-work-day dept
A few months back, Tim Geigner covered the story of a Texas school district's efforts to track its students' whereabouts using student ID cards with embedded RFID chips. The district attempted to paint this "students-as-livestock/prisoners" effort as being there for the safety of students and staff. But underneath all the "safety" talk was a large pile of money that the school district hoped to pocket. The so-called "Student Locator" project Texas' Northside Independent School District was implementing put school officials within handout distance of nearly $1.7 million in state government funds.Although many students and parents have expressed their displeasure with the new program, it wasn't until a student at John Jay High School's Science and Engineering Academy opted out that any punishment had been handed out in connection with the RFID cards. Andrea Hernandez has refused to wear the ID card, citing religious and privacy reasons. In response, the school district has suspended her indefinitely, moving her to another high school in the same district that has not yet implemented the Smart ID policy.
Despite all the talk about "safety," the school district was more than happy to undercut the entire stated purpose of the Smart ID in order to keep Hernandez and her family from speaking out against the program.
The school offered a special lanyard with the RFID tag removed, in the hopes to put a damper on the whole situation. The student’s father refused the deal, however, because it came with strings attached.Apparently, the ID cards are so essential that the school district is willing to suspend a student for not wearing one, but not essential enough that the ID card needs to be fully functioning. Any stated concerns about "safety" are completely laughable if the district is willing to let students wander the school grounds untracked, sporting only plastic badges.
“He told me in a meeting that if my daughter would proudly wear her student ID card around her neck so everyone could see, he would be able to quietly remove her chip from her student ID card,” Steve Hernandez told WND. “He went on to say as part of the accommodation my daughter and I would have to agree to stop criticizing the program and publicly support … it. I told him that was unacceptable because it would imply an endorsement of the district’s policy and my daughter and I should not have to give up our constitutional rights to speak out against a program that we feel is wrong.”
It's pathetic that this attempt was even made. The school district's main concerns seem to be a) having students appear to support the program, b) using the RFID cards to provide proof of attendance in exchange for funding and c) shutting down criticism.
Unfortunately for the school, the attempted suspension is now on hold.
The Hernandez family decided to take action against the school with the help of the Rutherford Institute, a civil liberties and human rights group which immediately took the view that the school district is looking for more public funding, which it can only receive if there is proof of positive student attendance rates. Rutherford attorneys filed a petition for the aforementioned TRO, as well as immediate injunctive and declaratory relief alleging that the school’s actions violate Hernandez’s rights under Texas’ Religious Freedom Act, the First Amendment, and the Fourteenth Amendment.The Rutherford Institute's filing (PDF) states that the district currently has no policy or procedure in place that deals directly with the RFID badges, much less one stating that students can be suspended for failing to wear the new IDs. It also points out that requiring Hernandez to wear a nonfunctioning ID as a "show of support" for the Student Locator Project violates her First Amendment rights by compelling her to convey a message she does not agree with. The filing also claims that the school district's ID program clearly violates both her Fourteenth Amendment rights as well as Texas Freedom of Religion Act. According to Hernandez, many other students have refused to wear the ID cards, but none of them have been punished to the extent that she is, prompting claims of religious persecution.
“The court’s willingness to grant a temporary restraining order is a good first step, but there is still a long way to go—not just in this case, but dealing with the mindset, in general, that everyone needs to be monitored and controlled,” John W. Whitehead, president of The Rutherford Institute, said in a statement. While the TRO has been granted, a hearing on the preliminary injunction will take place next week.
All in all, this doesn't look good for the school district, which has pushed through an intrusive student surveillance program in order to secure additional government funding. The "safety" of the student body is just the sales pitch. Any supposed "concern" for student safety went out the window, along with the legitimacy of the program, the moment the district offered to remove the tracking chip. The audacity of the district's actions is breathtaking -- both the implementation of such a controversial program, and its response to this student's refusal to participate.
The only other situation in which human beings might need to be constantly surveilled at an individual level is at a maximum security prison. But if you're willing to treat minors looking for an education like dangerous convicted criminals, there's no telling what your next "bright idea" might be. Here's hoping this early effort leads to the entire program being scrapped before it can do any more damage.
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Giving up freedoms to get more state funding = a wrongful violation of human rights.
We got one of those situations right, now if only we could get the other situations right involving national security.
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The school offered a special lanyard with the RFID tag removed, in the hopes to put a damper on the whole situation. The student’s father refused the deal, however, because it came with strings attached.
Its not surgically implanted, its ID cards with RFID chips attached
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Only for those who fall for the "but but but terrorism" BS. For everyone else, the Patriot Act is a clear and dangerous violation of Constitutionally protected natural and human rights. Just as bad if not worse than this school RFID crap.
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PLEASE remember, these are NOT adults. They are not giving up rights because they don't have those rights...yet. They are not responsible for themselves yet. Fourth amendment? I can't wait till these kids start claiming fourth amendment rights for the parents to NOT search their bed room.
Keep in mind the school is legally responsible for these kids. They are NOT adults, the parents transfer responsibility to the school. So NO this is NOT the same as police requiring everyone implant a chip in themselves for tracking or tattooing a bar code on people. This is not physically altering the child in any way, it is not violating their body at all, why are people compairing this to tagging animals? I really hope they are not THAT stupid, and are just being overdramatic to pat themselves on the back. I could definitely be wrong about people though....
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"PLEASE remember, these are NOT adults. They are not giving up rights because they don't have those rights...yet. They are not responsible for themselves yet."
That is perhaps the most dangerous aspect of this whole thing. Because the students are still so young, this allows the system to influence them ina potentially dangerous way.
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> not giving up rights because they don't have those
> rights...yet.
The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
"Students do not check their rights at the schoolhouse door."
Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503 (1969)
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As part of the operation of the school they require wearing an ID, which allows for much more freedom than the already acceptable practice of school uniforms.
The students already are identified and numbered regardless of the existance of the badge. There's nothing new that is possibly a great injustice. RFID is what makes it wrong? Or the badge? Or the fact that the kid already has a SSN given by the government?
The RFID itself presents no harm to the student, and speeds up a process that is already in place. The process itself changes (roll call anyone?), but the purpose and the outcome is the same, tracking the student. nothing new.
A badge is what's wrong? How long have they provided school ID's? That isn't new and the only difference from a school ID is a clip so you can wear on your person. There are also badges/insignias/logos/etc, that function as the same purpose. Police officers have badges, and uniforms. City workers may have sewing or some kind of identifier on their clothing to mark them. It is already standard practice, so what is the problem?
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Beyond that, the potential for abuse is significant. We've already heard about school laptops surreptitiously taking photos of students in states of undress in their own homes. These RFID tags have the potential to track movement of students outside of school if they have their badges on them. They provide school officials with more information than they need to know. Attendance can already be done easily without them.
"It is already standard practice, so what is the problem?"
Argh. This logic is so flawed that pulling a Godwin is the clearest way to clear it up.
"Persecuting Jews was already a standard practice in Nazi Germany, so why was the Holocaust such a problem?"
No, I'm not saying that this is on the same scale as mass genocide, but the logic is the same. Just because something is already standard practice does not make it okay to continue or to escalate and spread into more areas.
[insert comment about how it's crazy to compare school officials to Nazi's here, which I'm not actually doing]
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Your argument sounds better if you have your facts straight. RFID chips have a range measured in feet. Maybe tens of feet if conditions are just right. Even if the student in question lived right next door to the school, no one would be able to track their movements.
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Anyone with the right equipment can detect RFID tags. Shopping malls have already talked about tracking shoppers by their cellphones without consent.
Not to mention that once this system is in place and accepted as standard practice, how much longer before someone suggests the school start monitoring shopping malls where truant students might hang out?
The whole scenario is ripe for abuse and I don't have to come up with every single one that could be bad because if you institute the system, you'll have an entire population of people amongst whom many people could come up with ways to abuse it that I haven't even thought of. If the system isn't in place, it can't be abused. Period.
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> it allowed the school to forbid conduct that "materially
> and substantially interfere with the requirements of
> appropriate discipline in the operation of the school"
That hardly means kids don't have rights at all because they aren't adults.
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After all, the school needs a PERMISSION slip to take a kid on a field trip. Why no permission slips for the chips?
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What you should be asking is,do they require a permission slip for the books they give the kids?
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Why is it this badge that is the somehow wrong, yet the ID numbers of citizens are already present and a requirement for legal employment, enrollment, and many other things?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4S5o6F66cw
Oh, and do notice at about 1:14 the swastika insignia. That's not fiction, that's hard fact.
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Minors have the same rights as adults. The only difference is that the parents or guardians of the minor are the temporary caretakers of those rights. A bit like power of attorney.
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The only reason she has to dubiously fall back on her religious rights being violated is that there is nothing else being even remotely violated. Although none of that stands up against the fact she accepts all the other more intrusive forms of government and non-government tagging and identification with no problems.
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Not really. Or, only in a very limited manner. The school, for example, does not have the right to authorize medical treatment.
When schools justify things like random locker searches, for example, they do so not by saying that they are the student's guardians, but that they are the property owners and it's their property.
As to the rest of your comment, I agree.
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> are transfering their responsibilities to the
> school as the caretakers of those rights, effectively
> the same thing.
Not voluntarily. The state forces parents to send their kids to school, so any "transfer of rights" is invalid, as its not voluntary.
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> private schools etc
And if those options aren't available, the parents can't just not send their kids to school, so it's still involuntary.
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An ID system utilizing RFID on a card would have been much more sensible.
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The real problem is clearly stated:
"Andrea Hernandez has refused to wear the ID card, citing religious and privacy reasons. In response, the school district has suspended her indefinitely, moving her to another high school in the same district that has not yet implemented the Smart ID policy."
It's religious persecution as the district she was in had no policy against not wearing the trackers and yet she still got punished.
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2) She's a kid, the school tracking her is their legal responsibility because they are responsible for her.
3) What's the difference between a mandatory tracking system and required tracking system? Why does a mandatory tracking system violates rights but a required one does not?
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2) The end doesn't necessarily justify the means. Just because someone else is responsible for the children's safety doesn't give them carte blanche to get away with anything.
3) Beats me.
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We don't even know if her parents tax dollars are going to that school because that's not the schools zone they're in.
The reason she's actually there is a separate issue where they try to bring in kids with good test scores to bring up the state average.
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2) The school is not responsible for tracking her. It is responsible for teaching her, and maintaining a safe environment through out the school.
3) There isn't a difference just in the terminology. The problem is in what the tracking system is designed to do, the whole "big brother" aspect, where you are practically followed and stalked as you go through the school, as opposed to merely carrying a non-tracking license.
In response to earlier criticisms regarding religious persecution (not yours), it isn't merely a claim if you are the only one of that religion who refused to use wear the tracker, and the only one who is suspended, while others not of your religion also refuse to wear it, and are not punished. It could be that it was some one randomly chosen, but the details aren't sufficient to determine if that's the case
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The RFID doesn't track her everywhere, it's not like a GPS house arrest ankle bracelet. It is meant to track her while she is under the schools care, among the large amount of other students.
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It's not responsible for tracking, because in order to do their jobs, they need only make sure the student is in class. Making sure they are in the building, but not in class, doesn't make sense, taking credit for the student being present in the school but "playing hooky" is the opposite of what it should be doing.
Want to verify the student is in the building? Give them a scannable badge, not RFID, then have them scan to enter, and to leave. Problem solved. This with out going overboard on monitoring that tells the exact location of each and every student, where they go, and at what time of day.
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And there's a clear issue with the kids safety without identification of who is intented to be there and who isn't. It's the same reason for badges in an office building.
So it must be the evil electrons that make this inhuman.Fine, get rid of the RFID tag and put a QR code on it. Is that still wrong to efficently keep track of kids, if so we should stop taking attendence at all.
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Truth is, we don't really even need a change to the traditional system, roll call is effective for this, and takes only a minute or two. The whole thing is just a ploy for more money from the district.
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RFID is GREAT for safety though. Let us say, during a fire, or evacuation of any sort, instant access to who is and is not inside the building. Very important information. Is there a parent that would really say, I would have my child burn in a fire while trying to find out if they made it outside or where they could even be in the building, rather than them wear a badge that could instantly tell if they are in the building and what room they are in. This isn't the same as 'track everyone for safety!', it is different because the school has the responsibility over the child's safety. It's no different a legal responsibility than the hospital that is responsible for your safety and has to bring you out in a wheelchair regardless if you want to walk or not. If it was cost effective (some may already do this) a hospital would use an RFID chip in their ID bands that they print your info on, although I'm sure many already have employee's badges with RFID in it.
I would be surprised if they actually went through any more trouble than having RFID readers at the entrances/exits of the building. It isn't unreasonable if they had readers at each of the classroom doors. I agree if they track that a kid is in the bathroom it MIGHT be going too far (as the teacher should already be keeping track of that anyways right?), it DEFINITELY is going too far if they know what stall the kid is inside the bathroom. But that doesn't mean that the whole concept of using the RFID is wrong because it could be mis-applied. Knowing the difference is important, and that difference is something these kids should learn instead of being taught to fear all of it.
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Here's another thought, what if the chip shows as active, and being in the school, because the owner gave it to a friend, who hid it in their bag, then left the bag in the school? Now you've got a false report of some one in the building who really isn't.
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And just to pour on some nightmare fuel, the school officials have also evacuated the building and do not have access to the computers which could tell them where the students currently are. UNLESS they took a laptop with them, are currently in a hotspot (no pun intended), and they can access this information from the Internet. But in order for this to work, it means you constantly have the real-time exact location of every student available from the Internet. Think about that.
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i wonder what it takes to get rid of an ID card?
*takes card off shirt*
wow not alot of security there.
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The school offered a special lanyard with the RFID tag removed, in the hopes to put a damper on the whole situation. The student’s father refused the deal, however, because it came with strings attached.
Its not surgically implanted, its ID cards with RFID chips attached
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That's true, just as it's true that people have the right to be suspicious of it.
As someone else commented, this is an attempt at conditioning the youth, setting a precedent, so that later on in life they'll come to accept being monitored 24/7 by big brother.
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Why the fuss over big brother for doing what businesses already do? A business can fire you for how you act in public, while off the job. Where's the outcry there? Sheesh, little late to the game on that one.
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think.
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hmph
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Think of the children!
It only makes sense and is consistent with precedent. If it can rarely occur that a student is a danger to themself or others, and this is worth forcing RFID tags; and if an odd terrorist or two per decade can force us to endure the TSA, then why shouldn't faculty have to also wear RFID tags and undergo the same security screening as the students?
Think of the children!
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Not so sure about this...
Look at it this way, there are already laws compelling attendance which leads to activities such as manually taking attendance/row-call and signing in/out of school for a variety of reasons. All of which are aimed at keeping record of your attendance/whereabouts on campus. This program just takes visual ID cards and adds an automated attendance gathering function. The move saves time for staff which, *could* be given over to actual teaching. Is it really that much more evil just because its automated instead of manual?
You don't hear outcries like this about corporations that require RF security badges just to walk in the companies door. Who track your every move through the building and time spent in each area in the name of efficiency....
Also, as a neo-pagan who honors my tribal heritage (Seminole Indian), I take pride in my beliefs and I will defend, not only my rights to them, but yours as well, to the best of my ability. But I cannot take her claim of religious persecution here at face value. Her family claims that the ID is akin to "The Mark of the Beast" and forcing her to wear it is persecution, yet do they also consider Social Security numbers, IRS Tax IDs, Driver Licenses and all other state and Federal numbers alike? If not, then this feels like false pretense, and cannot be seriously considered as a reason to ignore the rules.
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If the "rules" violate someone's Constitutional rights and religious views, the "rule" is at fault, not the individual.
As for that other stuff, when was the last time that you were forced to wear your IRS Tax ID, Social Security number, etc.? Yeah, I thought so.
I say good on that student and her parents. RFID is dehumanizing to the core and there's no excuse for treating students like cattle. The way the school district attempted to manipulate this student and then subsequently discriminate against her bespeaks a contempt for human rights.
I would be very interested to know which company is lending their services to the government/school district. Perhaps ...IBM/Digital Angel? Wouldn't surprise me one bit.
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As for the "The Mark of the Beast" literal meaning:
“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16-17
However, many denominations have expanded the meaning to any authoritative number/ID/symbol that is required by law or decree.
In the case of this child, how is the school ID, with or without RFID tech different from other state required IDs?
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Where it violates a person's Constitutional rights and religious views, yes. There's no valid reason why the school cannot take attendance just as they always have, by having the teachers call out the names of the students for them to raise their hands. It takes about a minute.
"Is mandating IDs, even without RFID or magswipe technology, a violation? If so, how does that compare to Licenses/ID Papers which must be kept on your person?"
Ah, but alas, you're not forced to wear them on your body. You may keep them in your wallet or elsewhere. As well, stuff like your SS card, birth certificate papers, et al. do not require RFID technology (and shouldn't).
"However, many denominations have expanded the meaning to any authoritative number/ID/symbol that is required by law or decree."
Considering all the attempts by government to undermine people's rights, I'd say they couldn't be too careful with regards to that sort of thing.
"In the case of this child, how is the school ID, with or without RFID tech different from other state required IDs?"
Already answered.
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This is just fear of technology, there's no new problems that arise with a badge and RFID.
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It is like the difference between police being able to tap your phone and listen in and the Echelon programme, or between putting a tail on someone and data-mining CCTV recordings: the technical weakness of older systems provided a level of protection for the common man against those with the resources to throw at surveillance, simply because no-one could afford the kind of fishing expedition we see nowadays.
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You are allowed to have your religion
I am allowed to worship Harry Potter
My "religious" beliefs that i am not allowed to wear brown shoes is as legitimate as yours and hers
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If they claim this ID program is the mark of the beast, then they must also claim that other required IDs are such. My question was, are they also suing for religious persecution over other mandated ID programs?
If not, then I see they're claim of persecution somewhat lacking from a legal standpoint.
Do not forget that Religious belief can be overridden by existing laws. An example would be requirement of providing medical care despite religious practices outlawing doctor/hospital care.
I do not believe there are any exceptions for Religious beliefs in existing state/Federal ID laws.
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If they claim this ID program is the mark of the beast, then they must also claim that other required IDs are such. My question was, are they also suing for religious persecution over other mandated ID programs?
If not, then I see they're claim of persecution somewhat lacking from a legal standpoint.
Do not forget that Religious belief can be overridden by existing laws. An example would be requirement of providing medical care despite religious practices outlawing doctor/hospital care.
I do not believe there are any exceptions for Religious beliefs in existing state/Federal ID laws.
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I should point out to you that some Christian debominations do not believe in vaccines. It has nothing to do with any stereotypical Christian beliefs that you mentioned involving "The Mark Of The Beast", this girl was punished for not wearing her tag for not just her rligious beliefs, but for her rights involving the 4th Anendment to The Constitution of the United States. Other students were doing the same thing and were not punished for it. Since the school she was at had no policy regarding punishment for not wearing the tag, it's pretty obvious it's religious persecution.
You need to do some reading on modern Christianity. Not to convert, but to make yourself more informed so you can put away your silly "Mark of the beast" assumptions.
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The same rights to privacy you have anywhere else - those declared in the Amendments to the Constitution.
Is it really that much more evil just because its automated instead of manual?
I don't see the RFID tags as evil. It makes a lot of sense. But the school's actions are reprehensible. Not allowing her to opt out of being tracked? Shady moves to limit her freedom of expression when she objected to the program? Expelling her, especially when they have no guidelines on tracking? Those cannot be supported.
Do I think she and her family are religious nutjobs? It is a definite possibility. But the only way I know to insure I have the freedom to not believe in any god or gods is to allow religious nutjobs to believe what they want to believe.
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> those declared in the Amendments to the Constitution.
The Constitution actually says nothing at all about privacy.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Not so sure about this...
> > about privacy.
> 4th Amendment to the Constitution of The
> United States has to do a lot with it.
Odd, then, that when the Supreme Court magically discovered the heretofore unknown right to privacy in the Constitution, they never mentioned the 4th Amendment as its source. They laid it all at the feet of the 14th Amendment and mysterious 'penumbras of freedom' that apparently only old men and women in black robes can detect.
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Re: Re: Not so sure about this...
What she wants is to choose how she is being tracked and she gets that freedom. She is part of a voluntary program to attend that specific school. She no longer agrees with the program's requirements, so why should she continue to go to that school?
If there are other kids that are able to opt out, I bet they live in the school's district and the school is required to allow them to attend, while she is brought in under agreements from a different district that must allow her to attend their school. So compared to the other kids she has actually has a choice between the two schools where she has more freedom of choice, but somehow because she doesn't like everything about one of her choices, they have to change for her... Doesn't sound conceited at all does it?
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Re: Not so sure about this...
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Re: Not so sure about this...
Most people think the slippery slope is a fallacy. You seem to think that it's a requirement. At her age, how many of those things has she actually encountered at an age where she could do anything about them? And how many of those actually involve her having to wear them around her neck to facilitate government tracking?
I would also point out that the district attempted to force her to stop disagreeing with the policy. There is no justification for THAT. Even if the school wins the religious argument, they cannot win the free speech one.
"But I cannot take her claim of religious persecution here at face value."
So what exactly is your theory on why she opposes this enough to go to court over it?
"You don't hear outcries like this about corporations that require RF security badges just to walk in the companies door."
Yes, I once worked for a company that had ID badges and even fingerprinting. But I was free to quit at any time. I assume people who oppose this sort of thing would not take such a job in the first place. You might say, "but this student was free to transfer to another school!" True, but those other schools do not offer the same classes. You might then say, "How is that different from me going to a different job that might not offer the same benefits?" It's different because the school district, which is a government body, has an obligation to provide equal opportunities for education, while a business does not have an obligation to provide anyone with a job.
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In all honesty it's probably a good idea to have an RFID system to count attendance. The problem lays in where and how you deploy such a system. At the entrances of the school, I see no problem. But the school mentioned in the article has the RFID reading equipment scattered throughout the building...including the bathrooms. Some people don't like to be tracked and as it's been proven in certain other cases involving student rights vs school policy, the schools have been proven unreliable in keeping the constitution in mind when it comes to making policy.
That being said, the problem here is that Hernsndez's religious beliefs (not entirely religion alone) do not believe in the method they implemented. She got suspended based upon said beliefs.
As for the tracking throughout the building, and as heavy handed as Texas laws regaurding truency are concerned, a tracking system like that should be completely unessecery.
Outside of First and Fourth Amendment concerns, another major problem can occur. Districts and schools could easily skew the numbers based on attendance by having multiple tracking stations throughout the inside the building. It only needs to be implemented at the door.
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As this story demonstrates, it's foolish to simply accept everything that happens. I find it curious that they attempted to silence the student into not talking. Just what do they have to hide?
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From the Wired article:
"Like most state-financed schools, their budgets are tied to average daily attendance. If a student is not in his seat during morning roll call, the district doesn’t receive daily funding for that pupil, because the school has no way of knowing for sure if the student is there."
But with the RFID tracking, students not at their desk but tracked on campus are counted as being in school that day, and the district receives its daily allotment for that student.
Texas has some pretty stiff laws in relation to school attendance overall. Parents can be fined/jailed for their children not attending school or for proof that they are participating in an approved Home Schooling program.
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But why is the funding tied to attendence?
What would you do for a million dollars?
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Wait, what?
——
Portraying this as "tracking" is a little over the top; these aren't GPS transponders, they are RFID tags, that get scanned when you e.g. go through a door. It's likely they can tell who is at school and that's it. Want to have some fun? Get scanned on the way in, and put your ID in a shielded pouch before you go home. The system will think you didn't leave.
As far as religious "mark of the beast" objections go, I hope the student doesn't own a cell phone, or ever plans on getting a debit or credit card.
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Re: Wait, what?
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Re: Wait, what?
She would have NO objection to magnetic strips on her. People will be able to track you throughout the building...this includes bathrooms. So the fact that other students. If you want to take accurate attendance try using a photo ID with a magnetic strip. Do not track students everywhere they go.
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Re: Wait, what?
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Safety is in the eyes of the beholder
Revelations 13: 16-18, which warns of the Mark of the Beast:
"[16] He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, [17] and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[a] the name of the beast, or the number of his name. [18] Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666."
Oppressive measures are always imposed on young people in schools first, so that when they grow-up into adults, these oppressive measures will seem common place to them in their adult lives. It's called "conditioning".
RFID chips can also be used by pedophiles to track children's signals on their way home from school. RFID chips also stores a student's social security number inside the chip, which leaves them exposed to identity theft and fraud. So once again, this is about Government's "safety", not our security.
I still remember from my youth, when I was in elementary school, the teachers rounding up all us kids and took us down to the Principal's office. Inside the office was a Police officer, with black ink pads on the table. Every single one of us lined up, and the Police officer pressed our tiny little fingers on the black ink pad and then onto a white sheet of paper. Finger printing every last one of us.
I have no idea why I remember that day. I was very young, maybe 6 or 7 years old. At the time I didn't think anything of it. I was told it was for my protection, but somehow I think it had more to do with law enforcement's desire to have my identity in a finger print database, than it had to do with "my" personal protection.
I wouldn't be surprised if hospitals take DNA samples from newborn babies at birth these days. Seems like it would be standard policy handed down to hospitals by the government without parental consent. Just remember who's "safety" they're really talking about.
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Re: Safety is in the eyes of the beholder
Hey! That's the combination I have on my luggage!
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Re: Safety is in the eyes of the beholder
That's why whenever I see those commercials by companies like Cisco and IBM where they paint this gloriously intelligent world wherein everyonea and everything is being tracked a-la 1984, my stomach turns. These people have BAD intentions.
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Re: Safety is in the eyes of the beholder
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I don't buy the mark of the beast crap, that's just fanaticism.
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The Nazis used the IBM-created Hollerith machines to montior the Jews and others inside their concentration camps. So what's the difference between that tracking system and the school district's Smart ID system? Both are being used for the SAME purpose -- to track people.
This is a social engineering project, period.
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The very fact that the school district tried to manipulate her into silence really doesn't paint a trustworthy picture, especially where pertaining to supposed "security" matters (which I suspect is just a convenient scapegoat).
Imagine if I tried to con you in order to guarantee your silence ...a violation of the First Amendment. You wouldn't like it very much, would you?
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I am sure that some of the more creative students will soon be defeating the system in various ways.
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Bah
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Lead by example
After all, if they are really that harmless, then the best way to convince the students of it is to wear the things themselves, starting with the top(the principle, or whoever is pushing to have the things implemented).
If the higher ups objected to doing so, as I would very much expect, then shelve the program, as that would indicate that they themselves didn't think it was as harmless as they were presenting it as to the students.
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Re: Lead by example
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Huh?
> indefinitely, moving her to another high school
> in the same district that has not yet implemented
> the Smart ID policy.
If they're suspending her, why do they need to move her to a different school?
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The step from bar coded photo ID to full RFID is potentially huge though and it has potential for a lot of abuse depending on the exact implementation.
Still, it is not the technology or even the card that is problematic in any way in this case: It is how it is used and the rules around it! That distinction seems to be lost in this discussion, while it is crucial for understanding the issue.
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A Big and Troubled School.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_High_School_(San_Antonio)
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John Jay are the Mustangs. You don't track Mustangs.
Unfortunately, the NISD only sees $$$$$$, so to hell with student privacy. Almost makes me wish I still lived over by Jay. I just hope the Comal district I live in now does't try this crap.
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Everything old becomes new again
The school backed down.
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Re: Everything old becomes new again
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What's the difference?
Is this not just a much more efficient way of doing that?
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Re: What's the difference?
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Privacy?
As long as there's no expectation on anybody's part that the card is used at all after school hours or off school grounds, what's the issue?
And it doesn't appear to me that it's just some sort of money grab by the school - part of their regular funding is based on students showing up. They want to make sure they are counting every last one that they can legitimately count. I'm not hearing anything that indicates to me it's some sort of a scam.
While I can understand the logic of trying to get one vocal opponent to appear to switch camps, and how that might seem to be a good result if it meant fewer students overall were causing trouble over this, I disagree with using that tactic. Even though it might make tactical sense, I think it's strategically misguided.
HM
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Re: Privacy?
Blah, blah, blah. Employ the common touch much? *vomits*
Yeah, that's the ticket. It's all about 'leaving no child behind,' right? Nothing at all to do with increasing funding while conditioning students into blind acceptance of an Orwellian state, to say nothing about religious discrimination by the school district.
Carry on.
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As for "blind acceptance of an Orwellian state", do you get really good radio stations on that tinfoil hat of yours?
HM
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In any case, I actually suspect the religious thing is more a position of convenience than one of conviction.
HM
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Re: Re: Re: Privacy?
Contrary to your argument, people DO have religious freedom and so, if the student/parents object to the RFID because they feel that it is evil, it's within their right to do so.
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But, yes, even the wackos in our society have the right to be wackos, as long as their ridiculous beliefs are sincerely held and are not interfering with legitimate and reasonable societal functions.
I don't see any significant difference between RFIDs and regular ol' hall passes and taking attendance each period. Both are ways of making sure the kids are where they are supposed to be and that their whereabouts are known. It's just that RFID is fancier and more accurate.
Merely thinking something is evil is not a religious argument. I think Hitler was evil. What religion is that? I'm willing to bet they don't even REALLY know what the "mark of the beast" even is. They just know "it's bad, m'kay?" Or, as I suspect (admittedly with nothing but my gut and an inherent distrust of those who cling to extremist religions, as support), this is a very convenient excuse, not a sincerely-held religious belief.
As someone else (perhaps several others) has already noted, does this family also refuse to use driver licenses and other forms of ID? Do they refuse to use keys for their house? Are motion detectors "the mark of the beast"? If a security guard notes their entry to a building, has their religious freedom been trampled by the observation?
There are much more legitimate arguments on both sides of this issue. We shouldn't have to deal with someone who wants to shake their magic totems at the whole thing.
HM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Privacy?
That RFID is "more accurate" is certainly debatable.
"Merely thinking something is evil is not a religious argument. I think Hitler was evil. What religion is that? I'm willing to bet they don't even REALLY know what the 'mark of the beast' even is. They just know 'it's bad, m'kay?' Or, as I suspect (admittedly with nothing but my gut and an inherent distrust of those who cling to extremist religions, as support), this is a very convenient excuse, not a sincerely-held religious belief."
You're dodging the issue, that being that when other students opted out for various reasons, they were allowed to, yet when this one student opted out of the same program due to her religious convictions, she was discriminated against and told to go to another school. That is the core issue here. Regardless of what YOU personally think about religious people and their views, they have a right to believe as they do and that includes deciding whether or not something contradicts their faith.
Like I asked you before, if the school district decided that the students had to wear an ID with the Nativity on it, would that be objectionable? What if some atheist students objected because it clashed with their (lack of) belief and were expelled from the school? You wouldn't have a problem with that?
"As someone else (perhaps several others) has already noted, does this family also refuse to use driver licenses and other forms of ID? Do they refuse to use keys for their house? Are motion detectors 'the mark of the beast'? If a security guard notes their entry to a building, has their religious freedom been trampled by the observation?"
This is a total strawman predicated on your assumption that these people view every technology as being inherently evil. They don't, they simply object to the RFID chips, as do I.
Let me reverse the arument. Supposed this student objected to the RFID, not for religious concerns but for some other reason. Would her reasoning any more or less valid? The school district clearly sees a duality in the approach, hence why they attempted to boot her from campus. Religious intolerance includes discriminating against people due to their convictions. The school has no right imposing something upon her that she sees as immoral.
"There are much more legitimate arguments on both sides of this issue. We shouldn't have to deal with someone who wants to shake their magic totems at the whole thing."
If the school district forced students to wear a cross and atheists objected, then got expelled, you would be up in arms about how their rights were violated ...and you'd be right. But just because this girl chooses to believe in *one more God than you do*, you're acting no less discriminating as the school district in question.
You lambast others for their faith in a higher power, all the while you yourself are willing to place yours in a government-imposed tracking system. Good little sheep. "BAAAH!"
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Really
I honestly do not see the problem and wonder why there is such an outcry, yes remove the tags when they leave school at the end of day, but this is a great system to organise the school and to protect children.
Imagine how amny lives this could have saved if there was an accident or fire or attack on the school by some idiot.
Now i am not saying this should be used outside of school hours or even off school property.
I suspect the outcry is just people wanting to prove that they can object and have the legal right to do so.
What a shame as this really could help schools improve there performance in many areas.
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Re: Really
Yes, of course, TRACKING everybody will make them secure!
Sooo... what's your favorite book? 1984?
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NO! That does NOT make it okay, this girl HAS to go to school and the idea that everyone needs to be tagged because they could always just live on the street and starve to death as a 'viable option' needs to STOP.
If you think this, if you think that these institutions that a person has to interact with in order to live in our society is a 'voluntary transaction' and they are therefore entitled to do whatever they want to you, then you are an idiot and a tool. That goes for every person hurring and durring about how this kid has no rights and what little rights she had was checked out when she agreed to be the unwilling slave of a school that is clearly operating without scruples.
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Am I subject to constant surveillance because I carry a cell phone with GPS, much less NFC/RFID?
I also don't see the privacy concerns. They are not required to have it on when they are not on school property.
How much privacy is a student entitled to in a public school?
Obviously this school faculty handled this poorly, I don't dispute that, but I don't think the students arguments are valid either.
US schools have a ton of problems already though and they should probably work on improving their ability effectively deliver education before streamlining administration anyway.
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Safety Issue
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Stop wasting time and get to class
What is the chance that if these parents discovered their kid was killed in a car smash while supposedly in the "compulsory" maths class they would choose to sue the school district for not providing a duty of care to monitor student whereabouts? Meanwhile administration like roll marking consumes valuable minutes and contributes to the dumbing down of content as management needs consume mor write and curriculum crowding requires broader topics fit into the same available time.
The system sounds simple, uninvasive and efficient. Sure the school ballsed up the handling of "conscientious objectors", but complaints look like a mountain being made out of a molehill.
The religious freedom argument is an absurd aside and can easily be solved by parents taking their child to the nearest madras or convent.
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Re: Stop wasting time and get to class
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Re: Re: Stop wasting time and get to class
What is up with this blind acceptance of government-instituted Orwellian technology? Are people insane!? Maybe 'The Walking Dead' isn't so far-fetched after all.
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Re: Stop wasting time and get to class
You think so? What about the part where they can track each time the student enters the bathroom? What about the case where one student simply carries another student's ID in their pocket so the system thinks they are present?
And seriously, how much class time is taken by attendance? If you have assigned seats, this takes seconds. The teacher even could do it while asking students to pass their homework forward or something.
"What is the chance that if these parents discovered their kid was killed in a car smash while supposedly in the "compulsory" maths class they would choose to sue the school district for not providing a duty of care to monitor student whereabouts?"
If the teacher takes attendance and the student is not marked present, how exactly is the school responsible? And how does the ID help?
But I bet the parents would have a greater chance of winning with a similar lawsuit filed when the student skips school after giving their ID to another student to pretend to be in class, and the teacher fails to notice because they no longer take physical attendance.
"The religious freedom argument is an absurd aside and can easily be solved by parents taking their child to the nearest madras or convent."
A suitable insult to your dismissal of religious practices and beliefs does not immideately spring to mind, but consider me to have made it. Reasonable accomodations can and must be made. In fact, the district WAS willing to make some accomodations, but only on condition of student and family giving up their free speech, which shows the district's position to be unsupportable.
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Re: Stop wasting time and get to class
It is, if the objective is to track the rfid tags. Any relationship of the tags to specific pupils is assumed and not proven unless validated by a reliable identification of the person associated with the tag.
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More like Religious Privilege
The constitution should only protect your right to belong to your faith of choice, and to practice it in private, alone or with people who share that faith. It should not allow you to avoid doing something that everyone else is required to do in a public setting.
The only thing that accomplishes is discriminating against people who don't need to believe in myth to go through their lives.
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Re: More like Religious Privilege
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Re: Re: More like Religious Privilege
This is indeed a constitutional issue, but you admit they made it about religion. This is why I couldn't care less about this family's specific situation. They've chosen a ridiculous argument because they know bias will be on their side in a Texas courtroom. If they had asserted a right to privacy and freedom as the reason, my opinion would be much different.
YES, I AM SPECIFICALLY FOCUSING ON THE USE OF RELIGION AS AN EXCUSE.
Also, don't assume I'm an atheist just because I despise religion. While I myself have found no reason to have a belief in a higher power, I have not ruled it's non-existence an absolute. I also have no beef with personal faith (personal being the key word), but religion's only purpose is to convert more sheep to the flock, and to gain enough power to force its beliefs on those who are not a part of it.
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Re: Re: Re: More like Religious Privilege
Bull. Everyone else who opted out was allowed to, yet this one student objected for religious reasons and is discriminated against by the school district. That's a clear-cut violation of her rights. If you disagree then tell me, if the students were forced to wear a cross but a few students objected due to religious differences, then those students were expelled and told to go to a different school, would you not consider that a violation of their rights?
Yes or no?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: More like Religious Privilege
From the article: "According to Hernandez, many other students have refused to wear the ID cards, but none of them have been punished to the extent that she is, prompting claims of religious persecution."
It's an uncorroborated accusation by the party suing the school. The article says that parents and students complained, but no mention of anyone else opting out, especially no mention of them staying at the school.
" If you disagree then tell me, if the students were forced to wear a cross..."
Nope, stop there. It's either a christian school, so they wouldn't even be there if they objected to it, or the school is already violating the First Amendment by promoting a religion (I know it specifies Congress, but it should apply to every level of government). RFID is in no way related to religion, so your analogy, like most, is stupid.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More like Religious Privilege
They said, "...many other students refused to wear the ID cards, but none of them have been punished to the extent that she is..." This, in my view, demonstrates discrimination. If they take it to court, I guess we'll see.
"Nope, stop there. It's either a christian school, so they wouldn't even be there if they objected to it, or the school is already violating the First Amendment by promoting a religion (I know it specifies Congress, but it should apply to every level of government). RFID is in no way related to religion, so your analogy, like most, is stupid."
No, it isn't. You're just looking for a way around answering the question I posed, but anyone with common sense knows the answer anyway.
As for RFID not being related to religion, for some people it violates their beliefs, as has been widely discussed over the past several decades, so to pretend otherwise is to feign ignorance. Besides the religious contention, there's also very serious privacy and human rights concerns over the technology, and with good reason. If it weren't such a big deal, nobody would be discussing it, simple as that.
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Fire every single administrator invovled, today
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"Protect the children"
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Re: "Protect the children"
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The school claims that this is about getting paid. They are so poor, they spent money to contract with AT&T to offer and maintain this system. Consider that.
And as I said over on Boingboing when they covered this...
To those who thought it was just when you arrived and left...
"The ID badge has a bar code associated with a student’s Social Security number, and the RFID chip monitors pupils’ movements on campus, from when they arrive until when they leave."
Yeah NO possible way for this to go poorly.
"The district, in a letter last week to the family, said it would allow her to continue attending the magnet school with “the battery and chip removed.” But the girl’s father, Steve Hernandez, said the district told him that the offer came on the condition that he must “agree to stop criticizing the program and publicly support it,” a proposition the father told WND Education that he could not stomach."
Our program is super important, but we'll carve out a secret exception for you if you shut up and tell everyone how wonderful this is.
"But with the RFID tracking, students not at their desk but tracked on campus are counted as being in school that day, and the district receives its daily allotment for that student.
“What we have found, they are there, they’re in the building and not in their chairs. They are in the cafeteria, with counselors, in stairwells or a variety of places, some legitimately and some not,” district spokesman Pascual Gonzalez said in a telephone interview. “If they are on campus, we can legally count them present.”"
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/09/rfid-chip-student-monitoring
So screw them if they aren't in the classroom, bleeding on a stairway... they were in the building pay us!
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RFID by the Numbers
2.You cannot be "tracked" by an RFID Badge except in a confined space such as your workplace or school.The max distance a passive RFID can be read is approx 70ft and has to be close to the reader that connects to the computer that contains specialized software.
3.The data contained on an RFID is usually just a ID# that corresponds to your profile contained in a database at your work or school computers.
4.Badges can be (and usually are when you leave work or school) removed or covered with tin foil or placed in a shielded wallet(Aluma Wallet).
5.They are a cost effective and efficient way of tracking large groups of people or things at the same time.
6.If you have a credit card you probably have one in your pocket.(Do you see anyone following you?)
7.You and your car can be tracked 24/7 via your cell phone and freeway cameras and license Plate readers.
8.When you are in public areas you are being watched via surveillance cameras.
9.When Apple introduced the iphone5 people were upset that it did not contain NFC (RFID).
10.The most popular Android phones contain NFC...people seem to want it.
11.Walmart and other big retailers use RFID to control their inventory.When you take home your package it still contains an RFID Chip.
12.Pedophiles Cannot track your children because they have an ID badge with a RFID chip.They can be tracked however by watching them or following the bus.
13.RFID chips do not contain a camera or microphone.
14.Bluetooth is like RFID...just different freq.
15.Location of an ID badge is only reported to be near the closest reader.( if a child is in the restroom and the reader is in the hallway then the child is in the hallway)
16.Thousands of companies, government building and schools worldwide use RFID.
17.Mark of the beast! You just can't argue with religious nutcases.They're always right even when they're wrong and can sometimes be amusing.Mostly they're harmless with some exceptions.(George Bush and certain members of the republican party,for example)
18.If you go out of your house you are in public areas.
If you are in public areas you have zero expectations of privacy.RFID doesn't change that one way or the other,and you can be tracked and watched without RFID.
19.I for one am for anything that keeps my child safe.This is only a tool and when used with other safety items such as cameras and diligent security personnel and teachers, is welcome as far as I'm concerned
20.Bluetooth is like RFID...just different freq.
21.I feel bad for the student for having such a stupid father but the school handled it badly too.They should just drop it and go back to the old way of tracking your kids.
22. If you're a Tech and you don't know this stuff about RFID, I'm sure you're a fine person, but i'm glad I don't work with you. For all the others...Do a little research before posting and you may be taken a little more seriously.
People are afraid of technology because they don't understand it.But with a little knowledge the fear can easily be replaced with frustration and confusion.
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Re: RFID by the Numbers
3 - School spokesman said tied to their SS#
4 - In a country where instructions for irons include "Do NOT attempt to iron clothes while wearing them." common sense is dead. I see people with work IDs on all the time, because they forget they are there.
9 -10 non of them are in charge of a group compelled by law to be there. People freely making the choice is different than spending tax money on a system to get funding.
12 - you underestimate them. Someone will do it to prove a point, and quickly be arrested as a threat to children.
19 - This does not keep children safe, this reports bodies (alive or dead) contained within the school so they can get paid for each kid.
21 - He was offered a deactivated unit as long as he publicly embraced the program. If the program is so important why carve out a secret exemption to get another cheerleader.
No one wants to talk about how much AT&T is being paid.
No one wants to talk about the privacy concerns that have stalled this program in MULTIPLE states, and they still can offer no clear answers.
No one wants to talk about just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
No one wants to talk about how long data is retained in the system, how else it might be used beyond counting, the implications are actually staggering. Well we busted these students for drugs and the network says you were there. We have zero tolerance get out. Sounds silly, but these are schools... where they expelled a small child for a GI Joe sized rifle in his pocket... because they have zero tolerance about guns.
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Re: RFID by the Numbers
1) True, some idiot posters forgot these were ID badges and not implants.
2) True, and if someone invents a way to make the RFID trackable from significantly longer range it will probably be public knowledge.
3) That would be the sane way to do things. In real life they probably actually use the SS number as the ID. Yes, schools are actually this stupid. The college I went to continued doing this even after they were ordered to stop.
4) What, you expect people to actually wear a tin foil hat so they can stick their badge in it? And how do you even know if that is working?
5) Not really if you're trying to track students with an interest in hacking the system. And leaving aside intent, there are so many students at a typical high school that even if each student forgets their ID only one time during the course of the entire 4 years they are there, that means that pretty much every day there are students without a badge.
6) This is voluntary, and most high schoolers don't have credit cards.
7) I object to license plate readers that read every plate that goes by just becuase you can. Cell phones can be turned off.
8) Maybe and maybe not. Not everyone lives in a large urban area, and if you REALLY want to you can cover your face in public.
9) 10) So what?
11) Most people won't have to carry around that packaging farther than their house, and they have a choice as to where they shop.
12) Probably mostly true. A devious enough mind might be able to find some use for the things - for example, if they gain access to the main database or if certain information is on the chip, with the RFID scanner they could call any child by name even if they've never seen them before. I can't imagine that happening very often.
13) Well, that's good. I mean, THAT would be BLATANTLY illegal. I assume they also do not contain asbestos, lead-based paint, swine flu, self-replicating nanobots, or trans-fat.
15) So I guess this depends on exactly how the readers are placed.
16) That's nice, but there's a difference between "uses RFID" and "involuntary tracking of students".
17) I know it's popular to bash religion, but they have a religious belief and a right to believe in and practice their religion. The school must make a reasonable accomodation.
18) This is not entirely true. Your expectation of privacy is greater than zero. It would be illegal, for example, for someone to go around secretly recording everything you say. Also, at some point, unwanted manual tracking of an individual becomes stalking.
19) ANYTHING that keeps your child safe? Did you buy your child a bulletproof backpack, just in case? So you're the target audience for those politicians that do things "for the children". Anyway, this isn't for safety, it's for funding. if a student is going to go smoke in a secluded part of the school, they aren't going to be wearing their ID while they do that. Heck, if a student leaves in the middle of the day, they have the choice of leaving their ID with someone else or just taking it with them knowing they can't be tracked beyond the school gates. You think someone is monitoring the RFID of each student 24/7? And on many days, some of the students are SUPPOSED to be outside at any given time due to PE, which would make a alarm system difficult.
20) You said that already as 14. And so what? I've never heard of a school mandating Bluetooth.
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Re: Re: RFID by the Numbers
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Re: RFID by the Numbers
In fact they've already tried to push for RFID implants, such as in hospitals, but they cause tumors due to radiation. The Humane Society implants RFID chips in all of their animals and, apparently, there's been a effort to sweep under the rug just how much harm and death RFID implants have caused. For example, some RFID chips would work through an animal's body and get inside their vertebrae, causing death. Also interesting is that Myth Busters was going to do a show awhile back exposing RFID but were prevented from airing it due to pressure by backs/credit card companies, of all things, which gives new meaning to the saying: "follow the money."
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This is odd
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