Carmen Ortiz's Husband Criticizes Swartz Family For Suggesting Prosecution Of Their Son Contributed To His Suicide
from the foot-in-mouth-disease dept
As we've stated over and over again, it's a bit simplistic to place the "blame" for Aaron Swartz's suicide on the federal prosecutors, led by US Attorney Carmen Ortiz and her assistant Stephen Heymann. It is still quite reasonable to question their activities, but suicide is a complex thing and going all the way there may be going too far. Still, you can understand why Swartz's family did, in fact, directly call out the US Attorneys given their hardline position on the case, and the stress that created for Swartz. Lots of reporters have been contacting Ortiz and Heymann and the US Attorneys' offices and have consistently been getting back a big fat "no comment." Some reporters are even upset that no one put President Obama on the spot concerning the Swartz suicide at Obama's recent press conference. But, the stance of the government has been to avoid all such questions.However, some noticed that Ortiz's husband -- an IBM exec named Tom Dolan -- apparently felt no such restriction. He took to Twitter... to complain about the statement from the Swartz family and to further scold anyone who claimed that Swartz faced 35-years in prison. Amazingly, he chose to do this by taking on some "big names" in the tech and media world: Mitch Kapor, Dan Gillmor and the blog ThinkProgress:
![](https://i.imgur.com/G8Ogx.jpg)
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Dolan also -- conveniently -- ignores that the government supposedly told Aaron's lawyers that if he didn't take the deal, the next one they'd come back with would be worse, and that if the case actually got to court, they'd try to get the judge (notorious for strict sentences) to throw the book at Swartz.
The one thing that Dolan got right is that "35 years" probably wasn't accurate. But he had it in the wrong direction. The original four charges had a maximum possibility of 35 years. After Dolan's wife upped the charge count to 13, it was looking like the total could possibly be upwards of 50 years -- for a situation where Swartz didn't think he'd done anything wrong. In that scenario, the plea bargain is an insult, but the entire situation must be incredibly difficult. Dolan's response isn't just insensitive, but it's downright misleading.
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Filed Under: aaron swartz, carmen ortiz, plea bargains, tom dolan
Reader Comments
The First Word
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Obviously they are not the only culprits. They are but a symptom of a broken system. However they should be held accountable because they played a fairly big role in putting a huge pressure upon Aaron and we can assume quite accurately that this was one of the factors that weighted in his decision to take his life.
I don't blame the guy for trying to defend his loved partner. I don't blame Aaron's family for pointing fingers for losing a loved one too. The proper course of action would be resigning (both attorneys) and starting a comprehensive review of what leaded to this tragic outcome while attempting to fix it.
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-.-
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What a deal
Store Clerk: I haven't done anything wrong. What did I do? I'll be happy to fix whatever I've done.
Mobster: Too late. Me and the boys are going to break your hand, and you better sit there and take it.
Store Clerk: What? No way I'm going to sit there and take it. I like my hand. I'll fight you every way I can. I did nothing wrong.
Mobster: If you don't sit there and take it, we're going to break BOTH hands, plus your jaw, and your legs, and your arms. We'll make such a mess out of you, you'll be begging us for mercy, but it will be too late. Everyone will know not to mess with us again.
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Dolan's tweets
That he is very sensitive and kind person? I don't think that sensitive a kind person can survive a marriage to such a women...
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laws for thee
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Re: Dolan's tweets
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Very sad for all involved.
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Held accountable *how*? What law would you charge them with?
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Patterns of bullying
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Also...
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Affirmative Action
the kind Carmen Ortiz has received in her career.
& the kind she is receiving now from the people
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Um... so you're saying people close to him did what they could in going to the authorities to notify them of his problem previously... why weren't the authorities (who had been notified) getting him the help he obviously needed? Why was a prosecutor who would have access to this previous problem not take it into account in her bullying of him?
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The prosecution's threats actually carried MORE weight than a cyberbully's.
The disproportionality of all Copyright law is mind-blowing and the citizens (subjects?) are beginning to notice....
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Double standards
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Re: Affirmative Action
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Of course for that to work they'd have to lose their jobs and also never be considered for such a high level position in the future. But that's part of the responsibility that comes with such positions: if you fuck up royally and ruin lives, your life/career may be ruined as well. People taking such positions know (or damn well should know) this is the case, so they have no room to complain when it happens.
So basically they need to be "charged" with "doing a totally horrible job" and the remedy is losing that job.
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Re: Patterns of bullying
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Now where did I leave that...
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dolan
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Cause means...?
Conside what it would mean to spend the best years of your life in a human warehouse.
I would certainly call that "the main reason he committed suicide."
Sugar-coat it all you want, the justice system has turned into a terror system, where the leat transgression, if actionable, becomes ground to force the accused to knuckle under to the prosecutor's demands.
Remember the prosecutor in the Martha Stewart case, who use the threat to turn Martha's broker's assistant's life upside down and drag the guy through the courts for years (and bankrupt him) along with all the other bit players who might accidentally be collateral damage, unless Martha copped a plea on her charges.
Bully or pitbull is the kindest description of this behaviour, but it is typical nowadays.
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And people wonder why trusting these morons isn't in your best interest.
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Just sayin......
http://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasjdolan
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So his prosecutors offered to arrest him to keep him safe from himself? In what world would anyone -- particularly someone who is having suicidal feelings -- accept that offer?
I have a better alternative to what you proposed: how about not threatening someone who broke no law (aside from, maybe, minor trespassing) a felony conviction and jail time?
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It's called a trigger
Do I think the prosecution is to "blame" for Mr. Swartz' suicide? No.
Do I think the prosecution was the trigger? Yes.
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NOTHING wrong?
The bigger issue is whether the punishment sought was appropriate to the wrongdoing. It's entirely reasonable to ask whether the case should have been brought in the first place, or whether it should have been handled as a small criminal trespass case by the local police, or a civil case, or perhaps just a stern talking-to. And the fact that the US Attorney was offering 6 months is a very important fact. It's been reported by a couple of news outlets, including the WSJ and the Globe, but most stories just trumpet that the 35 year maximum for those charges. Nobody involved in the case, not Aaron's lawyers, not the prosecutors, not whatever judge was assigned to the case, would have thought for a moment that there was any chance Aaron would get 35 years. The fact that the maximum was ever trumpeted by the government was stupid, but now that we all know he was offered better, thanks to public statements by Aaron's lawyer and Ortiz's husband, there's no excuse to just keep repeating "35 years" as though that's the only relevant data point.
As for Dolan, he's acting like an idiot. And it's incredibly nasty of him to complain publicly about statements by Aaron's family. But while we're complaining about him, let's also try to keep in mind what he might be feeling over the weekend. The world is blaming his wife for this kid's death, and acting as though she, herself, was driving this case. So far, there doesn't seem to be any indication of that. And in most prosecutor's offices, the top person isn't in the loop on every case, and they certainly don't micromanage everything. With his wife being portrayed as having "relentlessly" pursued this kid until her committed suicide, it would be natural for a husband to want to publicize some of the facts that show she's not the ogre she's been made out to be. That's no excuse for Dolan's nastiness, and shame on him for taking that tone with the justifiably angry family of a suicide victim. But let's try to show some of the mercy and understanding that was lacking in Aaron's case.
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Re: NOTHING wrong?
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He shouldn't need any protective custody for his mental health. The prosecutor should never have been trying to get him to spend 6 months in jail for an extremely minor crime, if it even is a crime. The prosecutor most certainly played a role in this tragedy.
Spending 6 months in jail and forever being branded a felon is a way to ruin an innocent person's life.
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no limits
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FWIW though, Aaron's father did say something at the service today along these lines -that the government killed his son. (Of course, he hadn't yet put it this way when Dolan was tweeting.) Boy, do I feel for him, and the rest of Aaron's family, right now.
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Re: Also...
FWIW though, Aaron's father did say something at the service today along these lines -that the government killed his son. (Of course, he hadn't yet put it this way when Dolan was tweeting.) Boy, do I feel for him, and the rest of Aaron's family, right now.
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Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
"Stealing is stealing whether you use a computer command or a crowbar, and whether you take documents, data or dollars. It is equally harmful to the victim whether you sell what you have stolen or give it away."
That was made in an attempt to justfy her departments actions in pursuing the case. That means she not only let it happen on her watch but she condoned it. She bears responsibility as well.
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Call me an Ogre
I think it is entirely appropriate to blame the government.
As for Tom Dolan, his only saving grace is that it is his wife being talked about, but ultimately if he were worth his weight in salt he'd have been pressuring her daily not to crucify an innocent man on the Cross of IP.
Oooo... William Jennings Bryan, anyone?
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Secondly... who volunteers to go to jail for their own health?
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I read that too
I don't know.
From his station as a well known political activist, it could have been a positive boon to go to jail. There was obviously something about it that did not meet with his satisfaction though. I know when I was pretty broke in college and got a ticket for driving without a seat belt, the judge suggested it was perfectly acceptable to just go to jail, which I decided no to do because, holy crap, jail for a ticket???
He was facing more than an overnight stay, and for something he really did not do at that.
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There is no getting around that this whole situation was idiotic and led to someone being dead. That's not something to be dismissed lightly in my view.
Not that I am accusing you. I am just spelling out why I disagree with your defense of the prosecution.
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Re: NOTHING wrong?
He hid his face? Ooooh, horrors. Not because he knew he was doing anything wrong, or because he knew others thought he was doing anything wrong, but because he knew the powers he was dealing with might well try to demonize him despite the fact that he was doing nothing wrong.
Even his violation of the Terms of Service for JSTOR was not morally wrong. Rather, it is morally repugnant for knowledge to be locked behind a paywall - particularly knowledge that is used in the formation of public policy.
Yes, he did NOTHING WRONG, and was harassed by your government until he hung himself to death.
Hung himself to death? Are you paying good, close attention?
There is no excuse for your government in this case, nor is it at all appropriate in the wake of a man's senseless death to try to hang unwarranted blame on him for something he did by way of trying to make the world a better place.
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Re: What a deal
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Prison term is but one part of his possible punishment...
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As for his perception of his own actions, Swartz did return all documents to JSTOR, pay restitution and apologize. You can certainly argue the matter should have ended there, but you cannot say Swartz didn't know and acknowledge that his conduct was wrongful.
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Re: Prison term is but one part of his possible punishment...
To the best of my knowledge, no one other than you has suggested this is true. I don't suppose you have a citation?
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Swartz very obviously did what he did with JSTOR thinking it would allow him to return to life as normal, but I doubt very seriously he thought what he did was wrong for all the reasons I mentioned above and which you conveniently refused to comment on, most likely because you do not have a viable response.
Blaming the victim is not appropriate.
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Carmen Ortiz is a bully and our government should have no place for bullies.
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=)
I mean, I get your concern, but... it's no one's business. The prosecutor, on the other hand, should have been aware and, in any event, was harassing an innocent man, so to my mind is guilty of misconduct. The (other) authorities need to look into her behavior and treat her overreach with the seriousness it deserves.
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I think they are going to get away with it anyhow, and that's why it is infuriating to me that people are trying to paint this as if it were a tragic but unavoidable death.
It was gross abuse and something akin to negligent homicide, is what it really was. Yet many seem to feel honor bound to defend the indefensible.
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http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/
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If you are from a culture where girls break up with boys by setting them on fire, then I might see your point. But otherwise, your comparison is baffling to me.
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This person killed himself.
HIS decision.
Rather than face 6 months for breaking the law (whether you agree on the law or not, because that's fucking IRRELEVANT),
HE KILLED HIMSELF.
You want this guy to be your martyr? "oh I got caught stealing. But since I'm smarter than everyone else and I don't think the law is right, I shouldn't be punished."
So instead of doing 6 months, HE KILLS HIMSELF.
He was fucking pathetic and so are you people.
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One does not equate to the other in all circumstances. Aaron most likely was smart enough to know that others would consider his civil disobediance wrong, though illegal deserving of jail time is another thing. It may be wrong for me to call you a fvcking idiot (it is wrong), but it isn't illegal for me to do so. If a prosecuter then wants to considerate it crimnal and give me a few days jail time for that action of mine it isn't my duty to accept such egregious punishment even if I do admit what I did to be wrong. In fact Aaron actions demostrate just how focused the prosecuters were in making an example out of him for these actions, of admission and return of data, seemed not to factor in their charges. Your attitude in this comes off as a blanket defense of any charges levied against one for a crime regardless if a crime was committed and/or the punishment fits the crime. We have an explicit right enumerated in the Constitution against "cruel and unusual punishment" because of past overreaches by the agents of King George in prosecuting people for claimed crimes against the crown.
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Plea Bargaining
Prosecutor: "Unless you sign off on this speeding ticket, chum, I'm gonna throw the book at you. That's right, I'll charge you with everything! You will be in court 20 years at least. You musta done something."
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If he really had a depression, first step would be pills no matter what. Suicide watch is only an additional precaution. First question of interest is: Did he take pills or get offered pills?
If the pills work, the suicidal thoughts would go away in about 6 weeks after which he would be able to continue his case. Second question of interest is: Did the prosecutor offer to put the case on hold to give the medicine time to work if he took them or had his medicine had time to work?
If the first pills do not work or has stopped working, we are talking a serious medical emergency. In that case it is/should be considered reckless endangerment to continue the case.
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And you never just payed the fine or apologized when you knew in your heart you were in the right? No one ever just apologized or paid the fine to make the thing go away or from other outside pressure or just convenience?
"Ah, since you paid the fine you admit that you ran the red light!"
"Yeah, I apologize for getting a blowjob in the Oval Office."
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I think your point is that whatever the law happens to be, whatever the authority decides to do to someone, they need to accept it, because authority is always right.
Or maybe you are trying to say that Aaron killed himself because he thought he was too smart to go to jail?
Or maybe you are saying that Aaron is pathetic, because YOU would prefer 6 months in Federal prison over suicide? (And the 6 months is debatable)
Or are you saying that Aaron is pathetic because he had some kind of mental illness, and all people with mental illness are pathetic?
But as I try to decipher what you are trying to say, I become less and less interested in comprehending what hate you are actually spewing.
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Troll nutritionist
...yup, seems legit to me!
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Re: Re: Re: Prison term is but one part of his possible punishment...
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Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
To recognize these pretty plan facts is not to diminish one iota what an enormous tragedy his death is. Neither is it to let the government off the hook for what many of us see as a massive overreaction. But just because the government resorted to hyperbole and exaggeration in characterizing Aaron doesn't mean it's OK for us to do the same thing int he other direction. Aaron was a good guy. He was doing something he thought was ultimately the right thing to do, using methods that he, at least on some level, understood transgressed "the rules" as they stand. He was trying to change the rulebook itself, and make the rules better, and I think he was doing it all in good faith. But his actions make it pretty clear that he understood that, in this case, he was doing something that would upset the powers that be, and violate their rulebook. I suspect Aaron may not have understood how bad the reaction would be, but I think he did understand that there would be some reaction. He knew he was taking a risk, and it took courage to do that. So, when Mike writes that Aaron thought he was doing "nothing wrong," and you repeat it in a way that makes Aaron sound like a clueless babe in the woods, as though he never suspected that he might get in trouble for what he was doing. An it actually seems to diminish him in a way that I think doesn't give him enough credit.
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I don't know the specifics of Swartz's depression, but speaking generally... you do know that with chronic and long term depression there very often is no effective treatment, right?
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My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
I'm now pushing 60 years old (to my chagrin, it's probably worth adding); and I've been an IT professional and high-tech & general management consultant for going on 40 years (though my current thing in life is my now-nearly-full-time ministry of agency/advocacy to/for the homeless, disabled vets, the indigent elderly, the prostituted, recent parolees and others similarly in need). I was using what has become today's Internet since before it was, technically, that; and I was right in the middle of alpha and beta testing stuff during the pioneering of what is, today, the "worldwide web" part of the Internet in the early 1990's. And so I not only know Swartz's kind, but have both worked with them, and had them work for me. I'm also, for whatever it's worth, a fairly-far-left-leaning both socio-politically and theologically liberal/progressive lifelong Democrat; but I'm nevertheless assiduously law-abiding. I write all that, simply, to establish that I might actually know a teenie, tiny thing or two about all this -- but, as my ex-wife would attest, probably ONLY a thing or two -- to give what I write next a bit of context.
What Swartz did, bottom line, was unambiguously wrong. There's just no question or doubt about that, and there's no point in trying to sugar coat it or torture it to fit some open-source/hacker-type agenda. However, it's all a very tricky thing, really; an example, if ever there were one, of how our laws, today, haven't yet caught-up with the realities of an increasingly Internet/online-centric world; and how those who technically own all the intellectual property aren't adjusting thereto with a reasonable operational model. And the whole thing gets exacerbated and the opposite site get their backs all up because the open-sourcers/hacker and the intellectual property owners, both, use take-no-prisoners, scorched-earth tactics which just make both sides dig-in their heels and want to draw blood from their opponents...
...hence, at least in part, the intransigence of the federal prosecutor. It says, here, that the article is by "TechDirt," but, of course, it's actually Mike Masnick, on that website, who wrote the piece; and though I don't agree with EVERTHING he writes, he sure does know what he's talking about, and I have utmost respect for him. The most cogent thing he wrote in this article was this:
"To argue that the prosecution was fair because they offered him a 6 month plea deal is complete and utter hogwash. As many have pointed out, it doesn't appear that Aaron should have been facing any federal charges at all. The 35 years is completely relevant, because that's part of the hammer that his wife was using to pressure him into taking the 6 month plea deal so that she and her assistant could get a big headline about another 'guilty' plea. To act like the 6 month offer is some sort of 'leniency' is insane when you know the details of the case and everything else that came with it."
Amen! Swartz, I'm sorry, had become, as my ol man would have said, "too big for his britches" in any number of ways, as is common among child prodigies. The kid was beyond brilliant... the word "genius" doesn't even cover it; but, sadly, he knew and understood that, and didn't yet have the age, maturity and wisdom to properly parse and put into perspective what was going on. His lawyer probabaly tried to give Swartz the kind of perspective he needed to negotiate this mess, and maybe could have been better at it, who knows; but there is absolutely no question that the prosecutor, like most federal prosecutors (except, at least, my good buddy whom I won't name but who's a deputy US attorney in Indiana, and who's deeply moral and ethical and is on the side of the angels; and whom I wish like hell had been the prosecutor in Swartz's case) went too far; treated Swartz like she absolutely SHOULD treat some really egregious bad actor who really and truly DOES commit serious crimes that really and truly do harm people. Swartz was not such a criminal... and just how much of a criminal he ever really was is reasonably debatable.
Given those kinds of realities, the very least this prosecutor could have done is pause and reflect and research and learn; and consult with really smart people like, for example, Mike Masnick, just to name one, and try to get a feel for the realities of Swartz's kind of acts in the context of a truly complex modern world where such as intellectual property rights, and Internet freedoms and access, are struggling against one another based on laws which, seriously, need to be updated. Even the argument is complicated, to wit: While it could, of course, be argued that if the open-sourcer/hackers, like Swartz, would just stop taking things, just because they can, then maybe the intellectual property owners would be more amenable to discussion; but the hard reality is that unless Swartz, et al, force the hand of said owners the way they do, then said owners won't even come to the table. So, then, what to do, what to do. The prosecutor, et al, say that what to do is follow the law; but even some intellectual property rights owners say that said law needs updating to reflect the realities of the world in which we now actually find ourselves.
Oy. [sighs and shakes head in frustrated disappointment] It's a mess. One thing's for absolutey certain, though, and that's that Aaron Swartz didn't need to die for any of this. One of the greatest young minds in this nation -- yes, you read that right -- is now gone. Those of us who've been trained in suicide prevention and counseling know that no one -- and I mean NO ONE -- can ever be responsible for another person's suicide; however, young Mr. Swartz had only BEGUN to contribute and innovate and, yes, knock the status quo back on its heels a bit along the way in order to disabuse it of its inherent misguidedness. So young! His contributions, by the time he finished his life, however many years from now would, I promise, have been downright legendary. The sheer and unmitigated tragedy of his death cannot be underestimated; and the prosecutor's both ignorance of, and arrogance about that cannot be over-stated. Masnick really did say it best, to wit: "...it's a bit simplistic to place the 'blame' for Aaron Swartz's suicide on the federal prosecutors..." but, "it is still quite reasonable to question their activities," yet "suicide is a complex thing and going all the way there may be going too far," too.
Amen, again.
It's very sad. I hope that, somehow, something good ultimately comes from all this. I won't hold my breath, of course, but I'm just sayin'. And almost greater tragedy would be if the prosecutors, Ms Ortiz and Mr. Heymann, never even pause to rethink any of this... which, sadly, is the way it'll likely be.
Pity.
Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms.com
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But I can see someone like him getting depressed just by the in-the-face realization that some people are so cruel, that the system is so cold, and there is just nothing that you can do about it. I too become depressed when I think about these things, but I can just put it out of mind and dwell instead on snowflakes and unicorns. He couldn't.
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Re: Re: Prison term is but one part of his possible punishment...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
Can we drop the "only 6 months" bullshit, please?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
If you're like the vast majority of people suffering severe depression, you wouldn't be. In fact, you'd be very likely to actively avoid getting help -- if you even recognized that you were having a major problem.
You know this for a fact? Most people wouldn't. Most people, even close friends and family, when faced with someone who has problems with severe depression, fail to recognize the severity of the situation and even minimize it in their own minds.
A depressive person doesn't have a big red flashing light warning of impending suicide. In fact, if they're talking about suicide then they are less likely to be about to do it. In fact, a common warning sign of impending crisis is when they stop talking about it and even start acting uncharacteristically and inexplicably less depressed.
Given all of that, at what point do you take the huge, difficult, and complicated step of getting someone involuntarily institutionalized?
This is not easy stuff.
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Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
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Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Well, right up front you damage your credibility with a statement like that. I assure you that there are many of us who do not feel what he did was clear-cut, black and white "wrong" as you seem to think.
However, it's all a very tricky thing, really; an example, if ever there were one, of how our laws, today, haven't yet caught-up with the realities of an increasingly Internet/online-centric world; and how those who technically own all the intellectual property aren't adjusting thereto with a reasonable operational model.
And now, to me at least, your credibility is irreparably damaged due to the fact that you used the word "own" in conjunction with the nonsense phrase "intellectual property". Here's a pro-tip: you can't own an idea.
Having said that, I did read your complete post, and minus the two glaring issues I've already addressed, I hear what you're saying and I agree that Swartz will be missed.
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Re: Re: It's called a trigger
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Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
I don't see how returning documents, paying restitution, and apologizing indicates that he thought his actions were wrongful. It seems more likely to indicate that he was trying stop the harm that was being done to him.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
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Re: Re: It's called a trigger
If your question is whether a break-up can constitute a trigger for a susceptible individual, the answer is yes. There are a lot of things that can be a trigger, that's why the communities that help the survivors of abuse sprinkle trigger warnings on their commentary as appropriate.
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Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
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Re: Re: It's called a trigger
Do you really think someone suffering from depression is going to seek help?
I blame Mr. Swartz's depression for his actions, but the prosecution is pretty obviously the catalyst that triggered this particular breakdown. The fact that they were warned ahead of time that he was a suicide risk, and yet continued to threaten him with decades in prison/millions in fines/labeled a felon despite the injured party in question requesting the lawsuit be dropped certainly implies a certain level of negligence on the prosecution's part.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
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Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
This seems very ambiguous to me. What did he do that was unambiguously wrong? He didn't hack in, he didn't break any laws, he didn't access any information without authorization. Even the "he trespassed" accusation, although I grant it for the sake of argument, is far from being unambiguously accurate.
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
Key words right there.
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Defense Attorney
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
Manning, obviously.
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Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re:
Actually it's the most important aspect of the whole sad story. What he did was not illegal. The law was being used in a completely inappropriate manner, and not for the first time by a long way.
"oh I got caught stealing."
He did not get caught stealing.
Are you deliberately trying to look completely ignorant?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
#trollism
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
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Prosecutorial Misconduct?
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Felons lose rights
It will also significantly restrict the ability to travel internationally. Swartz, for example, would probably have needed to get special permission from Canada to be allowed entry.
In the tech world, the travel restrictions might prove more onerous than the other losses of rights.
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Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Please expound on this point.
What, as a self-proclaimed IT expert, do you think he did that was "wrong"?
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Felons lose rights
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Defense Attorney
Look, I'm no lawyer, so forgive me if I speak out of turn, but I do have three in my relatively close family and NONE of them think squaring off with the Feds is a cake walk, innocent or not.
You don't sound credible to me.
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Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/
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Re:
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Re: Felons lose rights
"Part I, Title VIII, Chapter 51, Section 1 of the Massachusetts General Laws describes the qualifications for voting in elections. In general, any person age 18 or older who meets residency requirements can vote in any election open to the general or appropriate local electorate. Disqualification can occur due to being a convicted felon presently "incarcerated in a correctional facility." A felon can also be denied the right to vote while they are under a legal guardianship or while disqualified where the conviction is "because of corrupt practices in respect to elections," whether incarcerated or not."
Read more: Voting Rights for a Felon in Massachusetts | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_7697575_voting-rights-felon-massachusetts.html#ixzz2IBrTgatu
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
http://web.mit.edu/bitbucket/Swartz,%20Aaron%20Indictment.pdf
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Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
What he was charged with were wire fraud, computer fraud, and something else related to such. Trespassing or anything like it is highly unlikely to be a Federal jurisdiction.
Just quite trying to make excuses for it, ok? He violated a terms of service agreement and the Feds trumped up some charges because they did not like his political activism.
There IS no Federal law against what he did.
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Note the complete lack of a "trespassing" charge.
These laws were meant to deal with people using computers to steal, not to download stuff that's already free.
He used his technical saavy to download things faster than the ToS allowed. These charges are bogus.
Theeeeee end.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
If there were a Federal crime to be had it would not matter to me if MIT wanted to press charges or not. But there wasn't.
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
That's where Kerr goes wrong, and I could care less whether he's a lawyer or a hamburger flipper. You don't prosecute people for violating a terms of service agreement. You let the people providing the service decide if they want to cut off their services.
JSTOR was quite clear that they did not want to do that.
So the Feds trumped up a load of bogus charges, and you're complicity here is shameful. Rather than making excuses for their evil, you should be demanding redress. Why are you not?
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Re: Re:
And by most of you.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
It conflates "authorization" with technical alterations to avoid getting his connection cut during downloads. He had full authorization to download.
Everyone and their dog admits he violated JSTOR's terms of service. That's not a Federal crime, I don't care how many shills you line up to imply he did.
I am disappointed in Kerr though. He is not normally someone who supports this kind of nonsense.
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Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
All the charges against him are bogus. They involve unauthorized access, when he clearly had authorization both through his position at Harvard and by virtue of being in the open MIT computer lab.
The things he knows he did that the system would call wrong were things that have nothing to do with the charges. He was shocked at the response because it was an illegitimate and wildly disproportional response!
There is no excuse for what the government did here. They trumped up bogus charges trying to make an effective prank-level violation of a generic terms of service agreement into something akin to using your computer to steal money or goods.
They lied. He's dead now, little doubt in no small part because of their harassment.
Now is not the time to wag the head and tsk at Aaron. It's time to take action against the people harassing him.
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It's fine
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-orti z-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck
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Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
http://web.mit.edu/bitbucket/Swartz,%20Aaron%20Indictment.pdf
http://www.volokh .com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/
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Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
Ok, buy I do blame her, and the Feds, and I am pretty sure blame is the word I mean to use.
The knew they were doing something wrong, and should have known there was a reasonable risk of causing him to behave in a self destructive way, seeing as harassing him was more or less the entire point of the exercise.
That, to me, is more than blame-worthy. Again, the issue is negligence. You can't just put a paper bag over your head, walk into a nursery, and start wildly swinging your baseball bat, and then get all mystified when someone "blames" you for hurting the baby.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
I can't remember the exact figure, but the average person breaks somewhere around 10 laws on a daily basis. If the DOJ turns it's eye on you, something "illegal" can always be found.
I asked Mr. DesElms why he thought it was "wrong".
Personally, I find it difficult to equate any of this to "wrong" since the supposed "wronged party" didn't even want to prosecute:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
"From Larry Lessig�s response:
Thanks for the forum.
An indictment is an allegation. It states facts the government believes it can prove. It isn�t proof of the facts. It is one side in a dispute.
Even if the facts the government alleges are true, I am not sure they constitute a crime. There is considerable uncertainty in this area of the law. Many wonder about the quick conversion of terms-of-service into criminal prosecution. But that�s a question the courts will ultimately have to resolve.
Nonetheless, if the facts are true, even if the law is not clear, I, of course, believe the behavior is ethically wrong. I am a big supporter of changing the law. As my repeated injunctions against illegal file sharing attest, however, I am not a believer in breaking bad laws. I am not even convinced that laws that protect entities like JSTOR are bad. And even if sometimes civil disobedience is appropriate, even then the disobedient disobeys the law and accepts the punishment."
You can read the rest here: http://mediafreedom.org/2011/07/larry-lessig-responds-says-swartzs-alleged-actions-crossed-ethical-l ine/
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Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
So much for standing on principle then.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Larry Lessig seems to disagree, read comment #157
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Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
What Aaron did was unambiguously right, and one of the problems I have with the typical "lifelong democrats" I know of is they are oh so very assiduous about the care and feeding of various social, nigh libertarian causes when it comes to tearing apart the fabric of our culture, and then pass right on by things like banking reform, IP reform, and limited liability reform. Or worse, Thom Hartmann-like, they address these issues, but only in partisan terms.
What Aaron did was take on the topic head on. IP, at least as it is being done now, and very possibly from its very inception, is the thing that is "unambiguously wrong" here. Aaron being "too big for his briches" as you call it, is your take. It's your opinion. And it's a pretty foul opinion to be hearing just a day or two after he hanged himself dead.
To reiterate, he did nothing illegal, and in my view what he did that people like you try to pass off as "unambiguously wrong" was about as wrong as Rosa Parks sitting on the bus. That is to say, not at all wrong, and in a very real sense recklessly and bravely right.
His mistake is taking the hate the world pours out on people who stand up for what is right too much to heart. He did not yet realize the scope of the evil he was dealing with.
In short, I don't think he counted on so many people being like you.
Faced with a situation where the government harasses someone until they die, you shrug, sigh, and say, "well, it's a sad story, but he had it coming on some level."
No sir. No, he did not.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
Otherwise he'd spend YEARS in jail, get labeled a felon and LOSE the ability to work in most places when he got out.
You DO realize that people with felony charges on them lose a LOT of rights, don't you?
Including...
The right to VOTE!!
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Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
I think Larry Lessig made a useful observation:
"I am not even convinced that laws that protect entities like JSTOR are bad. And even if sometimes civil disobedience is appropriate, even then the disobedient disobeys the law and accepts the punishment."
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
"You're a sad, strange little man. And you have my pity."
I mean, seriously, what is your point? That people shouldn't talk? What, do you think people didn't talk a good bit before they took up arms against England? Are you aware that journalism not entirely unlike what is done here at Techdirt was fundamental to ginning up support for independence?
Anyhow, I'm going to keep posting here, so ... have fun with whatever psychotic little head game you're playing. At least you're presence ups the traffic on the site.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
Otherwise he'd spend YEARS in jail, get labeled a felon and LOSE the ability to work in most places when he got out.
You DO realize that people with felony charges on them lose a LOT of rights, don't you?
Including...
The right to VOTE!!
God, you're a moron. Can you not read? From above:
"Part I, Title VIII, Chapter 51, Section 1 of the Massachusetts General Laws describes the qualifications for voting in elections. In general, any person age 18 or older who meets residency requirements can vote in any election open to the general or appropriate local electorate. Disqualification can occur due to being a convicted felon presently "incarcerated in a correctional facility." A felon can also be denied the right to vote while they are under a legal guardianship or while disqualified where the conviction is "because of corrupt practices in respect to elections," whether incarcerated or not."
And unlike some borderline retarded dipshit like you toiling in a menial job, Swartz was a genius and entrepreneur who had the skills and connections to secure a multitude of interesting work that would have afforded him great wealth. The notion that he would have had trouble securing employment is laughable.
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That one for starters.
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Robbing New Zealand to make the Hobbit?
If you want to do some real good, point us all to a site designed for organizing protests. I do believe they are called for. Maybe one of the "Occupy" sites...
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Nor am I convinced of that either.
I would however put forth that if the "protected entity" itself doesn't wish to prosecute said laws and had determined the issue to be resolved, then the continued (and perhaps pointless, since there is no longer a "victim" of these crimes) prosecution by the DOJ certainty isn't a "good" thing and perhaps needs to be addressed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
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Re: NOTHING wrong?
Probably screws being turned by the missus.
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Re: Re:
The charges were very fucking serious and have the potential to ruin someones life.
These charges we're not meant to be used on someone who was getting into information anyone could have got into. It was not hacking as some like to put it. The information cannot be found via search engines BUT it is still open to access easily.
Aaron knew this but he saw it in the way that IT SHOULD BE OPEN TO FIND ON GOOGLE for anyone in fact it should be open to find via any search engine.
They used the law to go after him because he was an activist and that my friend is why THEY FUCKING ARE RESPONSIBLE.
They should be put on trial for the absurdly gross misuse of the law.
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Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
Your answer appears to be yes. It's not a particularly complimentary picture that that paints of your ability to discern one thing from another.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
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Many thanks for your mind-reading Amazing Kreskin.
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That New Zealand has such a pathetic film industry that it whores itself just to be in the proximity of the bright lights of Hollywood says more about NZ than anyone else.
I'm waiting to see the video of your Prime Minister blowing the producer in the hope of landing the sequel.
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Lol... Thanks for clearing the last of my doubts about your character. I kept having this nagging feeling you had a point because, truthfully, I do feel there need to be actual, street level protests.
But clearly that's not your concern at all!
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Having addressed that, the other issue I have with Lessig is he keeps reiterating Aaron did something illegal, which he did not. He violated a terms of service agreement. That's not illegal. It certainly is not listed in the various indictments against Aaron.
Excuses pile up while the government abuses citizens. It's not as if Aaron is the only one that has suffered under the current IP regime. I surely wish you had better priorities.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Lol... Thanks for clearing the last of my doubts about your character. I kept having this nagging feeling you had a point because, truthfully, I do feel there need to be actual, street level protests.
But clearly that's not your concern at all!
Be sure to wear your Techdirt t-shirt so I can point out to the police those most in need of tear gas.
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Oh Good Grief!
Goober.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
And for the record, he was charged under the CFAA- which doesn't really deal with infringement.
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Why? You cannot slander or libel the dead, why can't you disclose details of the plea agreement. Privacy rights die right along side the individual. And who said he got the info from his wife? It seems like Swartz lawyer and plenty of others were blabbing away about the details.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2013/01/cfaa-law-and-justice-are-not-same-response-o rin-kerr
or the expert witness:
http://unhandled.com/2013/01/12/the-truth-about-aaron-swartzs-crime/
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
I hear what you are saying here and I for the most part agree with it.
I am just have a hard time reconciling the DOJ's persistence and heavy-handed use of plea bargaining in what seems like a victim-less case.
Maybe we should base our federal prosecutors' performance on something other than total number of "wins".
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/01/weve-lost-a-fighter-hundreds-gather-to-mourn-aa ron-swartz/
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
That's why we have 12 jurors, not 1.
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Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
First it's important to understand that people who suffer from depression don't necessarily want to get help. They might think nobody can help them, they might not trust a psychologist or they might fear the way society will look at them...
Second, you can't force someone to get help if they don't want to. A psychologist will not accept to see your 18 year old son if your son doesn't want to see him. The only thing you can do is bring your son to a mental health hospital if you think he's suicidal, which brings me to point three.
Third, bringing your depressed relative to a clinic to be kept there against their will is a very hard decision to make. Will it not make your relative more depressed to be there? Won't it hurt your relationship with them, making it harder for you to help them when they get out?
Will the clinic even help and if so, how? Will they cure the depression or will they just give your kid a bunch of pills? Or will they keep him there for 2 weeks, just make sure he doesn't kill himself, and then release him while he's still depressed?
You can't just call 911, tell them your child is depressed and paramedics come over and magically cure him.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
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Why you do this Dolan?
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Think about that, they had to remind them that they aren't allowed to hide evidence... and there are still investigations where this has happened repeatedly... and no one has been fired.
You think a body count is enough to get change?
They couldn't find enough evidence of wrongdoing when they looked into Goldman... think they will find any here?
Its cute he decided to defend his wife then wants to pretend he can delete it from the net... it is a wonder IBM is doing so well with execs that dense about the world.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
For example, statistically, a fourth of the world has parasitic worms.
"Scholars estimate over a quarter of the world�s population is infected with an intestinal worm of some sort"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_worm
Now, if you look at some of the symptoms
"One way in which intestinal helminths may impair the development of their human hosts is through their impact on nutrition. Intestinal helminth infection has been associated with problems such as vitamin deficiencies, stunting, anemia, and protein-energy malnutrition, which in turn affect cognitive ability and intellectual development."
Also read the "Immune response" and "Delayed intellectual development" sections.
"a number of pathways of parasite burden may affect cognition ... poor performance on normal growth indicators appears to be correlated with lower school achievement and enrollment, worse results on some forms of testing, and a decreased ability to focus; iron deficiency may result in �mild growth retardation�, difficulty with abstract cognitive tasks, and �lower scores...on tests of mental and motor development...[as well as] increased fearfulness, inattentiveness, and decreased social responsiveness� among very young children ... These connections are supported by a number of deworming studies."
...
[after a deworming session]
"�children who were listless and dull are now active and alert; children who could not study a year ago are not only studying now, but are finding joy in learning...for the first time in their lives their cheeks show the glow of health.�"
Don't the symptoms of these things very closely parallel the symptoms of depression? If one fourth of the worlds population has these infections, doesn't it stand to reason that a much higher percentage of people with depression and poor immune systems would have these problems? Why do dogs get treated for these things once every six months (I believe, or is it once a year) but humans hardly ever even get periodically screened? Our medical system needs to push for more screening on this and base their actions on statistics and not on whatever makes the most sales in anti-depression pills (well, I'm exaggerating).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
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Legal/Illegal, Moral/Immoral, Letter/Spirit of the Law
Many have made their views known and it may well bring about changes in the law.
However, we no longer have any opportunity to know what Aaron's thinking was. We do not have any opportunity to now judge what he did in terms of being moral or immoral. By her and her sidekick's actions as reported, it does appear that though she may have been acting within the the letter of the law but she and her sidekick doesn't appear to have been in the spirit of the law.
Her reported actions do however show that even though she didn't go out to murder Aaron (and in fact can't be blamed for his suicide as that is an act he is responsible for), she seems to have had the spirit of murder against Aaron (that is destroy him at all costs).
She is solely responsible for her own actions and she will be so judged for them, if not now, then at a later stage. All of us are that same position, we are solely responsible for our own choices and decisions.
Just remember, she and her sidekick will have to live with this for the rest of their lives and they will face condemnation every day from here on from their extended families, circles of friends (if not now former friends) and neighbours and others.
She can no longer hide who she is any more and this (without a fundamental change of heart on her part) will continue to come back and bite her over the years in all sorts of ways, including in time the possibility of her husband divorcing her because of this event.
I do not in any way want to be in her shoes going forward, nor for that matter in her husband's shoes.
What needs to be done is to support the family and friends of Aaron in their time of grief without making it a public spectacle and to revoke such stupidly written laws so that the defenders of the law don't act in collectively stupid ways.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Maybe this homeless man and your hypothetical custodian should be charged with criminal conspiracy for all we know this may be how Aaron gained access too... /S
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Why does it always crucify Christ, and excommunicate Copernicus and Luther, and pronounce Washington and Franklin rebels (though Larry thinks the should just accept it)?
While I respect Larry and his views on things this particular point of his is bullshit. Does Larry support the treatment of Bradley Manning, or his eventual punishment? Should Bradley just accept the punishment and not fight against it? What if they went for the death penalty instead, would that matter to this statement? Should Julian Assange accept his punishment? Should Thomas Drake have? Should Jesselyn Radack have? Should William Binney have? Is it really the obligation of anyone who is persecuted and prosecuted by the state to "accepts the punishment" of their disobedience to said state? No! For the state exists to serve us, not the other way around with us here to serve the interests of the state. Therefore, channeling Thoreau, violating the unjust statutes of the state is just and should be the endevor of a just people. "Unjust laws exist; shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?" And how, being people of dignity, can we accept the punishment for such trangressions for if the law is not just then the punishment too must be unjust. Therefore Larry in essence is calling on the disobedient to accept unjust treatment at the hands of the state. Is he thus intellectually honest in the extreme of this conclusion and think those accused of being terrorists and tortured under such accusations accept such punishment? Or those killed in drone strikes like the Americans Anwar al-Awlaki and his 16 year old son�Abdulrahman al-Awlaki (murdered in a seperate strike than his father's remind you) accept that? In the end this acceptance that he is calling for is all in service to what? To what ends does he justify this, and what does he think such acceptance will solve? Again, it is bullshit, and your use of it more so, for even if he puts forth a valid argument to his point he makes no claim that the rest of us are obligated in any way to accept such punishment of others for their transgressions!�
Sorry to all others in going so off topic, but I have a real bone to pick over this...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
I believe bullies might subconsciously know, but consciously they are so caught up in their power and have absolutely no conscious capacity to pause to consider their actions as being anything but justified. In other words, I believe Ortiz and those like her that created the environment to allow this to unfold are psychologically incapable of knowing consciously that they are wrong.
It's a primary consideration as to why this country is so screwed up at the Federal level.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
How about Tenenbaum? Hmm? Also had his life completely screwed by Lessig's propagandistic zealotry. Thank god that poor fool hasn't also offed himself.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Not entirely, of course, yet clearly as relates to the notions of human freedoms, of abuse of power against those not in power, of punishment so out of proportion to perceived violations of laws...
I also personally believe he was absolutely right to do what he did in the accessing of content, yet that too is just my perspective on this world we live in.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You don't believe in people having a discussion online? Or voicing their opinion online (other than trolls like you who have nothing viable to offer intellectually?) And let's clear up your utter clueless beliefs.
One way people in the United States can take action is by signing petitions. They are not the only action people can take. Yet they are one form of it. And oh how shocking. I found out that there WAS a petition related to this case because I read This article.
Further, I'm not an anarchist. I believe in government, and shock, even capitalism. I own a business. I pay taxes. And do so because I actually think while imperfect, they do at least help to keep streets paved, police and firefighters and military protecting our country and way of life.
I do NOT, however, believe that government, unfettered, and unchecked, is an acceptable concept. So maybe instead of the rest of us "anarchists", you might want to look in the mirror at your pathetic "contribution" to a noble dialogue.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
There's only so many high level jobs out there.
And those menial labor jobs? Yeah, there's no reason to be ashamed to do them.
Why?
Because someone has to do them.
Fast food, newspaper delivery, Fed Ex/UPS/USPS (package delivery), cashier, ticket taker, ETC. Yes, they aren't the best jobs.
But they have to be done.
And, just so you know, I live pretty well off for doing "menial" jobs. After all, I live in a house, I don't live with my parents (which is more than I can say for you), I have a job, and I can get stuff that I want fairly easily.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Now you know the answer to your question as to why they aren't on the streets.
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Re: Re: Felons lose rights
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Perhaps you need to view the comments in threaded mode. Then it will be perfectly.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
He's manically depressed AND on anti-depression medication. It's only a miracle that he's still alive, and we (his friends) are trying our damnedest best to keep him alive.
You, sir/madam, are talking out your arse.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
Last I checked, an IQ of over 120 was not borderline retarded.
Unless that changed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
I see you said nothing about the expert witness opinion.
Duly noted.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It's called a trigger
As a young adult, I was diagnosed with clinical depression. For many years, I routinely got into trouble, and faced "consequences" for my actions. Fired from jobs. Lost relationships. Lost friendships.
Nothing I did to help my own situation, and nothing others did to encourage me to get help mattered. Sure, sometimes it would get better. For a while. But inevitably, depression would set in again.
For me, it led to drug use. Rampant. Insane. Completely self destructive. And no matter the law, the ramifications, the harm it caused me or those around me, I did it anyway.
Most of the time, I did NOT seek help from others, let alone treatment.
When I finally reached the point of wanting to commit suicide, I told nobody. Those who had concern for my well being didn't know what to do. And nothing that was tried when I was offered help, ever came close to "fixing" me.
In my particular situation, that all changed when I was invited to 12 step recovery. The first time I attended a meeting, I was zoned out. Heard NOTHING that was said. And I went right back out and continued my life, thinking all the while, "I can deal with this". And "this is too embarrassing to talk about with others". And "that might work for them, but I'm different."
Six months later, I was invited to a meeting and went. Didn't even consciously understand why I was going, only that I "had to go".
Over the course of the next several years, I learned that others who really were like me, had found hope, a way to heal and become healthy, and that I too could possibly live that way.
It required completely relearning how to process thoughts. Completely relearning how to process emotion. I had to completely change my entire life.
Eventually I relapsed (after many years), and the depression, and destructive ways came back with a vengeance.
It took me NINE YEARS of living hell, again, to remember that I didn't have to live that way. Even though I had already experienced a better life. I'm blessed because that realization was 8 and a half years ago. And now, all these years later, I'm a productive member of society.
Yet even still, occassionally, I suffer from depression. From very wrong first thoughts. From very intense, unhealthy emotions. And I know now, from direct experience, that triggers are real.
And I've attended enough funerals of dear and close friends over the years that I know, for a fact, that the overwhelming majority of people who suffer similarly in any regard, do not seek help. And even those who do, mostly fail to "get it". And even those who "get it" mostly relapse. And most of those die. From suicide. Or from suicide by drugs, whether they be liquid or solid or gas.
And no matter how much family, friends, co-workers think they can help or can prevent it, more often than not, they are helpless to really make enough of a difference to save someone.
THAT is mental illness. No friend, no family, no doctor, no treatment, no pill can help all of the time, or for long enough in most cases. Because mental illness is too complex for humans to so far understand. And mental illness is still too much of a stigmatizing disability that society has yet to be able to resolve it in most situations.
So please. Having never lived in my shoes, I ask you. Stop making such assumptions.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re: Re: Re: Felons lose rights
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NOTHING wrong?
The only thing anyone can take from this is that you are the one with an IQ just above room temperature and you keep lashing out at people because you feel insecure about yourself.
BTW, I don't do the mopping.
Try again, boyo.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
I've already explained what's bs about Kerr's take on this. Aaron did not bypass authorization. He was authorized to be on the network. He violated the terms of service.
It doesn't matter how many lawyers you line up on either side. Violating terms of service is not illegal, and if it were it would still be an evil law.
He can't address that, so he tries to make his lame argument look rational by posting various one sided links.
AND he likes to try to get people not to post here. He's a weird dude, man. No need to pay any attention to him.
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Re: Re: Felons lose rights
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
Says more about you than anyone else that you don't think these opinions of other people mean anything; as if your opinion is the only opinion that matters, as long as it is shared by someone who is publicly more well known and respected than you. (Deference to the indictment and Orin Kerr's analysis, as if they were the only opinions on the matter, or the only ones that are important)
Well, here's another opinion.
http://www.litigationandtrial.com/2011/07/articles/series/special-comment/aaron-swartz-computer- fraud-indictment/
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Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
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Re:
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Hey, Tom J. Dolan: you're married to a murderer. And because you defend her actions, and aided and abetted her selling-out to corporations like yours (were you the biggest depositor, too?), which makes you an accessory to said murder.
Put em in D-block, they'll have full dance cards for a VERY long time...
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Tom Dolan
thomas_dolan@us.ibm.com
http://www.ibm.com/blogs/zz/en/guidelines.html
You can find his email from the IBM.com website just by typing his name in.
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Re: Tom Dolan
That's hilarious.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My comment about this article over on the "Opposing Views" website
I noticed that some screens were amber, others green. Mine was green. I was like "hmmm". Noticed on the keyboard a function key to "settings".
Clicked that key. Oh cool - I've now left my customer service screen and been taken to a settings screen. Oh - look - there's a setting choice for the monitor. Click.
Oh - how awesome is that? An option to switch to amber. #WIN
Next thing I know, there's a couple guys in suits up at my supervisor's desk, talking conspiratorially, and looking up at me across the room.
And in the blink of an eye, they were at my desk. Grilling me. "How'd you change your monitor to amber?" "Why did you do that?" "Who gave you permission to do that?"
What? Huh? Uh...
Holy crap. Fortunately I was not fired. Nor prosecuted. The function key was, after all, ON my keyboard. It worked when clicked. The settings screen gave no warning about unauthorized access. No alarm went off at my desk. My computer didn't crash. The bank didn't collapse.
All these years later, and I wonder what would have become of me if even just one person "in authority" wanted to "make an example" of me.
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Re: Tom Dolan
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Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
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I hope she loses her job, and is held up to so much ridicule she becomes an object lesson.
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Re: Re: Re: Dolan's tweets
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I, Carmen Ortiz, am a murdering cunt.
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Re: I, Carmen Ortiz, am a murdering cunt.
Awesome! Well said! I hope the slut reads this!
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Aaron Swatrz
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