Leaked! MPAA Talking Points On Copyright Reform: Copyright Is Awesome For Everyone!
from the well,-that's-one-way-to-go-about-it dept
With the possibility of comprehensive copyright reform in the US in the air, we warned that lobbyists from all sides were about to be very, very busy on Capitol Hill, and it has already begun. We've heard from very reliable sources that the MPAA has basically been blanketing Congress with the attached document, visiting as many offices as possible and leaving it behind as their talking points on why copyright is just freaking awesome.Of course, since this is the MPAA, the document is all sorts of misleading. Let's dig in a bit, shall we?
From the printing press, to motion pictures, to recorded sound, to the Internet, for its entire history, copyright law has evolved and developed in response to new developments in technology and the marketplace.Well, that's one way to look at. Another would be, from the player piano, to radio, to TV, to the photocopier, to cable TV, to the VCR, to the MP3 player, to the DVR, to internet video, the entertainment industry has flipped out and used copyright law to try to block the development of new technology and marketplaces, often against their own best interests. Given that, you'd think that we'd know by now to take the entertainment industry's claims about copyright law and new technologies with a rather large grain of salt.
The result is that today the U.S. copyright system is a cornerstone of a vibrant creative economy that is unparalleled in the world – adding $631 billion and over 7.5 million direct and indirect jobs in 2010 [Department of Commerce, IP and the U.S. Economy study], and making the United States a world leader in creativity, technological innovation and economic growth.It wouldn't be the MPAA if it didn't come chock full of bogus stats. First up, the Commerce Department report -- also known as the grocery store report, because it counts all 2.5 million employees of grocery stores as being the single largest employer in the "IP intensive industry." Because, you know, without strong IP laws, that checkout bagger wouldn't have a job. Of course, this highlights why the whole Commerce Department report is useless. It first broadly defines "IP intensive industries" in ways that are simply not credible (see above: Stores, Grocery), and then, ridiculously, suggests that all of the jobs in those industries exist because of existing IP laws, despite no proof of any causal link.
When you look specifically at "copyright," you see they lump in all sorts of stuff that would be made without copyright -- including advertising, public relations, scientific services, performing arts companies, newspaper reporting, "internet sites" and computer system design. Yes, some of those probably involve the use of copyright, but how much? The MPAA doesn't care, it counts them all for its team.
Second, note the claim that these are "direct and indirect jobs"? This is a standard trick of the MPAA. For years they go around citing "2.1 million jobs" implying that's how many the movie industry employs. Except, it's not. The actual number is 374,000. So they started adding in a hell of a lot of "indirect jobs," taking credit for the florists and hairdressers and food delivery folks and all of that. As if "copyright" had anything to do with any of that.
As for the US being "the leader" in this arena, as recently noted, many of the biggest entertainment companies are actually foreign owned, meaning that a significant portion of any profits is likely flowing out of the US.
MPAA member companies welcome a continuation of the ongoing discussion of the importance of copyright. We welcome a discussion based on facts, experience, and rational analysis.Coming right after the bogus numbers and claims, that's a pretty rich statement.
And we are confident that such a discussion will result in a renewed affirmation of the benefits to all of a copyright law that encourages and rewards creativity and breakthrough innovation, promotes distribution and enjoyment of America’s most beloved stories and characters, and takes a firm stand against the criminals who would rob us of those.I'm still waiting to see where copyright rewarded breakthrough innovation. I can give you a long list of where it hindered it. It's also not at all clear that today's copyright "encourages and rewards creativity." It clearly rewards some aspect of creativity, but as we've seen a decline in respect, and an increase in infringement, we've also seen a massive increase in content created. That, at the very least, suggests that there are other incentives at play. Furthermore, we reported on a recent study showing musicians making approximately 6% of their revenue from efforts that directly involve the sale of copyrighted works -- suggesting that there are numerous ways of "rewarding creativity" that have little to do with copyright. In fact, a strong argument can be made that with a focus on copyright, you end up with many fewer creators rewarded. But when you focus on other methods of supporting artists, the numbers go way up.
Also, really, if we're going to be talking about a discussion based on "facts" and "rational analysis," we really could do without the bogus and misleading use of words like "criminals" and "rob" for actions that are most frequently civil law issues, at best, and are potentially about infringement, not stealing. It's the little things like this that determine whether the debate will be an honest one or pure propaganda.
Copyright Empowers Creativity, Innovation and the Dissemination of KnowledgeThe promise of the opportunity to make a living gives creators an incentive to create and distribute their works. But just one incentive. And there's fairly strong evidence that it's actually fairly far down the list of incentives that lead to the creation and distribution of creative content. We have a pretty big wide internet filled with content that was created for no direct remuneration. For many, many people, the incentive to create is not because of money, but because they can't not create.
The promise of the opportunity to make a living doing what they love is what gives a creator incentive to transform his or her new ideas into reality and to take that new creation to the public. Creators deserve to be secure in the knowledge that they have a fair chance to earn a wage from their work and investment -- the works that contribute both to our shared culture and our national economy. The Constitution itself recognizes that the public’s interest in creativity and the dissemination of knowledge is best served by the incentives that result from recognizing authors’ and creators’ rights. If our creative sector is to remain the envy of the world, the law must ensure these public-interest purposes of copyright are not undercut.
Second, this entire paragraph assumes -- wholly without support -- that copyright is the only way to make money from creation. That's ridiculous, and easily shown to be false (as noted above with the 6% number). Lots and lots of people make money via their content without ever needing to make use of the power to exclude granted to them under copyright.
As for creators deserving a "fair chance to earn a wage from their work and investment," that's absolutely true, but what does that have to do with copyright? After all, under the "old" system that the MPAA used, the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people who wanted to become filmmakers had no chance at all to earn a wage from their work, because the only way to make a movie was to have one of the MPAA gatekeepers grant you permission. The fact is that most people who want to earn a living making content have failed at it. This has always been the nature of the content business -- and it's a point that the MPAA and other copyright maximalists never want to admit. Also, considering that thanks to the infamous practice of Hollywood accounting, we're told that most films lose money, then, it seems that the existing system isn't working to the level that the MPAA claims is necessary.
Finally, the Constitution says no such thing. It makes no claim that the public's interest is "best served" by copyright. All it does is allow Congress to create monopoly privileges such as copyright if it believes those serve the public. That's it.
Take Digital Rights Management technology, for example. Without the protection of effective DRMs, the business incentive to develop new and innovative distribution models, like UltraViolet, across multiple devices and platforms is lost. The technological and legal protections provided by current law allow content to be portable, enabling consumer flexibility on how to access it. Under current copyright law, the choice and cost curves are both bending in the consumer’s direction.Try to hold back the laughter here. After all, we're having a discussion based on "facts, experience and rational analysis." And, yes, the MPAA is trying to argue that DRM itself is a form of innovation, and they're highlighting Ultraviolet, a crappy DRM system that no one wants, that tries to enable a tiny portion of the benefits that everyone else on the internet figured out how to get for themselves a decade earlier. That's not innovation. No one needed UltraViolet DRM to distribute content "across multiple devices and platforms."
Limiting what consumers can do is never innovation. It's about trying to limit the impact of actual innovation.
Copyright Benefits Consumers by Promoting Free Markets and CompetitionYet another trope. As was aptly discussed in Derek Khanna's report for the Republican Study Committee, copyright is the antithesis of promoting a free market. The problem, here, is that the MPAA is pretending that any monopoly makes sense as "property" to create a market. But any competent economist will tell you that's hogwash. We can create all sorts of artificial monopolies to create markets to prove how ridiculous this is. For example, how about we put a pricing mechanism and the ability to exclude people from accessing air to breathe? We've now created "property rights" and a "market" for air -- and I'd imagine it would be quite a lucrative one, given the demand.
Copyright as it is reflected in both the Constitution and in current law recognizes that the public benefits from a competitive environment in which clearly-defined property rights enable the market to drive the creation and dissemination of creative woks. These rights foster competition because they incentivize creators to take risks. They encourage economic development and economic diversity. That’s good for the consumer and good for the economy.
And, of course, that would create "a competitive environment" that would "foster competition" by "incentivizing air creators to take risks."
But, of course, most sensible people would recognize that creating such an exclusionary right for something that is abundant is not a form of a free market, but rather is a massive inefficiency in a functioning free market.
The MPAA can argue, perhaps with (or perhaps not) reasonable support, that a system of artificial limited scarcity is a better net result, but it's not a free market by any means. They really should stop pretending it is one, because it really takes away from their point. They should be arguing the facts: that copyright is basically a mercantilist system of monopolies, emerging from the mercantilist era of protectionism. They can then make the argument for why that works better than an actual free market, and that would be an interesting debate. But pretending that the exact opposite of a free market is a free market is just silly.
Enforcement of existing copyright laws is also essential to ensure that illegitimate websites that profit from the illegal sale of content do not have an economic advantage over the innovative platforms that our companies develop to deliver high-quality content to consumers. Undermining copyright law would serve as a disincentive for future technological development and would harm consumers.As has been shown time and time again, infringement is generally a leading indicator of innovation. The reason that there are so-called "illegitimate websites" that are succeeding is based on one factor alone: the industry's own failure to provide convenient services that consumers want. So they seek other convenient services. If the industry focused on providing more value (as they grudgingly do over time) they'd easily compete with and beat those illegitimate sites and many more people would pay. That is, enforcement has been shown to do very little in terms of encouraging technological development. Infringement, on the other hand, has had a major role in driving many key innovations that are incredibly consumer friendly.
Look, for example, at the music industry. The labels fought any digital distribution for years, as newer, more innovative and increasingly convenient "unauthorized" offerings showed up. Left to their own devices, the labels created two of the worst music distribution services imaginable, MusicNet and PressPlay, which no one bothered to use. It was only when pushed by competition from better online offerings that the industry finally allowed innovation to happen, leading to increasingly innovative solutions, including things like Spotify today, which owes its history to things like Napster.
If not for such infringement, consumers would still be living in the dark ages, with the labels trying to keep any serious digital distribution from happening at all.
Copyright Supports an Internet that Works For EveryoneI don't think that copyright is at odds with the value of the internet. It seems to me that it's the MPAA setting up a strawman here. However, certain aspects and uses of copyright almost certainly do go against the values of the internet, which can be seen in the way people use the internet to inadvertently infringe all the time. Just look around at how many YouTube videos say "no copyright intended" while clearly infringing on someone's copyright.
There are those who would place the value of the Internet at odds with copyright. We reject that false choice. Freedom of expression is at the bedrock of both the Internet and the creative community. In considering policies surrounding the Internet, we need to recognize what the Supreme Court has stated repeatedly – that copyright is itself an “engine of free expression.” Not only does copyright itself promote creativity, but creative content has plays an important role in helping to promote the growth of the Internet. As we look at policy affecting the Internet, we must advance policies to promote an Internet that reflects the values that have been fundamental to us for hundreds of years, including freedom of expression, property rights, and protection of the rights of individuals. Good policy stays true to these values, resisting efforts that would pit one against another and recognizing instead that these values are mutually reinforcing.
As for "the engine of free expression," just because the Supreme Court says something, does not make it a reality. If we look at the last 100 years of history, and look at how much "expression" was created because of copyright, and compare it to how much "expression" was created because of technology (or, hell, limit it to just the internet), the technology/internet will win by a long shot.
The internet is, at its core, a tool for expression. That is undeniable. And, if we're going to talk about "property rights" and "protection of the rights of individuals" it needs to start with our rights to express ourselves, along with our rights to own what we legally posses. Copyright has gone against those rights in so many ways. It stops us from actually owning the music we thought we'd "purchased." It stops us from modifying our phones or video game consoles. It stops us from shifting a movie we purchased on DVD to our computer. So, sure, if we're going to protect "property rights" and the "rights of individuals" let's actually do that.
The reality, of course, is that's not what the MPAA is asking for at all. They want to to protect copyrights, not actual property rights. And they want to protect the exclusionary privileges of the large copyright holders, not the rights of individuals. However, if they're going to claim that they want to support free expression, property rights and protection of the rights of individuals, then I agree. I just doubt they'll agree with what that really means.
Copyright Provides Creators with Modern ProtectionsThe whole basis for this point is misleading. The role of any system of copyright should not be about protections, but about what creates the greatest overall benefit. The overall incentives should be aligned. The public wants great creativity, and creators want to create. So let's focus on what leads to that result, rather than jumping to the conclusion that "protection" is the key. Protectionism is often a way of limiting markets, rather than helping them grow to their full potential. So, why aren't we looking at what will incentivize the most innovation and creativity, rather than what will do the best job of protecting and locking things up?
Copyright law evolves over time. The last major overhaul of copyright law was the result of decades of Congressional work, much of it focused on fashioning a law that would be flexible enough to accommodate future technological change. But technology and the marketplace often evolve faster than the law. Fortunately, copyright law also provides the space for the private sector to collaborate to develop more immediate solutions. Content creators and intermediaries can and do engage in meaningful conversations about how to protect a secure, legitimate online environment for both creators and audiences. Any discussion of copyright law must include recognition of the critically important role that voluntary agreements play in ensuring the content and tech industries can both remain nimble in a rapidly-changing world.
As for flexibility -- we agree that any law needs flexibility to adapt to changes in technology, but it's laughable to think that's true today, given how often we've seen the MPAA flip out about changes in technology, and run screaming to Congress that the law isn't working for them. 15 new anti-piracy laws in the past 30 years? That's not a flexible system. A flexible system is one that doesn't insist that every bit of content must automatically be put under a copyright regime. A flexible system is one that doesn't mean a generation never got to see new works enter the public domain. A flexible system is one that doesn't tell people that downloading 24 songs may make them liable for over a million dollars. That's a broken system.
Copyright Provides for Incentives and AccountabilityA meaningful system recognizes that infringement is not the problem -- a failure to serve the public with what they want is the problem. A meaningful system recognizes that spending time, resources and efforts on stopping the unstoppable -- especially when it has little long term impact on the bottom line -- is not a sound or reasonable policy. The public's interest is being served all the time -- in large parts by innovation that is often driven by these services that the MPAA hates so much.
The public interest in the creation of and dissemination of creative and innovative products cannot be served in an environment in which some are free to build businesses based on the infringement of the rights of others. As infringement grows more widespread, sound copyright policy must recognize that the solution to such problems is in society’s broad interest. Any review of copyright must focus on whether the system as a whole provides for meaningful accountability on the part of those who infringe the rights of others, and whether there are adequate incentives for cooperation and accountability among other stakeholders.
And, again, this is the same MPAA that argued that the public's interest would be harmed by the VCR. And by TV. And by the DVR. And by YouTube. So it is hard to take these claims seriously.
Hopefully, most of the folks in Congress receiving this particular document will do some research on what's being said, and will realize that the MPAA's position is not one to take seriously. It is not one based on facts, experience or rational analysis. It is, instead, based on self-interest of a small sector of the economy -- a few large movie studios with a history of exploiting content creators for their own benefit. If we're going to have a real discussion on copyright reform, it has to be based on actual facts, not MPAA-style theatrics.
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Filed Under: copyright, copyright reform, free markets, incentives, innovation, politics, propaganda
Companies: mpaa
Reader Comments
The First Word
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Those outliers are on a direct trajectory towards becoming the SOP of normal policing activities by the very organizations that exist to serve and protect, in the name of the Constitution, the very people that finance their existence.His question stands.
Copyright, a privilege, as intended in Article 1, is rapidly creating conflict in direct confrontation to enumerated rights.
And I see that cunts can be idiots too. Pussy.
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Now I can start laughing.
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Congressians lean basic truths by divining the Holy Campaign Contribution spreadsheets.
It is from those inspired numbers that politicians are taught their position on Copyright.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/industry.php?txt=B02&cycle=2012
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Holy Mother of God! They tripled the number in 2 years (it was 2.5M) so by the end of the century they'll be employing the entire universe and generating every single cent of the galactic money.
Give me some of that weed!
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Not quite.. Two different things. The 2.5 million was about "movies and TV." The 7.5 is all of the "copyright intensive" industries. You know, like PR companies. :)
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By the way, copyright intensive industry would include the guy milking the cows in the barn?
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Won't someone PLEASE think of the fluffers?
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The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
Gotta admire your plucky resolve to prove you've been right all along, Mike, but in fact, you've not affected the industry at all! You're JUST a kibitzer.
Take a loopy tour of Techdirt.com! You always end up same place!
http://techdirt.com/
Where Mike's "new business model" (file hosts like Megaupload) is to grift on income streams that should go to content creators -- and then call the creators greedy!
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Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
I guess the RIAA should get to paying all those artists who created all that music and never got royalty payments, then, hmm?
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Re: Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
THEY SHOULD INDEED! If you'll take time to READ what I've written, if there's anyone here who wants to cut out greedy corporate types, it's ME. -- I'm for hanging them for crimes committed (after a fair and public trial). Top that, kibitzer.
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Re: Re: Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
On the other hand you'd rather innocent people get sued so your heroes at the RIAA can get paid.
Get bent.
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Except they'll never receive a "fair and public trial, sicne they're perceived as "too big to prosecute", boy.
So you make a "safe" statement against your corporate masters knowing that it'll never come to pass.
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This is Techdirt, where we all get to decide our own morality and things such as laws or norms are meaningless. Mike doesn't discuss morality. Wonder why?
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More immoral than extorting money from people, with a threat of a large, public, and most of all expensive trial if they fight back, whether they are actually guilty or not?
More immoral than treating people who download and share files worse than people who commit actual, physically harmful crimes?
More immoral than giving a particular industry special privileges, and putting into effect laws written and paid for by that industry, at the cost of everyone else?
Need I go on?
Now if you'd said 'almost no-one believes that copyright infringement, unless done for commercial gain, is immoral, or even cares about it', then you'd have had a decent argument.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
This is the real world, where we all get to decide our own morality. FTFY.
Everybody decides their own morality, that's how morals works. Only an idiot would suggest it's otherwise.
"...and things such as laws or norms are meaningless."
You suggest that as if laws and norms are always in agreement with each other. Laws change all the time because societal norms have changed and the law needs to catch up. Copyright is a perfect example. Infringement is illegal, but it is also a completely normal activity for a huge and growing percentage of the populace. Many do it with full knowledge it's illegal, many do it without even realising they're technically breaking the law.
"Mike doesn't discuss morality. Wonder why?"
Where exactly is the morality clause in copyright law?
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So you don't think there's any collective decision about what's moral and what's not, codified into, I don't know, laws?
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Wow. Really? So you think they are completely separate things, having nothing to do with each other whatsoever? Wow. Just wow. Amazing.
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Totally moral.
"Some examples of Jim Crow laws are the segregation of public schools, public places, and public transportation, and the segregation of restrooms, restaurants, and drinking fountains for whites and blacks. The U.S. military was also segregated."
Totally.
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Alcohol was both allowed and not allowed, is that moral?
Same with Marijuana, is there morality there?
In Florida, it's against the law to put a hippo on your roof. Where's the morality in that?
In Alaska, you cannot push a moose out of a helicopter, though how you'd get one in there is beyond me.
You can't cross the border into Minnesota with a chicken on your head.
You can't dance with a hat on in North Dakota.
In South Dakota, if there is a group of 3 Native Americans walking down the street at the same time, you can shoot them in self defense.
You can fire on a Native American from the back of a covered wagon in those same areas.
Now, tell me where the morality is in most of those (the moose one I can understand though.)
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Because it doesn't change the status quo one bit?
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Re: Re: Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
Have you seen the movies lately?
Every meme of the internet is going to the big screen.
The burrito guy on Battleship, that was from the internet, did those guy pay anything?
Do musicians pay for royalties for their cloth manufacturers?
Nope.
Do they pay royalties for the instruments they use?
Nope.
But somehow you want everybody to keep paying forever minus one day enduring immoral copyrights that strip everybody from the right to own what they bought, and threatens free speech and commerce.
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Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
Well thats a laugh considering that the creator never does get all the rewards as the majority of it all goes to the company that they signed up with.
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Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
Take a loopy tour of Techdirt.com! You always end up same place!
http://techdirt.com/
Where Mike sez: uploader + file host + links site + downloader = perfectly "legal" symbiotic piracy.
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Re: Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
The boy is talking to himself again.
Just as well, he's the only one who has any sympathy for him!
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Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
This has been cried and crowed since at least the 50's, when reel-to-reel tape recorders became affordable.
We heard it again in the 70's about cassette tapes: "home taping is killing the music industry."
We heard it again in 1976, with Bill Gate's famous "letter to pirates." He whined about "rampant piracy" then and the ruination it would bring.
Former MPAA head Jack Valenti very famously overreached when he proclaimed the death of movies via the new VCR, stating "I say to you that the VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone."
In 1998, the RIAA and Metallica proclaimed Napster and file sharing to be the absolute DOOM of all music.
In 2006, the MPAA again decried "piracy" as the doom of the movie industry, due to the "rampant" nature of file sharing on the internet.
It's been 60 years, nearly 50 since the cassette, nearly 40 since Bill Gate's screed, nearly 30 since Jack Valenti proclaimed the death of movies, and going on 20 years since Napster.
I ask you to answer this question or never complain about the subject again:
Where is the ruination? Please, enlighten us. It's been MORE than enough time, 6 decades. Surely, if ruination were to come due to people sharing movies/music, SOMETHING would have fallen apart by now and been laid waste.
I know you wont answer, because you didnt the last time I put this to you last week, and you dont exist to actually do anything useful with your life, or even back up ANY claim you ever make.
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Actually since at least the 70s. The 1870s, with the culprit being the player piano.
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Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
The basis of copyright is the promotion of science, so as to serve the public interest. It is best to initially vest copyrights in the authors that create the works in question, but the authors are not the creators of copyrights, they need not receive copyrights if it would not be in the public interest to grant them, and in some cases we have a mildly sketchy practice of designating some other party the author for vesting purposes than the person who has the skill to create and whose hand does the work. If this practice is okay, perhaps under certain circumstances, it would be best to vest the rights in a completely different party. (It would be unconstitutional but that and what is best for the public don't necessarily track perfectly). If it is not okay, feel free to denounce the practice of works made for hire. The point is that copyright doesn't really "stem from who creates it" (Crazy person capitalization removed).
And not all of the rewards go to the creator, nor the copyright holder, who is actually the party to whom rewards may be funneled. For example, first sale doesn't provide such rewards. Not do fair uses. Nor do a number of other exceptions to copyright, nor uses of works that lie outside of the realm of copyright altogether.
And it remains to be seen whether rampant piracy will ruin the whole system. It hasn't yet. Frankly, I'd like to see a proper experiment conducted in which we try it out for a few centuries to see how it compares. After all, there were plenty of works being created and published before copyright, and they didn't have the advantage of all the better technologies and larger audiences we have now. Just think how many more plays Shakespeare could've written with the aid of a rhyming dictionary and a word processor.
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Re: The principles remain in place DESPITE easier copying.
Than why are the copyright HOLDERS (who are rarely the creators) receiving the rewards, not the actual creators, like Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster or Jack Kirby, boy?
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You do realize that "exclusionary privileges" is an oxymoron, right? Privileges only allow someone the liberty to engage or not engage in a particular activity. Rights are what allow someone to exclude others from engaging in or not engaging in a particular activity. That's why the Constitution refers to "exclusive rights." A right permits the holder to exclude others, while a privilege does not.
Are you purposefully using the wrong term, or do you just not understand the difference? I'll assume it's the former because, well, you aren't an honest person.
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Copyright isn't a right you are granted. It's a right taken away from everyone else so that you can have exclusivity in copying and distribution. Everyone is free to copy and distribute what ever they want, until copyright comes in, and then suddenly their rights are removed.
Copyright isn't the granting of a right to a single individual/entity; it is the removal of rights from all but a single entity.
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On the contrary, I've studied this issue very closely.
Copyright is a privilege to engage in excluding others from copying.
That's an oxymoron. A privilege holder has no legally enforceable claim against others. Only rightholders do.
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Further, if you tried to stop me from making copies of and/or distributing copies of works in the public domain, then your conduct would not be immunized from liability. But if you have a copyright on the works I am copying/distributing, then that same conduct is immunized from liability. Your own definitions support that.
Copyright is a privilege, not a right. In order to even have copyrights, you must remove the rights of others to copy and distribute works. But with a copyright you are given "the legal freedom to do or not do a given act", that act in this case is to stop me from copying and distributing your copyrighted works. You can't stop me from doing it with someone else's copyrighted works. If I were selling a bunch of bootlegged DVDs that you didn't own a copyright onn, and you took them from me, you would be liable for theft. If the copyright holder did the same, I'm sure they would be immunized. Why? Because it's a privilege they get. The privilege to exclude.
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It sounds like you should share the definitions of "privilege" and "right" that you're using.
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That's what privilege means: Private Law.
It is a privilege for military officers to exclude enlisted men from certain venues, not a right. It is a privilege to drive on the road, excluding people who are unqualified to operate a vehicle.
Privilege is the correct term here, and you're an idiot.
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That's what privilege means: Private Law.
It is a privilege for military officers to exclude enlisted men from certain venues, not a right. It is a privilege to drive on the road, excluding people who are unqualified to operate a vehicle.
Privilege is the correct term here, and you're an idiot.
LOL! Huh? A privilege is not a right, so when you say "privilege is a right granted as a benefit," you're not making any sense. I'm using the terms in their technical, legal sense.
From Black's:
Right = "A legally enforceable claim that another will do or will not do a given act; a recognized and protected interest the violation of which is a wrong."
Privilege = "A privilege grants someone the legal freedom to do or not to do a given act. It immunizes conduct that, under ordinary circumstances, would subject the actor to liability."
A right gives its holder an enforceable claim against another, while a privilege merely immunizes its holder from a duty it would otherwise have.
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You also seem to be cherry-picking those definitions from Black's, although I don't have one to hand. That is certainly not the all-encompassing definition of right in Black's. Context matters in legal definitions. If you're going to quote Black's for the definitions, please quote the entire entry for the word.
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You can note immediately that the word "right" is given in definitions of privilege four times. The hovertext, quick definition of privilege is, "A right, authority or benefit that an individual is entitled to based on status, credibility or by the operation of the law."
To cherry-pick my own subsection:
You'll note that the common theme among the definitions here (which I have conveniently sourced for your reference), is that the execution of privilege requires an exclusion to others of the rights grated thereby.
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You can note immediately that the word "right" is given in definitions of privilege four times. The hovertext, quick definition of privilege is, "A right, authority or benefit that an individual is entitled to based on status, credibility or by the operation of the law."
To cherry-pick my own subsection:
An exceptional or extraordinary power or exemption. A right, power, franchise, or immunity held by a person or class, against or beyond the course of the law.
You'll note that the common theme among the definitions here (which I have conveniently sourced for your reference), is that the execution of privilege requires an exclusion to others of the rights grated thereby.
Using Hohfeldian jural relations, it's incorrect to define a right as a power, right, immunity, etc. since those are all distinct concepts.
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And using astrophysics relations, all elements except hydrogen and helium are metals. I don't understand why you're trying to force very specific jurisprudence definitions onto a blog post discussing a leaked document written to specifically deceive politicians, and authored by industry con-men.
You're not making any point which is relevant to the discussion. You're like an asshole pilot, trying to explain that actually, fluid dynamics governs both liquid and gaseous matter, to a man drowning in something which everyone else knows is a fluid.
A right is a universal, a privilege is restricted to a class.
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For someone so sure of himself, you sure do suck at actually debating beyond the level of a 12 year old girl.
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For someone so sure of himself, you sure do suck at actually debating beyond the level of a 12 year old girl.
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I'm using the military definition of those terms, by the way, where accuracy denotes truth and trust in a value and precision denotes the level of exactness in a value.
No one cares if you're precise if you're precisely wrong.
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And your inveighing against rhetoric, while simultaneously use selective and narrow definitions for the terms is laughable.
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You also seem to be cherry-picking those definitions from Black's, although I don't have one to hand. That is certainly not the all-encompassing definition of right in Black's. Context matters in legal definitions. If you're going to quote Black's for the definitions, please quote the entire entry for the word.
I'm using the terms in the Hohfeldian sense.
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Let's see...
From this legal dictionary: http://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/privilege.html
"privilege n: [Latin privilegium law affecting a specific person, special right, from privus private + leg- lex law]
1 : a right, license, or exemption from duty or liability granted as a special benefit, advantage, or favor"
From this legal dictionary:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/privilege
"priv·i·lege (prv-lj, prvlj) n.:
1.
a. A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. See Synonyms at right.
b. Such an advantage, immunity, or right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others.
2. The principle of granting and maintaining a special right or immunity: a society based on privilege."
From yet another legal dictionary:
http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/privilege.html same basic thing.
Moving beyond legal dictionaries.
We've got Merriam Websters:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privilege
"priv·i·lege noun \ˈpriv-lij, ˈpri-və-\
Definition of PRIVILEGE
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : prerogative; especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office"
Dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege
priv·i·lege
[priv-uh -lij, priv-lij] Show IPA noun, verb, priv·i·leged, priv·i·leg·ing.
noun
1.
a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.
2.
a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit.
3.
a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions.
4.
the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.
5.
any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.
And more:
Synonyms
1. Privilege, prerogative refer to a special advantage or right possessed by an individual or group. A privilege is a right or advantage gained by birth, social position, effort, or concession. It can have either legal or personal sanction: the privilege of paying half fare; the privilege of calling whenever one wishes.
Collins English Dictionary:
privilege (ˈprɪvɪlɪdʒ)
— n
1. a benefit, immunity, etc, granted under certain conditions
2. the advantages and immunities enjoyed by a small usually powerful group or class, esp to the disadvantage of others: one of the obstacles to social harmony is privilege
3. any of the fundamental rights guaranteed to the citizens of a country by its constitution
Apparently the answer to all those dictionaries is "LOL! Huh? You're not making any sense!
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Perhaps you're the one not making any sense. It's things like this that show why you're not worth the brain cells to debate you. Even when you're proven to be completely wrong (and an obnoxious prick in the process), you pretend your right.
That's called being insufferable. If you want, I can define that word for you too.
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From the definition of "monopoly":
From The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 10:
From West's Encyclopedia of American Law (the source for TheFreeDictionary's legal dictionary):
Plus, all the early proto-copyright laws (to e.g. John Usher, William Billings, and Andrew Law) were all described as "printing privileges."
Sounds pretty accurate to me.
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The Constitution clearly reflects the Framers' belief that granting authors exclusive rights is the best way to promote the progress of science. That's why the Framers explicitly provided the means. It doesn't just say "promote the progress" in any way Congress sees fit. It tells Congress the exact means of doing so. This is pretty basic. It amazes me that you deny it. (Actually, it doesn't amaze me at all. What would amaze me is if you admitted it.)
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The founders weren't n00bs.
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And even assuming they WERE right about copyright at the time(debatable), the copyright of today is MUCH different. If you want to go back to the original ideas, let's start by rolling back the copyright term to 14 years, plus a 14 year extension if refiled. And then fine every company who sued over stuff that would have been in the public domain otherwise for violating the original idea. Oh wait, you don't like that aspect of the original intent, so you'll just ignore that bit, won't you?
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Article I, Section 8 has never been amended. None of the enumerated powers have ever been changed.
And even assuming they WERE right about copyright at the time(debatable), the copyright of today is MUCH different. If you want to go back to the original ideas, let's start by rolling back the copyright term to 14 years, plus a 14 year extension if refiled. And then fine every company who sued over stuff that would have been in the public domain otherwise for violating the original idea. Oh wait, you don't like that aspect of the original intent, so you'll just ignore that bit, won't you?
If things are so different now than they were then, why would you think it makes sense to going back to doing things as we did things then? I'm not sure I get your last point. What about the "original intent" do I ignore? The intent was to empower Congress to give authors exclusive rights. That hasn't changed.
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Neither had any other part, until it was. Not exactly a sound argument there.
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The fact that Article I has never been changed in 220+ years is a valid response to the argument that "we have amended the constitution so many times means that they got a hell of a lot wrong." There is no evidence that we got Article I wrong.
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What they got wrong is including it at all. But, since it had to be included, they made the further error of not weakening it enough.
Copyright law as it exists today is, essentially, exactly what the founders were afraid would happen.
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Yes, the purpose of copyright is to promote the progress, and the means identified for doing so are the grants of exclusive rights.
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How has copyright promoted progress by taking down material and speech?
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You think you can point at some outliers in a scenario and convince people they're the norm? You're a fucking idiot. But I realize that's perfectly normal amongst Techdirt members.
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His question stands.
Copyright, a privilege, as intended in Article 1, is rapidly creating conflict in direct confrontation to enumerated rights.
And I see that cunts can be idiots too. Pussy.
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That is the most succinct description of the basic problem I have ever read. Bravo.
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And please, don't repeat the tired argument of 'copyright exists, stuff gets created, therefor copyright is responsible', as that makes just as much sense(namely none) if you switch in anything else with 'copyright', making the argument useless. Might as well say 'people have beards, stuff gets created, therefor beards are responsible'...
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Times change, and the framers of the Constitution knew that, which is why they provided ways for it to be ammended. There's quite a few things that mostly everyone now agrees were included in the Constitution that were incorrect or missing entirely.
You're quite focused on the means the framers supplied. But the means is useless if it is not achieving the purpose for which it was stated. If the means (temporary monopoly privilege) is hindering the purpose (creation of works) then I'm quite confident that if the framers were still around, they'd be perfectly OK with scrapping those monopolies.
Actually, there's another argument here. Some of the framers suspected that granting monopoly privileges over works of the mind was problematic. Because of that, they linked the power they were granting to Congress to the purpose it was being granted for - and by limiting Congress, it was their intention to prevent exactly what we see with today's overreaching copyright laws.
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I agree that if the means identified are not fulfilling the given purpose, then the means should not be employed. Of course, the means are working remarkably well, so that's not really an issue. The progress is promoted wonderfully under copyright. The Framers nailed it. The creation of works is not hindered. There's so many new works being created now and culture is blossoming more than ever. The "sky is rising," haven't you heard?
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Further, copyright want a big issue because it was small, only covering a few books and maps while not covering everything under the sun. Also, the big issue of the day was slavery.
So how does your blanket support for what the Framers were doing square away with the fact that very few people thought that a lot of things in the 1700s needed copyright?
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You can't just hand wave this away. Copyright is being used to suppress speech. Copyright is being used to hinder the creation of new work. Copyright is being used to stop new services and technologies, or to tax or slow them to uselessness.
Yes, new works are being created - in spite of copyright, not because of it. Every day we see more examples of it hindering. Every day we see more examples of overreach or copyfraud. They are no longer outliers.
This is a really simple concept. If copyright is hindering more than it is helping, it is not "promoting the progress" and needs to be fixed or scrapped entirely.
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Oh, well I'm glad you're here to clear that up for us.
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As any fan fiction writer will tell you. Yeah, right.
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No, they put it in there because the states were fucking it up under the previous national government. Same reason why Congress gets to regulate commerce, establish uniform bankruptcy laws, establish standard national weights and measures, etc. If the states had done a good job with copyright, it would've been left to them. Whether the framers actually thought it was a good idea or not was irrelevant; Congress would get to decide that. And presumably the framers from Delaware disagreed; their state had no copyright laws. We don't know about Rhode Island, as they didn't send anyone. And some of the delegates didn't sign it, probably for other reasons, but who knows.
Next you'll probably say that the First Amendment is first because it was most important.
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The benefit of uniformity explains why there's a national copyright law. But that doesn't explain why the means provided are the grant of exclusive rights.
Next you'll probably say that the First Amendment is first because it was most important.
I think all the Amendments are important, but you're right, I think the First Amendment is probably the most important. I don't know why it's listed first. Never thought about it.
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Habit, probably. The only copyright laws in the world prior to that we're those of 12 states and England, and the states' largely followed the English example. And that was the mechanism that they used. And it's a clever system, don't get me wrong, but you might have to go back to the old Venetian patent law to find serious thought on the whole affair prior to the drafting of the Constitution.
I think all the Amendments are important, but you're right, I think the First Amendment is probably the most important. I don't know why it's listed first. Never thought about it.
Random chance and politics. The drafts of the Bill of Rights had things in various orders, including breaking what we know of as the First Amendment into two separate ones. Eventually the draft submitted to the states had twelve proposed amendments. Ten of them, numbers 3 through 12, were ratified. So it would've been third if they all and gotten enough votes. Eventually the second one got ratified as the 27th Amendment. The original first, dealing with apportionment, likely never will be ratified.
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But while that does have the first instance of authorial copyright, the idea of granting the right to the person responsible probably came, ultimately, from the Venetian Patent Law of 1474. (Although like a lot of early patent laws it also granted protections to people who introduced new technologies from elsewhere)
Anne was written in about a month, plus some changes as it moved through Parliament, and while the core idea of copyright that it presents is good, there are issues with the implementation. So while it did change who the right was vested in, I'm not confident that it evidences some great genius so much as it does the general dislike of the publishers at the time.
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What is incomprehensible is that you'd expect anyone to believe your absurd FUD. I know you guys are desperate, but wow!
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But won't somebody think of the children! Copyright is killing our children!
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I'd venture that copyright is, in fact, harming our children, their futures and as such our potential as a race.
If we truly want progress we should limit the present reach and direction of copyrights in a meaningful and powerful way.
A bunch of folks gathering up all the copyrights they can combined with all they've acquired along the way in order to squeeze every last penny out of them for an eternity - that's what copyright maximalism represents, that's what it has become, that is what it strives for - self engorgement and self preservation.
Everyone here save the fringe duly and truly respects and appreciates an artist, however, a strong-armed, overly bearing "representative" body is something that has all but run its course and I will strike down upon thee with ... wait.. sorry, something about cats.
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I sincerely doubt that the majority of Congress can spell "research", much less do any.
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Really Masnick? Using the music industry to debunk the motion picture industry. I guess you see a lot of opportunities for film crews to go on tour and sell t-shirts that are underexploited.
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I don't see road show concert crews being paid after the tour is over, boy.
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Really Dodds? Using the grocery industry to bolster the "copyright" industry. I guess you see a lot of opportunities for checkout operators to profit from movie making.
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Thanks for clarifying. It is no wonder they're so misunderstood. The MPAA that is, not woodchucks and not trees though it does seem the MPAA are good upchuckers. Their vomit is vile.
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Must Create...
This is the part that I think needs to be stressed to death. Most people who create do so because they have to; getting paid for it is a great perc when you can get it.
The idea of copyright as incentive to create is bullshit, and the people who say that are clearly not persons who feel the compulsion that creators do.
I'm so thrilled to have lived long enough that high quality video, animation, and recording studios can be had by us commoners with little overhead, and generate pro product. (When I started, a 2-oscillator 5-voice analog synth was $5k, in 70s bucks. Yikes!)
The future rocks! (MPAA, not so much.)
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Well, here we go again...
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Buying disc at store: $20.00
Cost of rental + blank disc: $3.00
Aside from economics, this is a hobby of mine.
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Whatever. I'm done for the day. Bedways is rightways now.
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I was unaware there was ongoing discussion of this nature. As far as I can tell, the MPAA makes no effort to avail itself to anyone who wants to debate its positions, in any way, ever. Perhaps there was a typo, and they meant to say ungoing discussion.
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