Rather Than Go After Fan For Making Podcast Better, Kevin Smith Asks Him To Help Out
from the that's-how-it's-done dept
These days, we hear way too many stories of content creators absolutely flipping out about fans enhancing their work in some way. Most recently, we were quite disappointed to see the "Real Calvin and Hobbes" -- a fan site that superimposed the comic strip images on real photographs that matched the original scenes -- get shut down due to aggressive lawyering. So, we're always happy to see artists, who really seem to "get it," recognize that when fans build on the things you've done, it's because they're fans and want to do more with the experience, and to share it with others. That's why it was quite interesting, in listening to the latest episode of the always awesome Hollywood Babble-On podcast with Ralph Garman and Kevin Smith, that they had a revealing discussion after a fan emailed in about a plan to release "enhanced" versions of the podcasts on YouTube.If you're not a fan of the podcast, it involves the two hosts, in front of a live audience, discussing show business, hilariously. One part of the show is that it includes images and videos that they comment on. Many of these are from the week's news, but there are other amusing segments, such as "shit that should not be" in which they highlight a clip from a film each week where someone screwed up and allowed something into the film that shouldn't have been there (e.g., you can see the camera crew, or someone in the background is doing something stupid). When listening to the podcast, it can sometimes be a bit strange, since you can't see the images and videos that they use. To deal with that, they also put up all the images and videos on the site when the podcast goes live. I'll usually try to check it out sometime the following week.
So, in this latest episode, a fan emailed to say that he was going to put together "enhanced" versions of the podcast on YouTube, in which he'd insert the images and videos at the appropriate points so that if you listened to it via YouTube, you could take a look when the visual stuff comes up. Not that useful if you're listening while driving or something but if you're just, say, listening at your desk, it might make for a nice alternative. It's somewhat amusing to hear the reactions of Garman and Smith as they walk through this, and I actually think that Smith's reaction is the kind of thought process in action that many creative folks go through when they realize that people are doing something with their stuff: the first thought is -- instinctually -- to be concerned about someone else doing something with their stuff, but then the quick realization that, wait, this is a good thing, and if it's a good thing, maybe they should team up. So, within a few seconds, it goes from Smith somewhat jokingly suggesting that this is "stealing" to him saying that he now wants to give the guy money each week to do the same thing:
Garman: Doug did a very cool thing. He says I'm going to post uncut episodes of Hollywood Babble-On on YouTube. But I'm going to stick whatever pictures and videos are included in the show throughout the course of it.... What he's done is he's run the audio underneath and then laid all the stuff on top of it so you can watch it on YouTube in one sitting.And... boom, this week's episode (the one where they discuss this very idea) comes complete with an enhanced YouTube version that is posted on Smith's own Seesmod YouTube channel. If you want to hear the actual discussion transcribed above, it's at about 28:12 in the video below:
Smith: It would be better if he did it on our channel, rather than stealing our content and putting it on his channel. And just because he's putting our fucking pictures under it as well, that seems like theft to me, no? Especially since he's putting it on his YouTube channel, if you get enough hits and stuff, they'll give you some fucking money and shit. I mean, I'm not one of those cats who's like 'don't bootleg' because I used to get bootlegs back in the day... but I'm still alive, bitch. This is all I got is this fucking Babble-On show. Don't take this away from me and Ralph.
Garman: Doug, you'll be hearing from our lawyers, was what I meant to say.
Smith: Yeah, just do it for our channel. Do it for our channel and will throw him a couple bucks every week. I love that shit, man. Just do it for us.
Garman: Alright.
Smith: I'll give him shit in advance. I'll give him the podcast in advance so that by the time the podcast drops, the YouTube episode can drop as well.... There's no point in fighting it. I mean, you can't fight the creative urge. This dude loves our art so much...
Garman: Well, he likes to watch it on his Xbox which has a YouTube app, so he can sit there...
Smith: Bingo. He's loves our shit. It makes him want to make his own shit. And you don't want to stifle that and be like "fucking don't do that or we'll sue you." What you want to do is fucking recruit him and be like "help us do it" and fucking work together and shit....
To many of us, of course, this kind of thing makes quite a lot of sense. If your fans are doing awesome stuff with your stuff, see if there are ways to work together to make it better for everyone. And, yet, it still seems like too many people instead stick with the instinctual reaction of "that's against the law!" and immediately call the lawyers. How much more interesting a world would it be if more people looked for the upside when fans embrace the artwork they love?
Update: Kevin Smith stopped by to provide some more detail, including explaining that, coincidentally, people working with him were already working on something like this, which is why they put up this clip, and it's not actually by the guy who had emailed him, but he's still reaching out. Um, and he also says that Techdirt is mentioned in Clerks III.
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Filed Under: copyright, enhanced podcast, hollywood babbleon, kevin smith, ralph garmin, working together, youtube
Reader Comments
The First Word
“FULL DISCLOSURE!
Hi - it's Kevin Smith. That Kevin Smith - the one mentioned above.The clip that went up on our YouTube channel was not made by the dude who emailed us on this week's episode of Babble. Turns out Jordan Monsanto (who runs SModCo for us; also Mrs. Mewes) had been working with our IT maven (and fellow podcaster) Will Wilkins on this and YouTube version of our FAT MAN ON BATMAN podcast. It was a happy coincidence that the first Babble clip ran this week.
But the good news is we're all lazy fat-asses at SModCo, and we'd never bother doing something for ourselves we can pay someone else to do for us. So we still reached out to the dude who wrote the email, offering him the gig.
Thanks for the continued shout-outs. Only person sweeter to me than you guys is my sainted Mother. As a thanks, I wrote TechDirt into CLERKS III. It's the joke both Jeff (Randal) Anderson and Trevor (Elias) Fehrman have highlighted as one of their favorites in the script.
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Anomaly Alert!
Now, if only Mike would take the cue and PAY minions, he might get some worthwhile pieces! Heck, even I'd write here -- provocatively, not my usual dull -- if paid. But I think paying people for doing work goes against Mike's "principles".
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Re: Anomaly Alert! - fuck you
Fuck you. No one wants to hear any of your shit, and no one for fucking sure want to see you paid for the shilltroll bullshit "up with copyright, down with the users!" MCP garbage you spew every day here.
Signed,
Everyone who's ever had to read your "first post! pay attention to me, I'm a failed creator who chooses to spend his time attacking his betters instead of doing anything constructive with my life!" bile.
PS - If we pay you, will you shut the fuck up and never post again? I think you'll get more takers for that.
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Re: Re: Anomaly Alert! - fuck you
Now THAT is a Reason to Buy.
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Re: Anomaly Alert!
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Re: Re: Anomaly Alert!
Just report the post. Do not reply. Do this long enough and they will go away.
Either that, or for God's sake, make comment threads collapsible so I can easily ignore all the fools who fell for troll bait.
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Re: Anomaly Alert!
and I am curious as well how much to shut you up?
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Re: Anomaly Alert!
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Re: Re: Anomaly Alert!
Re: Anomaly Alert!
The real anomaly is that you think you can write provocatively."
Well, a) your usage of "anomaly" is simply daffy; here I was referring to a fan actually getting paid for help, and my wry wit noting frequent use of "anomaly" escaped you, and b) obviously YOU were provoked to respond, reliable as ankle-biter yapping its head off at a cat, and just as UN-self-aware that its buttons were pushed.
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Re: Anomaly Alert!
"Now, if only Mike would take the cue and PAY minions"
You mean, just like both Mike and some of his writers confirmed that he did, despite the lies spewed out by your idiot friends? Why does every argument of your have to be based on complete fiction?
"But I think"
No you don't.
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Re: Re: Anomaly Alert!
You mean, just like both Mike and some of his writers confirmed that he did, despite the lies spewed out by your idiot friends? Why does every argument of your have to be based on complete fiction?
That was my belief right up to this morning, based on what Mike wrote some time back, DESPITE not believing that minions would continue to write for free. I've questioned it numerous times and never saw any contradiction. -- So thanks for the news!
Because then shows that Mike's notions on user-generated content are wrong, you actually have to PAY for values used in business. It's a key point that undermines much of his hoopla on web funding -- or as I believe is his hoopla, since he doesn't write much on it these days, let alone have it neatly listed in bullet points for ready reference. -- So answer to your last question is: because Mike doesn't actually state much clearly, readers are just left to imagine that he agrees with them.
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Re: Re: Re: Anomaly Alert!
Perhaps if you bothered to read the articles (which you have previous admitting to not doing) and participated in actual conversation rather than launching impotent attacks, you'd understand that this was not the case. It's been mentioned before, but there was a major thread conversation where it should have been put to rest - for those who bother to read the site before they try criticising, of course.
"Because then shows that Mike's notions on user-generated content are wrong"
How so? Let me guess, you're unable to grasp a basic point yet again, and so have to attack a fiction? (hint: there's a major difference between user generated content - the comments here - and the articles, written by paid employees). There's no contradiction between believing that people should be paid for works for hire and believing that free user generated content can also be monetised.
"So answer to your last question is: because Mike doesn't actually state much clearly"
Everything he writes is perfectly clear to me. I may not always agree, but it's perfectly clear. It doesn't match the fever dream fantasy world you operate from, but that's not Mike's problem.
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Not sure how much is tongue in cheek, my net speed makes video problematic, but you can see how the thoughts happen... and what happens if you stop short of caring more about keeping iron fisted control than offering the best possible thing.
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Kudos to this two doing podcasts who actually see value in fan work. What makes your show better can't be bad.
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It why you guys are hard to follow:
Honestly, where do you get that? The guy contacted Kevin Smith head, ASKED PERMISSION, and now they are working together. There is a huge difference between asking permission and begging forgiveness. Kevin is a cool guy who is more than willing to try things, so asking is the way to go.
This story should be pinned for all Techdirt people to read - it's about getting onside before your end up offside. Nobody is calling the lawyers on things that they have approved.
(oh and thanks for continuing to censor my posts... it continued to prove that Techdirt is "do as I say, not do as I do" - low class, even for you guys).
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Re: It why you guys are hard to follow:
Second, if you don't want your comments hidden, might want to cut down on the personal attacks, like say, your last sentence in that post.
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Re: Re: It why you guys are hard to follow:
That's not going to happen. It's too useful of a technique:
"TD is nothing but a pirate-advocating, scum-sucking, google-financed home to a bunch of childish, artist-hating thieves! . Mike sucks!"
Then the comment gets hidden because it's trollish and abusive, the troll claims that it was hidden because everyone wants to suppress the valid point.
They need the comment to be hidden so they can complain about being "censored".
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Re: Re: Re: It why you guys are hard to follow:
"TD is nothing but a pirate-advocating, scum-sucking, google-financed home to a bunch of childish, artist-hating thieves! . [Insert valid point here] Mike sucks!"
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Re: Re: Re: It why you guys are hard to follow:
What is happening is when I post anything, it gets "HELD FOR MODERATION". Every post. 100% of the time. I don't get to post and have it reported into oblivion, my post never makes it - or if it does (in this case) it's added 24 to 48 hours later, making it essentially meaningless in the flow of dicussion.
It isn't an issue of reporting, it's an issue of never allowing it on the website to start with.
I would also say based on this ""TD is nothing but a pirate-advocating, scum-sucking, google-financed home to a bunch of childish, artist-hating thieves! . Mike sucks!"" you (and probably the Techdirt staff) are confusing me with the guy posting absolutely anonymously and slagging Techdirt. If I am going to call Mike a liar (or using truthiness to make his points) I will do it directly.
So Techdirt is using censorship (not reporting by users, but actual censorship) to keep most of my messages off the site. You never get to vote on them, because you never get to see them. That is censorship plain and simple. I wonder if I should get a lawyer?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It why you guys are hard to follow:
Yes, I should have been more clear. I was really talking generally about the pure and consistent trolls, which I don't really think you are. My apologies.
That said, your comments do sometimes stray from rational debate and slip into the ad-hom and personal attack territory. Given the problem TD has with this sort of thing, I think lots of people, including myself, have a heightened sensitivity to that.
Although I'm skeptical of the notion that you are being intentionally censored -- not because I doubt your word, but because the symptoms don't really add up to me -- I'm going to grant this is happening for the sake of argument.
Sure, if you want to waste money. You are well aware that you (and I or anyone else who isn't Mike) have no legal right to post comments here. There is no constitutional issue. To compare being censored here with governmental censorship is disingenuous.
I don't remember TD making a big issue out of private entities doing this sort of thing. Where TD makes a big issue is when the government does it or forces others to do it. I don't see any serious hypocrisy here.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It why you guys are hard to follow:
Why would you get a lawyer? Techdirt isnt the government, you have no 1st amendment rights here. You can't sue someone for not allowing you to speak (or write) on their private property. If you walk into a restaurant and start screaming about how awful the place is, the food sucks, etc and calling the management and patrons names, would you not expect to get kicked out? You have no speech rights in such a situation, so why does it apply here? Is it because the answer to every such scenario to you and your luddite friends is its "on the internet?"
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Re: It why you guys are hard to follow:
Have you tried making points without name calling, and perhaps get it through your thick skull that there's individuals here with individual opinions, especially commenters (so attacks on "Techdirt" may be attacking people for holding opinions they don't hold)? In other words, stop being an obnoxious ass, and maybe you'll find the actual things being said here aren't what you're so offended by.
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Re:
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Does anyone else like the way 'anomalies' sounds as they say it or am I an anomalous nerd?
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When it doesn't bring in extra money he won't want to give the guy money. The idea is still that someone might use something of mine and make money and dammit that would represent a loss to me in some magic way, albeit with a rational rather than irrational follow up predicated on the false premise.
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Re:
So what if it is set up in a way that helps monetise Smith? If more artists/organisations made use of fans and customers like this, they would do so much better.
You might as well argue that FPS game makers 'profit' off people who generate maps for free that encourage people to buy their games. Added value comes in many flavours - some people want money, some recognition, and some both. And I'm sure there's other things too, like 'earning' experience.
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kevin smith
THIS is what an artist should do help not hinder....and the way he went about it is just too cool.
IT might even get him spared the coming pitchforks .....
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FULL DISCLOSURE!
The clip that went up on our YouTube channel was not made by the dude who emailed us on this week's episode of Babble. Turns out Jordan Monsanto (who runs SModCo for us; also Mrs. Mewes) had been working with our IT maven (and fellow podcaster) Will Wilkins on this and YouTube version of our FAT MAN ON BATMAN podcast. It was a happy coincidence that the first Babble clip ran this week.
But the good news is we're all lazy fat-asses at SModCo, and we'd never bother doing something for ourselves we can pay someone else to do for us. So we still reached out to the dude who wrote the email, offering him the gig.
Thanks for the continued shout-outs. Only person sweeter to me than you guys is my sainted Mother. As a thanks, I wrote TechDirt into CLERKS III. It's the joke both Jeff (Randal) Anderson and Trevor (Elias) Fehrman have highlighted as one of their favorites in the script.
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Re: FULL DISCLOSURE!
Hey Kev, thanks for stopping by!
The clip that went up on our YouTube channel was not made by the dude who emailed us on this week's episode of Babble. Turns out Jordan Monsanto (who runs SModCo for us; also Mrs. Mewes) had been working with our IT maven (and fellow podcaster) Will Wilkins on this and YouTube version of our FAT MAN ON BATMAN podcast. It was a happy coincidence that the first Babble clip ran this week.
Aha! Updated the story, thanks for the clarification.
But the good news is we're all lazy fat-asses at SModCo, and we'd never bother doing something for ourselves we can pay someone else to do for us. So we still reached out to the dude who wrote the email, offering him the gig.
Very cool.
Thanks for the continued shout-outs. Only person sweeter to me than you guys is my sainted Mother. As a thanks, I wrote TechDirt into CLERKS III. It's the joke both Jeff (Randal) Anderson and Trevor (Elias) Fehrman have highlighted as one of their favorites in the script.
Now that's just all kinds of awesome. Now I have a year or so to keep my fingers crossed that we don't end up on the cutting room floor. :)
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Re: FULL DISCLOSURE!
That's fucking sweet, Mr. Smith! FYI, my last name is spelled Geigner, just so you get it right in the credits :)
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It's not Garmin…
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Re: It's not Garmin…
Oops. Fixed.
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Re:
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