Internet Companies Argue A 1st Amendment Right To Correct False Reports On NSA Spying, Despite Gag Orders
from the fighting-the-fight dept
A week and a half ago, we noted that the intelligence community and the big internet companies (Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook) had failed to come to an agreement that allowed the tech companies to publish the details on how many requests FISA court orders they get and how many of their users this impacts. Given that, the various companies made it clear that this fight would continue in court. Today, they filed very similar briefs, which you can see below, claiming a few key things:- The various public reports from The Guardian, The Washington Post (and others, including Gawker) are flat out wrong concerning the nature of these companies' involvement with the NSA.
- Because of the gag order on FISC orders under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, the tech companies are barred from correcting the record, which is tremendously harmful to them and their business prospects.
- They have a First Amendment right to give out information on how many such requests they receive, and how many users those requests have impacted.
- Doing so would have no harmful impact on national security.
Google further requests that the Court hold oral argument on this amended motion and that the argument be open to the public.. A public argument would be consistent with this Court's rules, which state that "a hearing in a non-adversarial matter must be ex-parte and conducted within the Court's secure facility," suggesting, by negative implication, that a hearing in an adversarial matter shall be open..... It is also required by the First Amendment, which generally protects a right of public access to judicial proceedings.I imagine we'll be hearing about this case for quite some time....
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Filed Under: 1st amendment, 702, first amendment, fisa amendments act, gag orders, nsa, nsa surveillance
Companies: facebook, google, microsoft, yahoo
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Not that I disagree, but I am a bit curious about what more they could have done any earlier than this?
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Re: Re: Re: Ignored the gag and then had their day in court
The FISA court will probably say "we can't decide if the 1st Amendment protects you until somebody ignores the gag and it comes to trial".
So, then, having exhausted every available avenue short of that, Google and Yahoo will ignore the gag and publish the numbers.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignored the gag and then had their day in court
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignored the gag and then had their day in court
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Uh, being suicidal doesn't help. People have to be real here. If a company flat out ignored the gag order they'd lose in court big time.
And Yahoo did fight back and lost.
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I think it's past time they went on the offensive by ignoring some gag orders where there are no reasonable motivations (ie: info on known activists).
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I think it's past time they went on the offensive by ignoring some gag orders where there are no reasonable motivations (ie: info on known activists).
Have you heard the story of Joe Nacchio and Qwest and what happened when they tried to push back?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101202485.html
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We can but hope.
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Again, as posted above, look at what happened to Joe Nacchio and Qwest for trying to fight back.
There are battles to pick, but willy nilly ignoring the feds? That's suicidal.
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The NSA may have done irreputable harm to the reputations of American corporations like Apple, Microsoft, Google, Verizon, Intel...
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When you wake up in bed with the Devil you have two choices, stay in bed or get out. They stayed until someone opened up the window. Suddenly they jump out screaming AFTER everyone sees.
No fucking sympathy. Sorry.
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No fucking sympathy. Sorry.
Look simplifying what's happening to the point you're discussing just seems naive. There *are* legitimate government requests for information. You pretend that there can be no such requests.
And, no they didn't jump out screaming after everyone sees. It's known that Yahoo fought Section 215 orders. It's known that Twitter fought 2703(d) orders. It's known that Google fought NSLs. There's tremendous evidence that those companies clearly fought back when they believed the orders were out of line.
Claiming that they should have fought every single order is just stupid. It's not even remotely realistic. If they had they would have spent a shit ton of money in court and lost badly every single time. What sort of strategy is that?
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Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
It's clearly self-serving publicity and we've NO guarantee they'll do it, because we can't audit them for compliance.
But Mike passes by this shocking assertion without even faint demur.
Corporations are manifestly NOT persons: they're an invention of lawyers for the purpose of allowing specific "natural persons" to gain money in public markets yet escape personal liability under common law. It's sheer fact that these legal fictions have no physical body so no matter what a corporation does, even if outright murder, it can't suffer any punishment other than money fine. "Limited Liability Corporation" states exactly that.
The "natural persons" who wish to form a corporation must FIRST ask permission from the public and so the resulting fictional entity has only granted privileges. They must promise to serve the public interest, and so those privileges exist only during good behavior.
Only the pernicious power of money that over decades paid for statutes causes lawyers to regard corporations similarly to persons. But lawyers will argue anything for a fee; they're as close as "natural persons" can get to being soulless heartless profit machines just like corporations.
Now, if that doesn't convince you and still want to argue, YOU must make a case that corporations do have rights. You're the one proposing a positive: I'm not required to further prove so obvious a negative. -- To save time, any and all court cases that you wish to cite, I'll wave aside on these grounds: courts are often utterly wrong, for instance once held outright slavery to be lawful, besides that they are public servants holding Offices whose SOLE authority stems from that We The People authorize them to act within prescribed bounds. Also, corporations have practically unlimited money with which to influence not only judges but the medieval guild that controls all lawyers. But when such government becomes destructive of OUR ends, we can dissolve those fictions too. So on idealistic and practical grounds I require you to set aside court decisions and argue from first principles and common law. -- AND YOU CAN'T! There's NO way that legal fictions have rights.
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Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
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Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
I agree with you about the legal fiction, but it's a legal fiction that we have to treat as fact because SCOTUS treats it as fact.
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Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
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You don't know what the hell you're talking about. The corporation doesn't get limited liability, the owners *behind* it do. The corporation *can* suffer punishments other than a monetary fine, including but not limited to injunctions, dissolution, etc. And it wasn't an invention of "lawyers". It was an invention of ordinary businessmen (even the first "corporate law" was passed by a board of trade, not lawyers). You obviously learned just enough off that side of cereal to pepper your insanity with bits of jargon, but don't understand the words at all.
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Re: Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
Apparently you are not a criminal if you steal the shareholders money within the rules of the casino game.
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Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
No matter how benevolent a business might seem, they are there to make money first and foremost, we must always think that their decisions benefit them or protect them somehow.
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Re: Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
Plus, when he reveals his actual convictions, half the viewers agree because after all, it's a familiar viewpoint with a lot to be said for it.
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Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
Are you really arguing that we should just ignore the ruling of the highest court in our land because was made by people with higher incomes than you?
Now I agree with you that Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission was unfortunate, but I think I'll wait until that gets overturned at some point in the future, instead of promoting anarchy, thank you very much.
Kind of a weird coming from someone like you, Blue, who argues the moralistic side of copyright, since copyright requires government enforced laws to exist.
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Re: Yeah, to the skeptical, this is pro-corporatist crap.
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In their defense
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The part Mike quotes makes little sense:
A public argument would be consistent with this Court's rules, which state that "a hearing in a non-adversarial matter must be ex-parte and conducted within the Court's secure facility," suggesting, by negative implication, that a hearing in an adversarial matter shall be open.
Just because a nonadversarial matter must be ex parte, that tells us absolutely nothing about whether an adversarial matter must be open. There is no logical "negative implication" there.
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Sure, Google has First Amendment rights. I don't think that's the issue though. The issue is the scope of those rights.
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Google is arguing that their speech can't be restricted at all, not that there hasn't been enough procedural protection. Their claim is about substance, not process.
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Just put up a notice on the home pages...
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The NSA is playing along. Eventually this info will be allowed to be released to keep the attention of the really important stuff until such time as they move onto something else.
We are currently involved take over of this country and are now part of a covert police state that is getting worse.
Everyone is being led around by true but less than essential information to keep people in the dark as to how far we are along with the plans to move over to a world currency dominated by people in power. The sooner you realize this the better for everyone.
Google storm clouds gathering online.
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Profit vs.Doing what is right.
That being said, I am very grateful that it is not in the corporations best financial interest to co-operate with the government in these cases. If it was, we might not even hear much about this issue.
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Numbers reporting
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