Former NSA Boss Hayden Says Snowden Likely To Become An Alcoholic Because He's 'Troubled' And 'Morally Arrogant'

from the funny-you-should-say-that dept

Wed, Sep 18th 2013 5:33am — Mike Masnick

The Washington Post's Andrea Peterson has some more incredible quotes from former NSA and CIA boss Michael Hayden, who seems to have a way of saying exactly the wrong thing if he's trying to reassure those who are worried about excessive government surveillance. First up, he continues to attack anyone who feels otherwise. The same guy who insisted that people who were concerned about NSA surveillance were shut-ins who couldn't get laid has apparently decided that he can determine Ed Snowden's mental makeup from afar, despite never having spoken to the guy. He can also predict his future:

Hayden predicted a bleak future for Snowden. Describing the former NSA contractor as a "defector," Hayden also called him "a troubled young man -- morally arrogant to a tremendous degree -- but a troubled young man."

Hayden further compared Snowden's prospects to those of defectors during the Cold War, saying, "I suspect he will end up like most of the rest of the defectors who went to the old Soviet Union: Isolated, bored, lonely, depressed -- and most of them ended up alcoholics."

Of course, Snowden didn't defect. He was more or less forced into Russia by the US pulling his passport. And we should look at who's throwing around claims of being "morally arrogant" here.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the talk, Hayden insisted that the intelligence community wanted to play within "the box" explaining what's legal, and said: "you're going to have to decide where the box is that you want your security services to work in." Of course, when Peterson questioned him on how the public could (a) understand where the box is today in order to have that debate and (b) suggest ways to move the box, Hayden didn't seem that interested:

When I asked how the public could tell security agencies where "the box" should be if they don't have the details of where it is now, Hayden responded, "In a perfect world I would brief the House and Senate intelligence committees and be done with it" because the more scrutiny surveillance programs receive the harder he believes it is to do their jobs.

At this point, you get the feeling Hayden must have started to wonder how Peterson could have possibly gotten out of her "internet shut-in" basement and braved the outside world to go see him speak.

Oh and then there's the bit where he insists that the public is actually fine with NSA snooping... just like they're fine with targeted killings. Except, what he really meant by "the public" was "American Presidents."

At one point, Hayden also compared NSA snooping programs to other controversial programs that he says have been accepted by the public. He pointed to targeted killing, which he says two presidents have now signed off on "with some degree of enthusiasm."

Note to Hayden from the internet shut-in community: having a President "enthusiastically" support his own ability to authorize spying on everyone and killing people overseas is, uh, somewhat different than suggesting the public supports it.

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Filed Under: ed snowden, michael hayden

58 Comments

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Ninja (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 4:00am

Hayden also called him "a troubled young man -- morally arrogant to a tremendous degree -- but a troubled young man."

"I suspect he will end up like [...]: Isolated, bored, lonely, depressed -- and most of them ended up alcoholics."
No really, there's only one obligatory mention here:

There's only one obligatory remark for that:

Pot, meet kettle.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 5:45am

The US constitution lacks one critical feature.

Who is suppose to protect the people from the government when there is a 90+% reelection rate?
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 5:53am

You think "targeted killing" means overseas? You should know better than that by now.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 5:57am

I've just got one question:
Why is anyone even giving this senile old man the time of day?
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arcan, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:00am

Morally corrupt... Right...
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arcan, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:01am

Re: I've just got one question:
money
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:05am

i suppose i ought to know better, really.
to have this guy come out and say such a derogatory comment about Snowden, is absolutely disgraceful, particularly when you consider what he has done to undermine the privacy and freedom of the millions in the USA and the rest of the world. if anyone should beware of becoming anything less than a man, Hayden is one of them. what an absolute ass hole comment! and i have to ask the question, how does he know what Snowden's state of mind is, unless he and his colleagues are still illegally taping into emails and conversations that they have no right to access!
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Colin, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:17am

"In a perfect world I would brief the House and Senate intelligence committees and be done with it"

Translation: "I don't want to have to deal with all you fucking common folk who make my job hard by not letting me overstep my boundaries."

Yes, Snowden is clearly the one in this scenario who is "arrogant."
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:17am

It takes one to know one?
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Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:20am

Here's Hayden's quote as reported by RT.com:

"I suspect he will end up like most of the rest of the... Soviet Union: ... alcoholics."
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:21am

sigh...character assassination is a lost art.

They (NSA, CIA, whatever) have the means to fabricate an elaborate story of sexual deviance and/or economical malfeasance and/or much worse things. But no, they choose petty insults.

Hayden comes across (to the informed, at least) as a bumbling idiot, and the reputation of various three-letter agencies takes yet another hit. It just reinforces the point - After 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, the Boston bombings, and all other recent disasters - that the USA is completely incapable of handling a major crisis at the highest levels of government.

Incompetence is rampant. You people are actually lucky that the rest of the world doesn't want to annihilate you that badly. Because, given how the country is being run, they could if they wanted to...
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The Real Michael, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:24am

Considering the rather tremendous damage that the NSA has inflicted on both our Constitutional rights and the rapidly changing perception of our nation on the international level due to the NSA's unwarranted spying (e.g. Brazil wanting to do away with reliance on all US tech services), who is this guy to be talking about morals? Needless to say, when your occupation consists primarily of spying on your own countrymen, you lose the moral high ground.
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Prashanth (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:25am

There's only one way to find out:
Use the NSA to track his records to see if he really does become an alcoholic...oh wait.
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:34am

Townhall
I would like to see this fool forced to speak at a townhall meeting where a lot of senators and reps have been getting heat from the people. Of course, you can't blame these unelected bureaucrats, all they have to do is (maybe) be dragged before a committee (circus sideshow) and dodge the truth. Otherwise they are shielded and unaccountable to 'we the people' and we don't know which of our reps to punish. If Hayden had to get up and give his speech at a townhall I could see him getting tarred, feathered, and carried out on a rail.
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I_am_so_smrt (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:44am

Morally Arrogant
I love it. I need to find me a 'cloak of moral arrogance' for my Halloween Ed Snowden costume!
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FM Hilton, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:46am

Morally arrogant
You have to understand that in Haydon's sphere of the world, everyone is corrupt, and buyable. That means anyone who doesn't play by his rules is an automatic loser.

That includes Congress, Presidents, and mere whistleblowers, er, 'traitors'.

He's just projecting what he deals with on a daily basis- bored, lonely, depressed people -- and most of them alcoholics.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:55am

Pulled rank
Interesting talking points, but not much substance in them:

"society must make a choice between security and liberty"

That's a false dichotomy, spying on my kids does not make America safe. Spying on your allies does not make America safe, spying on politicians doesn't. Spying on Haydens own 3 kids doesn't make America safe. (And I doubt they're happy that papa's NSA was watching their every move and reporting back to him).

But he has accepted that he's taking away liberty here. Which is a positive thing. How much liberty will the NSA take away next year? Does General Hayden care to tell us? Or is that another secret to be kept from Congress?

IMHO, this is the problem with putting General's in charge. They don't have to convince or persuade people, they can just pull rank.

He pulled rank over Congress, changed the law, lied to them, kept secrets from them and so did General Alexander, the guy who followed on from him.
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Fickelbra (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 6:56am

I feel sorry for those who do not drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.
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Transmitte (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:05am

At the rate he's going, I'd almost wager a bet he's attempting to troll everyone.

Go home Hayden, you're drunk!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:09am

The real quote

Hayden has a bleak future. Describing NSA contractor Hayden "a troubled man -- morally arrogant to a tremendous degree -- but a troubled man."

Hayden further compared prospects to those working for the NSA "I suspect they will end up like most of the rest of the NSA: Isolated, bored, lonely, depressed -- and most of them ended up alcoholics."
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:25am

Re: Pulled rank
"society must make a choice between security and liberty"

I'm going to go with a wiser man named Ben Franklin on this one and choose liberty.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:30am

"[y]ou're going to have to get informed, and you're going to have to decide where the box is that you want your security services to work in." Later he added, "I guarantee it, your security services, the NSA, CIA, all they want from you is where's the box"

This Michael Hayden character is actually Thomas Friedman in disguise, right?
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Ninja (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:36am

Re:
the ... are rather disposable one has to agree. +funny for the timely stereotype!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:36am

Does he know what we don't?
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ltlw0lf (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:37am

Re:
There's only one obligatory remark for that:

Pot, meet kettle.

That is what I was thinking when I read it too.

I question his supposition that being isolated, lonely, bored, and depressed ends with alcoholism. While I have no scientific evidence otherwise, based on my limited experience dealing with alcoholics, it was the social aspect of drinking that led them to alcoholism, but their alcoholism turned them into isolated, bored, lonely, and depressed social outcasts. I think this is another correlation does not equal causation argument.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:38am

I suppose it takes an alcoholic to know one.
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roarshock44, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:39am

pot, meet kettle.

no kidding.� dollars to donuts, hayden drinks heavily right now.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:40am

Re:
Dang, you beat me to it!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:45am

Does he know what we don't?
Does this Revelation come from closely held personal experience or some other special insight? More likely just being a blowhard again. The one that grates most on "important men" is being beaten at their own game publicly and powerless to do anything about it. Most embarrassing!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:46am

Advocacy?
This is just golden:
"But he claimed the dialogue was "pushed into the public domain by advocates." In particular, he questioned the credibility of reporting by Glenn Greenwald for the Guardian and Barton Gellman for The Post."

But actually changing an entire society into an Orwellian nightmare is of course not advocating anything. The creators and benefactors of the surveillance state are just neutral civil servants with no hidden agendas or political affiliations at all.
A total lack of self awereness on display here.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:47am

I'd say he is "likely To Become An Alcoholic Because He's" in Russia.
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Baldaur Regis (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:52am

Do people who retire from public life just stop paying attention to the world around them? Surely Mr. Hayden must realize that it is 2013, not 1953 - Russia is not the USSR; they have cable and McDonald's, traffic jams and credit cards now. Mr. Snowden might become depressed at the lack of Walmarts, but isolated, lonely, depressed and alcoholic? Only if he's rooming with Mr. Hayden.
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Shon Gale (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 7:58am

I am sure Hayden knows all about this from experience. But just because it happened to him doesn't mean it will happen to everyone else.
But this does makes me more paranoid. I now have visions of Alcoholic Spy's rummaging through my personal information at will and at random. Ever pull a prank when you were drunk?
I would trust a bunch of weed heads to protect my data more than I ever would a bunch of drunks. From now on my image of the NSA, FBI, SSS, CIA is that they are all a bunch of burnt-out drunks.
I feel so protected.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 8:08am

Re: Pulled rank
"society must make a choice between security and liberty"

One of the things security keeps safe is liberty. If I do not have liberty, I do not have security.
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 8:10am

Re:
Because, given how the country is being run, they could if they wanted to...
Well perhaps, except;
1/ Most countries are in little better state governmentally than the US
2/ They seem to be doing just fine at it by themselves after just the one nudge in 2001 so arguably it would be wasted effort.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 8:17am

Regardless of what troubled, arrogant Michael Hayden says... remember people, Russia.
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Brent Ashley (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 8:19am

Competence
When one assesses Hayden as a bumbling idiot or the rest of the players in this and any other government operation (TSA, war on drugs, voting machines...) as incompetent, one is measuring them by the mandate specified in their job description - i.e. to serve the American public, to further the needs of the American people as a whole.

While these people are reading the relevant legislation via their secret decoder rings, they are also completely dismissing the mandate that the rest of the world is measuring them by and instead following their own agendas. And by those agendas, they are far from incompetent.

Each of these "incompetent" initiatives is _extremely_ competent at transferring taxpayer wealth to the corporations that supply the equipment and manpower to implement the programs. Is a $100-million abandoned software project an example of incompetence? Yes, if you measure it by the stated mandate. No, if you measure it by the software company's agenda. Is a prison system overflowing their capacity a problem? Yes if you measure it by their expressed mandate. Not at all if you forklift your skids of profits from the penitentiary-building industry.

Whenever you hear of government incompetence at levels such as this, look for the beneficiary of the "incompetence" and turn your perspective around. You will find that these are some very competent folks.

They also seem to have some amazing foresight. I have been intrigued more than once at the speed with which expensive scanners or voting machines have been ramped into production and distribution and pushed through certification following on the introduction of the legislation that enables them. It's uncanny.

Follow the tax dollars.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 8:21am

Re:
After Snowden released information on his pet project? Yeah, you can bet on it.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 8:43am

Oh, the irony
I suspect Hayden's future to be typical of lying, incompetent, political scumbags like him: nothing will change.

That's the irony here - EXPOSE the liars, and face exile in Russia.

BE the liar, and nothing happens.

Great country wee have here. Real exceptional.
/sarcasm
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Me, 18 Sep 2013 @ 9:10am

Manning and Snowden give information about our government back to the citizens and they're labelled traitors and immoral.

The NSA gives information about our citizens to a FOREIGN government (Israel, among others) and the NSA apologists see nothing wrong with that.

Bizarro world.
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Internet Zen Master (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 9:23am

Re: Re:
And let us not forget:

3/ the US has the ability to bomb the entire Earth into a nuclear wasteland if necessary. Don't think for a second that there's nobody in the top ranks of command with the balls to suggest nuking the enemy if the rest of the world picked a fight with the US (M.A.D. be damned!). There's probably a war hawk or three in the top military brass who'd love it if the US ever got a chance to use its nuclear arsenal.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 9:26am

Re:
"I suspect he will end up like me, Isolated, bored, lonely, depressed and most of them ended up alcoholics."

Had to reread it just to be sure
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raindog469 (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 9:33am

Bitter much, Hayden?
I absolutely love the fact that the best insult he could come up with was essentially "yeah, he's not an alcoholic now, but just you wait..."
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John William Nelson (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 9:34am

Or because he now lives in Russia?
More likely, Mr. Snowden is likely to become an alcoholic because he now lives in Russia. And trying to hang with Russians and Ukranians in drinking alcohol can lead to alcoholism. After all, Oksana Baiul has made it clear that five Long Island Iced Teas mean nothing to a Russian or Ukrainian in the infamous "I'm Russian and therefore not drunk" defense.

And this line of reasoning is still superior to Hayden's line of reasoning.
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Blaine (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 9:43am

Of course they want to be in "the box." It's bigger on the inside.
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Kevin Carson, 18 Sep 2013 @ 10:24am

Hayden
Hayden is likely to be a murdering pedophile with dozens of dead cub scouts under his house because... well, just because.
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windjammer (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 11:41am

Hayden not morally arrogant or troubled?
I think Snowden will have no trouble in proving this guy wrong.
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LeSinge (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 12:01pm

Re:
That is unfortunately true. If you huff and puff at the big bad wolf, there is no place to hide that he can't find you and ruin your life.
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LeSinge (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 12:04pm

Re:
I think once you hit the Washington bubble you immediately get out of touch with normal people.
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gorehound (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 12:07pm

Sounds like he was describing himself...........Hayden is a POS Traitorous Scum !
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 12:12pm

Re:
Simple they're part of the dinosaurs still brainwashed by the Cold War era. If someone considers Russia a serious threat it is a sign that they're a whackjob living in the past. Russia isn't in that good of a situation - they can't even keep their population growth non-negative!
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That One Guy (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 12:21pm

Re:
Oh this isn't your usual 'pot calling kettle black', this more 'soot encrusted, banged up, scratched up, filthy pot called moderately used but mostly clean kettle black'.
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New Mexico Mark, 18 Sep 2013 @ 12:48pm

Re:
"I am sure Hayden knows all about this from experience. But just because it happened to him doesn't mean it will happen to everyone else."

I think the psychology term is "projection". And yes, it sounds like this is a good example, especially with his comments on morality.

It's the reason Hollywood makes so many movies where the villain is an out-of-control megacorporation with leaders who will stop at nothing to achieve their evil plans and who often use excessive influence over government policy to further their agenda.
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Sunhawk (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 2:58pm

Screw you, General Hayden.
"Hayden repeatedly pushed his view that American society must choose between security and liberty"

Oh, fuck you, general. Fuck. You.

First of all, no, we don't have to "choose". We can have both just fine, thank you.

Second, speaking as a member of "American society", I choose liberty.

Third, what's security for? Protecting our lives and our principles. If we don't have liberty, then what's the fucking point of security.

North Korea is pretty secure (especially considering their craptastic economy, leadership... everything, really). Not a lot of liberty, is there?
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Anonymous, 18 Sep 2013 @ 3:01pm

Re:
At least he HAS morals, which is more than can be said of Hayden.
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 1:19am

Re: Pulled rank
spying on politicians doesn't.
Hey, the rest I agree with, but this one just might make things safer. Besides, they're mostly enemies anyway aren't they? :-)
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Mark Jenko, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:52pm

Snowden's future drinking problem
Of course he will become a drunk. He is in Russia after all, a place where more people are pickled in vodka than anywhere else on the planet. It only adds to the punishment of not being able to go home...ever. Justice has been served it seems.
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Mark Noo, 19 Nov 2013 @ 10:31pm

Can we have a No-Confidence vote and get rid of him
This guy isn't even smart enough to know to shut up. How in the heck can he be smart enough to run the NSA.

If he is unable to control his own mouth, why would we let him control an intelligence agency.
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