Another Court Won't Block Dish's AutoHopper; TV Networks Plan To Shoot Selves In Foot In Response

from the and-off-we-go dept

Wed, Sep 18th 2013 11:23pm — Mike Masnick

Last year, DISH won a nearly complete victory against Fox and NBC in California over the legality of DISH's AutoHopper feature, which skips over commercials with shows that the DVR offering records. However, there were two separate lawsuits on this issue: that one in California, and another one involving CBS and ABC in New York... and that court has basically ruled the same way, refusing to grant the networks an injunction to block the DISH product. The full ruling is under seal (most likely to redact certain parts) and will be released with redactions sometime soon (next week, I think).

As the link above notes, the court did say that CBS could try to unwind its retransmission agreement with DISH, arguing that DISH misled the company when they were working on that agreement. It also notes that ABC's carriage agreement with DISH expires at the end of this month, and that "negotiations [are] not going well, with a possible blackout happening soon." In other words, the networks are likely about to shoot themselves (and the public) in the foot by pulling their channels from DISH in a petulant act of self-harm, because they're upset that DISH is innovating and offering the public what they want in a manner that the networks won't do.

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Filed Under: autohopper, copyright, injunction, retransmission
Companies: abc, cbs, dish, disney, fox, nbc, nbc universal, news corp.

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That One Guy (profile), 18 Sep 2013 @ 11:17pm

Cutting off your nose to spite your neighbor
So the networks are mad at Dish because they offer a device/service that allows people to potentially skip commercials, so they threaten to pull their channels altogether, which will completely eliminate their commercials...

I get the feeling their lawyers/execs may not have thought that one through completely.
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- PRMan, 19 Sep 2013 @ 9:40am
  
  Re: Cutting off your nose to spite your neighbor
  "10% of our users are skipping commercials! Let's pull our channels for 2 months during the prime viewing season! That'll show 'em!"
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- Bergman (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 11:05pm
  
  Re: Cutting off your nose to spite your neighbor
  Exactly. Their business model can literally be summed up as number of eyeballs per broadcast advertisement. They aren't in business to sell TV shows, they sell advertising slots.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2013 @ 11:49pm

I remember using a commercial skipping feature on my VCR back in the 80's. It's called the Fast Forward button.
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- Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 1:07am
  
  Re:
  I remember using a commercial skipping feature on my VCR back in the 80's. It's called the Fast Forward button.
  I remember using a commercial skipping feature back in the 70's. It's called walking out of the room to take a leak or make a cup of tea :-)
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  - Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 4:13am
    
    Re: Re:
    Taking leaks during commercials is against our TOS you are now banned from watching the ABC network!
    
    Ned A. Cluae Esq.
    ABC Legal Team
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    - Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 5:37am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      which network said it, in the early 2000's, that NOT watching commercials was a violation of their TOS? and they were preparing to take the few who didn't watch commercials to court.
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      - Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:16am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Yes, of course ... when you use the bathroom during commercial break you are guilty of theft ... stealing tv. Prepare to be arrested.
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        Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:43am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Thats why I installed a TV in the bathroom, afraid ICE, DOJ,EPA and/or FBI might scare the crap out of me when they bust down the door and charge me with copyright theft for missing an add when flushing my superbowl.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:54am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        And they will soon be able to see you while you watch tv.
        
        Better get a handle on that Mike & Ike habit.
        
        http://www.examiner.com/article/lower-merion-catches-student-selling-mike-and-ike-candy-fb i-called-in
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      - PRMan, 19 Sep 2013 @ 9:41am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I believe it was an ABC exec...
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      - CK20XX, 19 Sep 2013 @ 1:12pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Was it this guy?
        
        "Your contract with the network when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots. Otherwise you couldn't get the show on an ad-supported basis. Any time you skip a commercial or watch the button you're actually stealing the programming... I guess there's a certain amount of tolerance for going to the bathroom."
        � Jamie Kellner, Former CEO of Turner Broadcasting
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        Sheogorath (profile), 22 Sep 2013 @ 6:38pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Your contract with the network when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots. Otherwise you couldn't get the show on an ad-supported basis.
        Seems like Dish may have a new market amongst satellite and cable viewers. After all, they've already paid their subscription fees, so they shouldn't have to watch the nine minute long ad breaks!
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    - Michael, 19 Sep 2013 @ 8:46am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      It won't be long before your XBox notices you getting up to take a leak and pauses the commercial until you return.
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- JBDragon (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 12:46pm
  
  Re:
  My VCR actually had a Automatic Commercial Skip feature built in. After it finished recording, it would then rewind and go back though marking where the commercials started and ended, so when you went back to play, it would on it's own FF though commercials. It wasn't 100% perfect, but it worked pretty good.
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Anon E. Mous (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 12:17am

The networks like CBS,NBC,ABC,TBS etc are the reason people don't like commercials and want's a skip feature. How many times have you been watching a show or movie and there are several commercials every 5 minutes?

It is the reason why companies like DISH'S commercial skip option are appealing to people. Yes some people like commercials but not everyone. We all get that this is how the networks make money is by there commercials and they sell that on how many people they reach.

But there are just as many that when a commercial comes on will get up and go to the can, or go let the dog out or actually stop and listen to what the wife is saying.

So how many really watch the commercials? How many of us have seen the commercials so many times we can recite them off by heart.

Maybe I don't want to learn to drive a 18 wheeler, or listen to the Vince the slap chop guy say "look at my nuts", or want to buy Ron Popiels knife set and get all the other shit that comes with it.

Maybe I don't want to watch that Pharmaceutical ad that spends the first 15 seconds telling me how great this pill is and spends the next 45 seconds telling me all the shit that's going to occur if it's side effects kick my ass from taking it.

The networks is concerned about DISH customers missing their commercials, they are more worried about the precedent that might occur if the t.v manufacturers and set top manufacturers start to bring equipment in the likes of what DISH is going to do, but on a different scale to the rest of the consumers who don't care much for commercials.

Then they have a problem on their hands, this was more of a preemptive strike to keep this from occurring. You can bet your ass that if some manufacturer decides to do this for T.V.'s or a set top box that the Networks will be howling at the moon to get the courts and government to stop it.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 3:17am
  
  Re:
  ...Why do the networks need to learn to drive an 18-wheeler, when they cant' even drive a network properly, which has no wheels?
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  - Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:33am
    
    Re: Re:
    How else will they carry service to us? Duh.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:20am
  
  Re:
  Not to mention these days a lot of commercials tend to be made to annoy you to get you to remember them and buy the product. And then political ads, they're vomit inducing often if you don't agree with the political party airing it.
  
  I remember those stupid Ranch dressing commercials they used to air. I will NEVER buy Ranch dressing EVER because of those annoying as hell commercials they aired, even if I find out that their stuff makes every food taste 100 times better.
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- fedupviewer, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:25am
  
  Re: commercials
  And no one has mentioned the 2 biggest annoyances ever:
  1. the Geicko lizard from hell and the progressive lady. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SEE THEM IN AN HOUR! I recite them in my sleep
  2. the sound phenomenon that started about 10 years ago: we all know it, you're watching a show on normal volume but cant hear a thing so you have to up the volume to about blaster level to hear dialogue. Then, BAM, its commercial time and the sound BLOWS YOU OUT OF YOUR SEAT. I heard the FCC courts actually ruled this practice unfair and told the networks they had to stop it. But they havent (CBS are you listening!!) I put my volume on mute as soon as commercials come on, of course nothing can help actually watching a show and hearing whats being said; my volume only goes up to 40 and dialogue is still subdued. And no I am not elderly or hearing impaired at all; actually my hearing is great.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - R.H. (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 10:50pm
    
    Re: Re: commercials
    The networks don't have to fix the sound issue until December 2013. If it's still happening next year, complain.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 12:22am

Dish should sign up with Aero and make the networks explode.

Maybe its time to stop pretending that advertising is such a viable income stream. Sending content people don't want to pad the shows out 8 minutes.

If only there was this system where people could purchase content without advertising and it would allow them to have control over the where and when they can watch... maybe some of them would stop doing it for free.
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- Memphis Slim San, 19 Sep 2013 @ 12:34am
  
  Re:
  "Dish should sign up with Aero and make the networks explode."
  
  OMG Dude, that would be Epic!
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  - Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 2:23am
    
    Re: Re:
    It doesn't even need to be either of them; the networks exploding would be epic enough.
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 1:11am

If only there was this system where people could purchase content without advertising and it would allow them to have control over the where and when they can watch... maybe some of them would stop doing it for free.
What??? Offer people a service they want????? That's just crazy-talk, man! No-one would ever pay for that!!
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 3:46am
  
  Re:
  People dont want what they are asking for. The networks knows that there is a huge difference between what they ask for and what they need. Customers needs to be spanked by commercials every 5 minutes to enjoy a show. if only customers realized that...
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
any moose cow word, 19 Sep 2013 @ 2:15am

If commercial ad revenue is what pays for network TV shows, and the ads are broadcast to cable and satellite viewers, then why do these service providers have to pay a retransmission fee? It sounds like either the networks are double dipping by taking from both the advertisers and the service providers, or the advertisers are getting a free ride by not paying for the non-broadcast viewers. Either way, if the service providers have to directly subsidize the network programing they rebroadcast, the fee should give them the license to drop the commercials.
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Wolfy, 19 Sep 2013 @ 3:16am

Ever since the laws regarding truth in advertising were quietly allowed to slip into disregard, the content and quality of commercials on US television has slid into the toilet.

If they are not insulting your intelligence, they're lying to you to sell you a product that's likely bad for you.

An unexpected benefit of becoming angry enough to "cut the cable" was total freedom from political ads... which are the worst offenders when it comes to both categories.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 5:03am

average_joe just hates it when due process is enforced.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:22am
  
  Re:
  average_joe just hates it when due process is enforced.
  
  LOL! I'm flattered you think of me so often.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 23 Sep 2013 @ 1:36am
    
    Re: Re:
    Congratulations, have a DMCA.
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Bengie, 19 Sep 2013 @ 5:21am

Off my lawn
When I was young, I watched commercials because they were short and I may have missed part of the show I was watching.

Now I skip commercials because I'm watching 2-3 shows at the same time. One commercials kicks in for show A, change channel to show B and commercial is ending, show B's commercials kick in, change to show C, show C's commercials end, change back to show A to see commercials ending.

Eventually I stopped watching TV.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 5:55am
  
  Re: Off my lawn
  ADD much?
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- John Fenderson (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 1:46pm
  
  Re: Off my lawn
  Me too, except for the channel surfing.
  
  Commercials are what pushed me most of the way to not watching TV anymore. What pushed me the rest of the way was a combination of those commercial graphical overlays during the show and product placement.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 5:53am

so, as per usual, entertainment industries greed is taking over. rather than trying to compete for a market share, they want to get competition removed totally by the courts.

i cannot understand why there appears to be not one single court or politician that can see what these industries are up to! how much progress are they going to be allowed to inhibit or get banned before they are stopped? does no one have the foresight to realise how far we have been held back and how much revenue has been lost? any statement about the money earned for the economy by Hollywood etc is complete bullshit and they know it!!
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- John Fenderson (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 12:28pm
  
  Re:
  i cannot understand why there appears to be not one single court or politician that can see what these industries are up to
  
  What makes you think that they don't understand this? I think that they totally understand what they're being bribed to do.
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AndyD273 (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 5:59am

As a dish subscriber, it would be weird to have to find alternate means of watching the programming over the internet for broadcast television channels...

We just have a normal DVR instead of a Hopper (Hopper rental cost was higher) but the skip forward 30 seconds button works pretty good.

We were cord cutters for a few years. Worse comes to worst, I still have the antenna, and I know how to use it.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:19am
  
  Re:
  And OTA usually results in better resolution.
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- art guerrilla (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 8:26am
  
  Re:
  1. commercials generally suck, i don't want to watch them if i have a choice (which is why i get pissed off being forced to watch TEEVEE commercials (nevermind the dozen movie trailers) at the movies I PAY YOU A BUNCH OF MONEY TO WATCH... FUCK YOU VERY MUCH mpaa douches...
  
  2. having said that, the infrequent 5-10 second commercials on hulu are pretty much endurable; i would PREFER to have NO commercials, but theirs are not excessively intrusive...
  
  3. LOVE that i can watch the daily show/colbert report (etc) the next day in about half the time it would take watching it live...
  
  4. OTA antenna works great, roku is pretty cool, but cord-cutting lasted only about a month before SWMBO was jonesing for some football not available elsewhere...
  
  so, -MUCH to my chagrin (at minimum)- we are back in the thrall of Big Media: she ordered a reduced dish package from what we had, and it is on month-to-month so we can cancel when we want, but she simply could not live without suckling from the glass teat...
  *sigh*
  
  why did i get married again ? ? ?
  
  art guerrilla
  aka ann archy
  eof
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:23am

If there is a market for such a thing as an "ad blocker", that means that there is demand.

The networks should stop for 10 seconds and think WHY people would want something that blocks ads in the first place (hint: ads are loud, obnoxious and often not relevant).
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:31am
  
  Re:
  They know why, but they don't care. They just want their money. Period.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2013 @ 6:57am
  
  Re:
  "ads are loud, obnoxious and often not relevant"
  
  Wasn't there a law somewhere that was supposed to stop the crazy ad loudness thing? Seems they just ignore it.
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Michael, 19 Sep 2013 @ 8:52am

Once again, they networks think "Criminal Interference with a Business Model" is a real thing.
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slick8086, 19 Sep 2013 @ 8:54am

Honest Question
How would these networks be hurting themselves by not renewing with Dish? If the networks get revenue from commercials, and Dish isn't showing the commercials already, then how would pulling their content harm the networks?
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Josef Anvil (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 11:39am

Tech doesn't care
No matter how much influence a company has and no matter how much an industry tries to fight, tech moves forward.

It does not care about protecting your business model. We moved to gasoline powered cars, we switched to email, we moved to mobile devices, we share content on the net, we will copy in 3D.

Adapt or die. Ask the good people at Kodak that thought film would never go away. Think TV won't move to a net based model???? Dream on.
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Chris in Utah (profile), 19 Sep 2013 @ 1:03pm

Summary
Anybody else reading this thinking; Gee, follow the money and you'll know why they do what they do.
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JJ Joseph, 19 Sep 2013 @ 2:16pm

Commercials
@John F:"Commercials are what pushed me most of the way to not watching TV anymore."

It was the stuff IN BETWEEN the commercials that convinced me to disconnect the cable 12 years ago. I haven't missed any of it, and I got my life back!
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BoogerEater, 20 Sep 2013 @ 11:45am

So, I was watching TV the other night...
It was a 1 hour show on Discovery that I recorded on my DVR. After skipping the 57 minutes of commercials, I thought to myself, now what am I going to do for the rest of the hour?
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John85851 (profile), 21 Sep 2013 @ 1:07pm

Commercials should be content
Like it's been said many times on this site, people will watch commercials if they're relevant and contain good content. The best example is the "Greatest Commercials of the Year" show on TBS every year. If people hate commercials, why do they watch a show *about* commercials. The answer is something the networks can't figure out: people watch because those commercials are entertaining.

Another good example is when I watched "Caprica" on Hulu. (This show was a spin-off of "Battlestar Galactica".) Since it's an NBC/ Universal show, there were commercials for other shows, but then there was a commercial for "Battlestar Galactica" on Blu-Ray. I don't even have a Blu-Ray player, but this commercial almost convinced me to go get one. :)
Here's a hint for commercial makers: make commercials that are relevant to the show's content, but in a good way. If I'm watching a sci-fi show, show commercials for other sci-fi stuff. But if I'm watching a newshow about an unsolved robbery, don't show me commercials for alarm systems. ;)

But I think this kind of relevant programming may be too complex for networks and they'd rather run any commercial from any company that gives them money.
Like another poster pointed out, the networks bombard us with drug ads that spend the first 15 seconds saying how great the drug is and the next 60 seconds talking about the side effects. (Okay, the original poster said 45 seconds, but I could swear it's longer than that.)

And here's a hint to commercial-makers: if your commercial didn't sell me on the product when I saw the first commercial, beating me over the head with 20 more of the same commercials isn't going to convince me to buy. In fact, it might annoy me and I'll tell my friends how annoying you are.
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