Proud Voters Tweeting In The UK Could Receive Jail Time And A Fine
from the sharing-is-caring dept
As anyone who reads my posts can probably tell, I really love politics. I like talking about issues, I like playing polemicist with politicians, and I really, really like voting. There's a sense of pride in voting, where even if I ultimately know my contribution to the running of our society is a small one, I'm still engaged in it. I'm not alone, either. Lots of people like to share the fact that they voted and what they voted for. That kind of pride is a good thing, I think.
The UK disagrees, apparently, since the actions of many voters recently could amount to big fines and jail time.
While the fear over voting-booth selfies during Thursday's Local and European Elections was mostly exaggerated, there is a real danger lurking inside polling stations for British voters: Sharing photos of completed ballots—something many appear keen to do—is against U.K. law. The Register reports that under various parts of Section 66 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, it is an offence to make public someone's vote after a mark has been made on the paper. Many citizens don't appear to have realised this and have proudly been indicating who they have voted for on Twitter.
Now, my understanding for the reasons of this law is that the government is attempting to minimize any chance of voter intimidation or influencing the votes of others through this ballot sharing. The general idea is that if everyone keeps their voting ballot a secret, the larger public's vote will be more impartial. Here is my nuanced and well-reasoned response to the theory and the accompanying law: "Hahahahahahahahaha!"
The entire notion that keeping pictures and social media out of the vote-sharing game will accomplish anything at all is inherently silly. The culture of politics today is so completely open for discussion that there is an entire industry built around it: the political theater on talk-radio and the twenty-four hour news channels. Any pretense about getting citizens to not talk about who and what they voted for is so naive that it's a wonder the entire notion hasn't been laughed off of the British Islands by now. And, as we've covered before, it isn't just that side of the ocean, either. Right here at home, in Wisconsin, citizens can also face fines and jail time for sharing their completed ballots on social media.
The point is that now that the culture of sharing has grown such that this many people are violating this law, the entire purpose of the law is logically obviated. After all, if huge numbers of people are sharing their ballots, the intimidation factor kind of goes away. It's just a matter of pride from involved citizens. Criminalizing that pride doesn't make any sense.
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Filed Under: democracy, free speech, sharing, social media, uk, voting
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Different reason
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It is an indirect and problematic type of compromising the integrity of the voting process!
When that is said, having a law against the publication of what you vote for, is not the most obvious way to fight this.
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If you allow people to post proof of what they voted for, you will never, ever be able to prove that it was not done under duress of some kind. If someone pressures you to vote a certain way and to show proof, and you cave, obviously YOU won't tell the truth about it. Because inherently he has got something on you to make you do what he wants.
No one is making it illegal to prove you went to vote, or to proclaim loudly and proudly what or whom you voted for. As long as you are not allowed to post proof, noone can coerce you OR buy you, because no one can verify if you did what you say you did.
Without the prohibition of those photgraphs and similar 'what I voted for'-proofs the entire point of a secret ballot is annihilated. Therefor, this prohibition is a very, very important basic part of a free democracy.
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If you vote in person at a polling booth in a pencil-and-paper election, there really isn't any practical way for someone else to be certain that you voted a particular way.
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That last one I could live with actually.
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And anyway the principal crime is against the voting process, not against the individual whose vote is stolen. It is a crime to voluntarily sell a vote as well. When proof is provided of how someone has voted, a crime has been committed, regardless of the circumstances. This means that it is necessary to prevent, as far as possible, all occurrences of such cases.
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That's not the point.
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1. do NOT 'trust' computer-based PROPRIETARY voting systems the way they are presently implemented...
2. ONE of the suspicions (there are MANY 'anomalous' elections if you follow such issues) i have, is how 'exit polling' (which used to be an INCREDIBLY accurate measure of eventual vote results), has been denigrated such that when you get exit polling results which vary significantly from the *SUPPOSED* vote count, they now say the exit polling must be flawed, rather than think something is wrong with the vote count...
how con-veeeeeen-yant...
3. IF -as a self-defense strategy- sheeple actually suspected the vote counting was not on the up-and-up, and proceeded to do a 'people's vote count' by -say- these type of selfies (why do i hate myself for even using the narcissistic hipster term ?), then -obviously- Empire can't have that, thus this preemptive strike to avoid that little potential glimmer of self-rule...
check and mate, sheeple, what you gonna do now ? ? ?
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Wow. That's not abuseable at all.
I mean, it's better than electronic systems, but there's a reason large felt tip pens are used here.
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Damn, I think all the non-UKIP parties missed a trick ;)
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Nope
"It is not a crime to snap silly, duckface pictures of yourself when casting a vote. But revealing how someone else has ticked the box is illegal."
Which is probably as it should be.
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The clear inference in s66(3)(c) is that it refers to you tweeting information about someone else's vote. You can go outside and broadcast the information as to how *you* voted as much or as little as you like.
Mind you, I'd be more than a little irritated at some clown taking photos in a polling station...
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"Anyone who inadvertently reveals how someone else votes in Thursday's local and European elections could face a £5,000 fine or six months in prison."
I'd be interesting in seeing how many people will be prosecuted for taking a photograph of how they (and only they) voted in this, or for that matter any, election. Give it six months, and I'd be very, very, surprised if the answer isn't zero.
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It is unlawful to be a willing participant in a vote-trading scheme, even if the vote being traded is your own. That is, you are not allowed even voluntarily to let your vote be used by someone else. This is because doing so is to give improper influence in the election to whomsoever you are selling your vote to.
Secrecy in voting is NOT a matter of private choice. It is, and should be, a matter of public policy. Votes are not private, like medical records or banking transactions. they are SECRET, which is something totally different.
In a paper ballot system, vote rigging is prevented by the fact that there are many pairs of eyes observing the process, watching votes being counted. If the people in charge of tallying the votes are cheating, it can be seen, because it is clear what each vote on each ballot paper means, even though no ballot paper can be traced to any individual voter.
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If votes are secret, by your definition, then merely telling someone, how you voted would have to be a crime. Sharing how someone else voted without their consent would be an altogether different matter. I know others have said that it is customary that people there don't share who they vote for which is all the more reason why this is silly as a very small percentage of people that go against that is not likely to have much if any affect on the outcome anyway.
Also, photography absolutely is speech.
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No, of course it wouldn't. Only PROVING to someone else how you voted has to be a crime. If I just tell someone else how I voted, there is no way of knowing whether I am telling the truth. I could tell me wife that I voted Labour, my workmates that I voted Conservative and my parents that I voted UKIP, if I so wished. No more than one of these could possibly be true (maybe none are and I voted Lib Dem). The ability to prove how you voted is what violates the secret ballot, and it is what matters for coercion or bribery.
No, it's the same thing. It would be a crime if I were able to prove how they voted. But if I merely told my mate John that my friend Jane had voted Labour, that is not a crime because I have no idea whether it is actually true or not. She might not be very pleased with me, but that's just a matter of social etiquette.
That depends on the closeness of the result. In a closely fought election, a few dozen stolen votes may determine the outcome of the election. There is no number of stolen votes that is acceptable in an election. We have to keep it to the smallest possible number, and that means closely monitoring the secrecy of the ballot, and yes, punishing violators.
I never said it wasn't, and this is irrelevant to the question. The point is that some abrogation of freedom of speech (by disallowing dissemination of proof of how someone, including oneself, has voted) is necessary in order to maintain the secrecy of the ballot, as it is in certain other circumstances.
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Furthermore, where does the statute say anything about proof? It says "communicate to any person" which would seem to include talking to people about it.
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Once again, stolen votes do NOT primarily victimise the people whose votes are stolen, but the VOTING PROCESS ITSELF. It is NOT primarily a crime against an individual. If we decide that the right to keep a vote secret is simply a private matter of individual choice, then the case for banning vote trading among consenting parties disappears completely: why should I, as a voter, be prevented from voluntarily entering into an agreement with someone else where I am paid some money to vote for that person's preferred candidate, and to prove that I have delivered send them my completed ballot paper? After all, it's my vote and I can do what I want with it, isn't it?
Well no it isn't. Not in that sense. Using someone else's vote is no less a crime if the person agrees to their vote being used. And the person who agrees to it is also committing a crime. This is because everyone loses when some people are using other people's votes: the principal direct victim is the secret ballot, the voting process.
"Information" about how someone has voted DOES involve proof. Telling someone how I voted is NOT giving them "information", because I COULD BE LYING. It is only information if it INFORMS. This means actual EVIDENCE, not just someone's word.
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Do you lock your door before you leave your house? I suspect so. But by your logic it's OK to leave your front door wide open because there's no evidence of any burglaries in your area.
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But even if he/she did ...
The voter who tweets their own vote (and only their own vote) did not "obtain in a polling station information as to whom the voter in that station is about to vote or has already voted".
That voter already knew, prior to entering that polling station, who he/she was going to vote for, and hence did not "obtain in a polling station" any such information.
Unless the CPS could somehow prove that you didn't know who you were going to vote for at the time you entered the polling station, I think frankly they'd be onto a sticky wicket. Not one, I'd have thought, they'd want to try to set any kind of legal precedent with.
And that's not even talking about freedom of speech - I think they'd have a hard time arguing that you were not permitted to tell people how you voted if you wanted to, and if you're allowed to verbally express it I don't see why expressing it visually (whether as simple text, as a photo, painting, sculpture, or even interpretative dance :) ) could possibly be banned.
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Anyone is, and should be, allowed to declare publicly that they voted for so-and-so. No-one should be allowed to provide evidence of having done so. The integrity of the secret ballot *must* trump freedom of speech in this case.
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NO IT IS NOT. In fact your last sentence contradicts what you wrote before. I can tell someone how I voted, but I could be lying. It is NOT USEFUL as information about how I voted. PROOF of how I voted is information.
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End of story
Look there is no point in carrying on this discussion. You, for whatever reason, are against the secret ballot, perhaps because you want to be able to influence other people's votes. You are therefore using sophistry to defend your position. I'm not interested in debating thsi with you, Mr Anonymous Coward. End of story.
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It is not up to the individual to decide whether to keep their vote secret or not, so get off your high horse about state interference.
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Nope
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What is most important in democracy is that each person's vote is based on their own choice, which means that it should not be possible for anyone else to influence it, whcih means it needs to be cast in secret. You have an agenda against the secret ballot, and are using "freedom of expression" as a canard to pretend that somehow preventing improper influence of people's voting is an attack on democracy, when you are the one who wants to attack democracy by enabling vote buying and other electoral fraud.
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I think the clarification that the law does apply to sending photos of ballot papers is intended to ensure that polling stewards intervene to prevent this happening before the crime has occurred. So it is unlikely to even get to a CPS lawyer's desk because it would have been prevented before it happened. Only someone who stubbornly insisted on photographing their ballot paper, and not taking a fresh one from the steward, could possibly be prosecuted.
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It doesn't say what seems to be being assumed here.
It's a non-story...
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Whereas the Register original refers to section 66A, Prohibition on publication of exit polls.
Nice.
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Though personally I think it's extremely bad manners to do so.
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But I think it would be quite bizarre to do so, and I don't see the CPS trying it unless something truly bizarre happened. I suspect there'd be uproar if somebody told the British public they *had* to keep secret how they voted.
It's kind of traditional that we do - even amongst my own family, we don't say how we voted - but if somebody tried to say it was legally required that we don't? Yeah, that boat wouldn't float. Daily Mail would probably have a field day :)
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"Whether or not you could be lying when you tell people how you voted is completely irrelevant." WRONG. It is PRECISELY the point. Me saying I voted for the Purple Party is not proof that I actually did so. I can tell anyone what I think they want to hear about how I voted.
Images can be altered, perhaps, but not easily from a phone, and not everyone knows how to do this. Ballots can be changed, but again not everyone realises this, so a threat by some organisation of "consequences" if they do not email photos of completed ballots from the voting booth can be effective.
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It is touted as a means of protection - to keep bad guys from knowing how you voted and causing you grief because of it - to keep your boss from firing you for not voting for his candidate for example.
The truth is that there are already laws on the books to deal with the sorts of crimes that "the secret ballot" pretends to prevent.
The "secret" ballot merely allows the count to be fudged without consequences. If nobody knows I voted for AAAA then my vote can be counted for BBBB, or CCCC and nobody will be the wiser. This is the purpose of the secret ballot. In other words, "the secret ballot" allows the vote counters to play the election any way they want.
"The Secret Ballot" is not some sacred law handed down by God. It is a trick pony handed down by politicians and businessmen, to insure that voting will not interfere with business as usual.
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The secret ballot allows people to vote according to their consciences without consequences.
In the UK, the secret ballot was introduced by the Ballot Act of 1872; before that it was commonplace for employers and landlords to check how their employees and tenants voted. It was one of the Chartist demands (along with universal male suffrage and others) and was opposed by establishment politicians, landowners and some industrialists, because it would remove their influence over the votes of those in their power.
The secret ballot allows people to vote according to their consciences without consequences.
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But these crimes typically happen 'behind closed doors', in households or among community groups (often, tho' not exclusively, based on ethnicity); or in situations where the victim is economically dependent on the person who wants to improperly influence their vote. In these situations, the victims are not going to be inclined to complain. In any case, questions of legality alone will not prevent people from doing things they are not supposed to. And how do you settle disputes about election results after the fact, if there has been sufficient voter coercion to change the result? Better to prevent it from happening at all, by ensuring that there is no way the landlord/employer/householder/community leader can ever know whether the voter has voted according to instructions.
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So OF COURSE they don't happen behind closed doors.
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Now that's going completely off onto a tangent, as it could apply to practically any law.
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Wisconsin, *facepalm*
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Clueless. I have no idea who my (English) parents voted for and I know that they didn't tell each other. They were not unusual. There are still a lot of people in the UK for whom the ballot box and the historical connotations of being able to vote mean it's sort-of sacred and not to be demeaned. Kind of like religious people and communion or confession.
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another side to this
Of course this has happened before and is generally noted there is 'not enough evidence'
just before an election where that party was expected to do well and firmly put the fox in the hen house the state broadcaster makes it very clear that taking pics of a ballot paper is a no-no.
Illustrated with a pic of a ballot paper.. shown folded being handed to someone - the rules _specifically_ say they have to be unfolded.
The rules older than modern times, but in a few of our more cuturually enriched areas they get bent.
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As noted above, the prohibition on sharing pictures of completed ballots serves a very legitimate purpose: making it harder to buy votes by making it illegal to share proof that you cast the vote you were paid to cast.
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Doesn't appear to have worked this time.
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Not just a UK thing...
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You can be sure that they can provide a detail list of who voted for whom pictures, movies, and recordings of conversations of the voter's sentiments.
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Bullshit journalism of Mr Geigner.
Proper title should be:
"People Manipulating Voting System In The UK Could Receive Jail Time And A Fine"
Note, that this law IS on the books since... like 1983. Well before Al Gore invented Internetz.
Ever noticed that in Canada the media whores are prohibited from declaring election winner in New Foundland before last fellow in Yukon has casted a ballot?
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In Italy voters are actually required to leave their mobile phones outside when going into the polling station to vote, as voter intimidation by Mafia by requiring voters to email completed ballot papers had become such a serious problem.
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Voting is a societal act, not an individual one
Votes in elections are not "private". They are SECRET. SECRET means that proof of how any individual voted should NOT be available, ever, even if the individual wants it to be. Violating this principle does not violate any individual's rights so much as it violates the integrity of the voting process itself.
When you vote, you are making a choice that everyone voting in the same election as you will live under, not just yourself. Voting is intrinsically a SOCIETAL act, not an individual act. It is not a consumer choice, where John who voted Labour lives under Labour rules, and Jane his next-door neighbour who voted Tory lives under Tory rules. When you vote, you vote for laws you want to apply to the entire community. This means that everyone has a direct interest in influencing how everyone else votes, and why improper influence of someone's vote needs to be stamped out. Thus it is illegal, and rightly so, to be a willing participant in a vote-buying scheme, even if it is your own vote that is being bought: by so doing, you are giving someone else improper influence over the election result. And sharing proof of how you voted with someone else is a method of giving other people such undue influence (by proving that you have delivered on a voting promise for which you were paid money, for instance).
There are limits to free speech as you well know. Protecting democracy is one case where free speech may need to be limited.
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On a practical level, ensuring that people cannot bring mobile phones into the voting booth, along with the threat of punishment against those who do photograph their completed ballot paper, is effective as a way of preventing voter coercion involving requirement to email/tweet pictures of completed ballot papers. It is in the interests of the voting stewards to ensure that such crimes are not committed in the voting booth, and they should watch the behaviour of voters and intervene when a voter appears to be photographing a ballot paper. This need not mean prosecution: the steward could just tear up the photographed ballot paper, issue a new one and ask the voter to delete the photograph. In this case it is unlikely that any prosecutions will occur simply because the crime will have been prevented.
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"On a practical level, ensuring that people cannot bring mobile phones into the voting booth, along with the threat of punishment against those who do photograph their completed ballot paper, is effective as a way of preventing voter coercion involving requirement to email/tweet pictures of completed ballot papers."
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A very old and extremely good principle
You are at complete liberty to tell anyone how you voted, what you may not do is attempt to prove it. This is a thoroughly good thing. Representatives of all the candidates can see the ballot boxes all the time from opening of the vote until the end of the count. But no-one is allowed to see what is on any paper until the boxes are opened, this rule is only likely to be strengthened not relaxed.
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Re: A very old and extremely good principle
How about I take a photo of the BLANK ballot paper, then I do my thing with the ballot paper spoiling. I then go away, use the photo to recreate the ballot paper in word, repeat my marking and then tweet a photo of that saying "this is how I voted" I have not published any "information obtained in a polling booth" because I have not used a photo, but I have published something that LOOKS exactly the same. Am I then liable for prosecution?
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In Canada…
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Verifiable vote is not allowed
And if everyone actually signed their ballots, it would make voting into something absolutely useful as then the "tally" could be verified and everyone who voted could insure that their vote was properly counted and not lost or "repaired".
In plain words, it will never be allowed.
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Re: Verifiable vote is not allowed
And anyway, the tally can already be verified, because we are dealing with physical pieces of paper on which people's voting intentions are clear for all to see. Individually, votes cannot be verified (traced to a specific person), and that is a good thing. But collectively, they are completely verifiable, because any fool can see what a mark on a ballot paper means.
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There is no possibility of votes being bought if the buyer cannot know if the voter has delivered, because this renders any such transactions worthless.
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And you obviously know nothing of places like italy (or New Jersey) where the Mafia would be very interested in making you show evidence of your ballot. I'm pretty sure many countries in Africa or Arabia would become very unhealthy for 'honest' voters too.
Honestly, for some people it's really "freedumb" of speech. But hey, your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries, you filthy english kniggit!
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And I'm not English. I'm American.
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Manipulation is no doubt possible, but it would require large-scale collusion between independent individuals, and would be observable.
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All it takes is a lot of money to pay of a few individuals at key points in the process. This is why the most common manipulators are businesses and politicians. One has huge annual profits to draw from and the other simply digs into the tax payer's pocket.
-A sealed box from a district that is normally 80% plus for the enemy candidate is simply lost in transit.
-Sealed Ballot Boxes can be opened and Resealed by the same process that Sealed them originally.
-The counters and their overseers can be bribed, paid, coerced, or even hired to do whatever one needs.
I'm certain that criminals will come up with many far more brilliant methods of getting around any so-called security devised to prevent the ballots from being tampered with.
When it comes to electronic counting there is absolutely nothing to prevent manipulation of the tally and no way to prove manipulation occurred.
The real problem here is that with a SECRET BALLOT, there is no way to know that any of these criminal activities have occurred. Manipulation, even when discovered, cannot actually be proven, since there is no way to account for all the votes in the first place.
A tally is useless unless there is a way to verify the precise counting of every individual ballot to the voting public, and to prove that manipulation has occurred when it does. This is precisely the sort of verification that the Secret Ballot was designed to prevent.
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Fraud involving individual voters (vote buying, coercion) outside designated voting areas is not so easy to detect or prosecute, simply because it can occur anywhere, and there may be no evidence for it (e.g. a verbal nudge-nudge, wink-wink fraud). We can't police all households to ensure that no householders are coercing other members of their household to vote in a particular way, for instance. Therefore, it is much more effective to police the whole process in whcih voting is done, to ensure that it happens in secret and is counted transparently.
As for electronic counting, well of course you're right about that, but in the UK we don't have electronic counting and I absolutely oppose it. I support pen(cil)&paper voting and manual counting because the process is observable and the votes are collectively (but not individually, by intention) verifiable. The secret ballot was invented in the 19th century to PREVENT voter intimidation and bribery. The idea that it was intended to prevent "verification" is utter nonsense.
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Paying off the candidates' counting agents and other independent observers is certainly possible, but I think it is much easier to detect and expose than bribing or blackmailing voters. The latter tends to take place outside the gaze of anyone involved in policing elections, and it may also be informal, meaning there is little or no proof that any fraud has actually taken place. If it has been merely suggested verbally to someone that they might consider voting for X otherwise there would be consequences, what evidence is there of wrongdoing? Bribery of election officials, on the other hand, is very straightforward to detect and prosecute.
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Verifiable vote is not allowed
And remember also that people like big employers, landlords and ethnic community leaders may well be able to control large numbers of voters anyway, without spending much money.
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That means there are laws to deal with those who attempt to do such things - and all it takes to get a company in trouble would be one employee blowing the whistle.
The ONLY way Vote Buying is useful is if hundreds of thousands or millions of people are coerced/paid to vote a specific way, and only if ALL the criminal Vote Buying operations are aiming at electing the same candidate.
And only one disgruntled voter is needed to blow the lid off such an operation.
Where is the fear??
Make these laws nasty - a vote buying/coercing company loses its license and is dissolved, its members disallowed from starting a new business for ten years, after they get out of prison ten years later. Splash their names all over the news and the web so that everyone knows who they are and how they operate. These people are after all doing the whole nation a disservice, weakening the entire country.
The members of any non-corporate vote buying operation receive ten years in prison and a 250,000.00 fine, with no parole.
That should be enough to allow even totally paranoid Secret Vote enthusiasts (who are not just political/corporate shills) to relax their sphincters a bit.
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And no, voter fraud does not need to involve "hundreds of thousands or millions of people". It almost certainly needs many fewer, depending on the closeness of the contest. It may need only a few dozen. It's not all the votes across the entire election that matter, only the few swing votes that make a difference between one candidate and another winning. Consider the 'hanging chad' controversy. I recall there were only a few hundred votes in contention there, but this tiny fraction of the total vote made the difference between Gore and Bush winning.
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Good grief man. If the crooks know in advance that they only need 12 votes to swing the race, then the crooks already have the election itself rigged or they would have no way to know such a thing.
Your logic is circular. There is no way to know with accuracy the "closeness" of a political race, unless you have actually rigged the race and know the results in advance.
To claim that watching the polls and adding up the TV pundit reports will let you know that you only need to fudge 12 votes is probably the silliest fantasy I've read here to date.
You seem to be almost alone in your nearly religious fervor over the vast importance of the secret ballot to produce honest governing, yet this same process is now being adopted by numerous dictator-based nations around the world to placate their abused public, while keeping the same assholes in power.
Methinks ye doth protest too loudly.
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Why? The secret ballot has never prevented any of the things it is purported to prevent. Voter crime is merely the venue of the politician and his corporate owners, who, having no restrictions preventing them from counting the votes as they please, run the elections like a good ad campaign.
There are already a shitload of laws in operation today to deal with all of the crimes currently associated with voter coercion.
All the Secret Ballot does is prevent the voter from verifying that his/her vote was counted properly, exactly as planned.
You seem to think that this Secret Ballot thing is somehow sacred. It was devised and installed by businessmen, not by angels. It was designed specifically to turn every vote into any vote, usable by the counters to either add where they wanted or discard altogether, without consequences, since nobody can verify a votes origin or existence.
As for your "any fool" reference, how many fools get to see the actual collecting and counting in action? Especially now that we have electronic counting - a process that can be manipulated by anyone with a password and access to the counting device, such as the manufacturer of the device, or his politician friends.
How does anyone verify that the counters were not coerced/paid/hired, or in the case of mechanicals, designed to fake the count?
They cannot. Precisely the point of the secret ballot. It makes voting simply a part of business as usual - totally manipulable by the powers that be without consequence. It makes the vote as useless as prayer to the Pink Dragon of Wonderland.
Put a name on the vote and show the tally publicly, and you eliminate the possibility of vote fraud, by letting everyone see exactly where their ballot ended up and doing the count themselves. This will never be allowed, simply because it would make voting a useful tool for the people to choose good government.
In my experience, those who appear to be most adamant about the necessity of the Secret Ballot, always turn out to be those who have the most to lose if the voting/ballot process becomes verifiable.
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You haven't a clue about how and why the Secret Ballot was introduced. Before it, voters were coerced by their employers/landlords to ensure that they voted the "right" way; if they didn't, the next day they could find themselves out of a job or off their land. If you had your way, we would be going back to that state of affairs.
You check for corruption among election workers the same sort of way as you check for corruption anywhere else. this really isn't an issue. And systematic mis-filing of votes is something that ca be identified because the count happens before the eyes of the candidates' observers.
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Your faith in the system is touching, but it is precisely that kind of faith that allows criminals to make their living.
Any area of the system that people "believe" to be secure is exactly the area of the system that criminals will exploit.
You may know a lot about Why and When the Secret Ballot was introduced in your country, but you really know sweet diddly about criminals and the lengths to which they will go for money and power - apparently.
For instance, how much would it take to bribe the people who CHECK THE SEALS for tampering, after they arrive at the counting area??
Oh and by the by, it is no longer 1813.
Times have changed.
People have changed.
Jobs are no longer sacred.
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Who said anything about having "absolute security"? I didn't. Of course there will always be ways the system can be exploited or corrupted, the point about the secret ballot is that there is a limited arena where these problems can happen, so they are relatively easy to investigate when irregularities do occur.
How touching. Clearly in the 21st century we now have Human Race 2.0, in which everyone is enlightened and no-one would ever seek to turn someone out of a job for voting for the wrong candidate, and anyway we don't need jobs as we can all live off the trees and the flowers. Come off it, who's the one with blind faith here? I don't have faith that the voting process will always work, I KNOW there are criminals who would seek to exploit it. I know voter fraud happens, it makes the news, and people get convicted and punished for it. Do you know why this happens? Because the system has checks in place such that it is possible to detect such fraud and identify the source of it. Yet you are saying that modern-day people are so enlightened that they would never seek to use someone's vote against them. Values of society change, but people don't fundamentally change. Before the secret ballot, the practice of using people's votes against them happened BECAUSE IT WAS POSSIBLE. If it becomes possible again, it will start to happen again.
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Enlightened? Wrong candidate? Live off trees and flowers?
OK. I can see this is indeed a religiously adhered-to fanatical belief system you're supporting here, when you start throwing whole buckets of straw-men into the ring.
People are not as easily coerced as they used to be. So many of us now make our livings outside the system through non-traditional means that the old "lost job means death by starvation" syndrome you cling to is no longer sufficient to keeping all people silent.
Of course, this may not be the case in your country, I don't know.
Such things as - the Web - make it easy to report wrong doing by employers, and forensics tends to make your old-style club-wielding brown-shirt tactics a tad over-obvious today.
I can see however that you cannot be convinced to examine your position by either logic or facts, so I will stop bothering you about that which you obviously hold sacred, lest you start accusing me of threatening to harm children and puppies in order to make you say bad things about voting.
May your children live in interesting times.
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EVERYONE is making their living in the "system", however "non-traditional" you think your means are, they still involve interacting with people, maintaining a reputation, and all that stuff. Whether you are a 9-5 cubicle drone, running your own business or freelancing, your ability to get business depends to some extent on what others think of you, so you have to fear if your voting records are posted for all to see.
AGAIN you miss the point that reporting wrong doing after the fact is no substitute from ensuring that it cannot happen. You also ignore my point, stated elsewhere, that improper influence does not need to involve "club-wielding brown-shirt tactics", and such informal pressure on people either is not covered by any law, or otherwise the law against it is likely unenforceable.
Also f*** your naïve techno-idealism. The Web is just as likely to be used as part of a campaign of improper influence of voting (as in the Brendan Eich case) as to "report" it.
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And another thought. Last month the CEO of a major software company was hounded out of his job after about a week because of a donation he had made to a particular political cause some years earlier. I personally am disturbed by campaigns against businesses based on the personal views of their directors (when said views do not affect how the business is run). If we had public voting, then we would start to see campaigns against prominent people (and perhaps even less prominent people) because of how they voted in public elections. Maybe you think it would be desirable to have a campaigns against a new corporate executive because (according to public voting records) he voted UKIP at the last election. However, this is exactly the sort of thing the secret ballot is designed to prevent.
Public voting means that a person's vote may be used against them at any time. It need not be intentional, but whenever it happens, it is wrong. Secret voting means it can never happen.
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Good grief man, has your country no laws??
When did it become legal to start a public or private campaign against any individual because of the way they voted on something political.
Hell, if such activity is legally allowed in your country then you're absolutely right, your country needs a secret ballot - but know this, that your country will then always have shitty government making shitty laws like those because the secret ballot allows shitty government to thrive.
How's that for circular logic eh. :)
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And again, the mere threat of repercussions from voting in a particular way is likely to cause people to modify their vote, regardless of whether said reprecussions are legal or not. I wouldn't go using the argument "but you can get legal redress" around here; not when the issue of patent trolls often comes up, where the legal route of fighting trolls is so expensive that people settle even when they would ultimately win. Besides, the use of the law to punish activity that could easily be prevented from happening (in the sense of being made impossible) in the first place is like abortion as a form of contraception.
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However, I can see that you probably can't, or rather won't, understand how it is wrong that voting should be passed from individuals to groups in this way. Not with your silly conspiracy theory about why the secret ballot was set up, nor with your idealised view of society in which no-one would ever do anything like use someone else's vote against them. So there is little point in continuing this discussion with you.
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Tweeting your vote
we are paid, if you consider about $10/hour "being paid" - and that is for INSPECTORS! Hat tip to the election clerks; they are true patriotic Americans, IMO!) - I am torn. I am sure no laws would mean vote buying, with proof required before payment - not a good thing. But I am glad that people take voting seriously.
I would think a Judge would dismiss a case in the absence of proof of abuse - but requiring them to go to court is, to me, abuse of the citizen.
REAL problem - I would think the authorities would use a little judgement, if the system allows it.
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True tally
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OK, now you've run this horse in a complete circle.
If I sign my vote ballot, then my vote ballot is no longer my own....
I think this conversation has pretty much run aground at this point. You're not even making minimal sense any more.
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Please be advised that the chances of such a voting system ever being introduced, or even considered by any nation on earth is absolutely zero - actually more like -500.
If the vote was capable of creating honest elections, it would be illegal, and the current voting system is favored by all criminals and career politicians as the best way to placate a public while maintaining access to their wealth, so it will never go away.
You have nothing to fear from the idea of a signed vote as it will never ever be allowed to exist by the power that be.
Your Secret Ballot is safe as long as criminals ride the top of the food chain.
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But I do think your conspiracy theories about secret voting absurd; however, as you seem totally committed to them, there is little point in continuing this discussion, which in any case it is doubtful if anyone else is reading, as this thread came off the techdirt front page some days ago.
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LOL. Can you really say that with a straight face? I bet you can't.
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