More Details Emerge Showing The US Government Has No Idea How To Solve A Problem Like Snowden
from the piling-futility-on-futility dept
For all of its surveillance and number-crunching powers, the NSA has had little success in dealing with its Snowden problem. It still seems the agency has no idea what Snowden took, with guesses varying wildly over the past several months. Some reports (not the NSA's) have put that number as low as 60,000. The NSA continues to claim the number is over one million, even with its most recent guess revising its first estimates downward.But the number of documents is only part of the problem. Details of the government's inability to apprehend Snowden, as well as its uncertainty as to his current location or activities, continue to surface. Snowden seems to be able to operate in the all-seeing-eye's blind spots, according to officials quoted by Greg Miller at the Washington Post.
The first indication that the government was operating several steps behind Snowden surfaced during his move from Hong Kong to Russia. The plan, such as it were, was to rely on the benevolence of a country whose president often displays a casual antipathy towards the United States.
For weeks, senior officials from the FBI, the CIA, the State Department and other agencies assembled nearly every day in a desperate search for a way to apprehend the former intelligence contractor who had exposed the inner workings of American espionage then fled to Hong Kong before ending up in Moscow.Snowden didn't misstep, but the US did, concentrating its efforts on a flight to Bolivia that the former NSA contractor never boarded. (It also scrambled a rendition jet on the off-chance that Snowden could be seized out in the open.) And even if he had decided to head that direction, there was actually very little the US could have done about it. Forcing the plane to land (as it did with the president of Bolivia's jet) wasn't the problem. This could be done in any allied airspace. The problem was that the country's jurisdiction ended where the plane's cabin began.
Convened by White House homeland security adviser Lisa Monaco, the meetings kept ending at the same impasse: Have everyone make yet another round of appeals to their Russian counterparts and hope that Snowden makes a misstep.
Even if Snowden had been a passenger, officials said, it is unclear how he could have been removed from a Bolivian air force jet whose cabin would ordinarily be regarded as that country’s sovereign domain — especially in Austria, a country that considers itself diplomatically neutral.But what is probably more concerning is the fact that US intelligence seems to have little idea what Snowden's doing, where he's living or anything else. While some officials have made claims that Snowden is now working for Russian intelligence, any actual intelligence is sparse and nearly impossible to verify.
“We would have looked foolish if Snowden had been on that plane sitting there grinning,” said a senior Austrian official. “There would have been nothing we could have done.”
Snowden is facing espionage-related charges, and the FBI has power to conduct wiretaps and enlist the NSA and CIA in its investigative efforts overseas. But even with such help, officials said, the bureau’s reach in Moscow is limited.Further hampering its investigation is the lack of evidence that Snowden is working for a "foreign power" or actively aiding an enemy state. Russia, despite its problems, simply doesn't qualify as a direct opponent of our national security. And so far, nothing obtained has indicated Snowden is now an FSB operative. Without this crucial stipulation, the government can only go so far in its efforts.
“The FBI doesn’t have any capability to operate in Moscow without the collaboration of the FSB,” said a former senior U.S. intelligence official who served in the Russian capital.
Several U.S. officials cited a complication to gathering intelligence on Snowden that could be seen as ironic: the fact that there has been no determination that he is an “agent of a foreign power,” a legal distinction required to make an American citizen a target of espionage overseas.For all the claims that Snowden has done irreparable harm to US security with his leaks, it's kind of surprising that the government can gather so little information on the current situation of its public enemy #1. This also shows that the surveillance state is severely limited without cooperative partners, something countries expressing outrage over expansive data/communication harvesting should take note of.
The government claims Snowden has harmed America, but can't even determine what he took, who he's working with or even where exactly he's currently living. It can't even provide enough evidence of its claims to build a case that would provide it more surveillance options. And yet, it wants to throw Snowden in jail for espionage. That doesn't add up.
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Filed Under: bolivia, cia, ed snowden, fbi, lisa monaco, moscow, nsa, state department, surveillance, us government
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Intelligence... not sure they know what that word means
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Re:
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The real threat
To the USA (and much of the rest of the world), the real threat is actually the NSA.
One of the reasons this NSA got so severely out of hand, is the problem of classification. You should classify as little as possible (and certainly NEVER try to classify the workings of an agency such as the NSA), so as to allow as many people as possible to work without any clearance.
2 Million people with "top security" clearance is just a ridiculous amount. And mind, most of these couldn't really work without it, because some idiot classified the materials they need to do their work with.
The solution is as simple as impossible to get through the bureaucracy: revoke the clearances of about 1.9 Million people, and revoke the classifications of about 99% of all classified material.
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FTFY
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Wait.. what???
"irony" doesn't cover it. We need a new term.
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Re: Wait.. what???
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Re: Wait.. what???
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Re: Wait.. what???
And then suddenly illegally spying on an USA citizen is a hindrance instead of standard operating procedure.
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Re: Wait.. what???
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Re: Re: Wait.. what???
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Snowden
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Re: Snowden
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Prevention is worth a pound of cure?
1. the NSA does not violate the rights of its citizens?
2. Congress doesn't pass unconstitutional laws infringing on citizens rights?
3. the administration doesn't hide illegal government actions from the light of scrutiny?
4. politicians stop lying to citizens about what the government is doing, and how effective those same "doings" have been
5. politicians and the administration stop being yellow backed cowards that see terrorists behind every blade of grass across the world
If they could that, then perhaps they wouldn't be wringing their hands over what to do about the Snowdens that will keep popping up to blow the whistle on them.
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Re: Prevention is worth a pound of cure?
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Re: Prevention is worth a pound of cure?
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Re: Prevention is worth a pound of cure?
All government employees dealing with Top Secret/SCI data pass rigorous background checks BEFORE they get access.
No outside contractors - None.
If an exception has to be made, the outsiders have to pass the same rigorous background check prior to gaining access.
No outside agency is used to conduct background checks - that's one of the things the FBI used to do (I certainly know that my family members and neighbors wondered what the hell was up when the Feds came knocking on their doors asking about me).
If you want to know what your people are doing, put data loggers on their computers, and track their movements within the facility - Track Everyone All The Time!
No classified material leaves the facility, and that means not wasting your time searching the sawdust when it's the wheelbarrow that's being stolen.
You don't bring anything in, and you certainly don't take anything out.
If you're not willing to do those simple things, you shouldn't be in the intelligence business.
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Re: Re: Prevention is worth a pound of cure?
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Of course, it adds up. Like System Of A Down said:
"They're trying to build a prison,
They're trying to build a prison,
They're trying to build a prison, [for you and me to live in]
Another prison system,
Another prison system,
Another prison system. [for you and me]"
The United States isn't becoming a Police State, it's a Prison State.
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This doesn't pass the laugh test
Maybe the FBI on its own can't operate openly in Moscow without Russian approval, but do you honestly believe that the CIA/NSA have zero capabilities in Moscow? Surely the FBI could ask their spook buddies to keep a close eye on Ed?
I think we (and perhaps Moscow counter-intelligence) are getting fed a load of hogwash.
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Re: This doesn't pass the laugh test
Bingo! No "senior U.S. intelligence official" could ever admit to the existence of undercover agents, informants, confederates, and Russian double-agents within Moscow. That doesn't mean they don't exist. If history is any guide, they probably all (still) do.
It's also worth remembering how Israeli whistle-blower Mordechai Vanunu was found, lured, nabbed, and smuggled back to Israel. Vanunu was about the same age as Snowden when he, too, went to the press after leaving his country for good (or so he thought).
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Re: Re: This doesn't pass the laugh test
Arafat's lads shoot up the Munich Olympics, and kill the Israel team members - Mossad hunts down and kills every member of that team.
AQ'ers of whatever stripe attack and burn two U.S. facilities in Benghazi, killing the Ambassador, and aide, and two CIA security contractors, and we (after 21-months) arrest the alleged 'mastermind' and bring him back to the U.S. to stand trial in a civilian court.
Is it any wonder we're not loved nor feared - we're pussies.
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Re: Re: Re: This doesn't pass the laugh test
Believing that it is has created the mess we're in with the NSA and Snowden.
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Here's all the government heads not being able to pinpoint him yet we are to believe that all this spying will prevent terrorist plots. More and more the real idea comes through because of the lack of proof they are able to do what they claim to be able to do. The real idea is that they are afraid that the voters are one day going to wake up and put them all at risk of suffering the voter wrath.
The whole damn mess makes less and less sense unless you view it with the idea of things like the Pentagon is now developing plans for what to do if there is a revolt in this country. There is a reason they are concerned. Coverups aren't working like they used to and the government is running scared.
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If you accept the premise that Snowden continues to cause "irreparable damage" to the USG, then perhaps the real "damage" that Snowden continues to "cause" is the ongoing demonstration that the USG has blind spots and operational limitations when it comes to the locating, retrieval, and/or murder-by-drone of folks who embarrass it.
A secondary area of "irreparable damage" may be the demonstration to the population of the world that a full-blown, global surveillance apparatus is a) not a done deal and b) may not be unavoidable.
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Objection!
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Sniff test
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(I know you don't really consider him a problem, but are instead using the Government's perspective of him)
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Problems like Snowden?
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Re: Problems like Snowden?
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What insanity!
They can't find out what he took, when he took it, and gave to whom.
They can't find him, can't find out anything about him, and then they charge him for doing something wrong.
How can they charge him with anything if they don't know any of the above?
I've always believed that most government employees couldn't get hired at Burger King for the janitor position. This is a prime example.
They get billions of dollars every year to spend. You have to wonder why we bother to say it's even worth the money.
Not to me. Shut it down and send everyone home with a pink slip. This is beyond stupid.
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The worst offense of all
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Re: The worst offense of all
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computer crash
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Nothing up my sleeve.....
Of course that would take thinking beyond the propaganda and rhetoric spewed by the paid apologists and truth-free press.... so I guess the chances that one might think such are pretty slim....
C'est la vie eh.
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Re: Nothing up my sleeve.....
The NSA's primary function is to gather and analyze signal-intelligence and to provide that analysis to the Command Structure to further their understanding as to what threats are present against the U.S. Unfortunately, they've gone far afield, and are trying to do too much.
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Yes they have definitely located the group's US HQ, in Mister Clapper's crapper, but sadly the group had already moved its Brainiac Orgonic Computer System before the Clapper Crap Cops could reach the plunger.
BTW, Resident O'Bummer will be doing a State of the Onion A Dress next week to explain to the general adversary, that it will be necessary to issue personal walking papers to all pre-investigated US citizens over the age of six, so that the Forces of Goodness and Apple Pie can finally track down and put an end to the nefarious deeds of this awful, vile and despicable nemesis of Freedom and the Amerikan Way of Lie. Zig Hile.
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Re: Re: Nothing up my sleeve.....
Matters not one iota what an agency was "founded for", if it is not thereafter being used for that purpose and all its sister agencies - who also were "founded with special unique purposes" are all working together for the same undisclosed secret purposes noted above, or making use of the illegally stolen data gathered by the NSA, CIA or HSA to fulfill their original mandates.
Nor have they "gone too far afield" by the way. It is simply that you, like so many others, actually believed the Brand Name Ads the agencies produced about their apparently unique "purviews", rather than realize that that too was merely propaganda designed to fool the masses.
Even going back only a short distance in history brings us right up against Mr/Mrs Hoover and the then FBI, who used the same systems for exactly the same purposes as listed above.
Let me guess. You think that Snowden is a bad guy and so have refrained from actually reading the information he has exposed, because you're a patriot.
I cannot imagine how else you can have reached this date unaware of what has transpired.
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Questions to Radio Pentagon
A: In principle yes, but it hasn't been for offending Mr. Clapper but for revealing a military secret.
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