University of Oregon Slaps Student With Five Conduct Charges Over Four Words
from the UO:-because-the-world-needs-a-higher-grade-of-whiner dept
Ah, college. The embodiment of the open exchange of opinions and ideas, where today's youth go expand not only their horizons but their worldview. In this hopelessly idealistic portrayal, today's teens would grow into adults ready to face a world that isn't nearly as pleasant as previously indicated.
In reality, many colleges are helicopter parents who believe the right to never be offended is guaranteed by the Constitution or, failing that, by a set of restrictive policies paired with disproportionate penalties.
In reality, four words can get you five conduct charges.
Here are the four words:
On June 9, 2014, the female student in question was visiting with friends in UO’s Carson Hall dormitory. According to the student, looking out of the dormitory window, she spotted a male and female student walking together (she did not know either of them) and shouted “I hit it first” at them in jest. The female of the couple responded with two profanities…That's the free exchange of ideas and opinions on display there. One student jokingly suggesting she had sexual relations with a member of the couple (male/female not specified by "it") and one student responding with profanities. Case should have been closed right there, what with each party getting their verbal jabs in. But note the ellipsis above…
… and the couple reported the student’s comment to the Resident Assistant of the dorm.So, at this point a third party has been dragged in because apparently the couple didn't feel the shouted profanities properly redressed their (minor, fleeting) grievance. So, the Resident Assistant did some assisting.
The Resident Assistant located the student and insisted that she apologize to the couple for her remark. The student readily obliged.Case closed.
No, wait. Five conduct charges. FIVE CONDUCT CHARGES. The aggrieved couple, having shouted out profanities and having acquired an apology still felt this student's offhand remark hadn't been properly addressed. So, up the ladder they went. Thanks to the school's inability to laugh the angry couple of the office, the joking student was hit with five conduct charges:
Unreasonable noise/community disruptionThe student was given two options: face an "administrative panel" whose decision would be final and unable to be appealed (but suspension or expulsion not an option) or face a Student Conduct Panel, which would leave room for appeal but put suspension/expulsion back on the table.
Violation of the university housing contract
Harassment
Disrupting university [sic]
Disorderly conduct
The administration's "bright line" for determining guilt is (I AM NOT KIDDING) whether the incident "more likely than not" occurred. Any discussion about whether the shouted joke "more likely than not" should have resulted in having the book thrown at the student apparently isn't up for discussion.
If either panel finds the student "more likely than not" guilty of making an offensive, one-line joke, she pays the administrative fees and deals with whatever punishment is decided. If declared "more likely than not" not guilty, no one pays anything, not even the couple whose existence was rendered ghastly and nightmarish by a couple of seconds of careless window shouting nearly three months ago.
FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights in Education) has responded to this overblown reaction.
FIRE wrote to UO President Michael Gottfredson on August 1, demanding that the charges against the student be dropped. FIRE also called on UO to revise its unconstitutional speech codes—in particular, the harassment policy under which it charged the student. That policy contains unconstitutionally broad and vague prohibitions on “[u]nreasonable insults,” “gestures,” and “abusive words” that may cause “emotional distress” to others, subjecting UO students to punishment for any expression deemed subjectively distressing.The college has responded with:
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Filed Under: conduct charges, free speech, insults, jokes
Companies: university of oregon
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Not a chance. Among their friends, they're beaming with self-righteous satisfaction.
After all, people who offend them clearly have no right to even BE there. It's upsetting to the precious little flowers. We're just glad the couple was brave enough to recognize their clear civic duty to bring this attack to the proper authorities.
Gag.
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Wow
Don't make sexually loaded comments to people, and certainly don't yell it across the university courtyard.
The rest of your post is making excuses for bad behavior, and holding the university to task for having the attachments to have rules and actually enforce them.
Free speech does not mean unlimited speech.
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Re: Wow
Also, profanity in reply to said sexually loaded comment was also against the universities policies, and not a factor of free speed. Said participant should be facing at least four charges, not limited to
Unreasonable noise/community disruption
Harassment
Disrupting university [sic olol]
Disorderly conduct
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Re: Re: Wow
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
However, I bet the university has an anti-retaliation clause which means that whoever files first cannot have a report made against them by the other person, and if they try they'll be further penalised.
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Re: Wow
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Re: Re: Wow
Was the behavior childish? Sure enough. If the university ignored it (after a complaint) they would just be condoning and encouraging it. They didn't have to go as far as they did in punishing it, but honestly they can let it slide either.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
They didn't ignore it. An apology was requested, which was given, and the couple in question had arguably already retaliated in a more offensive way. The matter was settled before they decided to push it any further.
But, poor little snowflakes had their feelings hurt, and since they're not in the real world yet they can waste time and resources on such trivialities. I can only imagine the fear that reality will generate once they realise that people outside their bubble might be able to say worse with no repercussions.
Well, either that or there's a long history of bad blood between these people and the couple simply have no qualms about such waste, since they face no repercussions themselves and some fools working for the university have the same "rule are rules" mentality that you support regardless of proportionality. Despite your doomsday approach, there's no reason this is a proper response. You have to lose all sense of proportion to even consider it correct.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
AFAIK the first amendment only protects you from the government stifling your speech. Private institutions are legally able to restrict your speech on their property
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
At my University, they had few rules. Nearly everything came down to, "is it illegal". If shouting at night was illegal because of city noise ordinances, then someone could complain, otherwise, shove off.
The only real exceptions to this was during finals. During those few weeks, they were quite strict about being disruptive or noisy.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
Um, except "University of Oregon" is a state university, bound by the First Amendment. Good lord, you clearly didn't even read any of the background materials, and who on earth doesn't know that there are such things as public universities? How do some of you people function in the real world?
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huh, thanks for clearing that up, whatevs...
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
1) Student yells stupid thing out window
2) Students being yelled at yell back stupid thing
...it really should stop there, but...
3) Students being yelled at complain to the University
4) Students being yelled at are immediately enrolled in mandatory class to teach Constitutional Amendments
When I was growing up, offensive speech was EXACTLY WHAT THE FIRST AMENDMENT HAD IN MIND. Unoffensive speech doesn't need protection. Where did that go?
Our universities are supposed to be teaching our youth HOW TO COMMUNICATE. How about we start by teaching them that while some people may not like what we say, it is important that we have the right to say it.
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Any institution that receives no taxpayer dollars is free to ignore the Bill of Rights all it wants. I don't think a land grant university meets that definition.
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BaDa Boom
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Re: Wow
If I had been put to task with any of the number of things I shouted whilst at Uni I would have been expelled long before I graduated.
And that is over here in the UK where we don't have free speech enshrined in our constitution (we do have a sensor of humour though).
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Re: Wow
So you are of the opinion that people are free to agree with whoever is in authority, and all other thoughts and words are banned. That is a tyrants definition of free.
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Re: Re: Wow
No troll, I didn't say that. I agree that the university needs to have rules (especially in regards to comments of a sexual nature) and they need to deal with them evenly.
There is no restriction on legal and sane free speech. Only an idiot would conclude that.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
As soon as you divide speech into legal and illegal speech, you are restricting speech, and it is therefore no longer free. That said, what someone say can be used in evidence against them when they are accused of a crime, such as inciting violence. However, banning speech that someone may find offensive is a direct attack on free speech.
Which is some authority defining what people are free to say.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
The definition of "troll" is not "someone who disagrees with me". Your grasp of the rest of the issues is usually as firm as your grasp of this word.
"There is no restriction on legal and sane free speech. Only an idiot would conclude that."
Who defines "sane" and "legal"? When those boundaries are set, how is this not a restriction, especially if your own definition differs?
Your history of whining whenever someone correctly calls you an idiot, yet clearly having no problem doing the same to others, indicates that you don't really have well defined boundaries in mind yourself.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow
The definition of "troll" is not "someone who disagrees with me". Your grasp of the rest of the issues is usually as firm as your grasp of this word.
Definition of troll in this case is someone misrepresenting what I said in order to pick a fight. You know that, which is why I generally don't answer you anymore.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
So your saying any comment of a sexual nature is off limits?
Wanna come back to my place?
Your hot!
You must be exhausted, you've been running around in my head all day!
Nice body!
Wanna #u©&?
I'd tap that!
Did you bring a condom?
What's next? Ban speech on religion, politics and family values.
Here is what you miss. We have and should encourage free speech, it encourages the free exchange of ides which is beneficial to society. People can and will say things that offend you, get over it. Your comment against free speech offended me so by your standards you should be disciplined.
Yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater, yes inducing public panic where people could be harmed is wrong.
Yelling 'I hit it first' is harmless and could easily be shrugged off.
Guess too many people today are pansy ass pussies that can't take a joke and run home to their helicopter mommy and cry like babies.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow
Untrue defamatory speech can have real negative consequences, including financial and is NOT protected speech.
(But I still think that after an apology--which presumably included an admission that it wasn't true and was just an ill-conceived joke--that the matter was clearly settled.)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow
Pretty much, yes.
"What if it ruins their happiness and destroys their relationship? What if they call off a wedding that was costing $30,000 because she thinks he cheated (which was based on a lie)?"
If the relationship can be destroyed that easily, then that relationship was already broken and doomed. The "harm" was not created by the comment at all. In your scenario, he should be grateful that this was discovered earlier rather than later.
"Untrue defamatory speech can have real negative consequences, including financial and is NOT protected speech."
True. But this is not a case of that. It was clearly and obviously a joke, not a serious statement of fact.
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She's not being charged with defamation.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
Yes, troll, you did.
You said "Don't make sexually loaded comments to people, and certainly don't yell it across the university courtyard."
Which loosely translates to "don't use speech with which the authorities disagree."
> I agree that the university needs to have rules (especially in regards to comments of a sexual nature) and they need to deal with them evenly.
Remind me where "sane" speech is somewhere codified?
Do I get to define sane? Because if so, everything you say being insane, you're violating that rule. If not, who does? This isn't fire in a crowded theater or even a close case.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
"There is no restriction on legal and sane free speech."
The entire point of freedom of speech is that laws cannot be passed (by the government) to dictate what can or cannot be said.
Therefore there will not ever be *legal* free speech.
And the young lady's sanity was not ever in question.
How about we stop trying to legislate and regulate people's interpersonal behavior where neither party is actually injured?
At what point does is this type of regulation really actually something the university should do?
Do you think that you should wear a microphone so that people can hear what you say all day long and monitor your speech so that you don't offend some lily livered lefty with an offhand comment?
Do you really think that this is any type of commentary on modern society ***except for some self righteous wankers smacking someone with the university for making a joke?
honestly if you think this bureaucracy has the right to police the speech of the students at the university you are missing the entire concept that this country is founded upon.
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Re: Wow
Free speech does not mean unlimited speech.
Actually yes. If the speech incurs in criminal issues then the courts are to decide it. I'm waiting for her to be fully prosecuted for her crimes.
Asshole.
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Re: Wow
Yeah, you really should stop making excuses for cops shooting civilians holding walking sticks and video game controllers.
Oh, that's not what you're talking about?
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Re: Wow
1) Yes, this is inappropriate behavior, but the punishment should fit the crime. As a one time incident, a warning and an apology really ought to be enough action for something like this.
2) The other party responded to the remark in kind and is receiving no similar punishment. Really, they should both have been asked to apologize to each other and the matter subsequently dropped.
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Re: Re: Wow
Bulls**t. This is not inappropriate behavior, this is speech and in this country we should be able to say anything to anyone without an authority getting involved.
I have the right to say what I want and you have the right to say you disagree.
Really, they should both have been asked to apologize
Really, everyone involved EXCEPT the girl that yelled out the window should be forced to sit through a class that covers the first amendment. This is a PUBLIC UNIVERSITY. There should be no reason to have any restricted speech on campus - and they should be teaching the students why that is important.
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Re: Re: Re: Wow
Certainly true, but that has no bearing on whether it was inappropriate. Inappropriate speech is protected speech in this country.
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Re: Wow
Can you point out the part where the author excused the behavior?
holding the university to task for having the attachments to have rules and actually enforce them.
Do you suppose the university enforces these rules every time someone shouts something inappropriate?
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Re: Wow
I have a child who attends the University of Oregon, and keep up on what's happening there. And this is actually a reasonably small misstep compared to others the U of O administration has been engaging in over the last year or so.
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Re: Wow
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Re: Wow
Seems like a random phrase whose meaning is in the eye of the receiver.
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Re: Re: Wow
The comment was "I hit it first". To "hit it" is slang for having sex with someone (in particular I'm sure you can get a plethora of results searching for "I'd hit that"). So she was saying "I had sex with that person first".
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Re: Wow
Grow Up!
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Somebody Certainly Missed the Point...
Basic question: do we really have more to fear from the occasional exhibition of verbal poor taste, instead of from large and powerful public bureaucracies who assume the authority to circumvent the Constitution, step all over due process, and ruin lives, all of which is based at least partly on money essentially taken from parents at gun point?
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Re: Wow
Yes, actually. It does.
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Re: Wow
It's a brave new world you're advocating, all right.
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Holy shit Batman...
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in favor of rigid rules.
College is where you grow,up, mature, and learn to express
your adult self.
IT seems to me the land of the free is not free ,
more like the land of ever expanding rules an regulations,
which reduce free speech and human rights and serve as a
chilling effect on normal human behavior .
AND give the police more and more powers
coupled with large scale online surveillance .
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/s
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Suggestion for the students of Oregon university
It's always distressing to witness how absurd totalitarism roots into our society.
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It's much easier to throw the book at someone over a snarky halfass comment that nobody cares about than to deal with the fact that the frat two blocks off campus is systematically raping women on a regular basis.
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AIUI it comes from an insane misreading of part of the sexual equality legislation, which requires universities provide counselling and related services for victims if it is more likely than not that they were victimised, and misinterpreting that to mean that they have to apply the same standard of evidence to punishing the supposed offender (they don't, except they can't make him pay unless he's found guilty). Then, just to make sure they come up with the right result, some give special education to the members of the panel to tell them that any attempt at defending themselves is a sign of guilt and non-remorse, refuse to allow the accused to have any legal counsel (or even some kind of internal advocate/adviser), prevent the accused cross-examining the accuser or any witnesses, and even prevent the accused presenting any witnesses.
Surely rapes two blocks off campus is a matter for the local police, who presumably have access to things like rape kits and forensic analysis, not to mention something which at least approximates a real detective and some understanding of the concept of criminal justice, and real courts with the power to issue gaol sentences?
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If you think rape on college campuses is not a major problem, then you are not aware of what's happening. If you think victims are always taken seriously and appropriate investigations are always conducted, then you are not aware of what's happening.
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* Rape on college campuses is not a major problem.
* Victims are always taken seriously.
* Appropriate investigations are always conducted.
Pretty sure I didn't say any of those. But claiming that "rape is OK!" in college is a gross misstatement of the facts,
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Accusations of rape on college campuses are too often not investigated appropriately.
That include rapes that actually happened but don't get investigated and false accusations that get people tossed out of school without an investigation.
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That include rapes that actually happened but don't get investigated and false accusations that get people tossed out of school without an investigation.
Right, both situations happen, probably at the same schools.
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[1] It has been claimed, although I'm not sure if anyone as presented actual evidence of this, that some universities official policy if that if two students (both over 21) have drunk any amount of alcohol no matter how small, even if they did so completely willingly, and have sex (consensually), then the man is guilty of sexual misconduct but the woman is not.
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Which of course does not imply that they do not also overlook rapes that did happen.
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=P
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"More likely than not occurred"
The point lost on this so called institution is the money they recieve comes from tutition from the very people they are trying to indoctrinate into some kind uptopian fanatsy world.
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This is where the group of Internet users
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Blaming the parents?
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Re: Blaming the parents?
You mean this? "In reality, many colleges are helicopter parents" I think you misunderstand. He is accusing colleges of behaving like helicopter parents. Unless you mean it's inappropriate to even make reference to the fact that there is such a thing as helicopter parents, in which case I don't know where you're coming from.
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Re: Blaming the parents?
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Free Speech
Failure to comply will result in removal of said Right.
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Arrrrrgh!
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Re: Arrrrrgh!
The appropriate response would have been nothing at all. Your suggestion tells the taunter they hit a nerve - why give them such satisfaction?
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The nation state of UO?
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The Limits of Disorderly Conduct
This is a case about insults. "Breach of the peace" (Disorderly conduct, etc.), as lawyers use the term, refers to acts of violence, or acts immediately likely to immediately provoke, incite, involve, or trigger acts of violence, or acts which might reasonably put someone in fear of violence. Peace is defined as the state of not fighting. I am rather doubtful about the application of Breach of the Peace, or Disorderly Conduct, to insults offered under circumstances which practically prevent the parties from coming to grips with each other. The extreme case of this is one anonymous coward in one country insulting another anonymous coward in another country over the internet. The boundary of verbal breach of the peace is defined by cases like Brandenburg vs. Ohio (1969), and this must be adapted to reflect actual distance between the parties.
Now, an insult delivered by stealth, or parthian-shot-fashion in a fugitive state (eg. screamed from a passing car, or from a window of a building) cannot reasonably communicate fear, outside of narrow limits, because the manner of its delivery reveals the insulter's own fear. The medium is the message, to quote McLuhan. When someone screams an insult at me from a passing car, I may be annoyed, but on reflection, the party is not _man_ enough to get out of his car and say what he said, face to face, and his opinion may be disregarded. Intimidation must stand its ground, or else it admits that its commitment is confined to acts which can be carried out by stealth.
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http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2014/07/vulgar_university_of_oregon_po.html
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The charges
"Unreasonable noise/community disruption"
For four words? Not unless she used a loudspeaker. Also, just to be clear, this part is a housing contract violation, which leads us to the next section:
"Violation of the university housing contract"
The portion of the contract that they cited in their letter to the student said that the university housing policy applies to guests and that residents are responsible for guest conduct. Maybe because she was visiting the dorm at the time? But the person who violated this section would be whoever invited her to the dorm, and not the student who shouted. To list this as a separate violation is laughable. This is just double-charging.
"Harassment"
Doing something once is not harassment. If she shouted this every day, it might rise to that level. It would also be a stretch to say that the comment was because of the couple's gender or sexual orientation.
"Disrupting university"
Oh, right, I'm sure this one comment, shouted from a dorm (and not a classroom), disrupted the entire learning environment of the university.
"Disorderly conduct"
What you charge someone with when you just don't think you have enough charges yet.
And here is another big problem. Every offense, no matter how minor, carries a punishment anywhere from reprimand to expulsion. The student will probably not be expelled even if she selects the Student Conduct Panel, but why is expulsion even on the table? (And what kind of a screwed-up system leaves the *student* with the option of whether expulsion is on the table?)
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Re: The charges
One that has observed how the DOJ operates, decide on a punishment, and pile on charges to force the victim, sorry accused, to agree to the chosen punishment or risk an even greater punishment.
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Cover your butt
In a rational world, this kind of case wouldn't get very far, but if the couple got a good lawyer (meaning one who wanted to get money from the school), then the university would have to spend money just to defend itself. So now the university charges the student to prove they have some kind of "zero tolerance" policy so they won't get sued.
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Re: Cover your butt
True, but they ALSO might get a lawsuit from the student whose rights they violated. And that one might actually WIN, in which case they're paying not just their lawyers but a judgement.
Sometimes, when you have the urge to cover your butt, you might want to first make sure that you aren't UNcovering your front.
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Re: Cover your butt
Their pov seems to be that a jack booted knee jerk response is entirely appropriate for any and all circumstances, unless they decide to do nothing because it involves some football players.
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F*** her, I did!
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Carson Hall is where...
Sheesh, what a sad commentary on how far that campus has fallen.
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How Smart Universities Handle Such Events
He said an RA had reported me for XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I admitted the behavior, as I had done it, explained that I had no idea I was breaking a rule at the time I did it, and that I would not do so again if I could possibly avoid doing so.
I got a form letter mailed to me that noted my transgression of University rules, which included the wonderful line "If such behavior is repeated, further measures will be taken." End of story.
My misbehavior was noted and corrected, no permanent record of a transgression entered my academic file, essentially zero cost was experienced by university, and I learned another way to deal with minor rule violators, which I have used repeatedly in the real world.
When did universities lose their frikkin' minds?
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What's the problem?
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Hyperbole Much?
A look to the student conduct code reveals that this isn't an elective decision by the UO to pursue this complaint - to keep objectivity in the conduct process every complaint against a student results in the UO sending the same type of letter to the accused. This is simply the mandatory notice given to the accused when a complaint is filed.
"OAR 571-021-0200
...
(2) Notice. Upon receiving a complaint or notice that a Student may have violated the Student Conduct Code, the Director of Student Conduct and Community Standards shall serve a written notice upon the Student, either by electronic mail or by mailing to the latest address of the Student on file at the Office of the Registrar of the University, or, if necessary, by registered or certified mail or by personal service. Such notice shall inform the student of:
(a) The alleged Code violation;
(b) The opportunity for the student to meet with the Director for purposes of discussing the options for disposition of the case;
(c)The Student’s right to assistance. At an administrative conference with the Director, or a hearing by a Hearings Panel or before the Appeals Board, a Student may, but need not represent his or her own interests, or be assisted by someone including but not limited to one of the following representatives:
(A) The Office of Student Advocacy;
(B) Another Student;
(C) A member of the faculty or administration;
(D) A member of the Oregon Bar.
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This letter is the mandatory first step in the process of dealing with some easily offended and vindictive students' complaint. Let's not get our panties in a bunch and start with the liberal college campuses destroying free speech - just yet.
** I was a panel member on the board that hears student conduct complaints at the UO and there is zero chance in actuality that the accused student will be suspended, expelled, or have a negative notation as a result of this incident. The panels I sat on always heavily considered an accused student's rights. Many complaints resulted in dismissal or finding a violation (for "actual incidents") but with limited (write a paper) or no sanctions. **
While "more likely than not" is a low standard, the definition for each conduct code violation (which often include their own standards like "unreasonable") contain limitations and qualifiers that make the "offended" students' complaint highly unlikely to succeed.
Read the student conduct code for yourself:
http://uodos.uoregon.edu/StudentConductandCommunityStandards/StudentConductCode.aspx#Conduc t_Procedures
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Re: Hyperbole Much?
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Re: Hyperbole Much?
I don't see how that helps. The problem isn't that UO didn't follow their procedures correctly, the problem is that they have policies that appear to prohibit 1st Amendment protected activities.
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Wait, what?
And there's me thinking that a charge of harassment requires a course of conduct rather than a single incident.
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