UK Plans To Do Away With Free Speech... In The Name Of Free Speech
from the as-expected... dept
Last fall, we noted that UK Home Secretary Theresa May had made it clear that if her Conservative Party were re-elected, one of the first orders of business would be a new "Extremist Disruption Orders" plan that would outlaw any speech or events that the government declared "extremist." She wasn't kidding around. Following last week's election in the UK, David Cameron appears to be announcing just such a plan to basically wipe out anything resembling free expression in the UK (and, yes, I know, the UK doesn't view free expression in the same way as the US does, and there's nothing like the First Amendment there -- you don't have to point that out in the comments). The broad-reaching plans seem absolutely insane:The orders, the product of an extremism task force set up by the prime minister, were proposed during the last parliament in March, but were largely vetoed by the Liberal Democrats on the grounds of free speech. They were subsequently revived in the Conservative manifesto."A risk of harassment"? "Alarm or distress"? That could include just about anything. A "threat to the functioning of democracy"? Does that include public protests or arguing against the current leadership? The likelihood of abuse seems absolutely, astoundingly, massive.
The measures would give the police powers to apply to the high court for an order to limit the “harmful activities” of an extremist individual. The definition of harmful is to include a risk of public disorder, a risk of harassment, alarm or distress or creating a “threat to the functioning of democracy”.
They would include a ban on broadcasting and a requirement to submit to the police in advance any proposed publication on the web and social media or in print. The bill will also contain plans for banning orders for extremist organisations which seek to undermine democracy or use hate speech in public places, but it will fall short of banning on the grounds of provoking hatred.Yes, that's right. If you wanted to tweet something that creates "distress," you'd have to first submit it to the police to get their okay.
Oh, and here's the really insane part. David Cameron is claiming that he's doing this in the name of free speech. No joke:
“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone. It’s often meant we have stood neutral between different values. And that’s helped foster a narrative of extremism and grievance.Did you hear that? That's the sound of actual free speech supporters having their collective jaws hit the floor. Here he is, saying that for too long we've been "tolerant" of free expression, and thus we have to ban it, in support of "free speech" and democracy. And he flat out admits that they no longer think "obeying the law" should keep you out of trouble. That's some incredibly Orwellian bullshit right there.
“This government will conclusively turn the page on this failed approach. As the party of one nation, we will govern as one nation and bring our country together. That means actively promoting certain values.
“Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights regardless of race, gender or sexuality.
“We must say to our citizens: this is what defines us as a society.”
As Glenn Greenwald rightly notes, once again it appears that the biggest threat to free speech is not from terrorism, but from those claiming to fight terrorism. He also points us to a video of Theresa May going on and on about how this is about "promoting British values" and stopping those who "look to divide our society." So, they don't want to "divide" society... and they're going to do that by telling everyone they can only have views that the government finds acceptable.
In short, the current UK government is promoting an out and out war on free expression, by saying you can only have free expression if you spout government approved thoughts.
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Filed Under: david cameron, extremism, free expression, free speech, theresa may, uk
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Welcome to the new Dark Ages. In the UK at least.
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Re:
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Isn't this the plot behind V for Vendetta?
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Re: Isn't this the plot behind V for Vendetta?
Unity Through Overly-Broad, Poorly-Written Laws.
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This is a bad thing?
So now obeying the law isn't enough? What's the point of having laws at all, then?
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Re: This is a bad thing?
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Re: Re: This is a bad thing?
I can't help but go straight for the Godwin on this (and tie in the bulk records retention ridiculousness that's been going on). Try these quotes on for size:
"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."
"The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
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Re: Re: Re: This is a bad thing?
I live here, damn it, and I don't like the way things are going.
To all Tory voters: don't get to thinking you're on the right side of the police state. Anyone could fall foul of it at any time.
To all Labour supporters: your Glorious Leader Blair started this, so shut up!
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Aint freedom fucking grande
Fucking hypocrates and bloody sychopaths that they are........."replaced" a monarchy with another bloody monarchy
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The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
I doubt the founding fathers envisioned the Constitution and Bill of Rights applying to the use of telephones. Isn't it great how new discoveries can exist without having to write a new constitution?
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Re: Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
I disagree. I think that they envisioned the Constitution as applying to everything the government does. They did not envision the principles laid out as being tied to specific technologies.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
I suspect the founding fathers never envisioned that "things" would be charged with crimes, either. My stack of 99 $100 bills, confiscated by the DEA on suspicion of being in a drug transaction, or by the IRS on suspicion of being used in "structuring", is hardly comforted by your statement.
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Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
Jefferson (a slave owner himself) among others predicted that it would lead to major conflict down the road. They were right. But at the cost of 600,000 lives slavery was ended and the nation was held together.
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Re: The US Constitution is amazing
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Re: Re: The US Constitution is amazing
In the UK, the "solution" for ASBOs was that an ASBO wasn't a punishment. I suspect the same argument will be used here. (Remember that the UK's constitution does almost nothing to protect the people from Parliament, only Parliament from the Queen.)
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These plans are, without question, a threat to the functioning of democracy.
Everyone involved should be jailed immediately.
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Quit clicking "report" to hide comments when you just simply don't like the ideas expressed.
Because censoring ideas is the essence of censorship. You kids don't have any ground to stand on against government when you sneakily censor here and make up excuses.
Self-proving example! You kids don't like this idea nor being called "kids" so you'll censor this!
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We hit report when a comment is rude or trollish, not to censor its ideas. At any rate, that sort of 'censorship' is pretty ineffective, as one can easily unhide the comment. If it was truly censored, it would be disappeared forever (not that most of your comments don't deserve such a fate), not merely collapsed.
Also, this comment is clearly a troll and calling us kids is rude, so I reported your comment. So there. You're still free to express your opinions though, and still free to make an ass of yourself.
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How insightful. Please, tell me more.
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Techdirt, for better or for worse, is a very democratic environment. Sometimes I wish the staff here would actually start punishing trolls and keep the community clean via deleting comments, IP bans, and other such things, but on the other hand, the present system does seem to work because it provides commenters all the rope they want for hanging themselves.
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Re: Re: "keep the community clean" -- You're for purity, eh?
NEWS FOR THOSE TAKEN IN BY TECHDIRT: ALREADY DOES. this little censor HAS HIS WISH.
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Re: Re: Re: "keep the community clean" -- You're for purity, eh?
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Re: Re: Re: "keep the community clean" -- You're for purity, eh?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: "keep the community clean" -- You're for purity, eh?
Eventually they did land on the Moon, but funny enough it was faked to delay the Russians and give them more time.
Kind of funny eh how sometimes the things previously claimed to be crackpot theories tend to become actual reality when enough secrets get leaked.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "keep the community clean" -- You're for purity, eh?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "keep the community clean" -- You're for purity, eh?
That's hilarious. And here I thought you were being SERIOUS about all the other stuff you posted here. Thanks for the laugh!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "keep the community clean" -- You're for purity, eh?
That's hilarious. And here I thought you were being SERIOUS about all the other stuff you posted here. Thanks for the laugh!
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Trick question! It doesn’t represent any of them. This explains why Mr. Masnick or whoever monitors the comments around here can do whatever they feel necessary to retain a sense of decorum around here without running afoul of the law: no such action represents censorship.
If you comment gets hidden under a “reported” flag, that doesn’t make your comment go away permanently. (And if you whine about the single click it takes to make your comment visible, anyone who calls you “lazy” has a point.) The hiding of your comment won’t rescind your right to reprint that comment anywhere else on the Internet. And Techdirt has no legal obligation, in any jurisdiction, to keep your comment “unhidden”.
You have a right to your opinion, even if you didn’t do the work necessary to hold it, but everyone else has the right to ignore it. Someone who ignores you or hides your comments has not censored you; they’ve simply decided that your opinion has no merit. If you proclaim dissent and the ignoring of bad opinions/ideas as “censorship”, you insult those who have actually had their opinions/ideas censored—those who cannot speak but for the actions of a government (or even a violent mob) that would punish them for speaking.
You have a voice. Try using it for something worth a damn.
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My opinion is just as valid as yours. If our opinions do not agree, it is not "censorship" to state (report) such.
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I am unsure how you claim they 'sneakily' censor, as they announce the comment has been flagged, its quite clear that others have responded to the comment, and viola, I am responding to your flagged comment. Also, the flagging doesn't work on Techdirt lite (the mobile version). So those readers get you in your full glory.
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It's not that we don't like your "ideas", they're simply that stupid and obnoxious we're trying to protect others from letting you wilfully derail discussions.
And now quit the whining, already.
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Au contraire. All that calling people "kids" as an insult does is prove that you're on the fast track to irrelevance, death and oblivion. Have a nice day. :)
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Brief memo to the British government
Sincerely,
George Orwell
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Re: Brief memo to the British government
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Re: Re: Brief memo to the British government
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Response to: Nastybutler77 on May 13th, 2015 @ 12:03pm
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Re: Get What We Deserve
Doesn't matter anyway, the system needs to be shaken up from time to time. Better now than later. Time to burn it all to the ground.
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Re: Re: Get What We Deserve
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Re: British citizens get what they deserve.
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Why the surprise?
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Re: Why the surprise?
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If only
Ooops, I think I hear the police at the door for dissing the government!
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Re: If only
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Policing by Consent
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Re: Policing by Consent
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Re: Policing by Consent
I mean, I can see the potential to make it hard to address police overreach when criticism is met with jail time because it risks raising an alarm. Don't you?
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Re: Policing by Consent
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Re: Policing by Consent
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Re: Policing by Consent
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Re: Policing by Consent
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Re: Policing by Consent
I love it when non-US citizens or residents attempt to explain how America works to Americans - but highly resent it when Americans offer opinions about how their country works.
American police do not act by decree. What they can and cannot do is as constrained by the Constitution and by law as any other American. And while there have been a few cases that have been very highly publicized by a hostile media as reputedly being murder, subsequent court action based on evidence and testimony generally reveals that the police did not in fact murder.
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Orwell Was Incomplete
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
He left out: Censorship is Freedom of Speech
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If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
Quit clicking "report" to hide comments when you just simply don't like the ideas expressed.
Because censoring ideas is the essence of censorship. You kids don't have any ground to stand on against government when you sneakily censor here and make up excuses.
Self-proving example! You kids don't like this idea nor being called "kids" so you'll censor this!
[ They like clicking "report" and I like what that shows about Techdirt, so it's win-win.]
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Re: If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
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Re: Re: If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
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Re: If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
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Re: If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
So…how has Techdirt suppressed your right to express yourself freely, again? Because I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word “censorship”. If anything, you seem to want the concept weakened so no one can ever disagree with you or delete/hide/ignore your comments without being called a “censor”.
If anything, your attempts to stifle discussion by labelling others as “censors” seems like more of a move towards censorship than Techdirt hiding your comments.
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Re: Re: If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
This in spite of the fact that a hidden comment can be read with a single click, but a seized site or blocked account is freakin' gone. Apparently it's only censorship when it happens to them.
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Re: If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
QED.
*clicks report*
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Countdown
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People do not learn from history. If you want to do something unpopular you phrase it in a way that suggests its the complete opposite of what you will do.
To do the old standby. Have fun telling your great grandparents and grandparents that fascism won in the end.
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this guy sounds like hitler on speed
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Right, ill be back after my mandatory amount of prison time for that bit of "extremism"
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It's not "abuse" if that's the (secret) intent of the law right from the start.
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Even Richard the 8th
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And of course all CENSORED yet again!
If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
QED.
Quit clicking "report" to hide comments when you just simply don't like the ideas expressed.
Because censoring ideas is the essence of censorship. You kids don't have any ground to stand on against government when you sneakily censor here and make up excuses.
Self-proving example! You kids don't like this idea nor being called "kids" so you'll censor this!
[ They like clicking "report" and I like what that shows about Techdirt, so it's win-win.]
>>> When will money grubbing assholes realize that evidence is required in order to prove allegations?
Ah, but you try to pull the trick that copyright owners must prove a case beyond all reasonable doubt, when the value lost is only a few bucks. That's obviously not cost-effective so the pirates are advantaged.
I don't support Rightscorp as such, but to disparage ALL claims to intellectual property, go against all the law in the copyright area that are exactly the compromise that's been worked out, to say pirates can take whatever they wish of other people's work, when it's YOU pirates who are outside of law, that's just contemptible.
So I've become FOR stiff punishments. I just wish that your thefts didn't cause ME trouble, but bad laws are caused by those who don't keep their paws off other people's stuff.
>>> What's funny though is how a lot of trolls end up thinking they're being punished by Mike when their comments are flagged by the community.
First, Masnick is a partisan who controls the forum. He has definitely blocked ME from home IPs. This is NOT an open "platform", this is Masnick tiny kingdom.
Second, mis-using "report" to suppress ideas IS just plain censorship.
Third, labeling those disagree as "trolls" is just typical of what to expect here.
I was just now BLOCKED after two posts by "free forum" Techdirt. I have to use Tor to get in at all!
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And of course all CENSORED yet again!
If you really believed in free speech then you wouldn't have censored this before!
QED.
Quit clicking "report" to hide comments when you just simply don't like the ideas expressed.
Because censoring ideas is the essence of censorship. You kids don't have any ground to stand on against government when you sneakily censor here and make up excuses.
Self-proving example! You kids don't like this idea nor being called "kids" so you'll censor this!
[ They like clicking "report" and I like what that shows about Techdirt, so it's win-win.]
>>> When will money grubbing assholes realize that evidence is required in order to prove allegations?
Ah, but you try to pull the trick that copyright owners must prove a case beyond all reasonable doubt, when the value lost is only a few bucks. That's obviously not cost-effective so the pirates are advantaged.
I don't support Rightscorp as such, but to disparage ALL claims to intellectual property, go against all the law in the copyright area that are exactly the compromise that's been worked out, to say pirates can take whatever they wish of other people's work, when it's YOU pirates who are outside of law, that's just contemptible.
So I've become FOR stiff punishments. I just wish that your thefts didn't cause ME trouble, but bad laws are caused by those who don't keep their paws off other people's stuff.
>>> What's funny though is how a lot of trolls end up thinking they're being punished by Mike when their comments are flagged by the community.
First, Masnick is a partisan who controls the forum. He has definitely blocked ME from home IPs. This is NOT an open "platform", this is Masnick tiny kingdom.
Second, mis-using "report" to suppress ideas IS just plain censorship.
Third, labeling those disagree as "trolls" is just typical of what to expect here.
I was just now BLOCKED after two posts by "free forum" Techdirt. I have to use Tor to get in at all!
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Claiming it multiple times doesn't make it true
Also, just a quick definition primer:
Message is gone, cannot be seen, because it flat out does not exist anymore = Censorship.
Having spam hidden behind a single mouse click because of 'abusive, spam, trollish, or otherwise inappropriate' post = Not censorship.
Really, do you also think spam filters are 'censorship', because they toss junk messages into the trash so people don't have to deal with them? Also, for someone screeching about how much you've been 'censored', funny how people seem to be able to read your ranting just fine.
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Re: Claiming it multiple times doesn't make it true
P.S. If you actually got IP banned or your posts deleted (not likely because nothing seems to shut you up and I've seen plenty of posts not deleted), you deserved it. You do nothing constructive for this community save fling vitriol and yell "CENSORSHIPS!1!!!one!" whenever you're rightly reported. You're not changing any of our minds, especially not like that. Just give up.
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Re: And of course all CENSORED yet again!
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Can you submit it via a tweet? @police
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The real problem
Ed Miliband was committed to "outlawing Islamophobia"
Now I realise that you could construe his words as applying only to anti-muslim violence or discrimination but the boundary between discrimination and speech can be difficult to define.
So if you want free speech who do you vote for in the UK?
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The unthinkable
What is going on with this planet, because I honestly cannot understand. Is there a plan to turn Britain into the new China? Does this disease risk spreading from the UK to the rest of Europe? Why did Britain vote for these extremists, and is there any hope for those who didn't to save themselves from what this madman and his gang are doing?
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Re: The unthinkable
Partly because the Labour Party were incompetent for the last five years, allowing the Tories to get away with blaming them for the recession and accepting the "There is No Alternative" narrative in justification of Thatcherism, partly because they're abandoning their old support base without securing a new one first, and partly because Ed MIlliband promised to institute press reforms based on the Leveson Report, which got the Tories lots of free support.
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Free Speech in Britain
If they lose their freedom of speech, it is something the voted to do.
Democracies, even Parliamentary ones, provide the kind of Government the people deserve... not Want... Deserve.
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Sound familiar?
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No people ever voted themselves freer
Next time you wonder why Second Amendment activists here won't give an inch... this. Remember that we told you so, both about the UK and about the US.
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Re: No people ever voted themselves freer
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"hate speech"
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Re: "hate speech"
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Re: Re: "hate speech"
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