New Zealand Says Kim Dotcom Eligible For Extradition; Dotcom To Appeal
from the and-on-it-goes dept
This doesn't come as a huge surprise, but minutes ago in New Zealand Judge Nevin Dawson gave the US Justice Department a bit of an early Christmas present in declaring that Kim Dotcom and his co-defendants in the Megaupload case are eligible for extradition, following the long extradition trial earlier this year. The judge apparently said that the evidence was "overwhelming" against the defendants. This does not mean that Dotcom and crew are boarding a plane across the Pacific just yet. They have 15 days to file an appeal and Dotcom's lawyers have already indicated that such an appeal is on the way (what did you expect?). Dotcom's lawyer Ira Rothken points out that under New Zealand's extradition agreement with the US, there is no extradition over copyright issues -- and argues this ruling renders such a safe harbor "illusory." Of course, even if that fails, there's still a separate process for approving the actual extradition, which would take place with New Zealand's Justice Minister, but that part of the process is more of a formality than anything else. It's not over yet, but at this point things are leaning strongly towards Dotcom and his colleagues being shipped to Virginia to face a US criminal trial.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: copyright, doj, extradition, kim dotcom, new zealand
Companies: megaupload
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Artists: 1 Assholes: 0
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Love the irony of you posting corporate stooge accusations on Techdirt.
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And the tired trope of the site is in the pocket of big porn or google, rather than admitting that the narrow view of the world you enjoy isn't shared by everyone.
Considering how far the rule of law has been bent in this case, the damage inflicted to all of the users of a service, and making 1 person the poster child for the alleged bad acts of others perhaps you have failed to understand that allowing that sort of thing to happen to someone you dislike opens the door to it happening to you.
In closing, try to pull your head out of your ass - it might improve your world view.
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Your little speech is hilarious.
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"Your little speech is hilarious."
Quite!
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Reminder: copyright issues are not extraditable...
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The main problem with that idea is that, as the lawyer notes, it completely nullifies the whole 'You can't be extradited for copyright infringement' limit on extradition. Does a site have ads and infringing content? Then the owners are eligible for extradition, because not only are they 'profiting' from the infringing content, clearly they are using the proceeds to pay for the site itself, which is money laundering.
If the ruling stands, then NZ might as well completely strip the limitation on extradition related to copyright from the books, as it will have been made completely useless.
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It's really important to understand that copyright infringement is not the extraditable offense, but it is still a crime. Money laundering however is such an offense. Understanding the concept is very important in understanding why NZ really has no choice in the matter. The charges rise up to the right level.
Remember too: Kim is a NZ legal resident, but not a citizen. It's important to understand because once he is extradited (ie, out of the country) NZ washes their hands entirely of the mess and does not have to allow him back in. I suspect more than a few government officials will be happy to see him disappear, considering all the expense he has caused in all of this.
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FTFY.
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Which was still brought up as one of the charges he would be extradited for. Try again.
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But, hey, I'll still give you kudos for not acting like a small child unlike some of your brethren in this thread. How those guys expect any counter-argument to be heard (even if they bothered to offer one) is mystifying. You at least try to give the pretense of an adult conversation.
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Copyright of course is the key illegal act which garnered MU hundreds of millions of dollars. It is also NOT generally an extraditable offence. However, commercial copyright violation / piracy is illegal in both countries. It is the bad act which generated the illegal revenue, and Kim's knowledge of the infringing material on the site is very key. It is, however, not a directly extraditable offence in and of itself.
Thus, we have money laundering. That is an extradition level offense, no doubt about it. Kim created a number of shell companies to promote and market MU services, with the intent to move money away from MU and clean it through a commission payment system. It takes the money away from the criminal enterprise, and moves it to clean "marketing" companies in a handful of different countries.
So the issue is simple: The commercial copyright may not alone be an extradition level offense. But it is certainly part of the package which supports the larger, and much clearer money laundering setup.
"all without addressing a single point brought up during the whole fiasco."
What's to add? If the what the US alleges is true, Kim knowingly made hundreds of millions of dollars by selling access to material he knew wasn't legal to distribute, and set up a system to move the money away from the corrupt enterprise to safe haven shell companies around the world. His actions seem to how a consciousness of guilt that is pretty hard to deny.
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And if what the US alleges is NOT proven true, then what? Are the US taxpayers on the hook for rebuilding his business?
Because not for nothing, if the US loses, and all the bullshit associated with how this went down comes to light, there's going to be a whole slew of lawsuits that the TAXPAYER will be on the hook for, as far as damages.
I personally don't feel like footing the bill just in case the RIAA/MPAA cartels just happen to be wrong (not that that's ever happened before /s).
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Well, it's always the risks in being in a marginal or potentially illegal business that you have to deal with the legal aspects. That includes the risk that your business is closed or shut down for a period of time.
If what Kim did is entirely legal, he could restart tomorrow and he would almost instantly be completely back in business - and more so, as the legal standing would make the site even more open and public. Winning would make Kim a billionaire.
Not seeing the problem.
It would be about as impossible for Kim to prove ACTUAL damages as you guys would claim it is for copyright holders to prove. Lots of theory, but what would have happened if someone opened SuperUpload at half the price, twice the speed, and so on? His business could have been destroyed naturally 5 minutes later. So what is the lost value? Potential value? Roll out all the arguments used against copyright damages, and try it out!
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I thought it was legal in NZ. Do you also support US citizens being deported because their site might be considered indecent in Saudi Arabia, or immoral in Uganda? If not, why not. No wild fantasies, hypocrisy or lies, please.
"If what Kim did is entirely legal, he could restart tomorrow"
After being deported to a country he has no relationship with, no "loser pays" legislation (so he's heavily in debt even if he wins) and no guarantee of returning to the country he lived in, let along the business. Great deal in your mind, I'm sure.
"Winning would make Kim a billionaire"
Until the next time he's kidnapped.
"It would be about as impossible for Kim to prove ACTUAL damages"
It's impossible to prove how much he earned before he was shut down without a trial? I thought you claimed you have records of "illegal" income?
"what would have happened if someone opened SuperUpload at half the price, twice the speed, and so on"
If he failed to react to market forces, he would have naturally gone out of business and deserved it, as the majority of businesses do within the first few years of starting up. If he has reacted, he would have become more successful and correctly addressed his customers' needs, unless he was successfully prosecuted for illegal activity.
Why do you support foreign governments mandating this failure without due process?
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Well, everything is "potentially" illegal.
That includes the risk that your business is closed or shut down for a period of time.
Or that you may be imprisoned "for a period of time". How about you identify yourself for us so that if someone wants to accuse you of a crime they can imprison -you- for a while? Hey, that's the risk you pay for living, right?
Yeah, I didn't think so. Hypocritical piece of shit.
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Is that illegal? And what is this illegal to distribute material?
and set up a system to move the money away from the corrupt enterprise to safe haven shell companies around the world.
Shell companies and moving money around for tax purposes is very common with multi-national companies. That could even apply to Apple. Yet I somehow doubt the US would extradite Tim Cook to New Zealand if the shoe were on the other foot.
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If you must. It is, of course, you just tend to have different definitions of certain words.
"Copyright of course is the key illegal act which garnered MU hundreds of millions of dollars."
Citation needed, since there's plenty of evidence of legal income. It may not match whatever evidence of illegal income people haven't shown us, but it's there. But, let's humour you.
"It is also NOT generally an extraditable offence."
That's the first problem most of us have, especially since that was the stated excuse for shutting down a service with many legal users with no due process according to the laws of the country in which it was hosted.
"Thus, we have money laundering. That is an extradition level offense, no doubt about it."
Cool. So, why was this not the original charge? Why was copyright infringement even raised as charge?
"If the what the US alleges is true, Kim knowingly made hundreds of millions of dollars by selling access to material he knew wasn't legal to distribute, and set up a system to move the money away from the corrupt enterprise to safe haven shell companies around the world."
...and if it's not, he's being deported to country he's neither a resident not a citizen of, with a history of locking people up indefinitely without trial in Cuba. A country that's already shown willing to kidnap foreign citizens on the behest of copyright charges for a private corporation.
Surely someone even as biased as you can at least understand the questions? I don't doubt that Dotcom is an abrasive arsehole and has probably done something illegal. But this tactic to catch him?
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Look, we know the Kim is not a good guy. But everything that's happeneed in this case has beeen positively saint-like compared to the actions of the FBI and the DoJ.
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They have to, I think. That's why there's so much misdirection or personal attacks on Dotcom. I don't think I've ever seen one of these threads without attacks on his physical appearance, as if that mattered in any way. It's so pathetic.
Any attempt to address the actual issues people had with this whole thing will lead to admission that all sides were in the wrong here. Plus, that leads to the real problems people have with these cases, which is the way copyright is enforced. If, as is claimed by Whatever, the case was only ever about money laundering, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as controversial.
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Part of what makes Dotcom delusory (as witnessed by his rather unsuccesful political escapades) is that he confuses support of his fundamental rights (which are openly disregarded by the U.S. and its subservient New Zealand judiciary) with popularity.
He isn't popular. But that does not change that the whole process/seizure/extradition/etc by the U.S. Department of "Justice" is a complete joke completely disrespecting fundamental laws of both the U.S. and New Zealand.
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Exactly my point. These people seem to think "Dotcom is an asshole" or even "Dotcom is fat" is enough of an argument to not question what's been happening here. The rest of us understand exactly why due process is so important, even as it protects those we may not feel deserve protecting.
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It's even more important to question what is happening here since this is where bad precedent will be set beacuse, "Dotcom is an asshole" or "Dotcom is fat".
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That's the way our society is. Studies have even shown that one of the most important indicators of future success is physical attractiveness. Ever seen a beautiful woman panhandling on the side of the road? Me neither.
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When you are panhandling, you don't have the resources to be "beautiful".
If you are taking a look at the "natural" form of "beautiful women", they tend to be rather bland with no particular dominant features. Which is precisely what is needed to make them a projection surface for the imagery associated with "beautiful women" without distraction.
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I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've seen plenty of naturally beautiful women, but none on the side of the road.
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The MPAA went to great lengths to get Mississippi state Attorney General Jim Hood to go after Google by using his offices investigative and subpoena powers to "investigate" Google for aiding and abetting copyright infringement...then it leaked thru the Sony hack that the MPAA had a law firm they use draft up the letter and the subpoena for Hood to send to Google, and all the while the MPAA stayed in the shadows.
The MPAA has very dirty hands in the Google case and in Dotcom's case, and has demonstrated that they will go to great lengths to get politicians and governments ( both foreign and domestic ) to do what they have been unable and unwilling to do.
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That is a really important point!
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What does it take to get extradited to NZ?
How does that strike you Kiwis? Do you like knowing that everything your country does now has to be run past your government's superiors at the MAFIAA and us.gov including following the laws of a country you don't even live in?
Maybe you guys should throw those ridiculous guys in charge out on their heads... yeah yeah, probably just like we should do here in the US as well.
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No wonder nuclear weapons are proliferating. It's the only way to be self-governing these days.
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Be careful what you wish for
I don't give a crap if Dotcom is guilty or innocent but I have a problem with how the U.S. government had behaved in dealing with him.
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scam artists (and assholes) in the RIAA (and their ilk): 0.5
actual artists (who make music) and everyone else who likes music: still 0
BAU
...and the Department of Legal Affairs** keeps on keepin' on (being a tool)
** don't look for "justice" here
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"The evidence is overwhelming..."
If the NZ judge cared about justice, they'd refuse extradition by pointing out that other than making an example of Dotcom by dragging him through the mud some more, the 'trial' is moot thanks to the DOJ's actions.
MU the company has already been destroyed, and Dotcom's funds 'forfeited'(though I have no doubt that if he is extradited, and found guilty in the 'trial', the judge will insist that the money already taken from him not count against any fines levied).
Other than twisting the knife a bit, there's nothing much the court can do to him that they haven't already done, so at this point the whole extradition/'trial' is just to save face, so the DOJ doesn't look like complete chumps for jumping when the *AA's told them to without looking if they had somewhere to land first.
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you americans are going to die
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you americans are going to die
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Yeah, of course it is. They're even more numerous and childish than normal, though. I wonder why?
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In fact, I believe that most people agree, which is why we have extradition treaties to begin with. I'm sure that if it was another way around, with a US citizen being dragged over to Germany from his home in New Zealand, there are some hypocrites here who would change their minds rather quickly about where rights and jurisdictions lay.
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No doubt the US would voice strong objections to any application for NZ citizenship that Dotcom applies and will get high ranking officials in NZ on there behalf to make objections to the department that receives and reviews Dotcom NZ citizenship application.
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I would be very concerned about a system that requires you to give up your citizenship just to remain protected by your host country. Especially since in this case the extradition is coming from a country he's neither a citizen of nor, as I understand it, has ever visited.
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Because NZ is apparently eager to lick the US in certain places.
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https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2653473/Dotcom-JG.pdf
sorry dudes... xmas stuff happening..
merry xmas to all (even the trolls) and hope you all have a safe, peaceful and geeky holiday season... Don't do nuffin to get you talked about in papers :)
See ya all in 2016!
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The MPAA and Hollywood have been after Dotcom and Mega-upload for years, and while they haven't been able to get Dotcom and Mega-upload thru civil actions, they dreamed up a way to get him criminally which is what we have seen so far.
How the US Government and it's DOJ has become the legal arm of the MPAA & RIAA is frightening. The MPAA & Hollywood have gone to great lengths to stretch US Copyright law to extend past Americas borders and have it apply to non citizens of the US in other countries.
Am I a Dotcom fan, not entirely but this case has bordered on the insanity level. The fact that Hollywood has roped the US Government, the US DOJ and the New Zealand government into being it's private prosecution and has twisted US copyright laws and criminal law to manufacture a criminal case is asinine
The US DOJ has even picked Judge Liam O'Grady to handle this case ( For those who don't know is well connected to Hollywood ). O'Grady gave us the wonderful Cox vs. Rightscorp ruling and that ruling showed that O'Grady still isn't able to be impartial and rule according to law and forget his days when he worked for Hollywood.
Dotcom has the right to face his accusers and have his case heard, but the amount of histrionics thrown around in this whole farce of get Dotcom by any means necessary is plain wrong.
The amount of taxpayers money that the US Government and the New Zealand government has spent on this case has to be in the tens of millions of dollars already and I would have to think is far past any financial losses that the MPAA claims Hollywood suffered ( and the way Hollywood makes up their damage claims can we even trust them when we do get a number, it's already been proven that Hollywood likes to throw around big numbers in a win of a lawsuit like they did in the Hotfile case that are not what they really received in the settlement from the case )
Dotcom has had the decked stacked against him from day one when this farce started and it will continue to be this way when he arrives on american soil.for this trial. It is amazing how far a private group has gone to turn a civil matter into a criminal matter and all with taxpayer dollars being spent.
This case will drag on and on and on because the US Government can not say "not our problem" to their Hollywood backers and that this is a civil court issue, and the fact that they have managed to manufacture a criminal case on non U.S citizens is nothing less than frightening.
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I cannot imagine them willing giving dotcom up to a government that has proven they will break international laws as well as their own laws to go after someone out of spite.
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really wish I could edit these comments.
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ponking good script
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What do we call people like him when they're arrested?
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take someones money away,
so they cant defend themselves .
imagine if the new zealand government tried to take a us citizens money because he might be guilty of copyright infringement ,
and extradite him to new zealand.
The usa wants to get all data ,emails ,phone calls of non us
citizens , we are all treated as potential terrorists .
And it wants us law to apply in every country .
OF course under TTP the us is exporting the worst parts
of its patent and copyright system ,
without the us protection for free speech rights.
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Anyway, this guy has had almost 4 years of "due process".
Put him behind bars where he belongs.
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In some cases it's even more than that. In cases where the defendant is unlikely to even get a fair trail, such as this one, it's a veritable sentence.
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Four years of me not shitting in your living room does not suddenly give me permission to take a dump on your carpet for one day.
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Sweet, so in a judicial system biased toward whoever can pay the most most, just set an arbitrary time limit and wait them out while billion dollar corporations pay their lawyers. Nobody's innocent, yay!
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Nobody should ever be imprisoned for creating a business that some customers used to commit acts that can't even be proven to have a net negative affect on society.
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Anyway, this guy has had almost 4 years of "due process".
Put him behind bars where he belongs.
Agreed!
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