How A Treasury Terror List Is Preventing Americans With 'Scary' Names From Using Online Services

from the scary-names dept

Tue, Feb 16th 2016 3:27am — Timothy Geigner

We've talked a few times before about the US Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control, a government office theoretically designed to keep money from flowing to and from scary people in scary countries or whatever. Its work typically amounts to keeping businesses from doing business-y things with people in places like North Korea and such. On the other hand, sometimes the folks at the OFAC get their knickers in a twist over a graphic novel about some of these scary people, so it's not like these folks have a spotless record when it comes to keeping the proper targets in its collective sights.

But a couple of stories have been trickling in having to do with non-scary people who share names too-closely associated with actual scary people suddenly being denied online services due to the OFAC scare-list. The first of these concerned a man named Muhammad Zakir Khan being refused a registration for a multiplayer video game.

Gamasutra, which broke the story, reports that when Khan submitted his request, he received an unusual denial, one explaining that his name had come up as “a match against the Specially Designated Nationals list maintained by the United States of America's Office of Foreign Assets Control.” Epic was, in other words, refusing Khan the opportunity to try out its new game simply because his name resembles that of someone who might be financially involved with terrorism.

Khan tweeted a a screengrab of the rejection form and hashtaged it “#Islamophobia.” Surprisingly, Epic Games founder Tim Sweeney replied to another tweet about the issue, claiming that it had been caused by an “[o]verly broad filter related to US trade restrictions.”

Which, you know, good for Epic Games. And I wouldn't really refer to this as "islamophobia" so much as I'd refer to it as broad laziness by both a government agency and a corporation. Let's think this through for one moment. If our Treasury Department is going to cast a worried eye towards Islamic terrorism such that it compiles a list of names that businesses are refused from interacting with, and if those names come from a region of the world where there is a certain repetition of these sorts of names (Muhammad Khan sounds like it could be akin to John Smith), then how useful is this directory of scary people to begin with? The point of the list is to identify bad actors, but if innocent folks are getting caught up in it, then it isn't serving its chief function particularly well, now is it? But no matter, says the government agency. Just add the name to the list and damn the fallout to hell.

The broader question, of course, is why an online game should be checking registrations against the CFAC list to begin with. In this particular case, it appears the check was ported over from the game engine itself.

Unreal Engine 4 has a wide range of uses, both domestic and foreign, that apparently bring it under the umbrella of trade guidelines. Under ordinary circumstances, those restrictions should only apply to people who are using the engine to create new games. (For instance, the U.S. government presumably doesn't want ISIS to use the engine to create a recruiting game.) But when Epic used the engine to make Paragon, it accidentally left those restrictions in place. Thus, the filter shouldn't have been there in the first place, and no one should have been banned from Paragon, regardless of whether they show up on a watch list.

As I said: government laziness and corporate laziness combine to keep an innocent person from playing a video game. Success!

Such innocent circumstances don't appear to be replicated in the story of Noor Ahmed's attempt to sign up for a payment app called Venmo, which is normally a cinch to register for, but for which Ahmed still isn't able to use.

When she tried to sign up last year, Venmo refused to add her. The company sent her an email instead, asking Ahmed to provide a stack of additional information to verify her identity. What followed was the opposite of simplicity: Ahmed had to obtain paper copies of her utility bills as well bank statements, and then find a fax machine (a practically unheard of technology for many younger people) to send them to Venmo. After complying with this rigamarole, Ahmed still was unable to sign on to Venmo.

It turns out that she, like thousands of other Americans, shares a name with someone on a list created by a Treasury group called the Office of Foreign Assets Control. This list is called “Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons,” and includes (on page 33) a 41-year-old Afghan man also named Noor Ahmed. The New York-based Ahmed, said she is familiar with such mix-ups.

“I was born and raised in California, but I’m taken into secondary customs at the airport no matter what because of my name,” said Ahmed. “I think it’s now extending to other parts of my life.”

Whatever your thoughts on terrorism and international politics, it's quite clear that this isn't helpful. It isn't stopping a terrorist from using the app; it's stopping a US citizen from using it. It isn't helpfully identifying a person for a US business to steer clear of; it's mis-identifying a US citizen. Hell, the list can't even keep men and women straight. For the CFAC list to useful, never mind non-discriminatory, it should at least be able to keep a valid US citizen from being caught up in the web.

If it can't manage that simple task, it's probably worth revisiting whether this list should be employed at all.

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Filed Under: ofac, office of foreign asset control, terrorists, treasury department, watch list

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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 3:53am

Gamasutra is poison
Gamers who hold free speech paramount can't stand Gamasutra. You will get a lot more clicks and reposts of any gaming-related article that does not link to Gamasutra or mention their name. This may not be a wholly rational response; after all, the above is absolutely an important story. I'm just not spreading this because as a self-identified gamer, I simply cannot stomach helping Gamasutra in any way. And if you don't know why, then you are just clued out. Sorry!
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:08am

I bet scarrorists are using fake names to bypass these restrictions.
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That One Guy (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:09am

The fatal flaw...
Of course the real weakness of such systems is that they make one huge, erroneous assumption:

Bad guys can't change their names or use different ones.

If a given person's name is on the list, and they really do have nefarious intent, it's not difficult at all for them to simply use a forged ID and completely bypass the checks, leaving yet another system that impacts primarily the innocent, while not even terribly inconveniencing the ones it's meant to catch.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:11am

Re: Gamasutra is poison
I actually have no idea what this is about? Why is Gamasutra the devil now?
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Rich Kulawiec, 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:16am

Re: The fatal flaw...
That's one of the flaws. Another is that people can change their names to ones on the list, either on an ad hoc basis or via the usual legal mechanisms.

These lists are inherently racist and xenophobic: there is no way, for example, that "John Smith" will ever, EVER end up the list even if a John Smith blows up the White House. They're reserved for scary brown people with scary names from scary countries, and their purpose isn't to stop terrorism: it's to provide the comfortable illusion that something is being done.
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Narcissus (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:21am

Terrorist manual in the making
I remember that a while ago some scaremonger said that terrorists are now using game chats for communications. In that light the check might make some sense. Not that I believe terrorists do that but what do I know.

However, even if you believe that, it should be easy to solve. A little additional info like a copy of an ID or an SSN should be sufficient to confirm your non-terrorist status. Of course an e-mailed scan would be much better than a fax.

The whole process is obviously stupid though. It's now clear what terrorists need to do: They should all use common American names, like the aforementioned John Smith. If they play their (credit)cards right they can block the funds of a large chunk of US citizens.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:34am

Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
lol and the actual article that you guys linked to was from Slate...
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:40am

typical attitude of USA security forces. they can be as awkward as hell, so they will be as awkward as hell! not a single person in the agencies thinks there is anything wrong with what is happening to those on the lists, nor do they care!
i thought all this complete scare-mongering went out with the 'reds under the bed' at the end of the 50s-60s. seems i was wrong!
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Matthew A. Sawtell, 16 Feb 2016 @ 4:40am

So... anyone going to trot out the Eric Schmidt approach and...
... tell people to simply 'change their names' to correct the issue?
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Quiet Lurcker, 16 Feb 2016 @ 5:03am

Re: The fatal flaw...
No, that's not the fatal flaw.

The fatal flaw is, the list is unconstitutional.

For explanation, I invite your attention to the 'no-fly list'.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 5:08am

Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
They're not the devil. They're poison. There is no need to explain why. Knowing why is mark of whether you are a real gamer. If you were, you'd know why. The fact that you don't yet know why shows that you don't need to know why, because if you did need to know, then you would know already. Since you apparently don't know already, there is no point in my telling you, since it's already clear that my reasons won't be important to you. So by all means, enjoy your Gamasutra in blissful ignorance.
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Chris-Mouse (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 5:43am

Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
OK, I'm not a real gamer. I admit it. Now, why should I avoid Gamasutra? If all you can say is "because I say so" then I'll just consider it to be your paranoid imagination and discount not only your opinions on Gasmasutra, but also your opinions on pretty much anything else.
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Derek (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 5:50am

Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
John Smith absolutely could end of on the list. There was a T. Kennedy on one of the many, many lists, and Senator Kennedy was affected for several months before his friend Tom Ridge (Director of Homeland Security) straightened it out.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 5:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I have already explained that if you don't already know then you don't need to know. So why sweat it? Also, how exactly are you going to disregard my opinions on anything else, if I am anonymous? A real gamer would have already figured out the futility of this threat before making it.
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Still Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 5:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
P.S. I do have to give you points for 'Gasmasutra' however. That was right on target.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I'm still trying to figure out if this is some kind of convoluted piece of performance art where he's trying to trick people into thinking along the same lines of the government.

If people truly aren't a threat, they won't be on the list of specially-designated nationals, amirite? So clearly if you don't understand why gamasutra is poison and the enemy of free speech you can't be in our club and we'll add you to the list of non-gamers.

Alternatively we can reject his no true Scotsman argument and leave him to his conspiracy theories. I play games; I'm pretty sure that qualifies me as a gamer. I don't pay much attention to games journalism so I have no idea what he's talking about since I have other interests besides gaming and don't feel the need to spend my non-gaming time reading hype-generating PR generated by publishers.
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Ninja (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:06am

Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
U mad bro? If there's a problem you should be sharing with the exact intent of driving people away from the site. "It's bad, I say so, believe or die!" is not going to help. Or rather, if they are that bad it's helping them. Knwoledge is power. Of course, this is only valid if you aren't spewing bullshit.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Why am I getting the feeling that this all amounts to how terrifying women are?
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I'm the same anonymous gamer — I just had to reset my router and my IP changed. I could have pretended to be a different person, but since I'm not a game journalist, I have more integrity than that.

I'm not saying anyone should die for not believing as I do that Gamasutra is poison. I'm not even trying to convince anyone. This is why I have made no case for it. In fact, I specifically said multiple times that if you don't know why it's poison then you don't need to know and should just enjoy the site.

It's just that at this point, either you know the ways in which Gamasutra have proven themselves to be trashmongers, or you are blissfully unaware and will likely stay that way regardless of what any gamer says about it. The shit they did wrong was very big news. If you don't know already it's because you didn't want to know.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:24am

All the systems are in place that should a xenophobia peddling person trying to deflect attention from the 1% gain power, the trump of doom will sound for the minorities in the US.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:32am

Virtual internment camps. Nice to see we've matured in this country.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:36am

Self fulfilling prophecy.

I have put your name on the list. You are now branded a _____. Though you have done nothing wrong other than having this name, we will now use the full power of the government to harass you every chance we get. We will continue to harass you until you break down and lash out in a ______-ic fashion. Then we will have been correct all along that you were a _______.

Fill in the blanks.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
> "It's bad, I say so, believe or die!" is not going to help.

You have described the internet bubble that defines the group of whackjobs who are apparently so afraid of censorship that members now won't even make their arguments outside of their bubble. It is all about ethics in bubbles!
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:46am

Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
Growing pains. They quickly figured out they couldn't pull that shit with white names but, as the article proves, they haven't bothered to extend that same knowledge to brown names. And that is why Zakir Khan was correct in labeling it islamaphobia.
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PaulT (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Can't be more terrifying than keeping that kind of circular logic in one head while still retaining the need to type...

@AC: you know, if you tried typing what the hell you're on about here, you'd not only have a chance of getting people to join your boycott, but you'd be typing less words while doing it. Just a thought.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
My intention was simply to signal to Techdirt that hardcore gamers (or 'real' or 'insane' - take your pick but we're pretty numerous whatever you call us) REAAALLLY don't like Gamasutra, so stories involving Gamasutra will tend to not get spread compared to stories not involving Gamasutra. If you wish to know why gamers think that, that's cool, but I'm not your guy. I would have to care a bit more than I do what you believe or don't believe. I am way past that my friend.

The no true Scotsman schtick WAS just a pose. If you want to act like the fact that I said 'real gamers' is an important detail, have at it.
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PaulT (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"I'm not even trying to convince anyone."

Then, what are you trying to do?

"In fact, I specifically said multiple times that if you don't know why it's poison then you don't need to know and should just enjoy the site."

Cool. You know what makes most peoples' time here more enjoyable? Not scrolling through a bunch of comments that not only refuse to explain what they're talking about, but are only tangentially related to the subject in the article.

"The shit they did wrong was very big news"

In your community perhaps. There's a lot of people here not in that community, be that because they're not gamers or just because they're not as "hardcore" as you seem to be. Why do you refuse to explain what the problem is?
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 6:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
1. That would be way more tedious.
2. That would not result in other people typing bizarrely hilarious sentences like, 'Why am I getting the feeling that this all amounts to how terrifying women are?'
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
You could have just said GG and we could have ignored you instead of trying to figure out what you're talking about.

You do realize you're starting to sound like religious fundamentalists, right? "Don't eat the pork. It's the devil!"
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PaulT (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"My intention was simply to signal to Techdirt that hardcore gamers... REAAALLLY don't like Gamasutra"

Cool. There's a lot of people who really don't like hardcore gamers. There's a lot of people who really don't like a lot of things that I and many other people are into.

But, I'm sure they'd at least have the courtesy to state why it should matter to the rest of us, even if the reasons they gave were easy to dismiss. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm curious as to why you've wasted all that time typing, while refusing to say anything.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
You know what makes most peoples' time here EVEN more enjoyable? Not scrolling through a bunch of comments REPLYING to comments that not only refuse to explain what they're talking about, but are only tangentially related to the subject in the article.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I'm curious as why you've wasted all that time replying to a person whom you insist hasn't said anything.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:04am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
So you come out of nowhere like a low level teamster boss to warn TD not to use concrete in its building or else they won't have the support of your clique? You're very self important.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:05am

Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I've grown up playing video games. My first game was Pong and the Atari 2600 Spiderman. I've owned or still own an Atari 2600, NES, Gameboy, SNES, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advanced, N64, Gamecube, NDS, 3DS, Wii, NEW 3DS, Wii U, Genesis, Nomad, Saturn, Dreamcast, Playstation, PS2, PSP, PS3, PSVita, NGPC, GP32X, XBox 360, and of course a plethora of PCs for playing games as early as Wolfenstein 3D and as recent as games released this year.

But apparently I'm not a "real gamer" because I don't know what one specific example that you're talking about. I'm curious what your definition of "real gamer" is.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:06am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Yes 'Believe or die!' does describe exactly that kind of internet bubble. Too bad I haven't said anything like that. In fact I've said the exact opposite repeatedly, but you and that other fellow resolutely believe that I said 'Believe or die!' even though you've been right here on the forum with me where I've said the exact opposite multiple times. What kind of an Internet bubble do you call that?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:07am

Re: So... anyone going to trot out the Eric Schmidt approach and...
That's what the system is silently doing with these modern Jim Crow laws. "Change your name and assimilate and everything will be easier for you." Of course, what will they do when John Smith shows upnon that list?
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kallethen, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
It's more simple than that.

The guy is obviously trolling. Everybody please stop feeding his ego.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:09am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Yeah, not retweeting Techdirt is JUST LIKE refusing concrete to a building. And somehow -I'm- the self-important one?
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I already said that Gamasutra isn't the devil FFS. It's amazing the way people who don't even know why they are disagreeing with you will parrot each other's made-up talking points.
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PaulT (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"1. That would be way more tedious"

Not for those of us reading an article about a Treasury Dept list and wishing to discuss the actual subject of the article. If you find that subject tedious, might I suggest an actual gamer blog to post on, rather than one that happened to state the name of your nemesis in passing?

"2. That would not result in other people typing bizarrely hilarious sentences like, 'Why am I getting the feeling that this all amounts to how terrifying women are?'"

Hilarious as he's got a point? Or hilarious because you're congratulating yourself over how much your non-statements have made people think you're referring to something else?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:13am

But...Epic *made* Unreal Engine 4. How could this accidentally slip in outside of a whole lot of "what's this code do? eh, not my problem."
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PaulT (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Partly boredom while waiting for my work shift to end, partly trying to goad him into saying something identifiable as a point.
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PaulT (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
You're right. I'll go off and read Gamasutra instead.

I don't normally go to that site, but if this is the maturity level of the people they're pissing off they must be doing something right. Thanks for handing them free clicks!
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Mason Wheeler (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:21am

Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
No true Scottish gamer...
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Dark Helmet (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"It's amazing the way people who don't even know why they are disagreeing with you will parrot each other's made-up talking points."

The problem is that YOU won't tell us why you're disagreeing with us....
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I wasn't at first, but it became too easy. They wanted to be trolled. They even pretended not to know what I was talking about so that I would escalate my trolling into what I was really talking about. Be glad I didn't bite or we'd be here all day.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
You sure showed me. I bet spite-clicking will save Gamasutra's bottom line.
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AJ, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:31am

Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"They're not the devil. They're poison. There is no need to explain why. Knowing why is mark of whether you are a real gamer. If you were, you'd know why. The fact that you don't yet know why shows that you don't need to know why, because if you did need to know, then you would know already. Since you apparently don't know already, there is no point in my telling you, since it's already clear that my reasons won't be important to you. So by all means, enjoy your Gamasutra in blissful ignorance."

*Waves at Bartender* I'll take two of what ever the fuck HE'S drinkin!!!!!
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"Him" is me. I'm the same anonymous gamer. Different IP b/c I reset my router. Maybe I shouldn't have told you: you sounded nicer and more reasonable when you thought I was somebody else.
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PaulT (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
He's not even disagreeing, there's people here who have never visited the site he's whining about before, let alone hold an opinion one way or the other. Yet, he thinks the people asking him to explain his own words are disagreeing are spouting "talking points" rather than asking the most logical question. Fascinating.
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AJ, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I am in total awe of this guys trolling skillz. He's like the Bruce Lee of Trolling... no one knows WTF he's talking about, but were all trying like hell to figure it out as it's got to be good..
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PRMan, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:36am

Re:
"Trump of doom"

Is that what we're calling him now?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:40am

Re: (x27) Gamasutra is poison
At some point, it becomes useful to give your post a new title, or no title. The threading engine will still track what you are replying to, don't worry about that.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Hilarious because the two of you speak as if 'how terrifying women are' is something people can genuinely believe that a group of other people believe.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:45am

> After complying with this rigamarole, Ahmed still was unable to sign on to Venmo.

Evidence that (a) following this list is a new and burdensome procedure for Venmo, and (b) that Venmo has not got identification procedures working yet.

If their identification procedures were working, she'd have been able to sign on. Perhaps they were unable to correctly use what she sent them. Perhaps they asked for the wrong things. I can't guess usefully.

But since Venmo did not correct their procedure - and work with Ms Ahmed - bringing the incident into the news spotlight is the correct answer.

Positive reinforcement, in Epic's case. Negative in Venmo's.
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John Fenderson (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I was thinking exactly this. It's brilliant.
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Groaker (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:47am

Censorship
Almost all parts of government, and all governments practice censorship. I first became aware that the US did so when an entire issue of Sandoz's journal "Triangle" was censored in the late '70s or early 80's.

This occurred because the issue contained research on a particular use of a pharmaceutical that had not been approved by the FDA.

Yes, Sandoz is big pharma. But how can the US justify censoring apolitical data? Yet it has been going on for decades and centuries. Keep 'em ignorant and happy.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:52am

Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Ladies and gentlemen, gamers are STILL stupid. I rest my case.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 7:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
At first I thought he was serious but the more I read, I think he must work for Gamasutra. Some weird sort of advertising ploy in order to get people look at their website trying to find the dark secrets of it's "poison". Trolling is another guess.
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Richard (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
And that is why Zakir Khan was correct in labeling it islamaphobia.

Actually it isn't - for two reasons

1) Islamaphobia isn't actually a thing. ( A phobia is an irrational fear - Islamaphobia is not necessarily a fear and it is definitely not irrational.)

2) Just because you have a name with historical Islamic associations doen't mean that you are a Muslim. Christian Bale isn't necessarily a Christian. Sam Harris has a name with Judeo Christian associations - he is an atheist.

Thise who label something like this as Islamaphobia are themselves trying to hijack the situation to advance a political cause. - You know what Christopher Hitchens (Not a Christian - despite his name) said about it.
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Rich Kulawiec, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
Exactly so. Keep in mind that this is the same infrastructure that's shown that it can't distinguish Arabs from Turks, Muslims from Sikhs, Indians from Pakistanis...but can very clearly distinguish Caucasians from African-Americans, Jews from Lutherans, Italians from French.

This lack of awareness, of ethnic and religious and national distinctions, serves the actual cause of fighting terrorism poorly: how can you possibly claim to have definitive information on anyone if you can't get a few basic facts right? And it also abuses, insults, and discriminates against many people who are completely innocent and just trying to get through their day.

This is not how competent agencies work. This is not how the United States is supposed to work. They and we should be better than this.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
The talking points are things people say I said that I never said, and then even after I say the opposite of those things, people ignore that and continue to talk as if I said those things. Those are talking points.

Much like the way you and others are pretending as if I'm trying to convince everyone here of my opinion, so you can crow about the fact that you are not persuaded.

As for the most logical question, it has yet to be asked.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:05am

This gamer conversation might be a great basis for a monty python style skit.
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Unanimous Cow Herd, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
No, but some guy repeating "Gamasutra" a bunch of times in his cryptic rant, followed by replies with "Gamasutra" in them, and replies to replies with the same has, in fact, probably made people more aware of the site. If your intent was to drive traffic TO Gamasutra, or to raise their score in a Google, search, well done, sir. You got some weird Babs Effect thing going on.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
If you're that much of a gamer and you are truly unaware of why Gamasutra is poison… I envy you.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
"Irrational fear"
I'd say it's an irrational fear considering how it's used as a pretext to abridge our rights...
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
What does retweeting have to do with anything? Is that the support you'd provide TD if they didn't reference a website that you dislike? That you've felt the need to fill this thread with off-topic nonsense is proof of your self importance. That and the fact that you can't resist replying to every single comment in which we're pointing out that you're wasting your time and ours.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I appreciate the confidence, Cow Herd, but sadly I can only eagerly await the day fame & fortune allows me to sway a website's Google's score. When that inevitable day comes, I will use it all on Zombo com.
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Anonymous Gamer, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I absolutely can too resist replying to every— d'oh!

I see what you did there.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:35am

Re:
Or a suicide note.
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Ninja (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 8:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Dude, seriously. SERIOUSLY. I don't read Gamasutra and I had only vaguely heard of it. And I do play games. A whole fucking lot of them. It's just that I don't really follow gaming news, I just get a game here and there sometimes when it falls under my radar.

That said, what I am asking you and you are failing to provide is reasons why is it poison. You know, you got me curious to the point I'm considering checking the site. From your tonne I'm inclined to believe other comenters here may be right.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 9:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
It's just gamergate nonsense because they had one of the "gamers are dead!" articles. So of course the best way to go against an article you dislike is to try your hardest to live up to what it was talking about.
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tqk (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 9:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Why am I getting the feeling that this all amounts to how terrifying women are?

I'm suspecting marketroid at work. Troll creates buzz. The more controversial and obfuscated (suspense!), the better.
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nasch (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 9:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
My intention was simply to signal to Techdirt that hardcore gamers (or 'real' or 'insane' - take your pick but we're pretty numerous whatever you call us) REAAALLLY don't like Gamasutra, so stories involving Gamasutra will tend to not get spread compared to stories not involving Gamasutra.

I'm guessing hardcore gamers* are a pretty small part of Techdirt's audience, so I doubt they're worried about that.

* yes lots of us play video games often, but I think we're talking about the people who follow video game journalism, watch twitch videos, know the names of professional gamers, etc.
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nasch (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 9:23am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
That said, what I am asking you and you are failing to provide is reasons why is it poison.

To be fair, he did mention in his second comment that he has no intention of explaining himself.
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nasch (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 9:31am

Re: The fatal flaw...
Of course the real weakness of such systems is that they make one huge, erroneous assumption:

Bad guys can't change their names or use different ones.

IMO that isn't the fundamental weakness, but it points to it: it's not a list of people, it's a list of names. That means that even if the dangerous people are correctly identified, false positives are guaranteed, in addition to the problem of changing names or aliases leading to false negatives.
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Winston Smith, 16 Feb 2016 @ 9:58am

Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
Well said. It is theatre of the absurd. Like Enron paying actors to act like busy employees whenever media reps were touring.

Insane policies by insane people.

Meanwhile.

Here in Salt Lake City, meter maids (mostly beefy males with pony tails, loud mouths to yell at people walking outside the lines, ride around in gangs on bikes ( it takes three of them to photograph and ticket a car) - all wearing jackets emblazoned with the words, "Compliance Enforcement."
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 10:07am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
The reason he has no intention of explaining himself is that he has nothing to say. Now if he were a politician he could spend hours explaining that he has nothing to say, but he is not a politician. He is a 'real' gamer, as in no one else who plays games is also a gamer. As a real gamer he can't have anything to say as he only plays games. Like the one he is playing here.
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Dirkmaster (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 10:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

While I once was a gamer, I've long outgrown that label. However, I suspect that this all revolves around that crapfest that is known as Gamergate.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 10:37am

Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
http://i.imgur.com/y0VDjmq.png

Hitpiece they had, written by David gallant.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 10:55am

Re: The fatal flaw...
Bureaucratic CYA.

When something, somewhere, blows up and some foreign-name is attached, and the next Woodward and Bernstein wannabe digs up that name in one obscure email: heads roll as Congress tut-tuts about 'Intelligence Failures.'

Solution: Put every name that may conceivably show up in anything that begins with "T" on a watch list. Exclude names of celebrities, elected and appointed officials, and anyone else that actually matters so they don't run to the press and embarrass you.
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Y Pennog Coch (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 10:58am

re: Gamasutra is poison
Ye Clipping Fogs, this is a most unusual car-crash of a thread. Doesn't fit any category of trolling I've ever seen before. You throw a cat on the table, and then you pick it up and throw it down again, and then you repeat until the poor thing is dead and everybody at the table gives in and talks about your wretched dead cat. I'm going to christen this the "Chopped Dead Cat and Ham" Strategy.

Meanwhile, hundreds (thousands?) of innocent Americans _still_ can't access financial services and _still_ get extra attention at the airport. But oh no let's not talk about that.

Anonymous Gamasutra-hater, if this is your ethics then I'm glad you're not in journalism.
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Spaceman Spiff (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 12:47pm

What's in a name?
I was once "detained" by ICE when returning from a vacation in Mexico. They didn't say why, but it was obvious that my name was similar or the same as some Irish "terrorist" (there are a lot of Boyles in Ireland with the first name of "Bill" or "William"). After a few minutes and perusal of my passport, they apologized and let me go.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 12:56pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
They don't "believe" it as something they would ever consciously admit to. No, it is about summarizing the motives that determine their actions. Just like islamaphobes never outright say they are "afraid of muslims," they just do and say all kinds of stupid, irrational things that they rationalize with the thinnest of justifications.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
> Too bad I haven't said anything like that.

Someone makes a humorous characterization of your point of view and you retreat to literalism. The funniest thing here is how guys like you are always arguing that the people you don't like are thin-skinned and yet you guys are by far the most thin-skinned of any one.

Its like how the most virulent homophobes always turn out to be closeted gays trying to convince themselves they are straight by attacking anyone who is publicly gay.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
> Islamaphobia isn't actually a thing. ( A phobia is an irrational fear

Let me clue you into something that you should have learned in high-school. Words often have more than the literal meaning of their components. When you try to dictionary-pedant away the entire concept that word represents to the people using the word you are just admitting you are wrong.

> Just because you have a name with historical Islamic associations doen't mean that you are a Muslim.

Lol, more pedantry for the fail. Just because there are corner cases don't change the common case.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:22pm

On paper this was a simple system.
The magic technology would automagically check the people signing up against the list and it would know who was bad and who was good.
The problem is this tech only exists as a plot device in movies. They expect the problem will be solved by someone else and no one would object to keeping "bad people" from being able to do more bad things.

They add all sorts of names to these lists, because in their world they've never met different people with the same name (other than those Smith guys they see at the hotels). Ignoring people who mentioned this might be a stupid system, they built it... then it HAS to keep running because "bad things". Isn't being delayed/denied things a small price to pay to be safe? People line up in cattle lines and hand over their children to be felt up by peopled hired from the tops of pizza boxes because a name matched.

This is more crap law passed as kneejerk reactions, which causes way more problems than it will ever solve. One might like to note that this list kept 2 people from using services without hassle, yet bankers laundered huge piles of cash and didn't even miss lunch.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I don't even know what Gamasutra is. I'm going to assume for the sake of argument and because of your reaction to it that it's basically Kotaku (which I already avoid).

But my qualifications as a "real gamer" shouldn't be in questions because of on specific instance in which I don't tic your checkbox.
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tqk (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
Just because there are corner cases don't change the common case.

The corner cases cause the common solution to fail. Just because something looks like a duck doesn't mean it's a duck. It could even be a decoy; not even remotely comparable to a duck.
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bilbo, 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:42pm

look at that
the little troll hi-jacked this thread, it is to laugh
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:49pm

Re: If it can't manage that simple task
Well first, it isn't a simple task. Further this is probably a relatively small blip in terms of the scale of this problem. It is probable that somebody innocent has taken a hellfire missile in the ass courtesy of a badly written regexp by now.

Though we ARE getting better at it. During WWII, there were whole towns that were leveled by accident. (oops)

No worries though. My expectation is that terrorist keyword sampling will eventually be integrated directly into Amazon Echo (or an equivalent device) user profiles... Say the rights words, and zap. Your dead.

It'll certainly create a whole new hobby for people who are into swatting, or hacking wrt54's. the fun thing is how many people in privileged positions don't realize those microphones are ALWAYS on. Judges, lawyers, shrinks etc, are keeping these in their offices. They auto update. Duh...

Who'd have thought during the cold war that all you had to do to create a global sensor net, was to make a little box that told people how awesome they were all day.
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nasch (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 1:51pm

Re: re: Gamasutra is poison

Meanwhile, hundreds (thousands?) of innocent Americans _still_ can't access financial services and _still_ get extra attention at the airport. But oh no let's not talk about that.

If you go back and read carefully, you'll find numerous people talking about that.
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Richard (profile), 16 Feb 2016 @ 2:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
Let me clue you into something that you should have learned in high-school. Words often have more than the literal meaning of their components.

This is true with "natural" words - however when you are dealing with words that have been devised to serve a political purpose then it makes sense to deconstruct them in order counter the purposes of their inventors.
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 3:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Thank you, literally-the-only-person-who-attempted-to-refute-what-I-said-instead-of-an-internet-mirage-of-their -own-making.
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 3:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
See, that's the problem. I read those words and they seem to make sense on their own terms, but I just can't buy that you genuinely believe that there really are a bunch of gamers out there who are subconsciously that terrified of 'women'. Which leaves me to conclude that this is just something you want me to believe for your own reasons, whatever they may be. And for some reason, you can't perceive how preposterous that sounds.
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 3:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
You may find it humorous when people pretend you said the opposite of what you said for the purpose of 'characterization'. I find it brazenly unethical. I guess that's just the difference between you and me.

What I do find humorous is the way you are accusing of me of being 'thin-skinned' in the course of labelling me as the sort of person who calls people 'thin-skinned' even though I did nothing of the kind. It's amazingly easy to call out hypocrisy when you give yourself licence to just invent what a person believes, and then invent something contradictory for them to believe, and then point out how they're contradictory. Right?

Keep on keeping on...
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 3:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
I hear ya. It's weird though the way people keep saying that identifying as a 'gamer' is immature, and yet as soon as you imply that there is a such thing as a 'real gamer', they are all up in arms as if they've been excluded from something important. Telling, that.
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 3:48am

Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
They publish that kind of personal muckraking? Wow they're even more poisonous than I thought.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"I just can't buy that you genuinely believe that there really are a bunch of gamers out there who are subconsciously that terrified of 'women'."

There really are such groups, since gaming is now a mainstream activity and the kinds of misogynist people who fear women (especially powerful ones) are undoubtedly within that group. As are people who don't fear women and, of course, women themselves. Similarly, there are people who hate women who never play games. That's what happens when an activity becomes mainstream, you get a lot of people, good and bad, in the group who perform the activity. Not a problem unless you have a need to define yourself solely by that activity.

But, this is what happens when you utterly refuse to state what the hell you're blathering on about. People have to make guesses, and since you refused to clarify any actual facts, you can't really be annoyed that people came to the wrong conclusion.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
""Him" is me. I'm the same anonymous gamer"

No, I knew that (the snowflake icons show you're on the same IP between those 2 comments), I just wasn't sure if you were trying to play games by referring in the 3rd person like that.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"save Gamasutra's bottom line"

Are they in need of saving? I'm going to guess you'll give the same refusal to answer that question as you have to the one about why any normal person needs to dislike them.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
"The talking points are things people say I said that I never said"

You said absolutely nothing in this thread, from the first comment. People were asking you what you were blathering on about, that's not a "talking point", that's an honest question.

"As for the most logical question, it has yet to be asked"

Is it "What time did you remember to take your meds?"
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Actually yes, I can be annoyed that people insist on speculating about motives that they admit they know nothing about, throwing smears around in the process and thus revealing nothing but their own biases. That annoys a lot of people, actually.
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Niall (profile), 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The fatal flaw...
Is it an Aereo duck?
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
It was a very ordinary sentence, there is no need to be so suspcious.
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
Why are you so insistent on knowing the reasons why I hate Gamasutra? Why does it matter to you so much, Mr. 'Normal'?
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Anonymous Gamer, 17 Feb 2016 @ 4:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
If I've said "absolutely nothing", then everything you and others have accused me of must have been invented out of whole cloth, so you are hoist on your own highly illogical petard.
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nasch (profile), 17 Feb 2016 @ 7:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gamasutra is poison
It's weird though the way people keep saying that identifying as a 'gamer' is immature, and yet as soon as you imply that there is a such thing as a 'real gamer', they are all up in arms as if they've been excluded from something important.

Probably not the same people saying those two things.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Feb 2016 @ 12:42pm

Re:
Easily. Really easily. "Eh, not my problem" is easy to fall into, especially if you're busy.

This goes double for "undifferentiated routine stuff" type things like account management. Very few applications do anything really unusual for account management (which is why things like facebook login are practical), so why spend time looking at it closely?
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