Police Unions Head To DC To Ask New President, Attorney General To Stop Making Cops Respect The Constitution
from the what's-best-for-cops-vs.-what's-best-for-the-nation dept
Here it comes -- the exact sort of response Trump was looking for when he issued his "Standing Up for Our Law Enforcement Community" edict during his first couple of days in office.
One of the fundamental rights of every American is to live in a safe community. A Trump Administration will empower our law enforcement officers to do their jobs and keep our streets free of crime and violence. The Trump Administration will be a law and order administration. President Trump will honor our men and women in uniform and will support their mission of protecting the public. The dangerous anti-police atmosphere in America is wrong. The Trump Administration will end it.
This is Trump's invitation to law enforcement agencies to come to him with their grievances. A promise that they will be heard, ABOVE the voices of the people they're supposed to be serving. And here they come, right on cue.
Steve Loomis, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, had a blunt message for Donald Trump during a meeting in September: court-ordered reforms aimed at curbing police abuses in the midwestern city are not working.
Loomis and two other attendees said Trump seemed receptive to Loomis's concerns that federally monitored police reforms introduced during the Obama administration in some cities in response to complaints of police bias and abuse are ineffective and impose an onerous burden on police forces.
Police unions want DOJ consent decrees rolled back, heavily-altered, or done away with altogether. A review of DOJ consent decrees shows law enforcement agencies hit with them have participated in years of unconstitutional policing, engaging in everything from discrimination to routine deployment of excessive force.
The decrees -- while seldom completely effective -- target pervasive mass violations of citizens' civil liberties. They address the symptoms and attempt to apply a cure. But the problems are deep-seated, based on years of us v. them policing and a culture that actively protects its worst members.
Unions are part of the problem. They are definitely not part of the solution. In Philadelphia, the police union managed to derail an officer-involved-shooting investigation board recommended by the DOJ, removing all independent outside investigators and replacing them with police officers and police officials.
The DOJ's long, thoroughly-damning report on what may be America's worst police force -- the Chicago PD -- notes that police unions have long stood in the way of improving the department.
Here’s a list of other CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement) provisions that the feds said hamper investigations of police misconduct and should be change:.
- The contracts allow officers accused of misconduct or involved in shootings to delay interviews.
- The agreements mandate disclosure of a complainant’s identity to an accused officer before questioning, which is problematic because many complainants fear police retaliation.
- The agreements limit investigations into misconduct complaints filed more than five years after an incident, and requires the destruction of most disciplinary records older than five years.
“The City fails to conduct any investigation of nearly half of police misconduct complaints,” the report said. “In order to address these ignored cases, the City must modify its own policies, and work with the unions to address certain CBA provisions, and in the meantime, it must aggressively investigate all complaints to the extent authorized under these contracts.”
The last thing most police unions want is more accountability. This is why union heads are in DC, talking to Trump. Consent decrees attempt to force law enforcement agencies to act constitutionally, which is apparently something officers (or at least their reps) are unwilling to do.
The police groups want to discuss the decrees with Jeff Sessions, Trump's designee for attorney general who has voiced criticism of them, although any renegotiation would be legally complicated because all parties as well as a federal judge must approve any changes.
"There are certainly decrees that are inartfully applied that we'd like to see revisited," said Jim Pasco, the head of the Fraternal Order of Police, the nation's largest police union with 330,000 members. It endorsed Trump in September and has worked with Sessions, a Republican senator from Alabama, for years while lobbying Congress for pro-police policies.
"We've always found him a man who's willing to listen to alternatives to a previously charted course," Pasco said of Sessions.
"Inartfully applied" just means "applied." The DOJ has "inartfully" attempted to get officers in numerous police departments to stop beating and tasing individuals simply because they weren't immediately compliant or responded disrespectfully. It has attempted to set a reasonable suspicion standard for police stops and searches. It has attempted to prevent officers from acting in a retaliatory manner against people exercising their First Amendment rights. It has attempted to scale back excessive removals of citizens' life and liberty by law enforcement officers. It has largely failed to do so because it encounters massive amounts of resistance, much of it led by police unions.
And here come the unions to undo what little good has been done. The union reps say things like "inartfully applied decrees" and "wastes of money" but what they're really saying is they would rather not have to be limited by the rights of others. And, according to Trump's own statement, the President himself has little respect for the rights of non-badge-wearing individuals.
The only good news is that -- despite Trump's "law and order" pitch and AG Sessions' general contempt for Americans and their rights -- it will take much more than some union sales pitches to undo consent decrees already in force. The Attorney General may be able to prevent the DOJ's Civil Rights division from pursuing nearly as many agreements in the future, but it's likely any attempt to scale back in-place agreements would face an uphill battle in federal court.
But this very likely means the DOJ isn't going to be nearly as interested in investigating law enforcement agencies for the next four years. The DOJ handed out 24 consent decrees during the eight years Obama was in office. It issued less than half as many while Bush was president. A president who believes not liking the police is "wrong" isn't going to be too interested in having a government agency find even more reasons for people not to like police officers.
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Filed Under: civil liberties, civil rights, consent decree, law and order, police, police abuses
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So, yeah, "The dangerous anti-police atmosphere in America is wrong" and he is gonna end it. Too bad if some thousands need to be abused, beaten and possibly die in the process as long as his WASP friends are 'protected'.
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yea... like we have never had one of those politicians before. turns out we just finished an administration with the same distorted, bigoted view of the world.
Know what else? This is not new either? There used to be slavery in the States... I wonder if those guys had narrow, distorted, bigoted views of the world?
It is when the people have distorted bigoted views of the world that these "leaders" are allowed to gain power. Let me tell you how much distortion and bigotry rule this land... no wait... I don't think you are able to understand this yet.
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?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????
"There used to be slavery in the States... I wonder if those guys had narrow, distorted, bigoted views of the world?"
By today's standards yes. For the time, the ones suffering from such problems were the ones that kept insisting in slavery when the rest of the world were already moving away from it and people actively rejected the practice at large. So in a word, yes.
"Let me tell you how much distortion and bigotry rule this land... no wait... I don't think you are able to understand this yet."
No need to tell me, I already live in a nation that is a hostage of its own slavery-driven past. The positive thing in the US is that the bigotry, the racism is pretty apparent. Here it's ingrained, rooted inside society to the point it takes effort to see it's here and it's worse than it appears. Actually, our Government is as bad as Trump's but we don't have nearly as much impact on the rest of the world as the US has.
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We don't have enough time yet to know this for certain. I completely see Trumps rise as a natural result of Obama's administration and the Media's love affair with the Democratic Party. The only thing I do appreciate about the Media is their willingness to quickly point out the bullshit that the Republicans keep trying to pull.
You are right, the US has a huge impact on the world, and too much of it not very positive sadly. As a conservative I easily recognize how willing we are to allow businesses to rape other nations including our own in the pursuit of the almighty dollar. As a liberal I easily recognize how willing we are to allow racism to be used in a silly attempt to fight racism.
One thing I do recognize is that humanity has an apathy problem. In USA the women are willing to go on a massive march against Trump, but barely do anything for a rape victim being harassed and thrown into jail "for her protection" all because people wanted to go on vacation instead of doing their duty to keep her safe.
We are far more willing to jump on "perceived" injustices while completely ignoring the actual provable injustices that continue to occur unabated.
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That may be so, but disliking Dems or the media is NOT a justification for electing a buffoon into office.
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You have it wrong. "There used to be slavery in the known WORLD..." would be more appropriate. When one says it like the way you did, it is used to sound like ONLY America had slavery, when it used to be a way of life in the world then.
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I have not seen that. Can you list some areas where Trump has done this?
Actually, he can end it by requiring ALL who serve within our government to follow the supreme contract that they are all bound by in writing, by Oath.
You sound as if you are one of those people who believe that the USA is a "democracy". It is not, never has been one, will never be one. The USA, America, is a constitutional republic with all the duties and authority of those who serve within our governments - state and federal - are in writing for all to know and see IF they would only read.
"A constitution is designated as a supreme enactment, a fundamental act of legislation by the people of the state. A constitution is legislation direct from the people acting in their sovereign capacity, while a statute is legislation from their representatives, subject to limitations prescribed by the superior authority." Ellingham v. Dye, 231 U. S. 250.
"The basic purpose of a written constitution has a two-fold aspect, first securing [not granting] to the people of certain unchangeable rights and remedies, and second, the curtailment of unrestricted governmental activity within certain defined spheres." Du Pont v. Du Pont, 85 A 724.
"The constitution of a state is stable and permanent, not to be worked upon the temper of the times, not to rise and fall with the tide of events. Notwithstanding the competition of opposing interests, and the violence of contending parties, it remains firm and immoveable, as a mountain amidst the strife and storms, or a rock in the ocean amidst the raging of the waves." Vanhorne v. Dorrance, supra.
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As I noted the last time you asked, the 'You must visit and read every article even if you didn't want to' coding is obviously working, so that's your answer.
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Wrong right out of the gate. I agree that Black Lives Matter is a destructive, dangerous, hypocritical organization and that the reflexive protest to every "outrage" is dishonest and counterproductive, but part of the whole point of electing Trump was to remind the government of who works for whom.
Fake rights are the language of the left looking to expand the government at the expense of the citizen.
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This is indeed a hallmark of the left with the penumbras and emanations bull-crap.
The constitution is crystal clear. Those like Obama and Trump will be 100% relying on the ignorance of people like you to advance their agendas. So far... it has been a success.
Trump is clearly anti 1st in the same way Obama was anti 2nd. Both parties are ready and willing to sacrifice the constitution, and every citizen that voted these two clowns in get what they deserve.
I am just sad that I have to sit here and watch this nation destroy itself when there is clearly another path.
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I like to think of myself as an original liberal, but lean right. I don't like Trump OR Obama. Neither of them advance Liberty, they just create more laws and regulations to step on the little guy while making grand speeches and publicly masturbate over the thought of themselves. Both Trump and Obama are productions of hubris and foolishness that no nation can survive for long.
I am one of the very rare people that borrow from all ism's... every ism has a pro and a con... but Liberty is the corner stone of my political philosophy.
Thomas Jefferson said it best...
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
The democrats and their love of regulatory capture and government corruption does not serve this end so I hate it.
The republicans and their love of big business as the sacrifice of the people does not serve this end so I hate it.
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The republicans and their love of big business as the sacrifice of the people does not serve this end so I hate it."
As with most things, the answer is somewhere in the middle.
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"Fake rights are the language of the left looking to expand the government at the expense of the citizen."
This is the part I'm not getting. You claim to be somewhere in the middle, but you're still espousing the nebulous "left" as an enemy, even on an article that would clearly be anti-liberal (advancing the powers of the police over the civil rights of the people).
"Those like Obama and Trump will be 100% relying on the ignorance of people like you to advance their agendas. So far... it has been a success."
You're also attacking other people for questioning you, which doesn't seem much like a way to discuss, does it? I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary - I did vote for Obama, and believe me, I did not appreciate what he did in office - and I'm more than a bit offended that apparently they are relying on my 'ignorance'?
Attacking "the left" or "the right" is not the answer. Attacking the POLICIES is the answer, here. And doing so in a reasonable, researched, and non-dismissive way.
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I have no problem with people questioning me... the attack was directly over and ignorance they made apparent. Trump used to hang with Hillary and the gang back in the day, I am not so quickly sold over his "conservative" credentials. Trump has riled both Republican and Conservative in different ways. I would say Trump is more of a RINO and in reality some sort of Independent.
The two political parties have only one objective... the separation of the Nation. It does not matter if that is their true aim, it just happens to be the only possible outcome.
"Attacking "the left" or "the right" is not the answer. Attacking the POLICIES is the answer, here. And doing so in a reasonable, researched, and non-dismissive way."
How do you avoid attacking either side while attacking the policies? They are inexorably linked. Any attempt to correct someone or something can be easily perceived as an attack. I am saying people just need to learn to stop taking attacks on their policies or politics so personal! We are turning into a nation of sissies and simpletons where everyone falls apart at the first perceived sign of an insult, offense, or emotional injury.
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"How do you avoid attacking either side while attacking the policies? They are inexorably linked."
Do you see the contradiction in your own words here? You are saying that the policies are inexorably linked to the "sides" involved, while also saying the man in charge isn't on the "side" he may be on, or on either "side" after all.
You attack the policies by attacking the policies. In this case, by pointing out that expanding police powers above the civil rights of American citizens, and ignoring a plethora of evidence suggesting that the police are already violating the Constitution and peoples' rights, is bad policy that should not be supported. Make blog posts, spread the word - as MM often says, the counter to bad speech is more speech. If actual bills come down supporting this policy, write to your congresscritters encouraging them to stand against those bills. No "left" or "right" required; just say "this is bad policy that is harming the nation, here is why, here are my researched sources." Much as Techdirt has been doing pretty much ever since I've read them.
"The two political parties have only one objective... the separation of the Nation. It does not matter if that is their true aim, it just happens to be the only possible outcome."
Then the answer is calm, reasonable, rational discussion that acknowledges the arguments of those who disagree with you and presents a logical, evidence-based (where possible) reasoning behind your positions.
If ignorance is the problem, you are making it worse every time you talk about "teh left."
Or "teh right," too.
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Example, supporting regulation in vain attempts to control businesses when history has proven that businesses just buy those regulations.
"Then the answer is calm, reasonable, rational discussion that acknowledges the arguments of those who disagree with you and presents a logical, evidence-based (where possible) reasoning behind your positions."
Most people are not capable of calm, reasonable, or rational discussion. They much prefer to either directly insulting others, or passively aggressively insult them WITHOUT any real follow up or discussion. I really don't have a problem with ad hominem attacks, I just treat them like flair or an overly excited speaker. It is the end result of their thinking that concerns me. And yes, I do not intentionally mean to target ONLY the left per se... I see the ignorance as a global problem, equally shared by all. I am no exception to this problem, however I do consider myself to be less ignorant than most. No one knows everything and I have revised my own ideas about politics based on a lot of peoples feedback. But I have also hardened on some as well which is a big turn off for many.
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I fundamentally disagree with this statement.
"Most people are not capable of calm, reasonable, or rational discussion."
Then don't be most people.
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How you live your life, eat your food, wipe your own ass is affected by your politics. How you vote is affected by your politics and how you vote affects everyone. Some people are willing to harm for them.
A person IS their politics. You attack them, you attack their politics for their actions were a result of them. If you attack their politics then you attack them, for they are the culmination of all that they are!
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If you mean that in the context of social justice then you are plum out of your gourd.
Any far right or left seizing power will result in war. A coward invites war as much a bully incites one. All that is necessary is for people to do nothing.
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I remember alot of people being surprised by this a while back.
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I understand that is impossible to get an unbiased opinion but it gets difficult to use labels properly when you add elements outside of everyone elses scope of knowledge. Don't overestimate peoples ability to understand. We all have limits to our knowledge and understanding.
So yea, another nations left may make our left look right, but that is neither here nor there. I need to be more concerned with the political parties that directly affect me, I leave the indirect affects to those in power to deal with.
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Please wait while I recover from hysterical laughter.
*deep breath*
You don't know what you are talking about.
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He might very well be hard core right and just like all of the other politicians lying out of his teeth. I am just saying that Trump used to hold many leftist ideas like socialized healthcare. In fact does he really intend to repeal ACA or is he just going to be like every other Politician and rework it to match his ideas? Once power is obtained in Washington they are loathe to give it up... instead they just co-opt it to fit into their own personal idea of how society should operate further removing liberty as the sycophants cheer him on!
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...but this isn't a history thread, so I'll leave it there. :p
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I do agree with that statement, but it is also not a complete one. The problem is more with the parties, not the axis or ideals that each idea arrives on or which party implements. I have no problem with people applying labels to things, only children hate it. I just do not like labels being misapplied.
Parties have only one singular objective, the usurpation of the will of the people. Just like George Washington said... the pendulum swing that occurs with each change of power creates a sharper spirit of revenge until we destroy ourselves.
The isms... well most of those will always be just fine, provided the administrators of each ism is a good person. Since that is not likely to exist, instead we should focus on liberty to minimized the damage those isms will cause to the people by bad actors elected in by those people.
Here is a small treat... Congress can easily put Trump in his place, but they will not. Why will they not? Because "the people" have made it clear that they want a King, not a congress. They want to vote in a president that will do everything they want done regardless of congress. Congress just needs to do enough work to please their local voters even if they resort to corruption to accomplish those things. I only see faux outrage by "the people". Change the diaper that is congress first and then you can put a stop to the likes of Trump or Obama! They hold the majority of power in this Nation when it comes to rule of law. The executive just executes the law, and the Judiciary determines it.
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Example:
SECURE FENCE ACT OF 2006. Ratified by Congress, signed into law in 2006. (Oct 26, 2006 signed by G. Bush) Supported and voted for by Dems & Repubs, was mostly democratic legislature. DHS received 1.2 Billion to fund the wall that was never built. Where is that money? So why was this already planned in, voted for, funded but not built wall, used to agitate the people, to cause delusions of who was doing what, etc?
“This bill will help protect the American people. This bill will make our borders more secure. It is an important step toward immigration reform."
- President George W. Bush, 10/26/06
Today, President Bush Signed The Secure Fence Act - An Important Step Forward In Our Nation's Efforts To Control Our Borders And Reform Our Immigration System. Earlier this year, the President laid out a strategy for comprehensive immigration reform. The Secure Fence Act is one part of this reform, and the President will work with Congress to finish the job and pass the remaining elements of this strategy.
The Secure Fence Act Builds On Progress Securing The Border.
(end quote)
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They can't, as that is all they've got.
They lack any meaningful ideas, all they have is hate for others - which at times is actually self hate, but they do not recognize it for what it is.
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It cannot be gotten over, because people get defensive or have to say... but but but... your side does this evil as a retort.
So... no... don't get over it... lets work through it instead.
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regarding the other comments. about lacking any meaningful ideas and only having hate makes it appear to me that you have no intention of resolving anything only that they just need to "get over it"... do you see the point I was trying to make and why I though of it that way?
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you are right that is is indeed a real challenge.
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Not sure I would call it hate, more like disdain
.... for all politics.
So, I imagine that all politicians ridicule me, or so you claim - I suppose it could be. I can see them upon their high horses wagging their fingers at the poor impoverished serfs ... telling them to work harder and they will be successful. The idiots think the serfs believe that shit.
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Real rights: not being detained or searched without a warrant based on probable cause - 4th Amendment
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Unions needs to go! Unions should have never been allowed into Government type jobs in the first place.
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Last I checked, teachers aren't authorized to shoot students.
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there are fates worse than death...
so yea... you missed the point.
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What is the virtue of a union? I.E., what good were they formed to accomplish?
What are the issues with unions?
Critically: In what method can we achieve the virtue achieved by unions while eliminating or mitigating the issues?
To simply say out of hand that unions should be abolished, without considering what virtue they achieve and how to capture that virtue - or at least to reasonably explain why the virtue is not worth the cost - seems short-sighted. Unions didn't start as corrupt, self-serving enterprises; they were formed for certain express purposes, as a reaction to the treatment of workers.
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Should the will of the voters be "we want to pay less taxes, but have more police officers, who work longer hours," should police simply work longer hours for less pay? How about teachers? Government employees of all stripes? Their job is not to do as we ask, because what we ask can be unreasonable. Their job is to do their job; protecting, educating, ensuring the continued operation of the government. These are not robots in these positions - they are people, same as you and I, voters in their own right, with families to support and happiness to pursue.
So I will ask again: What good are unions doing? What bad are unions causing? How can we best redesign things to keep the good and mitigate or remove the bad?
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"The will of the voters should be first not a police union. The will of the voters should be first not a teachers union."
Those lines dictate that the virtue and purpose of a Union is to put their own before the voters. Which is also the issue here.
Are you looking for expansion on them? I figured it was self explanatory. Just like the case with the police. They murder an innocent... then they get representation and special treatment and protection. Guess what a civilian gets... a strip search and rights removed and a mug shot shat all over the media. The union furthers the travesty of injustice that the government visits upon their people. Where is the same regard for the innocent? I assure you... there is none.
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I am not looking for an expansion, I am looking for consideration of what they actually provide (a check against unfair or prohibitive working conditions - something that *is still needed* for public-sector workers, at least IMO), consideration of the problems with unions (specifically in this case, that they are trying to subvert the law to protect their members, the "thin blue line" bit), and a discussion of what could be changed or put in place to ensure the first while removing the second.
Yes, there are issues with current police unions. Yes, they are very corrupt, yes, they are protecting their bad apples which is thoroughly spoiling the barrel. However, given that we have Donald Trump in office, something tells me the "will of the voters" wouldn't be a whole lot better. Instead, we should look into what we could support that would A) protect public employees from unfair or prohibitive work conditions (reading back up to the "vote for lower taxes and longer police hours" bit), and B) be more proactive in enforcing regulations on police conduct and weeding out the "bad apples."
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A dictionary might help here.
one of the definitions of virtue
"a good or useful quality of a thing."
I am specifically referring to the "useful quality of the union" not implying that it HAS virtue in the "behavior showing high moral standards." definition of the word.
"However, given that we have Donald Trump in office, something tells me the "will of the voters" wouldn't be a whole lot better." Obama was in office and had the chance to do something about it but did nothing. As the executive he could have easily directed his administration to federally charge them with crimes against the constitution. I don't see the reason to single out Trumpalo here because there are many other presidents in the past that have done this exact same thing without much outcry. That said, I do agree that I see the police state getting worse under Trump, but it got worse under Obama too, and the Bushes, and Bill, and Reagan... etc.
" Instead, we should look into what we could support that would A) protect public employees from unfair or prohibitive work conditions (reading back up to the "vote for lower taxes and longer police hours" bit), and B) be more proactive in enforcing regulations on police conduct and weeding out the "bad apples."
Sorry, that is the job of the turds we elect into office. We should not be busy attending to every problem the police have or give, we should be calling our elected and giving THEM the ear full and vote them out if they don't handle business. This is the key failing point of most American citizens. They don't know which throat to choke, when in fact is often their own for remaining willfully ignorant and doing nothing when they could have done something.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Unions
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Unions
On another note teacher's unions have more of a claim to a legitimate function over the voter's will than police unions because they have an objective truth to protect as a duty whereas the police don't and already have ample power over the public.
Which brings to mind the paradox of academic tenure:
In higher education if you have tenure chances are you don't really need it - because you have already established yourself in the field well enough that you probably don't need the protection.
In lower education if tenure is granted chances are you don't need it but if tenure isn't granted chances are that you do need it - because if the area respects education enough to grant tenure then they aren't the type to flip their shit over teaching evolution, sex education, objective history, or other upsetting facts that parents don't want taught to their children.
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Well, the USA is about to find out that the government and the citizens work for the corporate elite.
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There's no left in the US.
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Anyone who would vote for Trump for this reason is an idiot.
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Re: Re: Voting for Trump
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Re: Re: Re: Voting for Trump
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Re: Re: Re: Voting for Trump
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That's where folks like you keep falling down--it wasn't Trump or the guy you really want, it was Trump or Clinton.
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State funding for political parties to enable them to gain publicity would also help.
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You: "Fake rights are the language of the left looking to expand the government at the expense of the citizen."
Your interpretation is nonsensical. Trump (who I doubt has ever been accused of being a lefty) is clearly using this language to justify scaling back government regulation over the police.
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Trump is trying to scale back government regulation over the police? You are aware, are you not, that the police are a government agency. Talk about nonsensical!
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I bet 100% that if Bush came up with ACA they would have been all over the news about how terrible this would harm the minorities and increase their costs.
If Obama was doing what Trump was doing they would have heralded a new age in democracy where reduced regulation would allow supervisors to finally do something about those dirty cops the BLM keeps hooting about.
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This is so true in almost all cases.
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Unions that are allowed to force people to join them for employment are equally as counter productive. Unions should be 100% free to be formed and die as required so that the people can fight back against corruption and abuse.
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Complete bullshit.
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I think the police unions are doing just a bang up job of extensively proving me correct. You have a large mountain to clime Mr. Unfriendly person.
So how about you go and fuck yourself?
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It's kind of cute that most people are fast to deny basic rights to public servants and then complain when the Government doesn't work. Would you work for free? Me neither.
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No wait... that is not necessary, there are already too many examples for use before I expire.
No union for the public will ever benefit the nation, it will only ever work to subvert the will of the people. Whether the will of the people is wrong or right is its own problem and cannot be resolved with a union. If the will of the people is to abuse public sector workers then those workers can easy punish the people for it. have you never been to the DMV? How about wrongly accused of a crime? I have been wrong accused before and let me tell you it sucks bawls. Which side do you think the union will take? The innocent or the people they are paid to protect? The recent news should be more than enough to prove my point extensively.
There are innocents in jail because of people like you, can you rest easy at night?
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Never dismiss the human capacity to visit ones own torment on others as a perverted form of justice. This logic also extends from a common trait where juries like to render guilty verdicts because they are certain that even if the accused is truly innocent of THIS crime, they feel that all of the other things discussed during the trial was worthy of punishment as well.
This reminds me of to a line from Genghis Khan.
“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”
The police have this exact attitude, had the citizen behaved themselves and did as they are told "regardless of their rights" they would not be there having to deal with them.
There are more than enough examples on file where the Police have allowed their prejudices interfere and put the wrongly accused in jail.
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MultiRe: Justice
...I guess my problem here is that your comment seems to be lauding this sort of punishment as right and proper, the way that the police are intended to balance the will of the people. I *hope* that I'm wrong about that?
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Re: MultiRe: Justice
The Police are not intended to balance the will of the People, they are here to serve it by enforcing the law. If the will of the People is bad, then why serve it? Yes, I know that many people are easily disposed to suffer evils that are sufferable but they should resist them. If the people cannot retain the services of people willing to serve them, then they will change. They do not need to resort to punishing people even though they will, they do not need to resort to working to create a special classification for officers of the law even though they will. And because they will, we don't need them because they do not serve the public, and the only thing any component of government should be serving is the People.
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Re: Re: MultiRe: Justice
So, in the interest of clarification: How would you like to see this situation resolved? We outlaw unionization for public employees, and then... what?
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That is one potential answer. They can also go to the press and express their grievances or go and protest. They don't need a union that is legitimized or recognized by the state to do these things.
"Are you arguing free-market supply and demand for public order? That seems to be rather short-sighted, in a "burn it all down" way."
Yes, there should be a free-market for that. Public order is everyone's responsibility but the Officers Job. Do you get what I am after here? The Police should be an extension of the will of the people, not just Agents of Law and Order because if that is all they are, then they legally free to become tyrants as long as the law allows it which is occurring, and despite the will of the people.
though I am not sure why you think we should just move to the burn it all down stage, a bit over dramatic there don't you think?
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(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
Your first fail.
"Unions for public sector employees should be 100% against the law. They serve no purpose other than to combat the will of the people"
Your second fail.
"So how about you go and fuck yourself?"
Your third fail.
"Unions that are allowed to force people to join them for employment are equally as counter productive. Unions should be 100% free to be formed and die as required so that the people can fight back against corruption and abuse."
Your 4th fail.
Unions in general are a great idea and most of them i.e Plumbers, electricians, IATSE, etc. are decent organizations that look out for their members. The two Unions that are continually problematic are Police and Teachers.
Your blanket statement of:
"Unions for public sector employees should be 100% against the law. They serve no purpose other than to combat the will of the people"
shows a complete lack of understanding in how a Union works.
So... yeah... complete bullshit.
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Right for the wrong reason
Steve Loomis, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, had a blunt message for Donald Trump during a meeting in September: court-ordered reforms aimed at curbing police abuses in the midwestern city are not working.
He's actually completely right here, 'court-ordered reforms aimed at curbing police abuse' aren't working, the problem is the reason he's right is because of him and those like him, and the police in general, not because they impose an 'unfair burden' on police.
When you're trying to reign in rampant abuse the efforts are only going to be as effective as the enforcement and punishments handed out, and given the government and police have shown absolutely no interest in keeping the police in check, any 'reforms' are wasted, as if police don't feel like following them they simply don't, safe in the knowledge that the worst they'll have to deal with is some finger wagging.
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Re: Right for the wrong reason
He played basketball with some kids? That's great! But he also looked the other way while another officer planted drugs on someone.
He helped deliver a baby? That's great! But he also allowed another officer to taser someone as punishment for mouthing off.
He bought shoes for a homeless man? That's great! But he also refused to testify against an officer who threatened, abused, harassed, and extorted money from prostitutes.
The police do more self-promotion than they do self-policing.
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should be...
"A cop who covers for or gives pass too a bad cop IS a bad cop."
all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. You don't have to cover to be a bad cop... all you have to do to become bad is do nothing.
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Re: Re: Right for the wrong reason
A good cop who covers for a bad cop IS a bad cop.
Exactly so, this is why despite believing even now that most cops aren't overtly abusive and are likely decent enough people, I also believe that the overwhelming majority of cops do not qualify as 'good cops', because that same majority who aren't likely to directly abuse their power and authority don't do squat about the ones who do, if they're not outright defending them.
If you only consider a cop a 'bad cop' if they directly abuse their power and authority, then barring localized exceptions most cops are 'good cops'.
If you consider a cop a 'bad cop' if they directly abuse their power and authority or protect and/or enable the ones who do, then barring individual exceptions most cops are not 'good cops'.
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Re: Right for the wrong reason
Of the major police departments we have worked with, Cleveland, Philadelphia and New York City were by far the most responsive."
https://www.oathkeepers.org/navyjack-operation-hypo-action-report/
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Chillax Everyone...
The Republicans are more in love with the police state, but I do not see many Democrats trying to fight it even a little bit at the top. All they do is pay some lip smacking service to the sycophant voters they easily fool.
All we are doing now is just discussing how bad of a "Police State" we wish to be.
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Unions aren't all bad
But take for example a nurse at a hospital.
Hospital wants to save money so they cut nursing staff.
Nurses who remain have to take on more patients.
A nurse who has to many patients may not be able to give each individual the care they need.
In fact an overworked nurse can lead to mistakes, mistakes that could lead to a patient's death, mistakes that could cause the nurse to lose their nursing license.
So a nurses union that stipulated a max number of patients based of difficulty of care would save lives and livelihoods.
A nurse would not have to lose their nursing licence so a hospital can save money.
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Re: Unions aren't all bad
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You (the general you, not you specifically) would think that about a lot of things corporations do... but insurance and (more often) corporate structures protect senior management from the consequences of their decisions. Unions can act as a check on that.
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Re: Re: Unions aren't all bad
The problem is that people are short-sighted little shits and don't have a good goddamn clue about how to behave rationally.
Most unions got their birth back in the day when helping low-class workers band together to oppose monopsony or monopoly- a single source of employment, or a single source of vital goods. (Mine owners, or rail transportation for farmers).
I imagine most people on this site are in agreement that monopolies or duopolies are bad and inclined to abuse, and that individual people cannot fight them very effectively. There you go.
But obviously, that hardly means they're all good, either.
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Alternatively ---
::coughcough:: Cancelled FBI investigation into white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement, anyone? (Intercept article here.)
I mean, I'm not one for conspiracy theories … unless, you know, the FBI report them as fact … and then appear to be told to stop looking?
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Say it with me, this time with feeling!
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Law and order must start with the people who enforce it - if they will not follow the law then why should anyone else?
This should be non-partisan. Even if you feel that the government should be imposing less regulation on society you have to admit that proper enforcement of what regulation there is requires a fully compliant force. Giving them more latitude doesn't help anyone.
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"I AM the law!"
It's a 'We're the Good Guys'/'It's not illegal if the president does it' issue.
To someone that sees the police and those like them as the 'Good Guys Who Can Do No Wrong', then clearly anything that limits their ability(like say laws and constitutional rights and whatnot) to do something is the problem, not the police.
If the law prevents a fishing expedition that might have caught a criminal, then clearly the law is in the wrong and needs to be changed, because the law isn't there to protect criminals, but to punish them.
That getting rid of the law would open up vastly more innocent people than guilty to having their stuff searched for no good reason is a sacrifice the police will bravely let the public shoulder, and any that object are doing so because they support criminals or are a criminal themself.
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The Trump Administration will be a law and order administration."
President Trump will a "law and order administration" only if he and his administration follow the US Constitution. Why?
Because the US Constitution defines our governments - state and federal; it assigns the delegated authorities/powers to the different BRANCHES and to OFFICES within a branch - not to any person or group of people. Those that serve within our state and federal governments are under that/those contract(s). Here under our LEGITIMATE government there are no such things as "emergency powers", "martial law", "assassination powers" (First Degree Murder powers). Those exist only in other nations.
IF they cannot do their job as the supreme and highest (state - if applicable) contracts requires of them then they need to look for another profession, because - as with any job contract - then they cannot do the job. There is no complaint when they are fired for breaking the LOWEST contract they are under, the one with whatever enforcement they signed on to - it is expected.
To make the supreme and highest contracts lawfully stronger, those who serve within our governments are REQUIRED to take an Oath to support and defend the US Constitution (and their own state's Constitution) before the orders of superiors and the duties of the position they occupy (Those who serve as US Presidents are held to a higher standard of Preserving, Protecting and Defending the US Constitution).
Breaking the Oath(s) are a felony and the crime of Perjury, and those that serve knew this, or should have, going into the governmental position.
If President Trump says yes to those who are working to destroy our nation from within (Yes, THAT is exactly what those requests are for), then we need to remove him, and those who were doing the asking.
Ask yourself this, Does the job you are working for let you rewrite your work contract, give yourself raises, decide what duties you will do and not do? Neither does our supreme LAW (another law they will be breaking, and if also state job, then 2 more LAWS they will be breaking))
Justice Sandra Day O’Connor: “The Constitution does not protect the sovereignty of States for the benefit of the States or state governments as abstract political entities, or even for the benefit of the public officials governing the States. To the contrary, the Constitution divides authority between federal and state governments for the protection of individuals. State sovereignty is not just an end in itself: “Rather, federalism secures to citizens the liberties that derive from the diffusion of sovereign power.”
Mack and Printz v. United States: “The Framers rejected the concept of a central government that would act upon and through the States, and instead designed a system in which the State and Federal Governments would exercise concurrent authority over the people. The Federal Government’s power would be augmented immeasurably and impermissibly if it were able to impress into its service - and at no cost to itself - the police officers of the 50 States… Federal control of state officers would also have an effect upon the separation and equilibration of powers between the three branches of the Federal Government itself.”
Treason - Article III, Section 3 of the Constitution of the United States provides: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
*Terrorism: 28 C.F.R. Section 0.85 Terrorism is defined as “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives”.
If they are aiding in the destruction of our legitimate government by requiring that those who serve within our governments behave as if they are a tyrant or king, and since this is "enforcement" asking, force or the threat of force is always there in there official actions. By asking they are working to change our type of government from a constitutional republic in an unlawful and illegal way. (Yes, I know it has been done before, but that it continues is our fault.)
Color of law. The appearance or semblance, without the substance, of legal right. Misuse of power, possessed by virtue of state law and made possible only because wrongdoer is clothed with authority of state, is action taken under “color of law.” Black’s Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, page 241.
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Remove the identifier and guess what
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Re: Remove the identifier and guess what
Spot on. I've kicked around a similar idea myself for a good while now, that whether or not someone is a cop shouldn't even be brought up in court, the accused should be judged on what they did, not whether or not they had a badge.
If doing X would get a non-cop a finding of guilt and jail time, then it should be no different for a cop, they shouldn't be allowed to hide behind their badge.
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Re: Re: Remove the identifier and guess what
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It's certainly an idea that could do with refinement, and might indeed be non-viable for the reason you mention, the point is simply to strip away the badge so that they're judged on what they do rather than what they are.
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Re: Re: Re: Remove the identifier and guess what
In America we have the Right to keep and bear arms. It has of course been shat upon extensively but there should never be the question of "why do you have a gun with you?" The only question should be "Why DONT you have a gun with you?". I would very much enjoy the protection offered by fellow citizens in arms. And so do some officers.
"or why the person took off running upon seeing them,"
To avoid justice or danger? Running from a cop is not an automatic admission of guilt, if I was wrongly accused of being a cop killer I would run because I cannot trust a fair or safe trial will be supplied. It's not like my fellow citizens will give a shit if a cop mows my ass down.
"it may be impossible to give a jury a proper overview of the situation without either saying outright, or constructing in a way in which the jury can easily infer, who was a cop in any given situation."
I would challenge that assertion. A simple telling of the facts should be enough. Since a citizen can forcibly detain another citizen under citizens arrest, provided it is clear that the guilty was breaking the law, all that matters at that point is the evidence in regards to the arrested. Proper law enforcement will handle the rest.
Most identification beyond that is really just for edification, but ultimately adds no relevancy except in very rare cases which can be addresses as needed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Remove the identifier and guess what
As for citizen's arrest, I'm not sure it's in the same general space; questions that might come up would include "why didn't they call the police," which would seem pretty silly on the face of it if the person they're referring to *is* the police and they just don't know it. It also doesn't answer the question about pulling over in a traffic stop, or entry for no-knock warrants (which would be one of the big "bad things happened here" areas for police misconduct, I would think, given some of the stories I've heard about no-knocks), and on and on...
Mind you, like I said before, it's not a terrible idea. It would be ideal, I think, if we could simply remove the public assumption that police officers are "right-er" than private citizens, and remove a lot of the protections they get from the consequences of their wrongdoing; naturally, that would be harder to accomplish (if it's accomplishable at all).
In circumstances where a plain telling of the facts could support not labeling police officers as police in front of a jury, I think this system would work fine; I just wonder how often that would be applicable.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Remove the identifier and guess what
I am almost certain that question would be answered in the determination, and as "That One Guy" said... there would be refinements.
"Mind you, like I said before, it's not a terrible idea. It would be ideal, I think, if we could simply remove the public assumption that police officers are "right-er" than private citizens, and remove a lot of the protections they get from the consequences of their wrongdoing; naturally, that would be harder to accomplish (if it's accomplishable at all)."
There is a strong possibility that we agree on the end goal but disagree on how to achieve that end. When it comes to modifying public opinions or expectations the devil is truly in the details. There are so many ways to corrupt opinions that we require very specific instructions for juries. Unfortunately we do not give very good ones, but they should always begin with and example of how juries are fooled or toyed with and a warning to not allow themselves to become fooled by witty lawyers. Of course a Judge is there to help avoid this, but there are many subtle ways to poison a jury under the watchful eye of a discerning judge.
In most peoples minds, it is more important on HOW your phrase the story, than the result of the story itself. I am sure there is a great story teller that could make watching paint dry an insightful and interesting journey... I have yet to meet them, but I have meet others like them that have engage my curiosity over subjects I once though unworthy of my own attentions.
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LotsaRe's: Remove the identifier and guess what
Honestly, trying to get into the nitty-gritty with this idea is beyond me, IANAL after all; it's a fascinating thought but it also seems pretty clear that nothing like it is gonna happen for the next four years, and probably not after that. Our legal system is just... kind of a mess.
But yes, ultimately we do agree on the end product: Cops should not be exempt from the law just because they uphold it, and should not receive preferential treatment when they commit wrongdoings. So we're on board together there, at least. :3
Aaanyways, I gotta head off to work now; been an interesting little thread to participate in, hopefully we'll have some fresh perspectives when I get back. ^.^ Salut!
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Re: LotsaRe's: Remove the identifier and guess what
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Yea... I think it really might be a confession!
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(Any authoritah i claim for myself.)
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Dirtbags
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Fun? Damn Mental!
"One of the fundamental rights of every American is to live in a safe community."
Yup, we call it the Second Amendment, and we're free to exercise it or not to ensure whatever degree of "safety" we prefer against whatever encroachments we perceive.
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If they did their job...
The anti-police atmosphere is a result of the anti-constitution attitudes and practices of the police departments - they've brought it on themselves.
The police, unions and so on keep using phrases like "police and public partnership".
Well, I'm sorry, but there is no partnership involved.
The police are public servants, they are there to serve the people. They are not our partners, they are our subordinates.
Unfortunately, they have gotten above themselves and view themselves as the masters, the ones in charge, the ones who make the rules. But like any employee, servant, subordinate who has elevated themselves above their actual bosses, employers, they need to be smacked down and put back in their place. Or let go to find a job that better suits them.
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welllllll mister anderson.....
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He can listen to a dozen experts describe why the police are out of control and not believe any of it, but let him hear one officer claim that cops are being killed by the dozens every single day and he believes every single word of it.
And in the ridiculously rare instance that the police do do something wrong, he believes that it's easily remedied by a quick trip to court with a good lawyer.
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That's almost impressive. I mean naivety is one thing, but willful blindness that bad has got to take some real dedication on his part.
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It's the same with everything Trump does.
Me: Trump fired the acting attorney general for questioning his immigration ban. The state department was also told that they should fall in line or look for new jobs.
Him: Good! He's the president, they should do what he says.
Me: Federal judges are saying the ban may be illegal.
Him: It's to keep us safe!
Me: How? he excluded the very countries that the 911 hijackers came from?
Him: Those are bad countries and we need to stop the bad people from coming here!
Me: But how does that keep us safe if he excluded-
Him: IF YOU LOVE THOSE COUNTRIES SO MUCH WHY DON'T YOU GO AND LIVE THERE?!!
Me: What do you think of his hiring freeze on government jobs?
Him: Good! They'll be saving money.
Me: The National Park Service says this is going to be a disaster as they now can't hire the 8,000 seasonal workers they need to staff the parks.
Him: Our state had a hiring freeze on park workers a while back. The world didn't end.
Me: Trump kept talking about voter fraud and how they need to crack down on people who are registered in two different states, but yet some of his team are registered to vote in two different states.
Him: As long as they don't vote in more than one state, there's nothing wrong with that.
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Sounds like a walking manifestation of the very concept of authoritarian. "If they're in charge they're right by definition, no matter what they do."
If you're ever bored and feel like giving yourself a headache perhaps ask him if there is anything Trump could realistically do that he would object to, I imagine the answer would be instructive, though likely not too surprising if you've known him long.
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