FBI Arresting More Americans For Targeting Muslims, Than Muslims For Targeting Americans
from the lock-'em-up dept
We've been pretty damn clear that we think the Trump administration's targeting of people from a few countries by banning them from entering the US is both inhumane and misguided. We were proud to sign on to an amicus brief opposing it and happy that the 9th Circuit agreed -- though the case is far from over. As I've noted repeatedly, to me it's an issue of basic humanity and decency, but some have insisted on making arguments about how certain people are somehow out to get us and we need to protect ourselves from them. I know that, these days, it's considered silly to rely on things like facts for an argument, but it seemed worthwhile to actually explore some facts on this particular topic.
We'll start with a post at Lawfare, by Nora Ellingsen. And we should start out by noting that Techdirt and Lawfare have a pretty long history of... well... not agreeing on much. The site is generally supportive of the intelligence community and supportive of actions taken to protect "national security." We tend to be more skeptical. Ellingsen worked in the FBI's Counterterrorism Division for five years, specifically working on international terrorism investigations inside the US. Since leaving the FBI to go to law school, she's been tracking counterterrorism cases in the US, using DOJ data. And she's gone through that data to try to determine if there's any truth to the idea that people from those countries represent a big ongoing threat. And the answer is that it's just not true. In fact, the real "terrorism" threat in America appears to be... from Americans.:
The Program on Extremism at George Washington University has routinely published statistics indicating that the “vast majority” of individuals charged in the U.S. with offenses related to ISIL are U.S. citizens. When considering all terrorism offenses, that claim holds up—80 of the 97 suspects arrested in the past two years, or more than 82 percent, are American citizens.
Most of those, notably, are not naturalized citizens. Of the U.S. citizens, only six were naturalized. In other words, more than 76 percent of individuals arrested by the FBI over the past two years for terrorism-related offenses were U.S. citizens as a result of having been born in the United States.
The post goes through all of the individuals who were not born in the US and looks at what each was charged with (often just making false statements to the FBI) and how many of them (not many) actually came from the list of banned countries.
And, then, of course, the fact that the FBI these days tends to be arresting a lot more people for plotting violent attacks on Muslims, than Muslims plotting violent attacks on the US:
Since January 2015, the FBI has also arrested more anti-immigrant American citizens plotting violent attacks on Muslims within the U.S. than it has refugees, or former refugees, from any banned country. As we wrote about here, here and here, in October 2016, three white men from Kansas were charged with conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction. According to the graphic complaint, the anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant men planned to attack a mosque in the area. The men progressed quickly with their plot, amassing firearms and explosives. The targets were people from Somalia, who ironically, would now be covered by Trump’s order.
Similarly, the post notes that there were more US citizens arrested en route to join ISIS in Syria than those arrested trying to plan attacks here.
Since we’re already on the topic, let’s talk about Americans traveling to join ISIL. Over the past two years, the FBI has arrested 34 Americans who aspired to leave, attempted to leave or actually left the United States to join a terrorist group overseas. In other words, although two refugees came into the U.S. and were charged with material support,
Seventeen times that number of U.S. citizens tried to leave the U.S. to conduct attacks and fight overseas. More Americans have snuck into Syria to join ISIL, than ISIL members have snuck into the United States. In September 2015, a congressional report indicated that 250 Americans have gone to Syria and Iraq to fight with ISIL. By comparison, as of December 2015, only 71 individuals in the United States had been charged with ISIL-related activities—the vast majority of whom were also U.S. citizens, according to George Washington University.
Meanwhile, over at Slate, William Saletan has pointed out that if the President really wants to ban travellers from regions that import multiple people aiming to harm Americans... it ought to ban travel from North & South Carolina. He goes through story after story of extremists who left North Carolina to conduct terrorist attacks elsewhere. The list is long, but here are just a few:
It began with Eric Rudolph, a Holocaust denier who grew up in the Christian Identity movement. In 1996, Rudolph traveled from North Carolina to Atlanta, where he detonated a bomb at the Olympics, killing one person and injuring more than 100 others. A year later, Rudolph bombed a lesbian bar in Atlanta, wounding five people. In 1998, he bombed a reproductive health clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, killing a security guard and injuring a nurse. The “Army of God,” which hosts Rudolph’s writings, claimed credit for his attacks.
In 2001, Steve Anderson, another Christian Identity follower, was pulled over for a broken tail light on his way home from a white supremacist meeting in North Carolina. He pumped 20 bullets into the officer’s car and fled. Police found weapons, ammunition, and explosives in his truck and home. A year later, he was captured in the western part of the state.
In 2010, Justin Moose, an extremist from Concord, North Carolina, was arrested for plotting to blow up a Planned Parenthood clinic. Moose, who claimed to represent the Army of God, also opposed the construction of a mosque near ground zero in New York. He called himself the “Christian counterpart of Osama Bin Laden.” Eventually, Moose pleaded guilty to disseminating information on how to make and use explosive devices.
Obviously, the Slate piece is tongue-in-cheek in arguing that the Carolinas are the real threat, but the larger point is completely valid. There seems to be no credible evidence for why people from the countries listed in the original executive order should be banned from the US other than outright bigotry. And, somewhat unfortunately, that same kind of ignorant bigotry (which the executive order is only helping to encourage and spread) is resulting in actual violent attacks from Americans who misguidedly think they're stopping "evil."
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Filed Under: executive order, fbi, immigration ban, muslims, terorrism
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Banning Evil...just make it stop...so ordered...job done
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Re: Banning Evil...just make it stop...so ordered...job done
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-JmavretFY
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Which citizens? Which FBI?
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Re: Which citizens? Which FBI?
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Re: Re: Which citizens? Which FBI?
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Tennessee man who plotted New York mosque attack won’t face terrorism charges
BY Chris Sommerfeldt NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Updated: Tuesday, February 14, 2017, 4:49 AM
It's happening so damn much we apparently can't even bother charging them as terrorists anymore.
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basic humanity and decency
The one thing that is true, is that I do see other nations like France and Germany falling to pieces over this problem and we are calling people inhuman for not wanting the same to occur in their countries.
Sorry, but it looks to me like this is just more politics as usual. Go ahead, keep calling people inhuman... great way to attract those flies. Hypocrisy is nothing but a friend!
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Re: basic humanity and decency
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https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7423/germany-migrant-crisis
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09 /14/world/europe/germany-emergency-measures-european-migrant-crisis.html?_r=0
https://www.wsj.com/art icles/migrant-crisis-dims-the-festive-mood-at-munichs-oktoberfest-1442482201
http://www.cnn.com/2015/ 09/13/world/europe-migrant-crisis/index.html
Well, fuck I guess not huh?
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I know a lot of you have very short memories about shit but damn...
There have been false reports of police shooting minorities as well... should we now ignore the true reports as well, because of a few false ones?
Additionally, false reports tend to arrive when there is something to play off of as well which helps make them more believable than they normally would.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: basic humanity and decency
While almost every country in the western hemisphere has birthright citizenship, until recently European countries did not. France brought in a lot of workers from it's holdings in Africa as workers. Soon they had kids, and then grand-kids. None of whom had citizenship. They weren't allowed to assimilate. They grew up knowing that they weren't even second class citizens. So ghettos formed and riots started.
We don't have that problem in North America. The kids born here automatically become citizens. They're allowed to assimilate. Even keeping their language and culture, they're first-class citizens.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: basic humanity and decency
See :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law
It seems pretty clear to me that there has never been a significant impediment to a person born in France to residents of France acquiring French Nationality. There seems to have been aminor impediment for a short while a few years ago but not enough to justify your conclusions.
Anyone born in Britian to a resident (as opposed to a tourist or other short term visitor) is British by default and there are still problems with non-assimilation here.
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A kid born in France can get French citizenship when they turn 18, but my understanding is that that's a fairly recent development.
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That's not assimilation, that's colonization.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization
Get your racist goggles off and look up the term "Amish."
Have fun!!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: basic humanity and decency
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Re: Re: Re: basic humanity and decency
Perhaps if you told me what news stories you were referring to .........
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Re: Re: basic humanity and decency
you forgot the /s
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Tech?
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Re: Tech?
And this has to do with tech in what way?
I really wish people would quit asking this, like it's some sort of "gotcha" moment. Techdirt writes about a lot of things, most of them related to tech, but not always. If it's a problem for you, find something else to read.
Seriously, do you people post comments at PopeHat.com and ask them what their articles have to do with the Catholic leader's headgear too?
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Re: Re: Tech?
But farmers and gardeners are still wondering when Silicon Valley is coming to small scale soil management over here.
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They probably do now... ;)
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Re: Tech?
I am an internet asshole, hear me roar!
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Missing the problem
The US is only 1% Muslim - so on its face you would expect that only 1 in 100 terror attacks that take place would be by Muslims - but yet if you look at actual attacks where multiple "stranger" lives were lost (where there is a single victim known to the attacker then it may well be just one of those I really like you murders) you will find that it is far more than 1 in 100 over recent years.
Of course the US has stupidly lax laws about guns and explosives and a law enforcement arm that is more interested in creating plots than solving them (not to mention a recent president who had an agenda of defending islam and smearing Christianity een though he officially professed it).
BUT the real issue here isn't about what happens in the West. It is about what happens in places where Islam rules.
See https://medium.com/@najwa.najib/donald-trump-is-good-for-middle-eastern-christians-350f049bed62#.djw 5dayw8
Now Trump's banwas stupid - and off target tactically - but at least he doesn't look at Islam through rose tinted spectacles to the same extent you seem to.
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Re: Missing the problem
Yeah, boo Mike for suggesting theocratic islamic rule in the US!
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Re: Missing the problem
us law enforcement does not / is directed to not view domestic terrorism as terrorism. Plenty of acts of terrorism by white "christian" types get swept under the rug
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Re: Re: Missing the problem
There is no doubt at all there there are lots of bias in law enforcement but stop pretending that it only works one way, when it in facts works in wacky ways and as the "prosecution desires" all over the fucking place.
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Re: Missing the problem
What if we based classifying people who we put under ridiculous umbrella terms according to the level of their victimization also?
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Re: Missing the problem
Who starts off the post by insulting celebrities, then moves on to complain about "Social Justice Warriors and Wankers," which is really a tirade against uppity black people?
And, who continues with prejudicial overgeneralizations like this: "Most Muslims, though, live in the Middle East or in places like Indonesia and Malaysia and Pakistan, where they treat non-Muslims with the same hate and violence and psychopathic homicidal delight that Middle Eastern Muslims reserve for my [Middle Eastern Christian] people."
Yeah, not convincing.
I absolutely agree that there is persecution of other religions in majority-Muslim countries, and that this is wrong, and that we in the West should do what we can to stop it.
But I do not see *anything* that Trump has done as helping that cause. And I certainly don't think this article helps anything, either.
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Islam, as an ideology, is incompatible with American values and ideals. People like that should not be let in to a country where cultures will clash violently.
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Bullshit - its a valid point. I sure dont want to hear daily calls to pray multiple times a day near me.
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If it isn't any greater than other same time-of-day noise, then what does it matter?
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Which is a cause we should all believe in. Islam, as an ideology, is incompatible with American values and ideals.
Please explain. I always thought that one's right to worship as they choose to be a fundamental right that the United States was founded upon. It's even enshrined in our Bill of Rights:
If you are referring to radical Islam, then I would somewhat agree, but then I would also say that "radical Christianity" and "radical Atheism" are also incompatible with any civilized society.
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If you are referring to radical Islam, then I would somewhat agree, but then I would also say that "radical Christianity" and "radical Atheism" are also incompatible with any civilized society.
Careful.
Firstly as Erdogan said- there is no "radical Islam there is only Islam"
Secondly, if by radical you mean "strongly adhering to the tenets of the religion then Christianity says
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's
and
So long as it lies with you live at peace with all
whereas ISlam says
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. (8:38)
and few other things to be found here
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/loyalty-to-non-muslim-government.aspx
Whereas a radical atheist well one who believed in dialectical materialism maybe...
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We still have the occasional problem with radical Christians - some mentioned in the story above - but we still allow Christian immigrants.
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There's no shortage of similar "our god over all else" quotes in the Bible.
Well - .if there is a god then that is exactly what you would expect so duhhh.
However the key point is whether there are specific instructions valid for all time to enforce this by violence in this world.
It also matters whether these are the most recent texts or whether they are old historical events.
We still have the occasional problem with radical Christians
Show me an example where the "problem" come from someone who prioritises the messages in the sermon on the mount.
I don't understand how anyone whose behaviour blatantly contradicts those messages could be called a Christian at all - let alone a radical one.
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Those similar Biblical directives also don't come with an expiry date.
One can cherry-pick non-xenophobic passages from the Koran just like you do from the Bible. The problem with BOTH religions is the many cherry-pick differently.
Even the Nazis had military chaplains to assure the troops that they were doing the right thing and could be proud of their work. Nazi soldiers had the words "Gott mit uns" (God with us) on their belt buckles.
Likewise many Islamic scholars say the same thing about the same behavior among those who call themselves Muslim.
Christian Science Monitor: The myth of Muslim support for terror
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Just going on the quotes you've posted, but:
and
are not the same thing.
At the time the following actions were done, they were not regarded as terror attacks, but as militarily justifiable:
Therefore depending on how the question is phrased, some might and some might not regard the above as terror attacks, therefore influencing their answer.
Were the semantics of the questions asked of each of those groups the same? e.g. Were the questions couched in terms of the local languages, attitudes, definitions, understandings of the words? I mean, the quote you provided doesn't give the results in a common semantic framework.
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Firstly as Erdogan said- there is no "radical Islam there is only Islam"
Yes, I realize that there is some controversy surrounding the term "radical Islam". I was using it in the colloquial sense of "extremism", not necessarily in the sense of "fundamentalism".
Personally, I am the product of a Catholic father and a Methodist mother and was raised as neither, but was encouraged to explore any and all religions on my own. Having done so in my younger days, I realized that my personal belief system has absolutely nothing to do with groups of people, ornate buildings or ancient texts, but is internal and private. The teachings of Buddha come the closest to my personal beliefs.
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whereas ISlam says
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. (8:38)
A little bit of cherry-picking there. The keyword is "persecution".
The Prophet Muhammad also taught and followed up with actions (ie: the Saheefah) that tolerance for other religions is needed for a society to function correctly:
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/207/viewall/tolerance-of-prophet-towards-other-rel igions/
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That is what he said when he was weak and living in Mecca.
It isn't what he did later on.
If he had followed his original teaching you would never have heard of him.
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Here is a really good simply written, well referenced life:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100132969/Short%20biography.pdf
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If you are referring to radical Islam,
Well it seems that even mainstream Islam in supposedly moderate Indonesia has a problem with voting for a non-muslim:
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking-news.php?id=84890
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>... mainstream Islam in supposedly moderate Indonesia...
Sadly, I must agree with you on this, grass root Indonesian muslim are moving away from being moderate. This is a relatively new development, which by my observation started after the fall of Soeharto. If you speak Indonesian, and see the comments from Indonesian muslim netizen about the horrors men do on youtube, you'll be horrified.
disclaimer: I'm also a muslim, born and raised in muslim family. The Islam now growing in Indonesia __is not__ the Islam I know & studied growing up.
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certainly - but having statements broadcasted loudly is not a fundamental right - yet they would insist on it. I image hearing church bells can be annoying but its once a week and less expressive.
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Where we welcome all faiths so long as they follow our laws. You can't claim to uphold American values and then deny one of our most important.
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Islam, as an ideology, is incompatible with American values and ideals. People like that
Don't make the mistake of jumping from "an ideology" to "people".
Almost all muslims are born into the faith, and held there by vicious anti-apostasy laws (in Muslim countries) or social pressure (often with a veiled threat of violence) elsewhere.
Muslims are the greatest victims of the ideology and the best thing we can do is to provide routes of escape for them.
See http://www.exmna.org/
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Careful with Statistics
Just because they're not getting busted as active participants I wouldn't be so quick to sweep under the rug that they're not here and don't represent a huge problem.
That's the problem with statistics depending on what data you actually have and how you look at it, you could lull yourself into a false sense of security with one group while being a little too eager to blame another. This is a complex problem and no-one is walking around with a sign on their back stating "Future Terrorist in Training".
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Re: Careful with Statistics
"See, America hates you, so you might as well join us" is a pretty compelling argument.
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Muslims are a minority in America. Americans are not.
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Muslims are a minority in America. Americans are not.
Just out of curiosity, which group do you place the United States citizens who happen to practice the Islam faith into? Are they not also Americans?
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Really? You can't conceive of any other reason? Im astounded.
6 of those 7 countries have NO FUNCTIONING GOVERNMENT or at least one that isn't riddled with Islamists or other hostile actors. Our entire vetting process is predicated on the local government to vet the traveller first. Countries like Saudi Arabia aren't on the list because they have a highly functioning police state. Meanwhile what the fuck is going on in Libya or Yemen, no one knows. Iran is on that list not because we hate Muslims, but because fuck those guys. Fuck that whole nation. You would trust an Iranian government guy to say yeah this guy is cool, we vetted him here?
But no, let's not let reason win over your personal feelz.
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I love the fact that you respond to my post, which includes lots of actual data with the following 2 lines:
And:
One of us has reason on our side. The other has feelz, in the form of blind rage and ignorance.
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He is right, the relationship between Iran and the US is pretty well summarised by "they really hate each other (but they promised to talk without hitting)"
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Countries like Saudi Arabia aren't on the list because they have a highly functioning police state.
And yet most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.
Your definition of "highly functioning" is as pathetic as your "reasoning."
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Lol, as if we count on their governments to do the vetting. It is to laugh. Never mind the ones who were extremely vetted by our military, and who helped us at the risk to themselves and their families. Fuck them too.
Saudi Arabia is a fully functioning police state that is pretty much the prime exported of Islamic extremism. Their state form of Islam is 100% extreme. But whatever.
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Culture clash
And from this there is the emergence of vigilante gangs who vow to protect woman.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3390042/The-fightback-begins-German-vigilante-group-vo ws-protect-women-migrant-attackers-three-Syrians-arrested-gang-raping-two-teenage-girls.html
Do we want this in the US?
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Re: Culture clash
This is the same bullshit that comes up EVERY SINGLE TIME there's a new influx of immigrants from a particular country. Remember the Know Nothing party? They said the same thing about those darn Catholics who would bring their awful religion to the US.
As so you didn't hear today's news about how this was entirely made up? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/frankfurt-mass-sexual-assault-refugees-fake-made-up-b ild-germany-cologne-new-year-allegations-a7581291.html
Educate yourself.
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Re: Re: Culture clash
This is the same bullshit that comes up EVERY SINGLE TIME there's a new influx of immigrants from a particular country. Remember the Know Nothing party? They said the same thing about those darn Catholics who would bring their awful religion to the US.
Except that history shows that Islam is different from all those other groups.
Look at the middle east today.
All those so called islamic countries were originally conquered by the sword. Before that most of the region was Christian except Persia which was Zoroastrian. Interestingly Zorastrianism is making a comeback in (what should be) Kurdistan. Further east Afghanistan was largely Buddhist and India had a mixture of were Hindus, Buddhists and a few Christians.
All of the middle east and a large part of India was initially taken by violence and then, over centuries, reinforced by a system of apartheid which rewarded conversion to Islam and penalised anyone who tried to leave it.
Even in countries that were not initially taken by violence the story is not good.
Here is an Indonesian former muslim speaking:
"For thousands of years my country (Indonesia) was a Hindu Buddhist kingdom. The last Hindu king was kind enough to give a tax exempt property for the first Muslim missionary to live and to preach his religion. Slowly the followers of the new religion were growing, and after they became so strong the kingdom was attacked, those who refused to become Muslims had to flee for their life to the neighboring island of Bali or to a high mountain of Tengger, where they have been able to keep their religion until now. Slowly from the Hindu Buddhist Kingdom, Indonesia became the largest Islamic country in the world. If there is any lesson to be learnt by Americans at all, the history of my country is worth pondering upon. We are not hate mongering, bigoted people; rather, we are freedom loving, democracy loving and human loving people. We just don’t want this freedom and democracy to be taken away from us by our ignorance and misguided ‘political correctness’, and the pretension of tolerance.”
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It's kind of incredible that you would write that. "This time it's different!" is always the war-cry of the uninformed. It's not different, every time the same thing has happened someone said "This time it's different!" and then it turned out it wasn't.
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Ecclesiastes 1:9 (KJV)
"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."
if KJV isn't your preferred Godly Dialect, you're welcome to look it up in whichever version of God's Word you prefer.
Now that Biblical "Proof" has been provided, can we stop with the "Islam is different" schtick? It really isn't.
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It is YOU who is saying that this time it is different.
ie that the impact of Islam on the US will be different from what it has been elsewhere
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No. It really doesn't.
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Before that, the land was occupied by many different cultures and religions.
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It just isn't at all.
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Re: Culture clash
Do we want this in the US?
“We are clearly called, in the Bible, to adhere to our civil authorities, but that conflicts with also a requirement to adhere to God’s rules. When those two come in conflict, God’s rules always win. In essence, if we are ever ordered by a government authority to personally violate and sin, violate God’s law and sin, if we’re ordered to stop preaching the gospel, if we’re ordered to perform a same-sex marriage as someone presiding over it, we are called to ignore that. We cannot abide by that because government is compelling us to sin.” - Marco Rubio
We already have it.
The real problem as I see it, is the Christian fucktards feel threatened by Muslim fucktards.
In reality, you're both fucking retarded. And more so by failing to see the hypocrisy in the bullshit you're saying.
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Re: Re: Culture clash
When those two come in conflict, God’s rules always win. In essence, if we are ever ordered by a government authority to personally violate and sin
Not very subtle are you.
The word "personally violate" are key here. This is not talking about people imposing their views on others it is about people having others' views imposed on them.
If you are a vegan then I would not expect you to try to stop other people eating meat but I would equally not expect you to submit if the state ordered you to eat meat.
There is a HUGE difference. I am surprised that you don't see it.
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Re: Re: Re: Culture clash
I see - so as far as Marco Rubio is concerned, what am I missing about the "personally violate" context?
if we’re ordered to perform a same-sex marriage as someone presiding over it
In this context, it would mean as a justice of the peace deliberately not following the law because he personally feels it's wrong. Or some clerk, fresh on marriage #4 deciding same-sex marriage is wrong, deciding not to issue a license.
There is no bigly, yuge difference - you want to pick and choose based on what your imaginary man of choice tells you in your head.
If I decided not to pay taxes because my money funds war, I'm guessing that wouldn't fly. So fuck my beliefs as far as that goes.
But goddammit - same-sex marriages are such a degree more terrible than that. You persecuted "christians" need protection.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Culture clash
In this context, it would mean as a justice of the peace deliberately not following the law because he personally feels it's wrong. Or some clerk, fresh on marriage #4 deciding same-sex marriage is wrong, deciding not to issue a license.
It does not mean that - you are setting up a straw man here.
I wouldn't expect a vegan to apply for a job in an abbatoir but if a vegan sets up his own restaurant I wouldn't expect the state to force him to sell meat.
If I decided not to pay taxes because my money funds war, I'm guessing that wouldn't fly.
It wouldn't fly if you expected the state to just let you do it.
If you believe something strongly you need to be prepared to suffer for it and many Christians in the past have done so.
http://blog.livesofthefirstworldwar.org/conscientious-objectors-in-the-first-world-war/
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Culture clash
In this context, it would mean as a justice of the peace deliberately not following the law because he personally feels it's wrong. Or some clerk, fresh on marriage #4 deciding same-sex marriage is wrong, deciding not to issue a license.
Or maybe an Imam refusing to solemnize a same sex marriage?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Culture clash
Or maybe an Imam refusing to solemnize a same sex marriage?
Is the Iman working as a clerk? In a legal capacity? For the state, perhaps?
Because if he is, then he needs to fuck off and do his job. If the details of the job offend him, he's free to follow his heart and find another line of work.
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Re: Culture clash
Here in Canada a small group of Muslims called for sharia courts for their own people. They were shouted down - marches even held to protest them - by a much, MUCH larger group of Muslims who had had enough of that crap in the old world and wanted no part of it here.
Christian or Muslim or Jewish, you'll always find some who want a theocracy. (Consider Mike Huckabee rallying to the cause of a woman who insisted on using her government position to dictate her sect's religious beliefs to others. Or Haredi Jews putting up signs on *public* streets banishing women to one side of the street.) You treat them the same way, and don't let them get away with it.
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Re: Re: Culture clash
Here in Canada a small group of Muslims called for sharia courts for their own people. They were shouted down - marches even held to protest them - by a much, MUCH larger group of Muslims who had had enough of that crap in the old world and wanted no part of it here.
In Canada maybe - but look at Muslim opinion around the world
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
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Internal borders
US states are about as big as individual countries in other parts of the world. It does seem strange that strange that some Americans are so obsessed with strong borders and completely ignore this. Of course, they're still more likely to be killed by furniture than even a Carolinian terrorist.
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Misguided
Mike, I love you, but you are both misguided and inhumane, and most likely a hypocrite.
First, you are misguided because it's a temporary ban and it was to improve the vetting process so we can differentiate the people who DO want to do us harm from those who don't. That's something we exercise ourselves in our own lives each day, trying to say that the country doesn't have the right to do that to protect their citizens is... misguided.
Second, unless you have a house full of immigrants, YOU are inhumane! At least, by your reasoning. The fact is, NO ONE outside this country has a RIGHT to be here. It's a privilege and one that's been abused and continues to be abused. I suspect many immigrants and refugees want to start a new life, but that should never be done at the expense of the citizens living here. Just like you would most likely never give up your own house (where would you sleep?!) and give it to a group of people from another country that you didn't know and had no way of knowing their real motivations or loyalties, it's not inhumane for our country to do the same.
And, you are most likely a hypocrite because you have doors and windows on your house, probably an alarm on your car. Why? Because you don't want just anyone walking into your house and because you probably don't want just anyone going into or stealing your car. It's the same thing, but on a larger scale. We don't want just anyone coming into our country.
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Re: Misguided
Next, you will claim that everyone has to grow their own food.
In modern societies, different people and organizations take on different roles, where we use money and barter to balance things out. There is nothing "inhumane" about donating to charities that help refugees while not housing a refugee yourself.
> but that should never be done at the expense of the citizens living here
Native Americans would like to have a word with you.
> We don't want just anyone coming into our country.
Perhaps you would be better off emigrating to a country that shares your values, such as North Korea.
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Re: Misguided
Second, unless you have a house full of immigrants, YOU are inhumane!
Change that phrase to : Second, unless you have a house full of unwanted children, YOU are inhumane!
I suspect many immigrants and refugees want to start a new life, but that should never be done at the expense of the citizens living here.
Change that to: I suspect many unwanted children want to start a new life, but that should never be done at the expense of the citizens living here.
Reason for the exercise is that most of the folks on the side of Trump and his ban/not-a-ban/could-be-a-ban-if-you-want wouldn't even fucking dare to take this side of the argument regarding abortion.
Yet when it comes to something that threatens to expose the size of their god's dick, they lose their shit.
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Re: Misguided
The existing vetting process is insanely thorough and complete. And, tellingly, it has not allowed in any terrorists from any of those countries. This is a bullshit excuse for a bullshit policy.
That's not how this works. It's not how any of this works. I'm not saying we need to accept everyone. I'm not even saying that we need to stop carefully vetting those who come. I'm saying that what was cruel and inhumane was a broadbased policy, based on no factual basis at all, that ripped apart families, caused massive harm on tons of people who had ALREADY BEEN VETTED.
Lovely strawman. Again, I never argued that we need to let everyone in. I'm saying we don't create a purely bullshit policy that tears apart families and people who have already been properly vetted because of unknown bullshit reasons.
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Re: Misguided
If you think the intention was for this to actually be temporary, you were probably also gullible enough to believe all of Trump's other promises and vote for him. The next four years are going to be disappointing for you...
*"...and it was to improve the vetting process so we can differentiate the people who DO want to do us harm from those who don't."*
More proof of your gullibility. The current vetting process has been shown to be very thorough and very effective. What exactly do you think needs to be improved? Where's your evidence of significant failure? You have no idea, you're just parroting Trump talking points.
*"...trying to say that the country doesn't have the right to do that to protect their citizens is... misguided."*
Trying to suggest that the EO would have actually increased protection to US citizens is also misguided. And stupid.
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Re: Misguided
"First, you are misguided because it's a temporary ban..."
If you think the intention was for this to actually be temporary, you were probably also gullible enough to believe all of Trump's other promises and vote for him. The next four years are going to be disappointing for you...
"...and it was to improve the vetting process so we can differentiate the people who DO want to do us harm from those who don't."
More proof of your gullibility. The current vetting process has been shown to be very thorough and very effective. What exactly do you think needs to be improved? Where's your evidence of significant failure? You have no idea, you're just parroting Trump talking points.
"...trying to say that the country doesn't have the right to do that to protect their citizens is... misguided."
Trying to suggest that the EO would have actually increased protection to US citizens is also misguided. And stupid.
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Re: Misguided
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Let's look at some examples
Its Muslim population, supports the establishment of a separatist government, supports terrorists, and is very anti-Philippine government.
Not to mention they also attack innocent bystanders for the sin of window shopping. Or stealing other people's money.
What? A third world country is irrelevant? How bigoted of you.
So let's take a look at France instead and, oh, riots and trucks of peace. Germany? Annual New Year rapes.
So yeah, if you like these to happen to America, go ahead. Let them all in and start arming them with beer trucks to kill white people right? That's the progressive way! :)
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Re: Let's look at some examples
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But I suppose Liberals do need to learn a lesson, one paid for in blood would suit them.
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https://twitter.com/TRobinsonNewEra/status/831975108382187523
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's look at some examples
maybe that was to reduce the range of the explosive devices they are wearing.
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Re: Let's look at some examples
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Here is one fact through, and you can't get around it. On November 28th a Somali refugee here in the country legally ran his car into people at Ohio State University then exited his car and began attacking people around him with knives. 13 people were hospitalized, one with a fractured skull.
This person didn't have to be here and those 13 people didn't have to go to the hospital.
On Feb. 11th a native of Guinea here legally entered the Nazereth Restaurant in Ohio and attacked customers with a machete, injuring 4. This person didn't have to be here and those people wouldn't have been hacked with a machete.
On September 17th, a Somali (here legally) walked into the Crossroads Center shopping mall and began stabbing patrons, he stabbed 10 people, sending 3 to the hospital. This person didn't have to be here, and those people wouldn't have been stabbed.
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You're welcome.
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Pretty Damn Unclear
You are pretty damn unclear: A 90-day temporary ban is something that has been done by President Obama and other Presidents before. It's not inhumane, it's not misguided, it's temporary.
Your first paragraph fails to mention that it is temporary and it has been done many times before, thus giving a false impression. Is it ignorance on your part? How could it be? You've been corrected several times. That leaves prejudice and malice.
Or simple insanity. Which is it, bud? My conclusion is malice and insanity with a heavy does of totally irrational prejudice.
Keep on siding with the the tech companies driving down wages with phoney H1-B visa laws. It make you look more lame every single day.
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Re: Pretty Damn Unclear
As has been explained multiple times, this was not done by President Obama. What he did was very, very different. And if he had done the same thing, to the same level, we would have been equally outraged.
No, the reverse. As we explained back to you your claims that this was done before is simply wrong. So the real question is why do you keep repeating it?
Huh?
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Re: Re: Pretty Damn Unclear
Huh?
The classic apologist's tactic of using another reason that has zero to do with the case at hand in effort to appeal to the emotions of enough people.
And the 90 day lull in H1-Bs would surely fix our economy, totes.
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Missing the forest for the trees
There has been a shitload of small-scale street violence by organizations linked to al-Qaeda: broken windows, arson, beating people up. The attackers are usually white college students who were recruited by an Islamist front organization on campus or over the internet. This is never registered as terrorism no matter how politically motivated it is.
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Re: Missing the forest for the trees
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Re: Missing the forest for the trees
Please do tell me what the weather is like in fantasyland?
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Re: Missing the forest for the trees
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Promises, promises
And why should there be? If I would have had the choice, I'd have preferred Obama sticking to his election promises and campaign platform rather than Trump.
But Trump promised outright bigotry, and he delivers.
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bullshit
after you all are done inviting the islamic terrorists over for tea and cookies.. and after he kills you. i can promise i'll be the one still standing .....over the terrorists body with a bullet hole in his skull because you all were too stupid to see the writing on the wall.
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Re: bullshit
Isn't that sort of reaffirming the point that you are a greater danger to the life of the refugee than the other way round?
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Re: bullshit
That doesn't sound real christian to me.
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Re: Re: bullshit
Christianity stands in the tradition of Paul, not Jesus. Until you let go of your misguided theoretical preconceptions, you'll never make it to casting your first stone.
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you don't travel much
Governments bothering travelers is the rule. Is this stupid rule really that much worse than the others.
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The dumbasses will rise again
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/16/dylann-roof-copycat-south-carolina-charlesto n-shooting
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