The MPAA Narrative About Piracy Flips To Danger From Pirate Sites Now That It Has Lost The Moral Argument

from the that-won't-work dept

Wed, Aug 16th 2017 1:29pm — Timothy Geigner

For years, years, the MPAA's public fight against piracy has chiefly consisted of a moral argument against it. Proclamations of the end of movies, the downtrodden future of filmmakers, and claims about piracy being equatable to outright theft were the tools of a Hollywood lobbier that itself exhibited the most underhanded sort of tactics in its attempts to get the internet to stop being the internet. It seems facile to state that this moral argument failed to find any purchase with the public, as filesharing went mainstream anyway. The reasons for this should be rather obvious: the arguments the MPAA made and the dooms it foresaw for itself and its industry were provably false. File sharing and piracy are a thing, yet movies still make gobs of money, allowing the MPAA to pay its executives the sort of handsome sums reserved for successful agencies. Still, Hollywood kept to its talking points. Piracy is wrong. Morally wrong.

But it seems that even the MPAA is ready to concede that it has fully lost this argument with the public. The latest from those that worked for the MPAA appears to be that it now wants to switch narratives from a moral argument to one of public danger.

The MPAA's former VP of Worldwide Internet Enforcement says that the industry narrative on piracy is no longer based on trying to get people to act ethically. Hemanshu Nigam says the discussion today is based around the dangers that pirate sites can pose to those who visit them. Few listened before, will they listen now?

Hemanshu Nigam is a former federal prosecutor, ex-Chief Security Officer for News Corp and Fox Interactive Media, and former VP Worldwide Internet Enforcement at the MPAA. In an interview with Deadline this week, he spoke about alleged links between pirate sites and malware distributors. He also indicated that warning people about the dangers of pirate sites has become Hollywood’s latest anti-piracy strategy.

“The industry narrative has changed. When I was at the MPAA, we would tell people that stealing content is wrong and young people would say, yeah, whatever, you guys make a lot of money, too bad,” he told the publication. “It has gone from an ethical discussion to a dangerous one. Now, your parents’ bank account can be raided, your teenage daughter can be spied on in her bedroom and extorted with the footage, or your computer can be locked up along with everything in it and held for ransom.”

Now, while Nigam works for the DCA (Digital Citizens Alliance), and the DCA is in part funded by the MPAA, it's worth carefully examining his and the MPAA's stance here to see whether this tactic will be any more effective than the previous moral argument. I think it's likely to fail, for several reasons. The first, as the TorrentFreak post points out, is that those that pirate content are consumers in the business sense. They are a form of customer for the sites that offer this sort of pirated content and they have all the same whims and wills of any paying customer. In other words, a site that lures the public in with pirated content for the purpose of deploying malware to them isn't going to keep its traffic for long.

In the Deadline piece, however, Nigam alleges that hackers have previously reached out to pirate websites offering $200 to $5000 per day “depending on the size of the pirate website” to have the site infect users with malware. If true, that’s a serious situation and people who would ordinarily use ‘pirate’ sites would definitely appreciate the details. For example, to which sites did hackers make this offer and, crucially, which sites turned down the offer and which ones accepted?

It's important to remember that pirates are just another type of consumer and they would boycott sites in a heartbeat if they discovered they'd been paid to infect them with malware. But, as usual, the claims are extremely light in detail. Instead, there's simply a blanket warning to stay away from all unauthorized sites, which isn't particularly helpful.

These sorts of blanket statements to stamp out piracy generally have the ring of a scare tactic for these reasons. Still, scare tactics can certainly work. Will this one? Again, I think not, due to a point we made earlier: file sharing is now mainstream. How many readers of Nigam's interview will be able to easily say that the doom he's warning them of hasn't happened to them as they've engaged in file sharing? The number is going to be quite large, it stands to reason. Rather than the scare tactic working, then, this will come off more like a Reefer Madness for piracy, an analogy everyone from TorrentFreak to the author of the Deadline interview seems to be making. If that happens, the DCA and MPAA take yet another hit to their credibility. There is even evidence that the public generally isn't listening to this latest argument of danger and those that are, are not particularly impressed.

Earlier this year the DCA launched a video campaign, enrolling 15 attorney generals to publish their own anti-piracy PSAs on YouTube. Thus far, interest has been minimal, to say the least. At the time of writing the 15 PSAs have 3,986 views in total, with 2,441 of those contributed by a single video contributed by Wisconsin Attorney General Brad Schimel. Despite the relative success, even that got slammed with 2 upvotes and 127 downvotes.

A few of the other videos have a couple of hundred views each but more than half have less than 70. Perhaps most worryingly for the DCA, apart from the Schimel PSA, none have any upvotes at all, only down. It’s unclear who the viewers were but it seems reasonable to conclude they weren’t entertained.

Not a great start for this narrative shift, to be sure. The public is steadily becoming more educated on the dangers of malware and viruses, as well as the proper security strategies for their electronic devices. Because of that, vague doomsayers warning of the digital apocalypse stemming from file sharing sites that have only become more popular aren't likely to find a great deal of fertile ground for their efforts.

On a related note, is all of this really easier and more effective than simply coming up with better ways to make money in the digital economy?

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Filed Under: copyright, piracy
Companies: mpaa

108 Comments

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Stamm, 16 Aug 2017 @ 1:38pm

So how long until they get caught injecting malware and uploading it to support the narritive that they are pushing.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 1:43pm

I await a new "pirate" website appearing that does nothing but serve up malware in the best geocities way possible.

Imagine if they stopped paying the MPAA to tell them the fairytale... its NEVER come true. They keep fighting reality, sure they can put the genie back into the bottle. How stupid are they to keep thinking something is magically going to chance the public view of them?

They have been hostile to the people willing to pay them, and are shocked people don't like being treated worse than dirt. They are so terrified of things changing they refuse to adapt because the sky might fall. They can list 1000 bad things they expect to happen, 500 of them came to pass only after they engaged in behavior that drove paying customers to other options.

The job is to sell us content.
The job is not to demand that we only use the approved player, at the approved time, in the approved place, with only the authorized number of viewers, with the authorized snacks.

They waste millions on sure fire ways to stop the pirates, but not a single cent in making sure consumers can access the content they want to pay for.
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John Snape (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 1:43pm

Just make it easier to get legally
Maybe we should just institute a mechanical royalty rate for all IP types?
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DONT BE STUPID BE EDUCATED, 16 Aug 2017 @ 1:45pm

no one cares about actors and muscians
no one cares about actors and muscians , and there wish to be utterly lazy for decades...

danger? what danger....only virus i ever got in past 15 years happened froma game trainer for a single player game....

now that windows ten no thanks
now there streaming , no thanks
now there laws , no thanks
now they cry what? DANGER? ya cause everyone has gone dark on htem and they cant figure out why no one buying crap they put out

KEYWORD CRAP...and i refuse to support people whom would sue the disabled , the poor , and they are the danger...to freedom and innovation and cultures future

THE MPAA IS A CULTURAL TERRORIST
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SirWired (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 1:55pm

Let me see if I follow...
Paraphrasing here: "Since piracy has not actually driven Hollywood bankrupt, it's not financially harmful, and they don't deserve that money anyway."

As an industry, movies do not make "gobs of money"; even the most profitable content machines, like Disney, have good years and bad years, and occasionally completely awful years that get studio execs fired.

I don't think the movie industry "lost" the moral argument (at least as to the legitimacy of piracy) so much as a segment of the populace chose to completely ignore because they wanted free stuff.

I won't argue that Hollywood/MPAA have completely clean hands, or that they didn't do some foot-shooting, and I won't deny that many of the tactics they have used to fight piracy have been awful by any measure, but I don't see any inherent flaws in the idea that content piracy is a bad thing, and people shouldn't do it.
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Roger Strong (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:00pm

The MPAA's argument against piracy is now identical my argument against turning my adblocker off when a site demands it.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:07pm

"Lost the moral battle", eh?
Not until The Law is no more.

To Techdirt, there's NOTHING worse than morality.

This is simply recognizing that "millenials" don't care about ANY morality. MPAA is shifting tactics in response to worsening moral environment. You should commend them for seeing reality.

However, courts are slow to change, and then much worse is that "both" sides in "politics" like police action, so expect to see more vigorous copyright enforcement such as actually kicking in doors. You all say that's coming soon. -- But now I've said it, you contrarians may reverse.

The drop in morality will affect you who giggle now: by time you retire and think deserve to live in ease, millenials born today will steal your property and life so casually as you steal movies and music now. You'll be old SOON, assuming don't over-dose or die of cirrhosis first, a burden to and dependent upon younger people. You won't be able to rely even on your own offspring. -- "Help, I've fallen and can't get up!" -- Millenials will use their phones to grab video, LAUGHING. -- THAT'S ALREADY OCCURRING, KIDS. -- And why should they help you? That's only old-fashioned "morality", while they might get a few bucks from Youtube if you die funnily enough. Maybe a few kicks will get you thrashing for better entertainment. Survival of the fittest, but most of you entertainment addicts are already among the fattest.

Oh, and you'll be a drain on corporate profits too, so they'll dump you any way can. -- Even better, come up with legal ways to profit from your death. Wal-Mart already insures geezer door greeters hoping they'll die.

Your future from the vanishing of "morality" and the increase of corporatized police state is bleak, kids. So enjoy stealing while you can.
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ECA (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:08pm

WHEN IN HELL??
Did corporate business Discover MORALS??
Cut personnel from the bottom up..
Cut hours so we dont pay Extra taxes, medical, and soforth..
Managers that get 40 hours a week pay $1 more then min wage, and work them 60 hours in Christmas season..
WE cut the lower employees, NOW lets cut bookkeepers and the paper work..FIRE OFFICE WORKERS..
Place people onCALL..and dont pay them, for sitting around WAITING for a phone call. and NEED to be at work in 30 minutes.
HIRE specific people, Female, With children, NO SPOUSE..They cant Strike, they cant Quit, and feed the kids or keep a home..
LET THE STATE HOUSE AND FEED THEM...we dont have to attitude and paychecks..

PS. this started in the 80's.. They CUT 1/3 in 4 years..
ONLY people that get PAID GOOD money are the Local distribution truckers..$14 per hour, and 60+ hours and over time IF NEEDED(holidays SUCK, and make you rich)
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:10pm

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh? -- Not until The Law is no more.
Boy, there does seem to be a length limit to titles now! Short too, had to cut off after dashes.

Techdirt will apparently cheat any way can. Without warning. Can't find any of these rules -- especially not regarding comment content -- except by experiment, and it's sometimes random too.
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DannyB (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:12pm

Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
Tech Dirt has pointed this out in the past.

Pirated movie: Insert disk, push play, enjoy moie.

Purchased movie: Insert disk, push play.
FBI warning
Homeland Security warning
Other warning
Unskippable ad for a movie released three years ago
Unskippable ad for a movie released five years ago
More warnings
More unskippable ads
Finally the movie starts, and you have already finished your popcorn.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:14pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh? -- Not until The Law is no more.
Yes, all websites publish their anti-spam techniques so that people can bypass them.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:14pm

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
"millenials" don't care about ANY morality."
"millenials born today will steal your property and life so casually as you steal movies and music now."

citations needed - of course

Seems you have an issue with the younger generation, perhaps you should seek professional help.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:15pm

Re: Let me see if I follow...
Hollywood/MPAA conveniently overlook that they are in Hollywood because that was where they could become pirates, and escape the control Edison was exercising over the use of his patented technology. Now they wish to control the technology that allows film makers to escape their control.

Their old, and new narrative on piracy makes much more sense when looked at as a tactic to try and gain control over the Internet.
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Roger Strong (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:16pm

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
> The drop in morality will affect you who giggle now: by time you retire and think deserve to live in ease, millenials born today will steal your property and life so casually as you steal movies and music now. You'll be old SOON, assuming don't over-dose or die of cirrhosis first, a burden to and dependent upon younger people. You won't be able to rely even on your own offspring.

The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 55 BC (attributed)

Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyranize their teachers.
- Socrates

An Assyrian clay tablet dating to around 2800 B.C. bears the inscription: “Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching.”
- Smithsonian.com

Just how old are you, to remember that "old-fashioned morality?"
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Chris Brand, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:17pm

Re: Let me see if I follow...
Disney has reported a positive net income every year since 1987 except for 2001. Since 2001, every year except 2009 has been better than the previous year.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:17pm

"Ooo, you torrent your entertainment because you're so broke and can't afford cable, Spotify or Amazon? That's soooo hawt baby. Take me now, sexy"
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SirWired (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
Disney, the company, might be consistently profitable over the years, but Disney Studios has not been an unending stream of profits.
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Gwiz (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:21pm

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
You sound like my Grandpa did back in the early 70's:

"All these dope smoking hippies have no morals or scruples with all their loud rock n roll and free love crap. The world is going go to hell in a hand basket, just you wait and see."

I'm still waiting.
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SirWired (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:23pm

Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
Edison and his patents are long-dead, and have nothing to do with anything today, other than as a historical footnote. There's no "convenient overlooking" here; it's simply something that's not relevant.

I am curious how being located in California magically allowed the side-stepping of patent law, which is federal (and Edison certainly had enough money to file federal lawsuits.)
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TKnarr (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:26pm

I think the new narrative will fall flat simply because people have already been exposed to the reality that one of the biggest sources of malware is legitimate web sites that host advertising. That's why the use of ad-blockers is on the rise. All people will do is shrug at the DCA and go "That's different from every other web site out there how again?".
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Dark Helmet (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
"I am curious how being located in California magically allowed the side-stepping of patent law, which is federal (and Edison certainly had enough money to file federal lawsuits.)"

Multiple ways, actually. First, the federal judges in California were known to be less sympathetic on patent law. Second, because this was the time of Edison, traveling wasn't as easy as it is today, making enforcement of the patents lengthy and expensive just from a travel standpoint. Third, that last bit is important because Edison's monopoly organization on film making, the MPPC, was about to lose its patents (due to time) and its business (due to the antitrust investigations against it), and couldn't therefore go traipsing around the country to enforce it's bullshit monopoly....
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:37pm

Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
Yes, and everyone knows Disney shouldn't be allowed to a make a profit. Aren't they evil-doers? All that entertaining of kids they do and their cable channels with no commercials. I mean, how are they allowed to get away with that stuff?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
Have you ever thought that Disney Studios may always make a loss because its parent Company, Disney over charges it for services. That is basic Hollywood accounting, make sure that the companies that make the films never make a profit, and so never pay out any royalties or profit share to those who made the film.
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Stephen T. Stone (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
Satan personally provides Disney with the best lawyers a child actor’s soul can buy.
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Roger Strong (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:45pm

Re:
Given exclusivity deals, the more accurate description is "you're so broke and can't afford cable AND Netflix AND Spotify AND Amazon AND HBO Go AND CBS All Access?"
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Chris Brand, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:46pm

Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
Nice strawman you have there.

I was simply responding to the assertion that "even the most profitable content machines, like Disney, have good years and bad years, and occasionally completely awful years that get studio execs fired."
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Thad, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:54pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
I like the "millennials born today" part, too.
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Thad, 16 Aug 2017 @ 2:55pm

Re: Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
That's assuming your disc is from the "correct" region and plays at all.
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Roger Strong (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:07pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
It's also worth mentioning that Edison is the grandfather of movie piracy.

The 1902 French silent film A Trip to the Moon (Le Voyage dans la Lune) was pioneering and influential and an internationally popular success. Edison fraudulently obtained a copy, duplicated it many times over, and started showing it in theatres all over America. With the original credits removed.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
You say that in jest but Disney is no angel, they are a corporation and we all know what they do.

Now, about hollywood accounting ...
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Billy Goatee, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:10pm

Creedence
The content providers should know, they are the sources of the viruses and malware.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:12pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
.. and GET OFF MY LAWN !!!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:14pm

Re: Re:
Yeah, we want a separate bill for each and every channel we watch. Be sure to include all those bogus extra charges like internet taxes 'n stuff.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:25pm

Said the legal supplier whose entertainment is full of malware, and whose business models relies on destroying other suppliers.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:28pm

Let's parse this out:

“It has gone from an ethical discussion to a dangerous one"

If he says so, I guess.

"Now, your parents’ bank account can be raided,"

Perhaps he's referring to the legal fees associated with fending off companies like Malibu Media?

"your teenage daughter can be spied on in her bedroom and extorted with the footage"

Facilitated, perhaps, by Sony's next generation DRM-turned-Malware?

"or your computer can be locked up along with everything in it and held for ransom.”

By the US Government in their role as a de facto enforcement arm of the MPAA? Does the MPAA really want to use Kim Dotcom as a poster child?

He's right. Those are all serious threats....
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SirWired (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:30pm

Not quite.
Disney Corporate doesn't charge Disney Studios for anything; the way Hollywood Accounting works is the distribution side of a studio over-charging the individual movie's production company for services.

In Disney's case, this would be carried out by Buena Vista Entertainment (Disney's distribution arm) over-billing a movie-specific subsidiary (say, an account held by Touchstone) for marketing services or DVD sales.

But since BVE and Touchstone are both under the Disney Studios umbrella, it's a wash as far as Disney Studios go, even if it might cook the books farther down the org chart.
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SirWired (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
Why would patent enforcement involve large amounts of coast-to-coast travel? It's not as if Edison somehow had the inability to hire lawyers based in California.
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Billy Goatee, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:34pm

Re: Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
Don't forget the endless production collaborations and brain cell destroying opening credits which gradually appear over an irrelevant background. The potential viewer is turned off before the movie starts and has already wasted enough time being forced to sit through all that. By the time it actually starts which is usually boring and mundane anyway, the viewer and family have switched to some other activity and don't come back. A theatre is worse because it has a captive audience who have already paid. Then for another 15-20 minutes they focus on trees or notebooks while some blaring score belts out and more credits are sneaked in. Or you sit through the whole boring stinking movie waiting for something to happen which never does.
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BG, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:41pm

Re:
Gotta love educated geeks. There's a place for them. Come over for dinner sometime.
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That One Guy (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:51pm

Enough strawmen to fill several fields
Paraphrasing here: "Since piracy has not actually driven Hollywood bankrupt, it's not financially harmful, and they don't deserve that money anyway."

No. Just... no.

People are pointing out that for years the AA's and hollywood have been crying about how copyright infringement was such an insane threat that it would destroy the industry, all the while time and time and time again bringing in record profits, such that people simply stopped taking them seriously when they claimed that copyright infringement was this huge issue and a problem and continued on with what they likely feel is a harmless activity, making copies of stuff.

You can only say the world is ending if X doesn't go away, only to have the world not end despite the fact that X is still there so many times before people stop listening to you.

As an industry, movies do not make "gobs of money"; even the most profitable content machines, like Disney, have good years and bad years, and occasionally completely awful years that get studio execs fired.

[Citation needed], see links above for counter-examples.

I don't think the movie industry "lost" the moral argument (at least as to the legitimacy of piracy) so much as a segment of the populace chose to completely ignore because they wanted free stuff.

Because that particular strawman never gets old...

Study, after study, after study have shown that those dastardly 'pirates' tend to buy more than non-pirates.

They don't 'want free stuff', they are perfectly willing to buy, what they don't want to do is jump through a bunch of hoops, be treated like crap, pay unreasonable prices all to get a product that's demonstrably worse than the free version. Offer a service that's easy to use, convenient and at a fair price and you'll have people throwing money at you even if they could have gotten the content for free.

I won't argue that Hollywood/MPAA have completely clean hands, or that they didn't do some foot-shooting, and I won't deny that many of the tactics they have used to fight piracy have been awful by any measure, but I don't see any inherent flaws in the idea that content piracy is a bad thing, and people shouldn't do it.

Which is something most people here won't disagree with in general(despite repeated lies by certain individuals stating otherwise), the point being made is that it's going to happen regardless, so it's much better to either ignore it, try to make it work for you, or take it as an indication that a particular market is being underserved and fix that.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 3:55pm

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
You didn't read the article. If you had you would have known moral panics are you.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:03pm

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:11pm

Re: WHEN IN HELL??
I hope the Lithium starts helping soon.
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Thad, 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:21pm

Re: Re: Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
...you...haven't seen a movie in awhile, have you?
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shane (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:26pm

No. You don't follow. Allow me to elaborate.
You lose me at "wanted free stuff".

We pay for the same damned thing repeatedly. 100+ years of copyright. Our entire culture is locked behind a paywall.

The only people wanting free stuff are the distributors, and they have gotten enough free stuff for any ten lifetimes.

The reason entertainment is hard to make money from? IT'S CHILD'S PLAY! Playing football is not work. Singing and dancing is not work. Playing pretend in front of a camera is not work.

I am not saying such things need to be stifled, but creating laws to threaten people's lives if they make copies of people doing such things is fascism, and acting like people are going to STOP PLAYING PRETEND IN FRONT OF A CAMERA *GASP* if we don't have copyright is just ... gaggingly pathetic.

Either find a way to work daily singing and dancing and playing pretend, or sing and dance and play pretend as a HOBBY, like everyone else does.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:30pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
out*

Stupid fat fingers.
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shane (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:33pm

Thous Shalt Not Lie
Oh my God.

Copying is not theft. The entire PURPOSE of copyright is to control communication as an end around to laws that began to emerge against overt censorship. Just my opinion? Fine. Surely it is just your opinion then that doing something yourself is the exact same thing as taking something right out of someone's HOUSE and keeping it for yourself.

I can think of little that qualifies as a more overt and stupid lie.

If an artist wants to make a living, they need to work daily doing that art. If it is acting, they need to act daily. If it is singing, they need to sing daily. That is what work is like. It is a daily grind. It is what we all are supposed to do. Work.

"In the sweat of thy brow thou shalt eat bread, and thorns and thistles shall the ground bear for thee."

Pardon my crap paraphrase skills.

What on God's green EARTH makes you think singers and dancers and artists deserve anything better? How in the WORLD do you get to a moral argument threatening VIOLENCE against people for making COPIES for themselves rather than paying you extortionist's rates to do it for us?

You may well just burn in hell.
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Roger Strong (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:36pm

Re: Re: Re:
The music industry had those bogus charges. Built into the price of a DVD was a 10% "breakage fee" that went back not to vinyl records, but to shellac and slate records. A decade ago it was included into downloads.

Late in the cassette and CD era there was usually one only song per album worth paying for. The rest was filler. iTunes fixed that. Netflix became the video equivalent, at least in the US, but...

It seems the cable companies and movie studios are trying to destroy streaming video by forcing it into the "single hit plus filler" model.

Here in Canada the last year of the Colbert Report was moved to an expensive specialty channel with nothing worthwhile to offer. CBS's new Star Trek series will only on a CBS streaming service in the US, and only on a specialty channel in Canada. Etc. Etc. To buy any song you have to pay for an album full of filler.

And we know how that turned out with music.
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Madd the Sane (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
He still had to contact them. The phone wasn't invented yet (I don't think), leaving only telegraph as a means of communication. And you had to pay for each word.

That leaves the issue as to how he'd pay them. He'd have to hire someone to make sure the money got to the right place, ride a train over to California (a process that could take days), and talk to the lawyers.
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Unanimous Cow Herd (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:55pm

The real threat
The real threat to Hollywood (and somewhat by extension the news conglomerates) is recycling. I'd rather watch original youtube content than regurgitated ideas on television or BluRay. Add to that the fact that Hollywood doubles down on bad ideas all the time, it's no wonder people won't pay theater ticket prices anymore. (Prime example: An Inconvenient Sequel). Go peddle your fear mongering somewhere else. The last infection one of my devices got was courtesy of Sony's BMG Rootkit.
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Roger Strong (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 4:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
He'd also probably have to hire an engineer to accompany the lawyer, to determine whether the technology patent was violated. And pay the engineer not just for that, but for the time needed to get up to speed on the patent's new technology.

There would also be a delay for a copy of the patent to be produced, then mailed across the country by train.
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Ryunosuke (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 5:19pm

The ultimate irony...
I've been listening to Bob and Tom (Yes, it's still around) and for the past.... week or two they have been playing adverts for AT&T Fiber (being in Indy, Prices may vary, not available in all areas, etc). And their two main points is

a) You can download 25 songs/second
b) You can download an episode of your favorite show in under a minute.

I am suuuuure that the MPAA/RIAA is totally fine with that kind of advertisement, right?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 6:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
From what I have read about Edison, I am only surprised that he didn't put himself in the credits.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 6:39pm

Re: Let me see if I follow...
No, you don't follow. What we see here is a prime example of the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" running its full course.

If I made a police report that I was being robbed blind, yet lived an extravagant lifestyle, I would lose my credibility. The MPAA is not magically immune to this scrutiny.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 6:47pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
The funny thing is, millennials weren't the problem. If millennials were the problem you'd see the RIAA and MPAA going after millennials - but they didn't. The RIAA and MPAA went after children and senior citizens, who could pose no legal or monetary opposition to their accusations. Either they paid up or their guardians did.

Before the millennials there was Generation X, the generation that lived off of mixtapes and recorded songs taken off free-to-air radio. They were the millennials of their time, and they had to suffer the same "music consumed in the way we don't like is morally evil" spiel. Not only did they largely ignore these warnings, they haven't suddenly become a generation of thieves.

out_of_the_blue is talking out of his second mouth, as usual.
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ECA (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 7:09pm

Re: Re: WHEN IN HELL??
tHEN HOW ABOUT THE !970'S DISPUTE OVER Movie and music WAGES..

Both industries kept certain people ON CONTRACT and never raised how much they were Given.
EVEn after they became Stars.. under contract from 5-10 years, there was NO renegotiation.. NO profit sharing NOTHING.

NOW the price of a movie..and MOVIE profit.
Movies are MONEY.. HOLD the movies to be RENTED/LEASED and returned, and you can Cover up any profit, in USE/handling/shipping expenses..and anything else you want to add to it..
Companies have been Swapping products back and forth for SOOO LONG..insted of paying money, they Give a movie and ALL its rights..and you can Price it at ANYTHING...because there is no END on copyright.

TELL me the story of PUBLIC DOMAIN.,..and I will show you an ALMOST empty space.
For all the movies CREATED..you might find 10% out in the wild.. OTHERS have been COLLECTED, but small groups and persons..NEVER to be seen again..OR RUINED and never had the Original material/FILM updated... LOST..
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MyNameHere (profile), 16 Aug 2017 @ 9:17pm

Quoting Torrent Freak will always get you the same sort of angles on a story.

I don't think the MPAA has "lost" a moral war. Rather, I think they realize that they have reached a stalemate position on it, where certain groups will always think piracy is acceptable and they won't change their minds. Also, with personal piracy (aka, torrents) on the wain, the question has shifted to streaming, streaming boxes, and streaming sites.

Torrent Freak will always say that anything other than 100% anti-piracy means they gave up. It's just not supported by reality.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 10:34pm

Re:
You might not want to belittle people's warped realities, given your track record in that area.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Aug 2017 @ 10:38pm

Re:
So what about the actual quote from Nigam? That doesn't look like a paradigm shift from "moral" to "scare" angles to you?
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MyNameHere (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 12:19am

Re: Re:
He says the discussion has moved. It does not mean that they have given up a moral stand as well. Torrent Freak says they "lost", but there is no indication of that. It's just the discussion has moved to other areas that are perhaps a little more pressing and real to end users.

If you cannot convince them with a moral angle, perhaps one that highlights the risks in downloading / streaming from random places might work on some. That doesn't mean the moral angle isn't there, just that it's reached a certain point where it's no longer moving forward.

I saw recently on Twitter someone posting about how millenials and hipsters have pretty much buggered everything cool up. Downloading appears to be another one of them.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 12:29am

Re: Thous Shalt Not Lie
Tell me again the difference between you and a white supremacist skin-head? What makes you think you can judge what people "deserve", you supremacist? Copying is theft, you supremacist. They do not need to work every day, you supremacist, in the US they can record their work and own the exclusive title, you idiot. Keep talking, you speak for a lot of superemacists on this site. Bury yourself in your idiocy. Go ahead.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 12:50am

Re: Re: Re:
It's somewhat amusing you put stock in random Twitter comments but regularly dismiss other discussions. Or that you think downloading is "cool".

If you don't think they've lost, based on what Nigam has said, what indication do you have that the stand isn't being left behind as they've moved onto the malware scare? The latest malware, password leaks etc. aren't originating from "pirate" sites. If that's the angle they're expecting to gain ground with the whole Internet is at risk.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 1:01am

Re: Let me see if I follow...
"I don't see any inherent flaws in the idea that content piracy is a bad thing, and people shouldn't do it."

As a basic concept, that's fine. But, it the way the industry deals with it and refuses to own up to a very simply reality (no matter what they do, piracy has always happened, and always will).

If you start with bullshit about every download being a lost sales, start suing your own customers, refuse to service customer demand, make it more difficult and expensive for people to buy your product, etc. you have lost the high ground on all sides.

"As an industry, movies do not make "gobs of money""

Google "Hollywood accounting" and start learning why.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 1:04am

Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I follow...
....and what was the reason for lower income in the years where they didn't? Was it really piracy, or were they making a stream of shitty movies nobody wanted to see? Disney will no doubt prefer you believed the former, but I suspect the truth is in the latter.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 1:07am

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
He also doesn't know what "Millennial" means to begin with, so he doesn't know who he's whining about other than he heard that word to dismiss people with.

Hint: people born today don't fit in that category.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 1:12am

Re: Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
My favourite recently was watching a movie I purchased in the UK. The first thing that came up was an FBI warning. So, now I'm getting warnings from agencies that don't even have jurisdiction in the country I bought the disk from (it was a UK disc too, BBFC certificate and everything).
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PaulT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 1:19am

Re:
"Rather, I think they realize that they have reached a stalemate position on it, where certain groups will always think piracy is acceptable and they won't change their minds"

The problem is, it took them 15 years after the fact to realise this and wasted a lot of money and goodwill on counterproductive solutions that would never work.

It's great that they're finally coming around to reality, they just need to look at the half-assed solutions they're still offering and improve them. For example - you know why those streaming sites are more popular than torrents now? Convenience. You know why people pay for Netflix? Convenience. You know why piracy still exists? It's more convenient for people to got to a single streaming source and find what they want rather than maintain multiple subscriptions and try and work out which title is on which service.

The main issue is the same one as it ever was - when pirates offer a better service than the legal options, people use them. They will pay for a decent legal option, but they will still pirate when that legal option fails them. The industry needs to stop failing.
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PaulT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 1:21am

Re: Re: Re:
You think downloading is "cool"? You may have missed the reason people were doing it to begin with.

"If you cannot convince them with a moral angle, perhaps one that highlights the risks in downloading / streaming from random places might work on some."

...and when people realise that there's little risk if you exercise some common sense security measures? Do they still try to play games, or do they finally fill the gaps between what people are paying for and the additional features the pirates give them?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 3:10am

Re: Let me see if I follow...
Not to forget that the MPAA just can't stop themselves from stealing content of the "musicians and artists" they claim to be protecting. That isn't even including their false DMCAs but their use of other's materials in their own without getting permission.

It is hard for a thief to make a convincing argument against stealing.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 3:34am

the main aims of the MPAA and RIAA has always been to stop anyone from finding out how they manage to keep all the monies, prevent anyone from reducing their income, including their own artists, and, more importantly than anything, to get control of the Internet, the best distribution platform invented so far on the Planet, particularly as it's free!! their expense would be how they used it and what they did with it but as in their usual operating mode, they want to be able to have free websites that are covered with adverts, giving links to further adverts and offering downloads at snail pace, which themselves are full of adverts, of shit quality, only available at high street prices (which you can only play once for the monetary fee!), in a single format, not able to be captured and available months after the disk is released, not just the cinema version! ie, do anything and everything that costs them nothing, that they can charge a fortune for while screwing their own customers over as much and as often as possible, as always!! the only 'DANGER' is from them themselves, always has been and always will be! and to have the FBI telling their lies as well is a fucking disgrace!!
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MyNameHere (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:42am

Re: Re:
"The problem is, it took them 15 years after the fact to realise this and wasted a lot of money and goodwill on counterproductive solutions that would never work."

I don't think so.

If nobody had stood up, where would we be?

Can you imagine a world of just Napster, no itunes, no spotify, no nothing? Somepared to where it all started, the moral message has certainly had a profound effect (both positive and negative) on the concept of downloading pirated material.

Where do you think we would be without them taking a stand? What do you think would have happened if the MPAA and artists just bent over and took it?
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PaulT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:55am

Re: Re: Re:
You have a very strange way of viewing these things, no wonder your worldview is so completely screwed.

Nobody "stood up". The recording industry fought directly against digital music being a marketplace at all. They then fought tooth and nail against Apple offering the iTunes store, they fought against anyone offering DRM-free music, they fought against devices being capable of storing large amounts of music, they fought against streaming services. They refused time and time again to service the demand being made by customers. This is why things like Napster were popular - they serviced the demand that the industry refused to offer legally. People wouldn't have used Napster at all if Spotify had been there already, and the industry keeps trying to screw Spotify over right now.

The one and only thing that has made a real difference is nothing to do with the "morality". It's down to whether acceptable legal options are available. Piracy rates go down whenever the industry does this.

"What do you think would have happened if the MPAA and artists just bent over and took it?"

What do you think would have happened if they just gave customer what they wanted instead of spending millions fighting to avoid having to do so?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 6:27am

These PSAs are ridiculous because nobody actually believes the rhetoric being spread by the government and the entertainment industry about pirate sites. Most of us just ignore that kind of crap. I'm sure there are many of us here who download regularly and this kind of crap will not deter someone from downloading a torrent.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 6:28am

Re: Re: Thous Shalt Not Lie
Eat shit Hamilton.
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Ninja (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 6:51am

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
I'm a millenial and I'm actually giving money (as in, giving, no strings attached) so Mike and crew can keep writing these awesome articles. I guess I'll go back and steal him once he gets old according to your wisdom eh?

No seriously grandpa, be careful with your blood pressure, no need yelling so much at the clouds.
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Ninja (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 6:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"What do you think would have happened if they just gave customer what they wanted instead of spending millions fighting to avoid having to do so?"

A lot of money would have been made instead of left on the table. We can't have it, we must act idiotically. - MAFIAA
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DannyB (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 7:43am

Re: Re: Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
Don't forget the THX insert that destroys your hearing prior to the movie. Once the movie starts, your ears are still ringing if not in actual pain.
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DannyB (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 7:45am

Re: Creedence
Sony in 2005 was a literal example of this. If you put their audio CD into your PC, it installed a rootkit with software to prevent you ripping the CD.
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DOlz (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 7:56am

Re: Just make it easier to get legally
No. That will just lead collection agencies and the large players getting rich, with very little if any reaching the average IP producers. Also why should anyone have to pay an IP royalty for devices that are never going to be used to download someone else’s IP?
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nerd bert (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 8:42am

Re:
The MPAA/Hollywood have failed at making a moral argument? Excuse me, I must have misplaced my shocked face somewhere around here.

After all, we're talking about organizations have misled the courts about what they were doing to track down "pirates", have consistently lied to consumers about things like backing up the content they've purchased, and have gleefully attempted to abuse consumers at every point they could (how many of you wanted to avoid the preview adverts at the start of your DVDs only to find that Hollywood did all it could to make sure you couldn't?), etc. And yet the public couldn't see past all that to see how righteous the argument they've been making really IS?! How unenlightened of the hoi polloi!

Yeah, so absent honeypot sites attempting to make Hollywood's point I doubt anything has changed with the MPAA's new tack.
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JustMe (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 8:51am

Uhh no
"...enrolling 15 attorney generals to publish"

FTFY
"...enrolling 15 attorney generals to publish" (SIC - attorneys general)
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 10:00am

Oh, now the MAFIAA cares about the pirates' safety.

This is not The Onion.
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crade (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 12:17pm

Re: Let me see if I follow...
"since piracy has not actually driven Hollywood bankrupt"
More like because there is no evidence or even any reasonable indication of it having any negative impact whatsoever.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 4:51pm

Re: Just make it easier to get legally
No. That is just a rentist and speculative scheme.

Want to get paid? Do something that actually spends your TIME, like a live show. You work an hour you get paid an hour. Not like today where some people work a few days on a production and then they expect to be paid forever in eternity by anyone and every time they experience said production.

You are a movie producer, cannot do live shows? How is that our problem? Why should we the people, society in general, give up our rights to freedom of speech, freedom of press, anonymity, privacy, copying and sharing so said producer can have his/her way with profit?

The more hours you work, the more you get paid, really that simple. The others schemes are just rentist and speculative, parasitic, unfair and generate huge inequalities in society.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 4:55pm

Re: Let me see if I follow...
Agree with everything except: "As an industry, movies do not make "gobs of money"; even the most profitable content machines, like Disney, have good years and bad years, and occasionally completely awful years that get studio execs fired."

That is simply not true. If that was true we would see less companies, less production houses, less TV channels, less movies produced, less of everything, which simply is NOT the case.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 4:58pm

Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
Law is one thing and moral is another. There are many laws that are simply wrong and immoral. Hows slavery (hint: How USA was built on) for a moral law?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:01pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
He/she is projecting a memory of him/herself when young. He is just remembering how an idiot of a teen he was and now that he is old he is scared of the new teens. LOL
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:04pm

Re: Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
And don't forget those "nasty" book copiers, from which all this cr madness started. Or those "evil" pirates, actual pirates, who refused to be killers, robbers and slaves for the king.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:06pm

Re: Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
and don't smoke my grass you goddamn hippies...your clothes are so colorful and chilled...
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:12pm

Re: Re: Thous Shalt Not Lie
"in the US..."

who is the supremacist? We don't care what happens or what is going on "in the US". We are not USA, we don't have their laws, we don't want their laws, we don't need their laws, we don't abide by their laws, we have our own laws.

He is not judging anyone. You are the one who thinks that someone just for making a beat or a (mainly CGI) movie is entitled to money from every one. Talk about entitlement and supremacists you ignorant.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:16pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
Agree. And enough already with the old people, millenials, generation X bull crap. There is no such thing as "generations". There is people of the world literally of all ages, all religions, all cultures, all tastes and all goals that vae nothing to do with when, where or how they were born, or what is their age.

Saying all millenials are like this or all old people is like that is STUPID, and just a generalization that contributes nothing to any discussion. What is old people anyway? What age? What physical characteristics? What fitness level? What mental structure? What moral? What set of beliefs?

All just utter crap.

There is no such thing as generations
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:26pm

Re: Re: WHEN IN HELL??
Why? You are so anxious already?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:31pm

Re: Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
To that purchased movie list you forgot to mention all these:
- the $16 hard earned USD you actually had to let go
- no copying, no sharing, no remixing, no reutilizing
- geoblocks
- device locks
- most money DOES NOT go to authors
- many more but I am lazy now
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:32pm

Re:
"I hear you, you gold digger biOtch."
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:33pm

Re:
Sure, your mid tier car and your daddy's paid education looks sooooo hot. Sure.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:34pm

Re:
Further, people around the world have been greatly exposed to the FACT that the biggest malware producer of them all is the NSA.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:37pm

Re:
All brought to you by the NSA. And that is a fact. Thank you Snowden.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:40pm

Re: The real threat
Exactly. The real threat to mainstream media and news is USER GENERATED MEDIA and SOCIAL MEDIA, where it is at these days: actual useful information, actual insights on what is really going on, actual critique, actual inspiring and positive messages, true experimentation and risk-taking, by real people. Not the regurgitated same ol same ol BS of always from MSM.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Aug 2017 @ 5:53pm

Re:
Quoting MPAA will always get you the same sort of angles on a story.

FIXED.

"certain groups will always think piracy is acceptable and they won't change their minds"

Well, that is exactly what losing a moral war means.
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JMT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 6:04pm

Re: Let me see if I follow...
"As an industry, movies do not make "gobs of money"..."

Nice little twist of words there; was it intentional? Individual movies may not make huge profits but the movie industry sure as hell does. The whole industry model is to rip off as many people as possible to make as much money as possible. They have zero moral high ground, so defending them with moral arguments is a waste of time and effort.
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JMT (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 6:09pm

Re: Re: "Lost the moral battle", eh?
"All these dope smoking hippies have no morals or scruples..."

Now they run the MPAA, etc...
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Roger Strong (profile), 17 Aug 2017 @ 11:42pm

Re: Re: Just make it easier to get legally

Want to get paid? Do something that actually spends your TIME, like a live show.

Few are interested in live shows. The current system where money is spent based on demand, is better.

The more hours you work, the more you get paid, really that simple.

Nonsense. Education, experience and talent all count, and should be factored in.

And even then, demand and one's choices should override that. I recently had dinner with an old friend who is now highly educated and deep in tuition debt - for something with no demand whatsoever. He's now a security guard for an arena loading dock. I wouldn't call it unfair.

For family-owned business even nepotism is valid - as providing a better future for one's kids is a driving factor for the owner to put in the hard work and take the risks getting started.
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jameshogg (profile), 18 Aug 2017 @ 7:20am

"In the Deadline piece, however, Nigam alleges that hackers have previously reached out to pirate websites offering $200 to $5000 per day “depending on the size of the pirate website” to have the site infect users with malware. If true, that’s a serious situation and people who would ordinarily use ‘pirate’ sites would definitely appreciate the details. For example, to which sites did hackers make this offer and, crucially, which sites turned down the offer and which ones accepted?

It's important to remember that pirates are just another type of consumer and they would boycott sites in a heartbeat if they discovered they'd been paid to infect them with malware. But, as usual, the claims are extremely light in detail. Instead, there's simply a blanket warning to stay away from all unauthorized sites, which isn't particularly helpful."

I can't hear you over the sound of my Virtual Machine snapshots.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Aug 2017 @ 1:54pm

Re: Re: Thous Shalt Not Lie
Hey, asshole.

Tell me again the difference between you and an asshole?
What makes you think you can judge what people say, you supremacist? You are an asshole, you supremacist. They should work every day, you supremacist, because otherwise you are a hypocrite, you supremacist. Keep talking, you speak for a lot of assholes on this site. Bury yourself in your supremacy. Go ahead.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Aug 2017 @ 5:32pm

Re:
So you actually gave them some more views huh? hope ate least you downvoted the shit out of them and NO comments...

Hopefully too, you ripped the videos to watch later in VLC, giving no views to them...
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Aug 2017 @ 5:53pm

Re: Uhh no
if you aks me that whas fine...
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Aug 2017 @ 6:09pm

Re: Re: Re:
Just Napster.....hahahahaha, yours truly, the pirate bay and all torrent sites, kodi and all streaming sites, popcorn time, gnutella, soulseek, edonkey/emule, DDL sites, Mega and all cyberlockers, Usenet, social media piracy, youtube, google, and g drive piracy, etc etc etc....LOOOOL
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Spaceman Spiff (profile), 22 Aug 2017 @ 9:54am

Re: Re: Switch from Moral argument to Convenience argument
Right! That's why my DVD/VHS player is region-agnostic, and even plays PAL or NTSC tapes! Very nice Panasonic gear I got about 10 years ago!
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