New Whistleblowers Highlight How Russia's Information War On U.S. Was Larger Than Initially Reported

from the pouring-gasoline-on-a-bonfire dept

Thu, Oct 19th 2017 1:36pm — Karl Bode

A few years ago, Russian whistleblowers like Lyudmila Savchuk began to reveal that Vladimir Putin had built a massive new internet propaganda machine. At the heart of this machine sat the "Internet Research Agency," a Russian government front company tasked with operating warehouses filled with employees paid 40,000 to 50,000 rubles ($800 to $1,000) a month to create proxied, viable fake personas -- specifically tasked with pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day. Initial reports on these efforts were often playful, suggesting little more than shitposting and memes.

Subsequent reports by folks like Adrian Chen at the New York Times highlighted in great detail how deep this particular rabbit hole went. Chen detailed how these efforts often went well beyond routine online trolling, and frequently extended into the real world (like the time online trolls urged American citizens to visit a Russian-operated Chelsea art gallery solely to try and distort and downplay the country's annexation of Crimea). By the summer of 2016, reports began to emerge that these same employees were also posing as Trump supporters to help stoke already raw political divisions in the States.

Fast forward to this week, when Russian newspaper RBC issued a fairly massive and comprehensive report (in Russian, the Guardian has an alternative take here) showing that these efforts went even further than most initial reports indicated. From the creation of popular Texas secessionist Facebook groups to the hiring of more than 100 U.S. activists who had no idea they were working for Russia -- all tasked with stoking division inside the United States:

Perhaps the most alarming element of the article was the claim that employees of the troll factory had contacted about 100 real US-based activists to help with the organisation of protests and events. RBC claimed the activists were contacted by Facebook group administrators hiding their Russian origin and were offered financial help to pay for transport or printing costs. About $80,000 was spent during a two-year period, according to the report.

And while some on both sides of the political spectrum have tried to downplay Russia's propaganda and disinformation efforts as amateurish, unimportant and ineffective, the collective scope of the IRA's work revealed by whistleblowers continues to indicate otherwise:

Today, business site RBC revealed the numbers that allegedly made the company work. It reports that over two years the agency spent $2.3 million on its US operations. Most of that was spent on Russian staff—around 90 employees were working on the US at the height of the trolling campaign in 2016—but it also paid for 100 US activists to travel around America, organizing 40 rallies in US cities, and spent $120,000 spreading their message on Facebook. (The Silicon Valley giant has admitted that thousands of ads were bought under Russian IP addresses during the campaign.) The 100 activists didn’t suspect any Russian involvement in the funding, RBC reports.

In addition to the RBC report, Russian journalists at Dozhd interviewed a new whistleblower named "Maxim" who worked at the Internet Research Agency. According to Maxim, the organization included a "Russian desk," a "foreign desk," a "Facebook desk," and a "Department of Provocations." Whereas the Russian desk operated the country's now infamous Twitter bots and online trolls, the foreign desk was notably more sophisticated in its information assaults, trained in the more nuanced aspects of U.S. politics in order to "set Americans against their own government," and "provoke unrest and discontent."

Meanwhile, the Russian government's Facebook desk was tasked with battling Facebook administrators who would try to delete fake accounts and groups -- and who would often buckle to opposition from Russian trolls who raised First Amendment concerns when challenged:

"The troll farm also had its own "Facebook desk," whose function was to relentlessly push back against the platform's administrators who deleted fake accounts as they began gaining traction. When Internet Research Agency employees argued against having their accounts deleted, Max said, Facebook staffers would write back, "You are trolls." The trolls would in turn invoke the First Amendment right to free speech — occasionally, they won the arguments.

By the latter half of 2016, up to a third of the Internet Research Agency was tasked with stoking existing tensions ahead of the U.S. election, according to yet another report by Russian media outlet Meduza. Another whistleblower claims that the IRA's goal wasn't always specificlly to aid Trump, but to help encourage American infighting, contributing to partisan gridlock in the States (though the IRA's disinformation work is just one prong in Russia's efforts, and the Mueller investigation may obviously have more to say on this subject in time).

The RBC report notes that Chen's 2015 bombshell story in particular forced the Russian government to notably revamp its disinformation efforts, so what it looks like now is far from certain. What is certain is that Russia's online disinformation efforts -- a response to years of equally brazen efforts by the United States -- are just the latest in a multi-generational cold war that perpetually seeks to take horrible ideas to new and obnoxious levels. The biggest concern now isn't just how a country immeasurably susceptible to bullshit combats this kind of attack, but just how ham-fisted and harmful the United States' inevitable response will be.

Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.

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Filed Under: elections, influence, russia, russian trolls, trolls

116 Comments

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Reader Comments

The First Word

“

Re: a very old game

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

"Yawn" indeed.

—Thad

”

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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 1:45pm

Congratulations
You only said what I have been saying for a long time.

Americans are stupid and will believe stupid stuff and then vote in the idiots based on that stupid stuff... but I am usually accused of victim blaming.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 1:51pm
  
  Re: Congratulations
  "I" and "Anonymous Coward" are meaningless when used together in the same post. Self-congratulation is particularly pointless. You entire point is lost in the uselessness of your post.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 12:16am
  
  Re: Congratulations
  It is clearly not just Americans. Populism, and pandering to people’s worst instincts, and exploiting people’s general dissatisfaction with 'the establishment', is an effective way to manipulate populations everywhere. The only real defence is an educated and informed populace. Turn off the TV and don’t watch/listen/read anything produced by a company owned or funded by any billionaire. It's ALL propaganda.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 6:01am
    
    Re: Re: Congratulations
    The trolls do not care if something is clear or obvious, they get paid for their spew regardless.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      
      Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:33pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Congratulations
      Yes, that is why those people at CNN, Fox, MSNBC, New York Times, Washington Post, etc make millions every year. Agree with you.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 1:48pm

If Mueller has any credibility with you, you have BIG problems.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 1:59pm
  
  Re:
  Hello Ivan, looks like you Ruskie boys are up early today.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 3:47pm
    
    Re: Re:
    didn't take 'em long, huh? they validate the article.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      
      Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:36pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      "They"...coming from an anonymous coward. LOL.
      If Russia can pay for a thousand trolls the USA can pay for a billion trolls. USA has all the money you fool.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:37pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Hi John.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 4:25pm
  
  Re:
  You seem a bit defensive given that Mueller was mentioned once, barely, in the entire post.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Narcissus (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:58am
    
    Re: Re:
    That, to me, is not even remotely the point. I'm also surprised that it was so low a budget and it probably didn't move the needle much.
    
    What should worry Americans is that they elected a president that was pushed by the Russians. They now have a man in charge that has the Putin stamp of approval.
    
    Especially since he was elected on a wave of Jingoism that should raise a lot of red flags with his supporters. They seem to care the least though.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      
      Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:38pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Nah, what should worry americans is the increasing inequality and the increasing war and invasions they do.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 1:51pm

$2.3 million dollars seems like a drop in the bucket compared to how much is spent on the presidential election.
Heck ShareBlue and Correct the Record had bigger budgets.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 1:58pm
  
  Re:
  I wonder what kind of budget was used to do exactly the same to other countries leading up to their elections. UK, Germany and others who have relations with the US are the ones that I would expect the most to be spent on.
  
  It also sounds like next time, all Russia has to do is use people already in the US for the entire thing and nothing would ever be discerned about their involvement.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:41pm
    
    Re: Re:
    You are stupid.
    
    Why don't you wonder how much money USA has spent over decades invading other countries, overthrowing governments and basically SPYING ON ALL THE WORLD. No one has a bigger "defense" budget, by far, than the USA does.
    
    Why don't you wonder about you hypocrite.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- MyNameHere (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:14am
  
  Re:
  A very small amount in theory, but given to the right people in the right places, it gets plenty of value. Many of these groups operate for nothing or next to nothing, so even $1000 would be a huge windfall for them to work with.
  
  Politicians spend hundreds of millions, but it's mostly the firehose of shit flung against random walls. Most of it doesn't stick, and much of it sticks in the wrong places.
  
  2.3 million of targeted motivation of groups is really a big way to start echos in the chamber.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:44pm
    
    Re: Re:
    "Many of these groups operate for nothing or next to nothing"
    
    How would you know? Proof or GTFO.
    
    If Russia can pay for a thousand trolls, then USA is paying for a million trolls. You fool.
    
    Remind me. Who is invading Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Libya and all the rest of the countries??? That needs a HUGE propaganda machine, to convince so many idiots like you.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:03pm

OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
HA, HA, HA, HA! Holy cow, you're a parody of a cardboard cutout as done by a first grader in puce color crayon!

Had to quit reading and close the window before I busted something, but this is one time I've for sure got the gist of your insanity from headline and that phrase.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:09pm
  
  Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
  "Had to quit reading and close the window before I busted something"
  No, you didn't, dumbass, you threw up some bile in the comments before you closed the window.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:44pm
    
    Re: Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
    Exactly. Keep talking.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:16pm
  
  Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
  I'm assuming this is meant to be be a diss at Techdirt but your lack of grasp on the English language has turned it into a meaningless bunch of gibberish.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Vidiot (profile), 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:28pm
    
    Re: Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
    Need to read this aloud using Bullwinkle's "Boris and Natasha" accents.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:31pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
      Heh, you're right. Reading the original post like that makes it much better.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 6:04am
      
      Re: Re: Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
      One of the best cartoons ever
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 6:27am
  
  Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
  "HA, HA, HA, HA! Holy cow, you're a parody of a cardboard cutout as done by a first grader in puce color crayon!"
  
  You are the worst AI ever.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
  
  Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:46pm
  
  Re: OMG! You're back to "pumping the internet full of toxic disinformation 24 hours a day"!!!
  Don't censor this Techdirt. You have been nailed.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:06pm

What I like BEST is minion's certainty that Americans are so stupid that fell for it.
Oh, and INSTEAD OF falling for the BILLIONS spent by candidates and other parties.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:27pm
  
  Re: What I like BEST is minion's certainty that Americans are so stupid that fell for it.
  Ah, so Americans are too smart to fall for sneaky and subtle propaganda campaigns but blatantly obvious propaganda goes right over their heads.
  
  Excellent logic, I like it.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
  
  Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:47pm
  
  Re: What I like BEST is minion's certainty that Americans are so stupid that fell for it.
  They got Trump! looooooooooooool
  
  They (americans) don't need Russians to fuck things up. They can do it themselves.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:08pm

If a troll gets you mad, and you respond with anger *in public*, you lose.

Now maybe this means you're getting more than incensed, maybe you want to "wreck" the system that delivers the troll comments, too. Maybe ruin the social media platform's profit or reputation. Maybe destroy the government that lets the business run "unchecked".

Maybe? Maybe not? Better to think about what trolling does for the perpetrator and why it keeps working so well. But that trolling exists and is so *awful* in the first place is all anyone can think about.

There is not enough people available to sort through all the Internet's daily traffic. For example: If there's 2 billion Facebook users on average, how many people would you need to moderate all the user-submitted content, all the time, and still maintain a service that works in a timely manner?

Filtering *everything* to combat trolling is a fool's errand, so people had best start learning how to avoid it or ignore it. (Genuine criminal activity aside, it's not worth getting so upset about.)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
  
  Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:48pm
  
  Re:
  Complete lies.
  
  Maybe people just get mad when some stupid idiot is just spitting lies that could hurt a lot of people. As is the case with bs american propaganda, I mean CNN, Fox and company.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Bruce C., 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:24pm

Old technique, new technology
Back in the cold-war days the USSR used to do the same thing supporting or encouraging anti-war groups and other dissidents in the US. In many cases, the groups never became aware of the Russian connection.

I'm starting to feel like we live in the Fallout universe after all: a Russian in every facebook group?
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- HegemonicDistortion (profile), 19 Oct 2017 @ 3:26pm
  
  Re: Old technique, new technology
  Or so was always inferred to discredit anti-war activists, which brings us back to present problem: ridiculous claims of practically magical Russian propaganda effectiveness to try to de-legitimate criticisms of our corporatist establishment.
  
  Russians didn't even budge Americans' deep divisions. The rifts have been growing especially the 90s, and they've especially become sharp due to the rocketing inequality that both major parties have facilitated.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 6:10am
    
    Re: Re: Old technique, new technology
    "that both major parties have facilitated."
    
    I wont argue with the word facilitate but lets not pretend that both parties share equal blame
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:04pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Old technique, new technology
      They do. After all inequality and wars keep increasing.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:07pm
    
    Re: Re: Old technique, new technology
    And besides all that. I thought we all had freedom of speech and to push the agendas we want.
    
    If americans do it is freedom of speech. If russians do it is "propaganda".
    
    Remember all those movies where USA wins the vietnam war? lol, nothing farther from the truth. Real propaganda bullshit.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
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  Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:49pm
  
  Re: Old technique, new technology
  There are more americans and america has more money you fool. So for every russian troll there are a thousand american trolls and highly paid.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:24pm

So when Americans fund protest movements it's "promoting democracy" and when Russians do it it's encouraging infighting?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Vidiot (profile), 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:29pm
  
  Re:
  Ummm... yes.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:09pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Oh I see, an american exceptionalist who thinks he/she is above the rest.
    
    Live your bubble. In any case you are nothing more than just one more.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:31pm
  
  Re:
  Yes
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:10pm
    
    Re: Re:
    And that is why America is the greatest place on Earth! Where cops kill innocent people all the time. When lots of people die by gun every year!
    
    You little white punk.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 5:16pm
  
  Re:
  You didn’t think your clever little statement all the way through, did you comrade?
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:08pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Shooting yourself in the foot, pal.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 12:27am
  
  Re:
  In fairness, I think some of Russia's efforts to foment discord in the US is actually beneficial for the US.
  
  For example, RT conducts and publishes interviews with prominent US dissidents that otherwise would not be available. The show "The World Tomorrow" with Assange was better than 99.9999% of the junk being produced in the US.
  
  Not defending the troll armies or the grotesque abuses of power of the Russian regime. Just saying..
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:11pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Well, lets talk about all the trolling and propaganda done by the USA mainstream media ALL THE TIME.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:12pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Abuses of power? What?
    
    Who is invading all those countries? Please man, your comment was going well, until you too fell for the hypocrisy.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
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  Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:04pm
  
  Re:
  Exactly. That is american hypocrisy. Double standard. Exceptionalism. "Do as I say not as I do".
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
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wes, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:30pm

a very old game
yawn

...so the Russian Government engages in foreign "propaganda and disinformation efforts" that may NOT be "amateurish, unimportant {or} ineffective" ... just like it has done for almost a century. The Horror !

And even more horror -- the Russians are likely using the 'internet' for this stuff now (!)... how can the human race possibly survive ?

Of course, the angelic US Government never ever engages in such evil and has never interfered with foreign internal politics nor overthrown any disliked foreign governments.
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- Thad, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:51pm
  
  Re: a very old game
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
  
  "Yawn" indeed.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 7:40pm
    
    Re: Re: a very old game
    I find this being First Word quite interesting, as well. Birthday present to yourself, or from a friend?
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - That One Guy (profile), 19 Oct 2017 @ 8:00pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: a very old game
      That was the best you could come up with?
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        
        Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:55pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: a very old game
        And that was the best YOU could come up with?
        
        Trying to red-bait?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Kal Zekdor (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:03pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: a very old game
        You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        
        Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:16pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: a very old game
        I posted a link on it, read long time ago. I know what it means.
        
        You don't have to specifically say someone is communist to try and red-bait or discredit him. Just as you are doing now, nothing about the ideas of this article, just trying to discredit me.
        
        Now do you agree america spits even more propaganda than russia will ever be able to? Yes or no.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Kal Zekdor (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 4:24pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: a very old game
        
        I posted a link on it, read long time ago. I know what it means.
        
        You might want to read it again, then.
        
        You don't have to specifically say someone is communist to try and red-bait or discredit him.
        
        Red-baiting is a specific form of an ad hominem attack, where you insinuate that someone is a member of an "enemy" group, in order to discredit them. It's attacking the person, not the argument. Yet, the post you accuse of red-baiting is specifically criticizing the argument. Therefore you either do not actually understand what red-baiting is, or you're purposefully engaging in bad-faith debate in order to disrupt any meaningful conversation. That can't possibly be the case, though, right?
        
        Just as you are doing now, nothing about the ideas of this article, just trying to discredit me.
        
        No, you're doing that all by yourself.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Thad, 20 Oct 2017 @ 5:56pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: a very old game
        Please don't feel the need to respond to him on my behalf. I've got him blocked so I don't have to see his nonsense. If I felt any need to refute whatever inane bullshit he has to say about me (or anyone or anything else), I wouldn't have blocked him.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 9:24pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: a very old game
      Bit sad no one got anything for your birthday there Ivan?
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:56pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: a very old game
        And you John, what did you get?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Thad, 20 Oct 2017 @ 9:52am
    
    Re: Re: a very old game
    You know, I appreciate being given First Word, but the post doesn't make much sense in isolation.
    
    Except that I guess you can pretty much automatically assume at this point that any post with "Russia" in the headline is going to have somebody in the comments engaging in Whataboutism.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - That One Guy (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:10pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: a very old game
      On it's own, no. As soon as someone starts reading the comments...
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:51pm
    
    Re: Re: a very old game
    Red-baiting.
    
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-baiting
    
    Yawn yawn indeed.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Kal Zekdor (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:15pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: a very old game
      I do find it amusing that your defense of whataboutism is, itself, whataboutism.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:53pm
    
    Re: Re: a very old game
    Your stupid whataboutism link comes from the 1990's.
    
    Red-baiting on the other hand, comes from the 1920's.
    
    Yawn yawn indeed.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:33pm

American response?
The American response will probably be low to nil while the trolls continue to praise Trump in all his stupidity.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
  
  Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:54pm
  
  Re: American response?
  While engaging in 7 or 8 wars. You forgot to mention that. Because everybody is an enemy of America.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 2:36pm

Let's keep in mind...
...that much of this was facilitated by the inexperienced, incompetent, ignorant newbies running Facebook, Twitter, and other sites. They were warned -- repeatedly and in no uncertain terms -- by those of us with vastly longer experience that they'd built readily-exploitable platforms. In their naivete and arrogance, they refused to listen. The outcome was predictable.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 3:03pm
  
  Re: Let's keep in mind...
  Please tell us exactly how they should have built it to prevent this.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Aaron Walkhouse (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:45pm
    
    Had they listened...
    …They would have had several years to figure it out on their own. ‌ ‌ ;]
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  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:02pm
    
    Re: Re: Let's keep in mind...
    They should not have done anything! Facebook and the others suck! Just more control over people disguised as a "Service".
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 3:53pm
  
  Re: Let's keep in mind...
  they had their reason$ to be naive.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:33pm
    
    Re: Re: Let's keep in mind...
    Yeah, everyone got their reasons for everything.
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  Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:57pm
  
  Re: Let's keep in mind...
  Oh I see, so only americans are allowed to export their propaganda. Gotcha! Bye!
  
  Stop exporting your bs hollywood movies.
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    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:58pm
    
    Re: Re: Let's keep in mind...
    And your war mongering lies I mean news.
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orbitalinsertion (profile), 19 Oct 2017 @ 3:12pm

If the protests are otherwise not influenced, and not based on other misinformation from the same source in the first place - hey, go ahead and spend your money here. But it may behoove protest organizers to look closer at who is contributing to them or funding them directly. Generally doesn't look good later when it turns up.

All the other stuff, lol, we don't need help with that. It's as stupid, wasteful, and unethical as the US or any other actor doing similar. And when you are competing with the States government at who can be the worst in this area, we know you are all part of the same bullshit in power structure. Congratulations on winning the competition so far this decade.
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- Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 7:45pm
  
  Re:
  I guess they shouldn't be surprised when a public platform can be repurposed and used by someone more skilled in propaganda.
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    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:00pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Yours truly CNN.
    
    Is that it?
    
    Lets remember there is no bigger propaganda machine than all those american news channels through TV.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2017 @ 5:56pm

out_of_the_blue just hates it when due process is enforced.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 4:34am

and now Putin is telling the US to stop disrespecting President Donald Trump.

Hahahaha - fools errand
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- Toom1275 (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 7:34am
  
  Re:
  It's not disrespect if the subject has done nothing to earn any respect.
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    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:35pm
    
    Re: Re:
    You don't "earn" respect you fool. Respect is a right. You have the right to be respected in your ideas and physicality by anyone.
    
    If it was what you said only the smartest, strongest or such would "Earn" everybody's respect. Respect is not earned, it is a right.
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    - That One Guy (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 4:02pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      No, respect is not a right. If someone puts forth a stupid idea/ideology and/or acts like a buffoon neither I nor anyone else are under any obligation to respect them or what they have presented. You can respect their right to believe something without in any sense respecting them for believing it, or respecting what they believe.
      
      If someone wants to be respected, then it is up to them to earn it though their words and/or actions, and I take it as a given that anyone who demands respect does not deserve it.
      
      (As an aside, it might help your argument that respect is a right if you weren't constantly showing none of it to anyone who you disagree with. It's rather like watching someone preaching pacifism while punching someone in the face, it kinda undermines their/your argument.)
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      - Thad, 20 Oct 2017 @ 6:00pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I think some base amount of respect should probably be offered by default. Or, if not respect, at least politeness.
        
        I try to be polite and respectful to people until they give me a reason not to be.
        
        I can't see the person you're responding to, but I'm going to go ahead and assume it's one of our regular trolls. Who've given me lots and lots of reasons not to respect them, treat them with politeness, or look at their posts at all.
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        Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:09am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Lets put it in simple terms, because "politeness" is as vague and ambiguous (suitable for oligarchs in power to crush anyone they want) as
        
        3 things a person can do:
        
        a) think - of course you can think whatever you want (though the Thought Police might think different).
        
        b) talk/write - you are free to express any opinion by your voice or text, but then nuances come when "promoting" CP, hate speech, terrorism, etc. Now being "polite" is just another layer on top which further complicates things.
        
        c) act - you can do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt the physicality and property of others.
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        Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:09am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Please ignore both "as".
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      - Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:04am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        OK lets talk physicality. Do you have the right for everyone to respect your physicality? Yes or No.
        
        "then it is up to them to earn it though their words"
        Not true, it is the exact opposite, you have respect from all by default, you lose it if you do stupid things. In many cultures, individuals are considered to be worthy of respect until they prove otherwise.
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect
        
        The only respect for ideas and opinions is to let them flow ie not censor them. You can say as much as you can, so do I.
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      - Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 11:51am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Take the example of a person named Tom that for whatever reason is brain-dead. Tom won't have any means to "earn" your respect. Yet you have to respect him because it is his right. So it's yours too. He don't need to do anything for your to be be obliged to respect him. Just by the simple fact of being a person Tom is entitled to all your respect. Same goes for everyone else to you.
        
        Take the example of a very weak kid, John. John was born really weak, he was always small, he was always shaky, his mom's pregnancy only lasted 7 months. He is very thin, very small, etc. Of course he won't be able to "earn" your respect in anything sports related or any strenuous physical activity. Yet, you are obliged to respect him and of course if you can lift more logs for the fire than he does then so be it, do it. Don't expect him to bring as many logs as you! He is working just as "hard" as you, but of course can't bring as much logs as you. (You are bigger and stronger).
        
        Same is the case for ALL people, as we are all different.
        
        If what you said was true about "earning" then only the strongest would get respect from the rest. And only the smartest too, therefore automatically disrespecting you and your comments because they are not as "smart".
        
        See, "earning" respect just creates a pyramid society. Where the strongest, smartest, OR THE RUTHLESS, have respect from the rest. The rest are just left to fight among themselves to climb that "respect ladder".
        
        And see, the problem is not that you are smarter than others, you simply have your own views. you could be the best smartest hacker on earth. Yet this does not make you better or even useful to a person that lives from the land for example. This person's view of the world may be more based on how to grow stuff, how to treat land and less about how to hack into government's servers.
        
        Who is more valuable? All of them.
        
        Don't "earn" respect. You have the right to it, by birth.
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        Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 11:55am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Now back to topic.
        
        USA demands RESPECT from Russia: "Outrageous! Russians spy on us and hack our elections and bombard us with propaganda!!!"
        
        Well, USA has been doing that to all of the world for a long time. That is called hypocrisy. And even in your own terms America has lost respect (even though it tried to "earn"it by force).
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    - The Wanderer (profile), 25 Oct 2017 @ 5:33am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      The way I usually put it is:
      
      "Everyone deserves courtesy by default, until such time as they show by their actions that they do not deserve it.
      
      "No one deserves respect by default, until such time as they show by their actions that they do deserve it."
      
      Neither respect nor courtesy is a right.
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- That One Guy (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:03pm
  
  Re:
  Wait, seriously? Please tell me you have a link for that, I could use a hearty laugh.
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    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:37pm
    
    Re: Re:
    If you want to laugh just listen to the bs of your american propaganda I mean news. Or watch your president Trump.
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Johny Mnemonic, 20 Oct 2017 @ 7:22am

Isn't it funny, how Russians literally fuck you with pennies over hundred dollar bills?
Like how they can, with meagre quarter million dollars, literally shake up your 1.8 BILLION dollars elections? My calculator says every dollar they spend is 7000x more effective than every dollar you U.S. folks fork out for your elections? Either way, you are incredibly wasteful with your election funds or you are simply 7000x more stupid than Russians.
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- Thad, 20 Oct 2017 @ 9:54am
  
  Re: Isn't it funny, how Russians literally fuck you with pennies over hundred dollar bills?
  Not to kink-shame, dude, but if somebody is literally fucking you with pennies, that's not normal.
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    Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:38pm
    
    Re: Re: Isn't it funny, how Russians literally fuck you with pennies over hundred dollar bills?
    Like if there is anything normal about the US.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 8:26am

And how much of that was done through conventional ad buys?
Even if the report is true, the bulk of the division oriented propaganda I've seen has been coming through mass media channels that have been around since before the Internet.

The left claimed it was the right, the right claims it is the left, both claim it is the Russians and whatever race you aren't. Next they will blaming American anger on little green men.

No. People are pissed because they don't have affordable health care, their houses and retirement savings were stolen, inflation is higher than reported by the fed, and the only thing that Congress does about it is try to get Americans to fight with one another.

When people are demanding you take sides, the side to fight against is the people making the demands. And that isn't the Russians. TD is sock puppetting a political wedge that has been used since the McCarthy hearings.

Even if what TD is reporting is true, it is still not consequential because people should be angry.

So I call bullshit. It doesn't matter what the Russians did, even if they actually did it. The only place to look is capitol hill. Because even if the antagonism is the result of propaganda, the sources of the anger are real, and have been for decades.

People are angry. Good. What are you going to do with it? Incite a war, or change the law? Because those are the options. Stop being part of the fucking problem.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:14am
  
  Re: And how much of that was done through conventional ad buys?
  You nailed it perfectly. When is the average american idiot going to understand that people from other nations or races are not their problem? Their problem is their own elite that keeps amassing more and more money and wealth, at the expense of everybody else and the public infrastructure/services.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 10:47am

"People are angry. Good. What are you going to do with it? Incite a war, or change the law? Because those are the options. Stop being part of the fucking problem."

We learned this lesson back in the 80's when psychologists thought you could get your anger out by punching a pillow or cutting up a picture of something/someone you didn't like.

They found out reinforcing anger only leads to more anger. You say it is good people are angry but that is the problem. Anger creates more anger and solutions brought through anger are rarely thought out which leads to more anger later on.

No, it is not a good thing to be angry or insight anger. We are already a country of violence so the solution is not more anger.

Taking a look at our own problems and solving them without anger is the only way forward.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:18am
  
  Re:
  What solutions? There have been any solutions. Inequality keeps increasing and war keeps going on. What solutions?
  
  He is not saying is the right thing to be angry, he is saying why people is in fact angry and they should be. The anger is already there, no need to prove it to you, then what we gonna do with it?
  
  If you don't like people being angry. Or you don't think is good idea people deciding while angry then go say that to your politicians that KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE ALL THE TIME. What is more angry than that?
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  Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:21am
  
  Re:
  Yes, it is a good thing people is angry. It shows people are fed and not taking it anymore.
  
  In people were happy all the time and passive and oh so good then it would be a terrible sign that they have been brainwashed fully.
  
  Lets not remember there is CONSTANT WAR AND HUNGER IN THE WORLD, mainly created and maintained by USA wars, but sure, you choose to be happy and are fine with the situation huh?
  
  If you are one of those idiots that happily goes shopping and feels good getting the new iPhone, while millions are dying and being displaced by your country's wars, then you are an idiot and part of the problem.
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MikeC (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 1:31pm

We did it to ourselves
We have finally enabled anyone anywhere to access the very basis for our society - at will w/no repercussions. For all the good the internet has done this world, it's has provided a conduit to the evil as well as the good. Sounds almost biblical doesn't it? But what used to be limited to the few hundred square miles around a person can be pushed out to entire world with a few keystrokes and we have proved over and over we are worthy of this power. Like giving a child a loaded gun and not expecting a disaster ... I don't see how we fix this but sure I don't want to hand the warden the keys to the internet, but I don't see how we can fix this in any way.
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- Thad, 20 Oct 2017 @ 3:45pm
  
  Re: We did it to ourselves
  What the hell are you talking about?
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  Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:27am
  
  Re: We did it to ourselves
  You are as moron as it comes.
  
  If you did not want to "enable" access to "your" "society" then why you keep exporting your movies, your culture, your way of life, your "democracy", your values?
  
  You did not enable shit. People from all over the world have been exchanging ideas and values all the time. There are things called BORDERS you idiot, where people regularly cross for any kind of reasons. My mother may be Canadian and my father American. My mother Chinese and my father Japanese, and so forth you idiot.
  
  Society? You mean a place where police kill innocent people all the time? Where kids kill other kids just for fun? Where millions have died because of violence/gun related? The place that exports war? That is society to you? You are dumb kid.
  
  Further, espionage has been a thing since the beginning of civilizations! Sadly of course. You ignorant. Russians did not invent it, nor Americans. And it is because of all these artificial borders, created nationalisms, greed, etc.
  
  Lastly, you are a hypocrite. There is no bigger propaganda machine than USA's mainstream media, which is exported and pushed worldwide you fool. If Russia has a thousand trolls then USA has a million trolls and highly paid.
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  Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:34am
  
  Re: We did it to ourselves
  Sounds biblical...looool. Sayu that to the 1.3 billion Chinese, 1.2 billion Indian, 1+ billion Arabs and so forth from other creeds that are NOT christian you dumbass.
  
  Surprise surprise! You start bombing many countries now you have people form all those countries migrating to yours! Surprise surprise!
  
  If you don't like immigrants, the current situation of "terrorism", etc go blame it to your own government and companies which keep pushing the war agenda for their own profit (not yours, far from it).
  
  "Now is pushed all over the world." Are you a stupid one. There was a thing called TV before the internet, and curiously, dominated by your american bs propaganda.
  
  Now it seems, that when the playing field is leveled by the internet (other countries can push their own agendas too worldwide) now you don't like it.
  
  Make no mistake about it fool. There is no other country that has been invading and interfering in other countries' business like the USA does and has done for too long. Now the things are reversing and you don't like it, of course.
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MikeC (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 1:35pm

Russian WhistleBlower?? More Fake News
So we are to believe the Russians are so effective in they "internet trolling operation" they could not do something like having their own Fake WhistleBlower to tout how effective they are in influencing things. Why do they need to work at influencing us when we are willing to do if for them? Sure sounds like something a smart operative would think of.
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- Kal Zekdor (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:33pm
  
  Re: Russian WhistleBlower?? More Fake News
  So... Either Russia has a sophisticated internet propaganda arm that has been leaked by several whistleblowers, or Russia has a sophisticated internet propaganda arm that's using fake whistleblowers to promote their agenda?
  
  I'm sorry, did you have an actual argument?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:28pm

@TECHDIRT:
Cut the crap, there is no bigger propaganda machine than the USA, not only through its imagery wing aka Hollywood, but through all its news platforms.
Fuck off.
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- Kal Zekdor (profile), 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:36pm
  
  Re:
  Huh. Guess that First Word was relevant after all.
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    Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:37am
    
    Re: Re:
    Yes lies and misinformation are relevant too. we have to be aware of those so we can debunk them.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2017 @ 2:30pm

Are you citing the New York Times?
The biggest propaganda machine, war mongering asswholes?
You gotta be kidding ridiculous.
What about all the lies american mainstream media spits to the world ALL THE TIME???
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Padpaw (profile), 21 Oct 2017 @ 4:16am

Should we be thankful they have exposed so much criminal acts and corruption among the US government then? Or criticize them for making America look weak.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:44am
  
  Re:
  You should be thankful (I am not Russian). Because you don't want to live in a world where there is just ONE power, aka USA.
  
  A unipolar world is a wrong world, a world where huge and horrible decisions like war are done unilaterally. RINGS ANY BELLS? Afghanistan? Iraq? etc?
  
  Even with all those resources stolen from all those wars, YOU DON"T SEE MUCH PROFIT GOING TO YOU, most of it goes to your elite, inequality keeps increasing and you are still left with with an uncertain future where most can aspire to is to work hard their entire lives for crumbles in comparison.
  
  Monopoly is bad, any kind. Especially when it comes to power and military/war.
  
  You want a multipolar world, where no single force can take decisions on their own. Where it is very hard to go to war (not the opposite as it is today).
  
  You want a world with many superpowers, where they take sides and actually vote on things.
  
  Remember, when the elites understand each other, you are just left with a simulation (and an ultimate further abuse of your rights and freedoms).
  
  When elites fight, we can get a glimpse at what is really going on.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:48am
  
  Re:
  What good has done to the USA being the most powerful country?
  
  - Their people is in constant "fear" of a terrorist attack.
  - People kill innocent people all the time.
  - Hell, even they kill themselves, a lot, all the time.
  - Cancer, diabetes, heart diseases, are through the roof.
  - At best most are destined to a life of debt, tons of work and buying cheap plastics from China anyway (like most of the world, just change the brand and the price tag ;)
  - It is a fact that is NOT the best country to live in the world anyway, not by any index like Gini, HDI, etc.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2017 @ 10:55am
    
    Re: Re:
    - Police kill their innocent population all the time too.
    - And most of all, all that power to invade other countries and take their resources and impose their business practices and values has mainly served their ELITE anyway, most people just receive crumbles. That is why inequality is greater in American than ever. Nobody is getting the profits and benefits from all those invasions but just a few.
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    - Anonymous Coward, 23 Oct 2017 @ 10:51pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Goddamn, are you actually trying to be the anti-Hamilton?
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John Smith, 22 Oct 2017 @ 9:00am

Thank GOD...
Thank GOD our LAWYERS in the USA would NEVER do this to line their pockets.
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