Minnesota Dept. Of Public Safety Now Handing Out License/Insurance Carriers In Hopes Of Keeping Cops From Killing More Drivers
from the gov't-acts-to-protect-citizens-from-their-gov't dept
Well, here's something unexpected, delivered in a somewhat tone-deaf fashion. The Minnesota Department of Public Safety has partnered with a mother whose son was killed by a Minnesota police officer to hopefully reduce the number of times people are killed by police officers for following instructions during traffic stops. (h/t @Ktech)
“License and registration, please." It's what we expect to hear when law enforcement stops us for a moving violation.
But today, many motorists ask themselves when the appropriate time is to reach into their glove box, purse or back pocket for the information.
The Minnesota State Patrol, along with several law enforcement agencies across the state, want to make it easier for drivers to store the information and for law enforcement to see when motorists are reaching for documents.
It's called a “Not-Reaching Pouch." Its intent is to store a person's driver's license, and insurance card in a pouch that's kept in plain sight in the vehicle on an air vent or other visible location.
The Department of Public Safety (DPS) recently purchased some Not-Reaching Pouches, which were created by Valerie Castile in partnership with Jacquelyn Carter, to help reduce deadly force encounters between law enforcement and citizens during traffic stops.
This isn't a new product or one the DPS came up with. Another person whose son was killed by police in Virginia came up with the idea and it was championed by Philando Castile's mother after her own son was shot and killed during a traffic stop. If you don't want to get the pouch from a cop, anyone can purchase one directly from the creator's website.
But the DPS's rollout leaves a lot to be desired. As does the product itself when it's being handed out by government employees, as it implies the solution to easily scared officers isn't better training and less reliance on deadly force, but rather asking citizens to defuse the walking bombs that have pulled them over.
The press release is also written in an exonerative tone, distancing these public servants from the public servants who have killed residents of the state. The problem isn't "people" having trouble figuring out when it's "appropriate" to reach for their IDs and insurance information. They do it when they are asked or instructed to. The problem is that they sometimes get shot while attempting to comply with officers' instructions.
But the most problematic aspect of this partnership between people whose loved ones have been killed by cops and the agency that oversees the Minnesota State Police is the statement that accompanies this tricky rollout:
“We are continually looking for ways to reduce deadly force encounters as these instances can be catastrophic for police officers, and community members ," said DPS Assistant Commissioner Booker Hodges. “By working together with Ms. Castile, who has tirelessly advocated for these since her son was killed in a deadly force encounter with law enforcement, we are hoping these pouches help in some way reduce these instances, even if it's just one."
Appreciate the sentiment, Booker, but these "encounters" always seem to go one way: officer "fears," officer fires. These are routine traffic stops that ended with the killing of someone by police officers -- killings that were done in response to movements made by drivers and passengers attempting to comply with officers' requests and orders. This statement attempts to spread the blame around, as though deadly force is inherent to the "encounter," rather than deployed by officers who seem to believe anytime someone moves while sitting in a vehicle, it's to retrieve a weapon.
It's a well-meaning effort but it's undercut by the agency that's performing it -- one that has already exonerated officers by referring to the killing of drivers by cops as "deadly force encounters," robbing the dead of their agency and understating the severity of officers' actions and overreactions.
Despite those drawbacks, it's a huge step forward for any government agency to hand something like this out. The DPS's decision to buy these and hand them out is an implicit admission it knows there's something wrong with policing in the state, if not the nation. If it is willing to give drivers something that might prevent "even just one" senseless killing, it is making it clear police officers cannot be trusted to remain calm (and nonviolent) during traffic stops without the assistance of those they're interacting with.
Sure, in a perfect world, the government would already be on top of this, firing bad cops, engaging in more prosecutions of violent cops, refusing to indemnify officers being sued over rights violations, and stocking agencies with employees who understand and respect the fact their real employers are the people they serve. But if this was a perfect world, no one would have come up with this idea. So, you do the best with what you have and keep pushing to make it better.
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Filed Under: dps, minnesota, minnesota dept. of public safety, minnesota state patrol, not reaching bag, philando castile, police, police s hooting
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Man, the government really will do anything to avoid training cops not to be “on active alert” against “the enemy” out in the “war zone”.
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How long before someone using one of those is shot, because the cop did not see it? Also, how long before someone using one of those has their documents stolen by someone smashing the side window while they wait at traffic lights?
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Solving the wrong problem
If they were really trying to prevent cops murdering people you know what would really help that? Admitting that there's a problem and it's not on the public's side of the equation, overhauling hiring and training of cops so they aren't such trigger-happy goons, and handing out actual punishments when cops ignore training to gun someone down.
This might be better than nothing in a way but at the same time it's like slapping a band-aid on a stab would and pretending that that'll do the trick, providing the appearance of Doing Something without actually addressing the underlying problem or even admitting that it exists in any meaningful way.
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Can't we just not have trigger happy cops?
Or mandatory Xanax for them?
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What's the purpose of asking for vehicle registration? Cops can look that up via license plate, and it usually sits in the glove box no matter who's driving.
Personally, the only time I've ever needed to pull out my registration was after being rear-ended at a stoplight, to trade insurance info with the person who crumpled my bumper. Officers have always just asked me for my license.
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Re:
And if you are a person of colour, reaching for your wallet to show tour license may get you shot, while placing it in a transparent bag hanging from a vent may avoid that outcome; assuming that the cop has not already decided to execute someone and asks for the license to create the justification that they reached for a pocket and they feared for their life.
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Re:
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Re:
Lived in Minnesota my whole life. Never once been asked for registration. It stays at home.
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Re:
In Michigan, you are required to have your registration in the vehicle when it's in operation on a public road. One example is that, in winter, it's very easy for the plate to be partially (or fully) covered in snow and therefore to have either its characters or its annual tag covered and unreadable. In those cases, proof of registration is required to know if the vehicle actually has up-to-date registration. Anecdotally, every time I've been in a vehicle that was pulled over here in Michigan (this includes one time I was pulled over), the driver has been asked for license, registration, and proof of insurance.
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Re:
Simple answer (I'm guessing here, not a leo or lawyer or in 'traffic' at all) - but probably 'because they can'. I'm sure someone would also include a number of other possibilities: Like: Not knowing where the registration is kept may indicate a stolen or unauthorized driver. Fumbling around or confusion may indicate an intoxicated driver. Not having one may indicate some sort of registration fraud.
Also it's not 'always' or even 'usually' kept in one particular spot. speaking from experience I've kept mine in the past in 3 separate locations...among them to include: glove box, center console, front cubby, visor, door pouch, purse, wallet, in a 'folder' thrown in the back, stuck to the window, in an envelope on the dash - or MISSING. Just because you keep it in 'the box' doesn't mean others or everyone does. I have a little pouch that hangs from my front grab bar that I keep my RV registration in (when towing)...and my vehicle reg in the visor...in one of these damn slots...give me a second officer I'm sure I put it in here...no, really it's one of them (yes, it has like 14 slots...a CD holder - and I'm often fumbling to remember which slot I 'hid' it in so someone breaking in couldn't find my address). Which to any LEO or DMV type...STOP putting our ADDRESS ON our registration PLEASE!
Yes, these days...on a 'normal' traffic stop where they've had time to 'run you' before making contact they usually 'know' much about you - but part of the confirming the documents is making sure everything is on the up and up. But NOT ALL stops are 'normal' either, are they? Sometimes computers are slow, or not working properly...or perhaps they cannot get connectivity.
I don't like how the government works with only 'one method' it's infantile and stupid. Like a license should be able to be kept digitally...or multiple copies...or a basic ID style without as much 'pertinent' information for less 'formal' ID situations - where I don't NEED walmart knowing my address to check my age for a purchase (just as an example). YOU should be able to have an RFID token that you pull out and they can 'zap'...or even have the car automatically and electronically 'know' who is driving. Yes I'm sure there are many security worries - for others to figure out - I'm just an ideas guy!
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Pouches might not be the problem here
And there is me in England
Carry driving licence with me? Nope
Carry car registration with me? Nope
Carry insurance with me? Nope
Get shot for getting out of my car? Nope.
Get shot for not instantly obeying commands? Nope
Get shot for 'reaching'? Nope.
Get shot for pulling my trousers up? Nope
And your police think that the solution to all the people getting shot at traffic stops is for you to put your documents in a pouch? <laughs hysterically in English>. I have an inkling you are solving the wrong problem here.
I have a Top Tip for you American. Why don't you also carry around a body bag in your car and save the authorities the trouble of having to provide their own.
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Re: Pouches might not be the problem here
Are you still pissed about getting your ass kicks in the 1700s?
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Re: Re: Pouches might not be the problem here
I think they’re more of the mind that they’re happy to not be associated with us. Like, “This is what you wanted independence for? Seriously?”
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Re: Re: Re: Pouches might not be the problem here
Well, considering that the vast majority of settlers to the colonies were people that:
Were unable to make a living in Europe.
Slaves brought by force from Africa.
Indentured servants who couldn't afford the boat ticket and are a subset of 1.
It's no surprise that the low quality imports turned out this way. Didn't have much to start with, and the unwillingness to associate was firmly established long before the country was.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Pouches might not be the problem here
FTR, I’m not taking a side on the whole America vs. Europe thing. I just thought the other guy’s comment was dumb.
I will just add that it also included religious fanatics—but not necessarily criminals—who were mad they couldn’t persecute others or something (Puritans) and some who feared religious prosecution—like the Quakers—in certain parts of Europe. Not saying anything about the broader point you’re making; just noting that you missed at least one significant category there.
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Now your id stays in the car
So you get one of these bags and now your identification documents all stay in your car where any passing crook can just reach in the window and walk off with them.
And if he wants to steal the car the thief can provide the "license and registration" too.
What could possibly go wrong here?
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Re: Now your id stays in the car
I think the idea here is that license and registration stay in a portable bag that you carry with you.
The problem with THAT is that where I live, a copy of your registration is required to stay in the car at all times, and it's rather bulky. Not something you want to have to carry around when you leave the car.
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I have an even better solution: stop pulling people over for minor traffic violations.
Handing out traffic tickets for speeding is useless. Does it deter speeding? No.
Then there's the illegal lane change, not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, and other stupid things that's at the discretion of the cop to enforce. Guess who gets the stick most of the time?
You want traffic safety, then start charging people for getting into collisions. Why are hardly any pedestrian fatalities ever prosecuted?
Traffic enforcement is dumb and a waste of resources. Design better roads that lead to less collisions and pedestrians being struck. If there are high incidents of speeding at particular roads, then use cameras for tickets.
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Re:
Often, the people who collide aren't the ones to blame for the accident... it's the guy who rolled through the intersection, which caused the person with the right of way to swerve to avoid, colliding with the person turning left.
Bad driving has a domino effect on the road. Get the bad drivers to stop being lazy, and everyone else benefits too.
Of course, this assumes that the police are ticketing the right people, which appears to be rather hit or miss.
That said, where I am, speeding and intersections are enforced by photo radar. Police pull over people of interest, and don't waste their time on minor traffic violations. But where I am, failure to display your insurance will get you taken off the road in very short order. Legal requirement is back AND front plate, specific to the VIN, or a temporary paper in the back window, clearly visible.
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Y'all are thinking to small....
Some department is going to invent a narrative about how some bad guys have taken this idea and turned into a weapon so that cops can still get cover for shooting innocent people.
Remember the single shot pager?
Remember the single shot cellphone?
Remember the disguised tasers?
There is nothing that can't be turned into a basis for cops being fearful & needing to murder someone.
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Re:
Sure, that pouch is just covering the big hole where the vent was busted out to hide the 9mm to which the pouch is affixed.
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Re: Re:
Well they keep talking about the poisoned/razorblade filled Halloween treats & the exploding tennis balls terrorists are leaving in parks to murder peoples dogs...
They're cops, they just have to say they were scared & the courts say okay dokey.
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I'm just reaching for my "bag", officer
Time to deploy deadly enforcement in the "War on Drugs"
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Perhaps the real problem…
…is that there are more guns than people in the US, and the US hates any and all notions of gun control. American police officers seem to be trained to automatically think that any minority person who makes a maneuver that they have the slightest bit of suspicion about is actually trying to retrieve a firearm and use it against them, so they all-too-quickly unholster their own firearm, shoot, and kill.
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Re: Perhaps the real problem…
Then why is it almost always a black guy getting shot? I know a ton of white guys who legally carry, and none of them have ever been shot by a cop.
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Re: Re: Perhaps the real problem…
Because the US is still endemically racist.
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Re: Re: Perhaps the real problem…
When cops think like restless94110 they will take pre-emptive action, making blacks look more violent than whites because they are involved in more violent incidents, even when they do not take any threatening action. Its called a self fulfilling prophecy.
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or they could, you know...
train their police officers to not shoot people, not to be on such a 'hair trigger' in every encounter with the public. Oh, wait, that would mean that the -police- would be making the effort to stop killing so much... sort of like that old "protect and -serve-" thing that doesn't happen so much. Never mind.
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My plan
I have not been pulled over by a cop in a very long time, but in the event that should happen, I will try to get my registration and proof of insurance out of the glove compartment and put it in my lap or on the seat beside me in clear view before the cop even has a chance to get out of the cop car. Same for wallet w/ license.
To the poster who pointed out that they can look these things up on their computer: Of course they can. But that would deprive them of the pretext to shoot you, or maybe just to ticket you for not having useless pieces of paper in your possession.
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Re: My plan
depending on their mood, that furtive activity is proof of your violent and unlawfulness. You Must be hiding your pile of crack pipes and child pornos and/or getting out a gun to shoot the cop as soon as they step up.
Safest to shoot first and ask questions after the press release that called you a violent addict pervert attempted cop-murderer who happened to be involved in a use of force incident.
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How does this help police officers?
Ok, how does it save a police officer? How many citizens are there who reach for their papers in a glove compartment, accidentally find a gun there and spontaneously fire it at the officer? Because that is the situation where a police officer is getting hurt.
What else is there? There is that openly visible pouch for the papers but the driver instead reaches for the glove compartment. This can save an officer's life because the officer now gets to fire at the driver without waiting for the driver to possibly come up with something other than the papers. Do we really want that kind of "Feel free to shoot me!" indicator in a car? What if the driver isn't the same person who placed that pouch there? What if they forgot to put their papers there at the start of the drive?
Then of course we have peer pressure: "Your Honor, if the driver were not inclined to shoot police officers on a whim, they'd have used a license pouch for storing their papers".
Frankly, it's sad that they got victims' relatives to help with this kind of blame-shifting prop.
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"We", being the real employers of our police, is a false construct. Enough with this propaganda. the police knows who their real employers are, and it's time for us to know too. Newsflash... its ain't us, the public, sorry. the real employers are the people our rigged system put in power by their moneyed supporters. The police oppress us not for us but for them, the people in power and the moneyed interests behind them. they,not us, do the actual employing and paying their little thugs in blue using our money that we have to provide... or else we get punished and demonized.
what power we peons have is mostly illusory in this rigged political system. We have little say over how the money we have to pay is used for. If we did have real control over the public purse, by now we would have put the thugs in blue out of business. But, no, our "representatives" decide in our names, not necessarily following our collective will but pretending to. And even as individuals their power to decide budget policy is mostly illusory, red or blue. it's their party leaders who decide;you the elected lawmaker has to play ball with their political whip or else. Its pass the whole financial package or else, never mind if some of the money go to immoral people for immoral purposes. If you don't do what they say, you get kicked out of your party, and you being not blue or red anymore you usually have little chance to get re-elected in their rigged system without their considerable resources if you don't have your own resources by independent means.
In a perfect world, there would be no more binary power monopolies, no winner take it all voting systems. There would be more political diversity and competition... no more just blue and red, but purple, green, pink, whatever that better represents the diversity in us, the public. And just maybe we would be able to see ourselves in our representatives..
In a perfect world, there would be less corruption; and the end of the outrageous influence money plays in our political system. No more police unions leading our politicians by their noses. we the voters would have more REAL power and REAL representatives having more REAL power to make REAL changes. In a perfect world, we, the public, would have actual control over our police instead of our corrupt political elites. Then the police would really be ours not theirs.The situation with our murderous police is a symptom of what is rotten in our government-- our elites. We cant fix abusive and murderous police without fixing those in our government who employ, enable, and pay them, so it's not just the police that we should be looking at!!!
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Only in 'murics
Has it come to the point where we have to worry that simply being alive is too much of a threat to racist white police? At what point will we stop protecting the Nazi police and start imposing the same laws on them that they unwilling and unable to upllhold themselves?
Ban qualified immunity.
Ban police unions.
Ban cops.
The only purpose they serve is their own self-interest.
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Re: Only in 'murics
It's not just "racist white police". We certainly have those, but we also have killer cops who are non-white (in my area, they've been White, Latino, Black, Asian, Male and Female).
Yes, ban qualified immunity. And elected office-holders who don't have the spine to stand up to the cop union.
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Re: Re: Only in 'murics
Yeah, I’m on board for removing qualified immunity and reducing the power and influence of police unions. I don’t care what their race is.
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Another way is to keep it in the center console, where it is easily reached. Most cars have a storage cubby in the center console. This way you don't have to go into the glove compartment.
there is where I keep my registration and insurance at
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Re:
Is the center console also where you keep your gun? :)
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Changes
This should read: Minnesota Dept. of Safety now mandating that all black people take training in how to behave during traffic stops.
No black person I've even known who knows how to behave (while also maintaining their rights) has ever had a problem with a cop.
Stop catering to the victim nonsense.
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Re: Changes
Police should be able to deal with those suffering some form of mental crisis without shooting them in the first 10 seconds of an interaction. Demanding that the people that the police deal with always act in the proper manner is unrealistic.
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Re: Changes
So far there is no dependable rule on what to do when asked to show your papers. Both reaching for your papers and not reaching for your papers can get you killed.
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Re: Changes
Right… So, all those black people who have complied with orders, reach for the glove compartment when asked to retrieve their license and registration when asked, and are then killed because the cop thought that they were reaching for a gun are the problem, not the cops who give orders and then shoot when the person attempts to comply.
Also, why should black people in particular take training in how to behave during traffic stops? As far as behaving goes, I’ve seen just as much bad behavior during traffic stops from white people as I have black people.
Says the guy who whines about cops and/or white people being victims all the time.
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Re: Changes
"No black person I've even known who knows how to behave...'
Ho boy I can hear that dog whistle from 7 states over.
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Re: Changes
behave
Behave? Boy, you people sure advocate for acting like sheep alot. It's almost as if you're advocating some kind of groveling, or something.
Oh well, so much for the land of the free. It's time to call this pathetic country the home of the scared shitless, ushered in by the 'patriots' like you restless.
Grow a set of balls, you bootlicking scumbag.
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Re: Changes
I agree. It's high time we stopped handling cops with kid gloves just because they piss their pants after someone literally followed their exact orders.
But I have a hunch that's not what you're talking about.
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Ideal conception
I think this would all be more easily solved by tattooing the suspect's national ID# barcode around each forearm. Then the insurance and the car registration could be tied to the ID in a national database -- problem solved.
All the cops would have to do is yell, "All suspects outta the car. Hands up!" and the suspect(s) can yell, "Hands up, don't shoot!" A quick scan of the barcode(s) and the police will immediately know whether there's something about the suspect(s) that should make them be in fear of their lives -- and, if so, would justify an Immaculate Self-Defense while they remain safely in the seat of their Armored Suspect Service vehicle.
(The above is Certified Satire.)
Only in today's America would today's police be insensitive to the taking of a long step in the direction of the above.
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Not reaching
Training? Why, does that override stupid AND cowardice?
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How have I survived
How have I survived to be almost a senior citizen without losing my shit as people went about their lives, putting their hands in their pockets, reaching into purses and gloveboxes to get their sunglasses? Are the police such snivelling cowards that they can't deal with the fact that someone will be reaching into the standard location of the thing they just asked for? There is truly a deeper problem here.
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Blame this, in part, on the “you’re a soldier in a war zone” mentality taught to (and by) numerous police departments that makes police officers paranoid about even the slightest movement by an “enemy combatant”.
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DPS should work on better armor
Cops are getting shot at and run over with remarkable frequency, including by idealistic morons who think that keeping them justifiably paranoid is going to reduce their tendency to open fire on innocent motorists.
There is a lot of very impressive materials science work going on, and I can't believe that there isn't more state governments could do to commission bulletproof helmets and devices that automatically report and send bodycam video of shooters at the moment the weapon is fired, for example.
You can say the cops ought to be braver, and sure, they are cops and all that so you'd think they ought to be, but just how much chickenhawk taunting can we do from our comfy couches before they tune us out? If you pulled over what your database claims is a suspected gang member and were having a confrontation with him, would you think he was pulling a piece of paper out of his glove compartment? Let's try a little more preparation and a little less wishful thinking!
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Re: DPS should work on better armor
If you have just asked him to produce his documents, then he will likely reach for the glove compartment, or into his jacket for his wallet. If you think they are that dangerous, get them out of the vehicle, and ask them where you can get their documents. To ask for documents, and then shoot them when the reach for them seems more like creating an excuse for an execution than checking that their paperwork is in order.
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Re: Re: DPS should work on better armor
WRONG! You don't give an officer the permission to enter your vehicle or acquire your documents.
SMART officers would have already asked the driver some polite questions to ascertain whether they felt they may be 'at risk'. And then ask, before reaching would you tell me where your drivers license is? (answer) Would you hand it to me please? If they feel 'at risk' they can politely 'control' the scene without ever even appearing as if they're doing so. If they are alone they should act accordingly...if they have a backup they should know their backup is watching that side of the vehicle (ala it's common for view to be blocked by officers hiding behind the B pillar while drivers rummage around, especially on the passenger side).
SMART vehicle operators should already HAVE their documents in your lap, or on the seat beside you. You can put it all away if it wasn't needed to be acquired. SMART drivers, let the officer visually search (public view doctrine) before distracting them with WHY DID YOU PULL ME.... Best YET is have them on the dash with your hands on the steering wheel and your lights on with your windows down. NO...you don't 'have to' - and you're not a sheep for doing 'stuff' that you'd do anyway...would you like a bullet or a ticket - because cops are idiots doing stupid things to normal people just to catch the 1 in 10,000 that might deserve it.
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Re: Re: Re: DPS should work on better armor
You missed the point, if the police have a reason to think they are dealing with a dangerous person, they should handle the situation as such, otherwise they should expect people to reach for their documents when they are requested. besides which it is not too hard to stand behind the door pillar until you can see what they are reaching for. A cop with a drawn gun, should be able to shoot before a suspect can turn around enough to shoot them.
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Re: DPS should work on better armor
For the longest time, devices that recorded bodycam footage were not a thing precisely because neither state governments nor police forces believed that an evidence trail of cop behavior was considered desirable.
Even today, when there is a considerable number of cases where bodycam footage has exonerated, vindicated, and protected cops from the vexatious "revenge" lawsuits they claimed that law enforcement would encounter, resistance to cam footage of any sort is still prevalent. You'd only need to look at the instances where the bodycams of an entire cop squadron "coincidentally failed" at the same time before a bystander was gunned down.
They already do, and they're exceedingly proud about it. I don't know what you think your comfy couch simping is supposed to accomplish.
"Database claims"? In the short amount of time it takes to look at a license plate and act on a hunch, you think cops are going to call back to base for a database check? These are folks who can't even be fucked to ask for a warrant.
Like having some actual evidence on hand and not wishing that every citizen is inherently out to get you and justify the "fear for your life" when interacting with unarmed people.
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Re: Re: DPS should work on better armor
Reality check for the pure bred liberals. As a vet!
There’s no such thing as bulletproof. Not on a person.
Not today. Period. End of discussion.
I’m tired of people pointing out bulletproof this or that. Bull fucking shite. And I have the scars to prove it. Through the vest, through the chest, out the side, through the arm, through the shoulder, out the other side of my arm.
It isn’t even worth discussing.
It’s a dumb idea all around. You create self-described super cops who don’t give a dam because they think they’re invincible, and they become more aggressive for the same reasoning.
Just an fyi.
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No way I would put my license in a pouch for everyone to see. The reason cops kill motorist is because they are murderers.
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You just can’t do right…
So any attempt to solve the problem of people getting shot by cops is not good enough if there is still law enforcement?
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Though this wasn’t invented by some pare!
Separate ID carry has been used since WWII and comes from the US military. But acknowledging that isn’t good for the anti law slant is it. See, the neck pouch, worn around the neck under the uniform when not in vehicle, was specifically designed to wrap over the shield bar of a vehicle which could be turned towards either window with a single movement of a single arm.
A variation has been used in public transportation far before this mother “invented” it. Cab drivers, bus drivers, etc.
I place one on the visor of each vehicle I operate. Won hand reaching up shows the licence to the officer.
Can’t you ever be happy someone is trying? Or are you just that against the idea of someone enforcing laws as a whole?
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From Aus
So these must be some of those wonderfull “Freedoms” Americans eulogise about. Really missing the Fredom to be shot here in Aus.
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Re: From Aus
No, they just curb stomp you in Australia.
Because knocking the shite out of someone stops Covid right?
https://mobile.twitter.com/CryptoFallen/status/1305068861490774016
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Re: They should have complied
Your GQP talking points came in late this week eh bro?
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Re: Re: They should have complied
Do you deny the video evidence? Looks a bit over the top to me for a covid quarantine violation.
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Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
"I think anti-maskers are dumb, but I will stretch my body over every puddle so their feet-feets don't get hurt by the big nasty meanies" - Lostinlodos
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Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Wrong. Once again a hide in a hole fuckoff is flat out wrong.
I think anti maskers should all get every possible disease out there and die slow painful deaths.
But that’s their decision and given the extensive medical background in my family I have reality guiding my decisions. Don’t want a mask. Fuck of and die. See you. You are of no danger to the masked and vaccinated. So enjoy your suffering. And my tax dollars to medical?
Well worth it knowing your unmasked arse is suffering slowly.
You have a natural right to not be forced into wearing a mask. I firmly believe that. And you have the equal right to die.
And anyone who thinks they have the right to force anyone else to protect anyone else, fuck you too.
Humans are a plague to the planet. And the more stupid fucks that die the better.
So stop with the factually false nonsense about masks and let them die. Every anti-masker that dies is worth celebrating! Every anti-Vader that dies is worth a national holiday. I have zero sympathy for the ignorant fucks.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
You are of no danger to the masked and vaccinated.
And if being a maskhole was an immediately lethal choice that would be a valid argument, but it isn't so it isn't.
Maskholes aren't just dying in their homes because they act responsibly other than the mask bit and self-quarentine, they are going out around other people and helping keep this delightful pandemic going and at that point yes, society absolutely has a right to tell them 'mask on or stay the hell away from everyone else' and enforce that. That is not 'forcing them to protect other people' that's society protecting itself from self-centered assholes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
I’ll make this short and simple.
Anything less than a 95% filtration or greater mask is slightly less than pointless.
If you believe otherwise your ignorant.
That paper mask you buy at the store or are handed at some penny pinching medical facility has 10-35% filtration ability. And C19 is smaller than the pores.
If your disagree with that you are pure and simple, lacking quality honest information, or your a ignorant fool.
You don’t have to agree with me. You have a right to be wrong and stupid and ignorant.
All three have nothing to do with fact.
Use an N/KN/K/LN/EN 95 mask. Or die.
And I don’t give two fucking taco shites if you do.
I hope all the self righteous stupid MSNBCNN paper mask fucks join the maskless ONN fucks and die so the real world can move on.
The longer your turds survive the longer I have to concern myself th that 5% variable.
And the only thing I care about is myself, my family, and my friends.
That’s the facts. Have a good day. Or don’t. I’m going to play Final Doom in my C64 so fuck off and cheers. ttfn!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
I don’t think you understand what “pointless” means.
[citation needed]
Irrelevant. They travel via tiny water droplets in your breath, and those are too large to fit through the pores.
Have you never heard of the phrase, “It’s better than nothing”? We simply don’t have enough such masks available for every single human being every single day.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
I don’t think you understand medical certainty
Um, no. It’s not. Read the damn box.
µ105
That’s the most common disposable mask design on market.
Which covers apx 25% of know viri.
Exactly ! If your faxed your immunity is already between 62% and 91% depending on if you believe fake news or the USAMC.
I’ll believe the U.S. army before any get rich politician.
Trump or little b puppet president biden
They’ve been 100% correct so far on this.
https://www.techdirt.com/user/lostinlodos
If your vaxed the garbage overpriced paper is useful.
If your skip vaxing and just use paper your as good as dead an I won’t sheaf a singlet tear for your self righteous arse.
If you choose not to be both: fuck of and die.
Such a mask is not needed for the vaxed.
As for the anti vac fuck tards there are over 5 billion available on Amazon right now below the garbage paper disposable price.
All under $20 per box. Or under $1 per mask.
Oh, and Medicare, -cade, and most commercial insurance will cover or reimburse the cost. So free.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Schools without mask mandates are more likely to have COVID-19 outbreaks, CDC finds. That is strong evidence that masks do help stop the spread.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
How selfish.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Sorry, not spending time worrying about you. I’m over 40. I’ve exceed my natural non medically supported life expectancy.
I don’t give two fucks, not one, not a single one, about humans.
Humans are earth’s biggest foe, and the more of us that die the better.
I’d prefer that those I like live slightly longer than everyone else. But honesty… … ???
Selfish is saying ‘I don’t need no vax’
Selfish is saying I don’t need no mask.
Selfish is sayin you do it so I don’t have to
For all the progfucks out there pointing fingers the largest combined group of non vaxed are poor, inner city, black. Thanks to I your, not my, Choice for VP who said the vaccine was not reliable if since it was developed under Trump.
Of them, Baptists are the majority.
So once again people who bow down to some fuckoff in a cloud cause the largest problem.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
And the only thing I care about is myself, my family, and my friends.
Well, nice of you for outing your stupidly short-sighted and self-centered stance and providing a perfect example of how governments(local and larger) are being given all the justification they could dream of to stop asking and start telling in order crack down on selfish assholes who only care about themselves and have ensured that everyone else has to protect themselves from people like you.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Except for one thing, doing the opposite of
My choice would cause wide spreading of the virus variants.
Given I’m using a proper filtration mask, have taken the vax, and look forward to the booster…
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Which leaves you a responsible(or at least not stupid) self-centered person, but the same cannot be said of the countless others who share your view that the only people that matter are them and theirs.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complie
Not self-centred. Just of very limited concern for the greater population.
I’m to busy worrying about those I care about.
The vaccine is free. So take it. If you don’t?
I see no reason to concern myself with the stupidity of others.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Physician heal thyself.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
"Wrong. Once again a hide in a hole fuckoff is flat out wrong."
I don't think you are being hard enough on your self. You're also a racist, fascist, fuckwit.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
It’s not racist, it’s fact. After months of Dems saying they would never take a vaccine developed under Trump the very people they claim to be protecting are now not taking the vaccine.
There’s also NPR via Forbes:
Regarding those who claim to be waiting for more information. Or time. Or whatever else “wait and see” covers.
While it’s a bit difficult to separate the statistics out from the blame whitey rhetoric… the surveys, polls, and reported data is there.
And while there is definitely a distrust in the alleged “white system” it didn’t help to have so many powerful dems flat out saying they would never trust or take it. Because it was the Trump administration!
They didn’t say they would wait, didn’t say they they wanted more of this or that… they said never. Be it a change of mind or nonsense for the headlines, they said never. And too many people stuck with that. To many people heard it in the debates and said ‘me neither’!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
[Hallucinates facts not in evidence]
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/some-doctors-saying-cloth-masks-are-not-good-enough/ar-AAM BNRZ
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Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
What is it you people always say?
Oh yes, "they just should have complied and it wouldn't have happened?'
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Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Not sure who “you people” are but —
Because generally it’s true.
This is a rather unique situation. And one that involves an overly jittery cop and a driver who didn’t really think things through.
The majority of force cases involve fleeing.
When you run from a cop: do you have a weapon? Will you use it? Will you dump it somewhere that kids can get to it? Will you take a hostage? A little old lady sitting in her rocker on the front porch? Fun to her head? Or will you just turn and fire at the cop?
As for fleeing by vehicle? Well, I’m against cops chasing you indefinitely.
At the moment the ideal is to get air support and follow the suspect, now a criminal in action by fleeing, from the air.
Which is why I support police forces getting and using light weight drones. The idiot fleeing is already dangerous. We don’t need cops acting just as stupid in rolling multi ton weapons.
Just follow him from above and pick him/her up later. Like tomorrow!
I’d also support emp disablers but I just know the shoot first mentality is going to make for a lot of damaged bumpers and doors. So that’s $500-$1500 per flight chase. And, you know, qualified immunity.
Not sure if that’s proper justice for flight or not. Not for being stupid.
But you don’t properly approach reform by defunding. You do it by increasing funding, changing the tools, and proper training.
And not standing in front of the cop who pops a guy in the head for jwalking.
Stupid cops should suffer consequences. Evil cops should be dealt with.
We agree there are problems. We just have different solutions.
And while you want to knee jerk and dong wank because MSNBC said so, I would like to see the actual problems addressed without creating a nation of vigilantes over fake fantasy and half-truth stories.
People who can’t look at both sides are as big a problem as bad cops. And there’s a lite more stupid believers of the fictional narratives than there are bad cops.
By the way, emp disablers are nothing like the giant claws in movies. They’re small cone shaped projectiles about the size of a baseball that trigger a micro pulse on impact with a magnetic surface. They’re fired from a air cannon pump gun similar to an m203 launcher, thump, not bang.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
If the cops cannot see a weapon, there is no intimidate danger to life, and that is the only acceptable grounds for shooting. All you have listed is a list of excuses a cop can come up with to justify executing someone for not respecting their authority, and when there is no intimidate threat to the cops or other peoples lives. And if a cop with gun in hand cannot deal with some stopping and turning to shoot them, they are not capable of doing their job.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
[breaking the law, flight is illegal]
Correct. That is the reality of the situation. I don’t like it but fully understand it.
The solution is to remove lethal rounds and replace them for a less lethal alternative in standard patrolling.
And! Training to stop, not kill, with live rounds.
Shooting a shoulder, a kidney, a leg, are all better choices than the head or heart.
Using plastic or beanbag rounds rather than live rounds.
Starting with rock salt rather than plastic or beanbags.
I don’t justify the use if lethal force in these cases. (Nor most cases).
I just state I recognise the facts and the reality.
The fleeing suspect is no longer innocent. That is a crime in progress. Recognising that these people are not innocent allows for logical discussion about needed changes in dealing with the abuse of power in response.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
See, I don't even need to make those pseudo quotes where you bend over backwards to defend cops shooting the unarmed, or Republicans enforcing their stupidity on everyone else. You consistently do it anyway.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
Where am I defending bad cops? Defending the good ones, the vast
Majority? Absolutely. But where am i defending bad ones?
Huh? How did you get that from a discussion on police tactics and ethics?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complied
It's called "people read your post history". It's not that hard.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have complie
Let’s make this clear once again.
A tiger can no more change its stripes Han a leopard it’s spots.
I’m as liberal as you will find on all but a tiny handful of issues. And there I am so “conservative” the conservatives run in fear.
The rule of law should be enforced with a lead fist. Not one of steel and brass.
We need more police, more funding, and more technology.
Those police need more training and need be less reactionary.
Things like soft plastic bullets and tear gas should be the rule, not the riot control exception.
Cops don’t need brass slugs at a traffic stop. And a cs canister is far more useful than a 20 round clip.
A 40psi punch in the back with a cotton covered vegetable package is more likely to reduce crime than putting a bullet in the head.
Nobody here is supporting murder.
But I refuse to pretend that there aren’t logical understandable reasons despite their failure.
A shite that runs from the cops has every potential for being dangerous to the police and the neighbourhood.
That doesn’t mean the fuck turd should be killed!
You are upset I won’t pretend they’re innocent martyrs. I live in the real world.
Anyone who flees is a criminal. The flight itself is criminal. And you’re .a shite for doing so. Nothing, nothing, will change that opinion.
But that doesn’t mean you should die for being a turd.
Solution?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have com
You can keep trying to twist your semantics in knots. It's not going to fool most readers, save for a few trolls that regularly rally behind pornographers who sue blind veterans, and those who cheer when the police shoot an unarmed black woman in her own home.
When Republicans, policemen and other authoritarians get called out on these articles your first move is some variation of "but but but DEMOCRATS" or "but but but BIDEN" or "but but but ANTIFA" or the same points trumpeted by the Republicans you so desperately want to salvage the reputation of. Getting a concession that they might have fucked up once or twice out of you is like a wisdom tooth extraction: needlessly laborious and agonizing.
There are reasons. That doesn't mean those reasons are good. You can argue that a policeman has reason to fear for his life when faced with an individual who is running away with no clothes or weapons to the point where a lethal shot is deemed necessary. I'm not saying you can't argue that. I'm saying that it's a shit argument and a shit hill to die on.
Nobody is asking you to call them martyrs. Thing is, it's usually hard to determine a person's innocence or rationale when they end up dead. I will say it's amusing to see you lick the footprints of policemen because you think the bruiser armed to the teeth needs the defense of a simp.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have
It really. My first reaction tends to be ‘well then, that’s a stupid solution’.
It’s about finding proper solutions. Not reputations.
See, like I pointed out… very MSNBCNN of you.
How you got from ‘need more access to less lethal’ to shooting a naked person is acceptable??
Just the people clogging streets without permits. The ones who than assault and attack the law enforcement who is ent out to clear the streets for traffic. Just the people who flip cars… who break doors and windows, steal every last item out of a store, set buildings, trash, cars on fire.
How about the selfish people wondering through housing in the middle of the night with a bullhorn? I have a hard time equating justice with rioting.
Benoit the dozen or so idiots who attempted to penetrate the capital beyond the the peaceful lobby… or the thousands of idiots who call form”justice” while stealing everything of the shelves of a store, only to set It on fire as they leave.
The ends don’t justify the means and you don’t get a free pass because “they’re angry”.
Your so busy being angry that you ignore every chance at getting some level of change put in place.
I’ve been very consistent in my call for less lethal methods.
You ignore that because I won’t ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater’.
You don’t kill the person with cancer. You treat the cancer. You don’t disband law enforcement, you make a systematic push to find and remove the bad cops.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should have
Did a cop really shoot a naked person?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They should
Try using a simple query like "cop shoots naked" on DuckDuckGo or Google, and you will find multiple instance of it happening. It is quite a common occurrence.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They sho
Wow. There are actually cases of unarmed naked people being shot by cops. That’s not something I usually search for. Obviously.
Not a “Common occurrence” from what I can see—most of the naked people have knives— but enough to just further my thoughts!
Less lethal weapons.
Weed out bad cops.
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