British Labels Propagandizing To Children
from the not-so-much-teaching-as-preaching dept
While the practice of the entertainment industry issuing propaganda to school children is certainly nothing new, every time I see it in practice I shiver involuntairly. But when I came across a story from the BBC regarding a British label actually coming in to talk directly with high school kids about the many evils of piracy, a couple of questions leapt to mind.
But give the label credit for bringing along toys for the kids to play with this time. They showed up with a bunch of their music-making equipment to let the kids have a go at producing their own tracks. But even in this there was an ulterior motive. They were hoping to show kids (KIDS!) how hard it is to actually make the music they listen to, which would then demonstrate all the many people that are involved in the process. Why?
"Paul Shedden, Head of Label at Shed Records, explained the project is about raising awareness of the 'unseen' faces in the industry who rely on music sales for their livelihoods. He said: 'A whole army of people work behind the scenes to bring you new, fresh music. Everything from the songwriters through to production, artists, engineers, radio pluggers, PR companies all those people need to get paid. Otherwise they can't continue doing the jobs they love and the music you love will stop coming out.'"
Okay, the first question here is the obvious one: how can the threat of disappearing music production be used when we see more music coming out than ever before? Want to guess whether the label reps bothered to mention that to the kids? In addition to that question, I wonder if they brought amongst their toys some of the amazing new technology that's come out which allows artists to do more of this work themselves, rather than rely on an "army" of other folks who "need" to get paid.
But beyond that is the real question which is at the heart of why I have a problem with this kind of thing. Why do we let corporate interests speak directly to our children about industry needs and policy? And why aren't there representatives from opposite sides of the debate alongside them?
Would we let McDonalds come in to speak directly to our children about how they consume food? Would we allow gun manufacturers to hold audience in the school auditorium for a quick Q&A on gun control laws without representatives from the opposite side of the debate? Maybe we could get Larry Flynt to come in and hold court at a Saint Mary's School For Girls assembly on what types of jobs are best suited for women?
Or maybe schools should educate and leave industry out of the process entirely. If I were a parent (which I'm not), I'd be more than a little itchy at the prospect of my kid's school bringing in corporations to teach our children.
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Filed Under: children, music, propaganda, uk
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arguments
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Re: arguments
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Re: arguments
The worst the music industry does is push artists with bad judgment into bad deals and sue people who rip off their stuff.
Oh yeah. Same thing.
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Re: Re: arguments
The recording industry? Not so much.
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Re: Re: arguments
Back to logic: McDonalds can cause obesity in the same way celery can kill you. If you only eat that one thing and keep shoving it down your throat even when you're not hungry, then it can kill you.
The recording industry has, and will continue to extort money from people who they have no proof of ever ripping off their stuff. They will continue to kill our rights just so they can have just a little more money.
Hay, at least with the McDonalds (and celery) you're choosing to live dangerously.
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Re: Re: arguments
No argument on the first 3, though I think the evidence for cancer is equivocal. Interestingly though, McDs and other fast food places have been working to adapt to the changing market and offer additional choices that are more nutritious.
But still, brainwashing kids? Worse than all that combined.
Give me a choice, and I'd pick pretty much any disease that would impair my body over anything (disease or not) that would cause undue influence over my mind.
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Re: Re: arguments
No they don't. Overindulgence in the types of foods they sell can potentially lead to the first three of those, but it's more than possible to eat McDonald's food and not be at a higher risk for any of that.
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Re: arguments
If you flip it around to more realistic numbers, though, you'll end up with 500 of them mass-producing and hawking an item to 500,000 or more of us, and now the question is "with a ratio of 1:100, how can it be these guys are failing so hard at getting paid"? And the answer is that your money isn't really going to them, it's going to line some executive's pockets. All those 500 people in the PR firm and recording studio are working on salary, and the artists and songwriters, the people you really care about, are being screwed by lopsided contracts.
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Copyrighted for sure
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Re: Copyrighted for sure
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Re: Re: Copyrighted for sure
At least the kids are getting a complete experience in what it takes to be a label-owned musician. We normally get upset when the labels propagandize by lying and not showing the whole picture in their rants, but it sounds like this label took it to heart and fixed their propaganda so that the kids realize the true value (or lack thereof) for joining their label.
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From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Or maybe schools should educate and leave industry out of the process entirely. If I were a parent (which I'm not), I'd be more than a little itchy at the prospect of my kid's school bringing in corporations to teach our children."
So now the decriers of censorship are advocating censorship? Maybe you should get off of your ass instead and create a educational program on the virtues of freeloading and piracy, Maybe instead of field trips to the zoo, the kids should go to a PETA rally and get ripped for wearing leather and eating chicken nuggets. Or perhaps you could arrange for a guest speaker from NAMBLA to talk to the eighth grade during the section on human sexuality. Great thoughts, keep it coming.
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Yadayadayadayada...
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
If keeping lies and deceit out of our schools is censorship, then I'm for censorship in our schools (but only to keep lies and deceit out).
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
No, he was advocating a balanced event with both sides of the situation present.
You should really brush up on your reading comprehension.
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Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
"Would we let McDonalds come in to speak directly to our children about how they consume food?"
"Or maybe schools should educate and leave industry out of the process entirely."
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Re: Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
I believe your last quote illustrates the entire point of his post. Advocates on both sides are too biased to speak intelligently and honestly about the subject at hand.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Holy Christ, thank you! I was beginning to think that I was somehow completely failing to illustrate my point in all this....
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
The ones advocating censorship here are IP maximists who only want one side of the issue presented to students while trying everything they can to censor criticisms.
I'm not necessarily against their side being presented, I'm against their side being the only side presented. That's not education, it's indoctrination.
and there is a difference between free speech that's individually propagated and opinions that are endorsed/encouraged by the school. I expect publicly funded schools to educate and not to indoctrinate children, and such an expectation is not an unreasonable one.
"Maybe you should get off of your ass instead and create a educational program on the virtues of freeloading and piracy,"
I'm sure there are many people who will be more than glad to discuss the other side of the issue if only given the opportunity. I can probably find people on this blog alone who would be willing to. The ones responsible for censorship are IP maximists.
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Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Talk's cheap. Go volunteer instead of sniveling about it.
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Re: Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Like many morons on this issue, you seem to confuse criticism of speech with censorship. You and your corporate masters are free to exercise your speech, as we are free to exercise our free speech to criticise it. That's the polar opposite of censorship, even if you find such criticism uncomfortable.
However, indoctrinating kids into false propaganda is both unworkable and not something you can defend. Look at how effective D.A.R.E. was to illustrate.
As for the rest of your moronic rant:
"Maybe you should get off of your ass instead and create a educational program on the virtues of freeloading and piracy"
Since I don't support it, no. There's a gulf between what idiots like you try to pretend I believe and what I actually believe. Listening to the truth might be uncomfortable, but until you choose to do that, you're destroying dialogue here.
"Maybe instead of field trips to the zoo, the kids should go to a PETA rally and get ripped for wearing leather and eating chicken nuggets"
You are now officially an idiot, incapable of debating anything.
"Great thoughts, keep it coming."
I won't even bother with your last point. If you think this is either valid debating technique or a valid argument, you are too far gone, and I feel sorry for you.
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Whoa, you really don't know what censorship means, do you? I'm not suggesting we outlaw corporate speech, I'm suggesting we not invite industry into our educational system specifically to talk to them about policies related to their industry. That isn't educational....at ALL. And it has no place within our schools, no matter WHAT the issue....
"Maybe you should get off of your ass instead and create a educational program on the virtues of freeloading and piracy"
No thanks. Your idiotic mis-labels aside, advocacy groups from my side of the debate have no business being in schools either. Schools aren't there to advocate, but to educate. This isn't a war for the minds of the young, because there should BE no such war....
"Maybe instead of field trips to the zoo, the kids should go to a PETA rally and get ripped for wearing leather and eating chicken nuggets."
Uh...what???!!!
"Or perhaps you could arrange for a guest speaker from NAMBLA to talk to the eighth grade during the section on human sexuality."
Okay, seriously....did you just stroke out or something (heh, NAMBLA, stroke....get it?)
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Strawman. No one has argued "the virtues of freeloading and piracy." We're just arguing the problems of having private corporate interests write curricula that favors their interests. However, if you do want curricula explaining copyright, the public domain and fair use, we're aware of a few public interest groups that have created such things.
Maybe instead of field trips to the zoo, the kids should go to a PETA rally and get ripped for wearing leather and eating chicken nuggets. Or perhaps you could arrange for a guest speaker from NAMBLA to talk to the eighth grade during the section on human sexuality. Great thoughts, keep it coming
Wow. It takes some kind of cluelessness to interpret "don't let corporate interests try to brainwash kids" and turn that into "let NAMBLA talk to kids about human sexuality."
All you've done is convince everyone that you're an idiot.
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Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
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Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
Or even worse, someone from the record industry.
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Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
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Re: Re: Re: From The Hypocritical-Douchebag-Department
They've sued lots of kids.
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Yawn.
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Re:
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Re:
You keep forgetting, we don't care about your industry anymore. Move on already. Why can't you get that through your head? We dont want you or need you and we dont want our kids listening to your bullshit.
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I hear read innumerable anonymous cowards say: "Mike and his website are all about piracy." But then when those who come here to honestly discuss the issues, the trolls come in here and say: "Mike and his website are all about piracy."
Yawn.
Innumerable piracy advocates, like anonymous cowards, exist of a large sample of people, each with differing goals and perspectives. Some may be pushing for more education, while others see that the industry is so corrupt and ignorant of the consequences of their laws and so greedy that they will say anything to keep the money flowing at all costs to come up with correct, accurate education of the issues.
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Re:
By education you mean indoctrination. We say more education, not indoctrination, is needed.
and we're not 'piracy' advocates.
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Did you really just admit that you don't understand the difference between education and corporate propaganda?
No wonder you don't sign your name. You'd be unemployable with logic skills like that.
In the meantime, when have we ever argued that "more education" is needed in response to infringement. We haven't. We've pointed out that the rush towards education campaigns have been shown to be a failure.
So, not only do you not understand basic English, but you have to make up stuff as well.
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Re: Re:
How much of this actually works? Are there any reports on this propaganda from 1, 5, or 10 years? There's serious money flying around for propaganda. I would think that all the industries involved would want to keep accurate notes on its effectiveness.
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This is in no way suggesting that it's OK to feed these kids bullshit even if it's ignored. If we continue to feed them this crap they'll start ignoring useful stuff like history. That's something that a lot of people need to start paying attention to.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
I wish I could remember where I read that teen pregnancy rates went up after the abstinence only propaganda started. I'd really like to cite that one.
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Simpsons Did It
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Re: Simpsons Did It
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But when the copyright industry does it, no one thinks twice. Well, we do. But the vast majority of people see no problem with it.
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And here was the TV station just GIVING IT AWAY FOR FREE! Think of all those people WHO AREN'T GETTING PAID!!! I think SC Johnson should sue TV stations for just GIVING AWAY their expensive commercials.
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Par for the course -- so fight fire with fire
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The after story
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Thank god for small favors.
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What debate?
Gun ownership is a 2nd amendment right so there is no debate. But no, the NRA shouldn't be allowed in school just like most any other organization. But what if they were presenting a gun safety program.
Just a note though, when I was in high school, they gave the hunter safety course to the boys in gym class in our 10th grade year. I don't know if they still do that.
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This Has To Stop..
Actual citation needed here. You've linked to another TD article, that links to another TD article, and when I finally do find the "study" or whatever is supposed to prove your point, it turns out that it's simply an essay about the topic, void of any statistical analysis or data.
Secondly, it's an essay written by Oberholzer-Gee/Strumpf. For those not keeping up, these are the Harvard professors who quite seriously suggested that piracy isn't all that bad because musicians might "work for free beer." The same duo who hides their data behind non-disclosure agreements while suggesting that rampant copying of information is beneficial for everyone else. (Oh, the irony!)
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Re: This Has To Stop..
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Re: This Has To Stop..
Reading comprehension fail. Anyone who has read the Oberholzer-Gee/Strumpf paper knows that (a) it includes plenty of data to back up the much greater production of music today than ever before and (b) that your quote is *way* out of context. It is not suggesting, as you falsely imply, that infringement is okay because musicians get free beer. It points out that there are *all sorts of motivations* for people to make music.
We're happy to discuss things seriously, but misrepresenting stuff is not cool.
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I look at the "more education, not laws" posit in the same light as the "more gun control" grandstanding whenever there is tragedy involving guns. We need less guns not more controls. So therefore we need less music to enable less pirating. BAN MUSIC. Then there would be 0 pirating.
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Big freakin deal
Keep saying things that make no sense and assume kids stupid, that's the way to get through to them it seems.
You give your spiel and we'll have a talk - but it'll probably be a lot of "Dad - you won't believe what these people were trying to sell us today!"
I'm sorry, but to me copyright (and patents) are morally indefensible (and repugnant) - that's the way I present it.
My kids directly know two people who have recording studios in their homes - and have seen the entire process from recording to mixing to 'pressing disks' (go ahead - tell them how awful you think it is - they can spot an opinion from a mile away)
They'd probably think trotting out all those people and saying they "need to be paid" was funny - just like when I had a field trip in 4th grade (I'm 39 now) to see the only business in town that used a "mainframe" and sparring with the (rather old) lady who 'ran' it. She insisted all the pins and cards and people (and noise) was necessary to print their forms and track their stuff. I tried to explain that I could write several small programs to do most of that for her in my spare time on my Commodore 64 - and if I could do that then those shiny new apple 2's (or whatever was out at the time ... PC Jr's maybe?) with a professional programmer doing the coding was exactly what she needed to be looking into.
I learned what an "incredulous look" was that day - and I picture her every time I hear the 'copyright' lobby babble.
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Yes. Yes, yes, oh lord please let this happen at every all girls school everywhere.
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I agree 100% with the above..
"They could be teaching very young children that pirating is something that authority figures don't want you to do, which means it is something children will LOVE to do. If old people hate it, it must be fun and exciting."
Couldn't be more right about that. You are so right about how well teen pregnancy rates.
And the music industry itself is a *SHINING EXAMPLE* of how 'anti-drug' propaganda works well....
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"But Mister, I can do all this with this"...
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Actually the gun control types are well represented within the current curriculum's of public education, without any input at all from members hunting groups or advocates for the Second Amendment.
Remember where it says "The Right Of The People" in the bill of Rights applies to the individual. If it does not then the Forth amendment has no meaning.
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Before we certified teachers we had experts in that field teach. It was called Master/Journeymen/Apprentice and it's still in action in other countries. We've just governnmentally monetized this system with an entity that thinks money into something equals profit and then we wonder why the only complaint from the top funded schools is "we need more money".
The MJA system still works and is seen more in other countries. I still wonder why we have a society so built on the double-think word it is, public schools, that we forgot what worked for us very well for every culture since the dawn of man.
My basic premise for this argument is what method is more sound. Having a system where at the age of 12 you can decide a trade then having the option to later decide to apprentice in a different path all leading to having at the very least skilled journeymen in an industry at the age of 18. Or (do your own google) have a system where the majority spend an average of forty thousand, compounded with interest, don't even know what the hell there major is going to be at 18 and 4-12 years down the road say oops and spend the rest of the meager existence paying off those loans and finally at 30+ actually finding a field there happy in. Nothing worse then a system that perpetuates wasting years of time, money and energy. /soap-box end.
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