Thou Shalt Not Sue Sony
from the can't-let-people-have-rights dept
AC alerts us to a change in the new Sony PlayStation Network terms of service that basically says that you agree not to sue the company. Honestly (and Sony pointed this out in its defense), such clauses are pretty common. It is debatable how enforceable some of these clauses are, but they say that you have to go to arbitration, rather than sue. The terms also bar participating in class action lawsuits, which seems much more questionable. Where Sony gets ridiculous is in claiming that this change "is designed to benefit both the consumer and the company by ensuring that there is adequate time and procedures to resolve disputes." That makes me think of a two syllable word whose first four letters are bull. Come on. At this point, everyone knows that binding arbitration between a company and a consumer wildly favors companies. A study from a few years back found that companies win in arbitration against consumers 95% of the time. Sony knows this. So its move is not about protecting consumers at all, and it's insulting for it to imply that it is.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: arbitration, playstation, playstation network, psn, terms of service
Companies: sony
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So, "agreeing" to the PS TOS means..
How about if I'm George Hotz and Sony sues me - all of a sudden I'm not allowed to file a countersuit?
Fuck Sony and the horse they rode in on.
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Re: So, "agreeing" to the PS TOS means..
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Re: Re: So, "agreeing" to the PS TOS means..
So it appears that this is an attempt by Sony to prevent customers from suing them for their egregiously poor security measures. For this reason, the class action bar is especially troubling, as that would be the most effective way for Sony to be sued case like this, where the damages are spread out among a large number of people in small increments. And the threat of class action suits is generally the only thing keeping companies honest absent a regulatory regime (and even in a regulatory regime, class action lawsuits can be more effective for a variety of reasons, such as regulatory capture or an inadequate enforcement scheme). Although they aren't terribly effective at compensating people (except lawyers), they are still better than arbitration).
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Re: So, "agreeing" to the PS TOS means..
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Aha
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Re: Aha
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With that said not buying the brand does hurt them.
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He isn't saying brick like "It's not going to work at all".
He's saying brick as in "All I use it for is netflix and online stuff." Basically, useless now for whatever purpose he had it for.
Hence, Bricked.
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Actually No - on my reading - I think they are relying on inertia - most people won't bother.
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I remember your rootkit fiasco and the TOS you tried to force down peoples throats then. Seriously? If I declare bankruptcy I have to delete all my music?
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Obviously 30 dollars in tax means that the phones weren't really free. So someone started a class action lawsuit against the cell phone company. I believe that the cell phone company lost in court until they appealed to the Supreme Court, arguing that their contract bars class action lawsuits, and the idiots in the supreme court sided with the cell phone company.
This means that class action lawsuits will soon be pretty much dead in the US, once all companies not run by complete idiots amend their contracts to ban class action lawsuits. This pretty much guarantees that companies can get away with stuff like that Cell Phone company, because no one is going to waste their time suing over $30 dollars. The lawsuit itself would cost the victim much more then $30 dollars even if they won.
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This doesn't allow for that. At all.
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You can always sue
They can write all of the terms in the world - if they are negligent and cause damage, they are held liable. Period.
These terms are scare tactics. Don't be bullied.
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Re: You can always sue
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh, wait, you're serious? You really think because something is a "right" that it can't be removed?
I have some Tennessee oceanfront property for sale...
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*DBS: Don't Buy Sony.
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Typo
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The sad truth
Playing games and having their PS3 is more important to most people. The toy they get to play with is more important than the possibly of getting to sue when everything goes south.
But sadly this won't happen. I never read TOS contracts so I can't blame anyone, but news articles like this alert myself and others to what Sony is trying to pull over on us. Most people will click "agree" and move on. I won't, I haven't bought a Sony product since my PS2 and I doubt I ever will again. There's too many reasons why to list here.
To everyone who's reading this story (on any news site, not just this one), you know what you're doing by agreeing to the terms and you know what the company's been capable of in the past so good luck.
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Re: The sad truth
How can they when the TOS is specifically binding?
" Companies (smart companies, this may not include Sony) would catch on that including this bull was costing them money and customers and then they'd just concentrate on good service instead."
No, most companies go the arbitration route, which runs counter to being able to sue in open court by leagues.
1) Arbitration doesn't report the results of the mediation
2) There is huge incentive for judges to favor with the plaintiffs, who are usually businesses.
3)The arbitration judges are usually gone if they favor defendants.
So why not sue in open court with all of the precedents? Because the law allows this binding in arbitration.
The only thing I remember about arbitration is how Al Franken pushed for the denouncement of arbitration.
The move "Hot Coffee" also discusses this, but be aware, it's quite controversial. I'm sure an AC will come here to say the movie is bad, under the guise of working for the Chamber of Commerce (since they're portrayed quite badly in the move) so I'll leave off by saying, Your mileage may vary.
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You don't buy it. Hence, no reason to agree to their terms. I haven't for years. Believe me, it's quite possible.
The rest of the post becomes kind'a moot so I'll just stop there.
I look into a company and product before I spend money on it. If I don't agree with practices then they don't get my money and I have nothing to do with them. If more people did that then... (continues rant on soapbox)
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So... when Is congress going to crack down on this? oh
wait, that requires action.
Citizens are screwed.
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Amusing.
Won't affect me, anyway. Their isn't a SONY logo in my house, anywhere, not even on a blank CD. There are, however, large screen TVs, stereos, clock radios, and a number of other things happily purchased from other manufacturers. I don't just advise it, I actually vote with my wallet.
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What if the minor is the recipient of the Sony product? The minor are not of legal age to consent to a binding legal document?
What if some asshat at Sony added in to the TOS that 10% of your gross income is forfeited to Sony?
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Can I...?
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The courts have, essentially, ruled that there is no need for a meeting of the minds or an actual signature for contract terms to be binding. The company simply needs to publish them to you and include a clause that states that use of the service equates to signing the contract.
But if that's legally true, then it is true both ways.
Either in a separate mailing or printed on a check used to pay the first bill, include an image of the sections of the terms of service you reject, with those clauses lined out and the statement that continuing to provide service constitutes a binding agreement. Mail it to the company.
Suddenly, you have the same type of agreement with them that they do with you. Equally binding, equally enforceable, and if their shrinkwrap EULA is binding on you, then yours binds them too. And suddenly you can sue again.
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I just saw thhis comment on Arstechnica...
What got my notice was that this same TOS update removes references to "purchases" of content on the PSN in favor of the term "license" or "content license". So, after this update, you aren't buying content anymore from PSN... You're just giving them money for a license. Sounds questionable for older purchases (they shouldn't be able to just declare old purchases are now rentals).
Additional on this subject:
OLD -> NEW WORDING
purchase -> completing a transaction
acquiring -> licensing
sales -> transactions
pay for purchase -> complete transaction payment
"You bear all risk of loss for accessing your content" -> "You bear all risk of loss for accessing the content"
cost-> total amount
purchase -> order
DELETED WORDING (any reference to owning is removed)
"purchase of rental content, subscriptions and other prepaid products"
"Upon termination of this Agreement, Your Account, or license to any Property, You will immediately cease use of the Property and delete or destroy copies of the Property."
“own,” “ownership”
Last edited by Blue Adept on 16 Sep 2011 15:00
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/09/mandatory-ps3-update-removes-right-to-join-in-a- class-action-lawsuit.ars?comments=1&start=40#comment-22066988
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The fail boat, promises to screw every single one...
We'll set a course for failure, our eyes on a new defense...
dere is no T infront of AC... I has a sad.
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Idea
Heck, donate them to childs play and get even more good PR.
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Also it cannot be retrospective for any products already purchased and used. So really only for new PS3, PS Vita, PSN owners.
Though when you read their Terms it would of been interesting if it was around when GeoHot was sued, since under these terms they would of breached them themselves for suing him (or am I reading it wrong).
As for whether it is legal in the USA for these terms to be enforced, if so, it is even further proof of why the USA needs better consumer protection statutes and tort reform.
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I do not own a PS3 and I don't begin to know where to find the answer to my question.
These TOS are for the PSN, to get the updated code bits for newer DRM'd games and BlueRay keys/features do you not have to use the PSN network to get these things? Or do they have a different channel to deliver these things to the consoles?
I ask because there was a story in my recent memory about a game coming out that to play at all required you to connect to the PSN network and let them update your firmware otherwise your new $60 game was just a brick that you unwrapped and could not return.
Is what they are doing as bad as I think it is?
They want you to settle for a machine that will no longer do "everything", because your unwilling to accept TOS that they modified to protect themselves from being punished for misdeeds they might continue to do in the future?
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Arbitration
In fact, in the cases people seem to be concerned about here (suits against the company), arbitration is actually more consumer-friendly, as it's easier and much cheaper than going to court. Sony's not concerned about those cases - which are few and far between - but rather the ability to use arbitration as a quick and cheap method for bringing its own claims.
And the class action waiver, of course.
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How legit?
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Re: How legit?
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Sony haven't answered e-mails and the notice of the ban doesn't give a time-frame.
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