Illinois Prosecutors Planning To Appeal Ruling That Said Recording Police Is Protected By The First Amendment
from the of-course-they-are dept
Earlier this month, we wrote about the ridiculous criminal case against Michael Allison, who was facing 75 years in prison for the horrible crime of recording the police. The details of the case made it quite clear that the charges against him were vindictive, in response to attempts by Allison to challenge a questionable fine he'd received. Thankfully, an Illinois state court tossed out the lawsuit, noting that the law pretty clearly violated the First Amendment.Of course, for whatever reason, Illinois state law enforcement has taken particular interest in the case, with the state Attorney General office coming in to help with the case, and the Illinois Assistant Attorney General flat out claiming that there's no First Amendment right to record police. So, it should probably come as little surprise that the state has indicated that it's planning to appeal the ruling (via Radley Balko). Perhaps this isn't a surprise -- but it does suggest a really broken system where the state is so adamant in trying to vindictively punish a guy for defending his own rights.
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Filed Under: free speech, illinois, michael allison, police, recording
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What a sad state
With the evidence recently of how important it is for us to be able to record police, as proved by the pepper spray incident in NYC, not only do we need to make sure that the courts realize this is a first ammendment right, but it is also necessary for our physical safety.
The police need to realize that just because they've been given a badge, that does not give them the right to trample on our civil liberties.
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Re: What a sad state
Its called Deindividuation. Philip Zimbardo, did an experiment at Stanford, where he study of the psychological effects of becoming a prisoner or prison guard. The same effect can be seen in most law officers.
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Re: Re: What a sad state
It makes me wonder: Is the effect worse when someone has a predisposition of being a bully? It would seem to me that someone that enjoys lording power, size, and control over others would be the first person that would apply to be a police officer (not that all police officers are like that) and that the effect found during the Stanford Prison Experiment would just compound an already crappy attitude towards others.
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Re: Re: Re: What a sad state
seems like all those entertainment industry execs should apply, then. they fill the criteria nicely!
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Re: Re: Re: What a sad state
seems like all those entertainment industry execs should apply, then. they fill the criteria nicely!
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Re: Re: Re: What a sad state
No, just a democrat. You know that whole lack of thought, mob mentality, shout down the opposition, lack of logic, follow any leader who promises you "free stuff", thing. ;)
Kidding aside, as a guess I would have to say predisposition to bullying, and the blue fraternity thing, in the case of police officers, probably does compound the effect.
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Of course, if we're unlucky it will go all the way to SCOTUS and set the wrong precedent.
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Now, since they are police and are suppose to work for the public, they should be subject to a higher level of scrutiny. Especially if they can affect so many lives in a negative way legally.
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If they are just sitting in their car, leave them alone. On the toilet, office whatever. No problem.
As soon as they arrest, fine, pull over, detain, pepper spray or tase someone, that should be 100% ok to tape by whoever.
We dont want to know what size of breasts they prefer, just what they do when they break out the authority.
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"A statute intended to prevent unwarranted intrusions into a citizen's privacy cannot be used as a shield for public officials who cannot assert a comparable right of privacy in their public duties,"
Key wording "public duties" It doesn't say Private duties, meaning there is some expectation of privacy.
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Just saying.
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"Should people be allowed to breach all of their privacy because they are "public" officials?"
Sorry, it does have a place here as a response. Thanks for playing though.
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No the public officials don't have any expectatation of privacy even in that case - however the "someone" that they are talking to might - and I think that is where your confusion arises from.
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The Law enforcement will jump at the chance to use a private citizens camera footage if it helps them make a conviction, such as security cameras and private web cams set up in a house. But when the camera helps to prove the guilt of one of their own, it's a "legal violation". You can't have it both ways.
If they come back and say you cannot video tape police,as a violation of wire tapping laws, then they need to offer any criminal in jail due to video evidence a new trial with the video tape evidence excluded.
So how does THAT make any sense?
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I'm pretty sure if I was sitting in my car, windows closed, talking to someone, while I was on the clock, my boss wouldn't like it very much.
As an analogy, I'm not supposed to txt or make phone calls where I work. I can leave the area where I work to make brief phone calls, and I might get some privacy if I walk away from people, but a police car is their office. I, as a taxpayer who pays their wages, have every right to tape them while they are in their car talking to someone. Want to talk to your wife/SO/etc? Do it where its less likely to be confused with you doing your job. (IE: i'm supposed to take breaks in the breakroom so there is no confusion)
How would I obstruct their work, when they aren't doing their job in the first place since they are on the phone? (if they are on a personal call)
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Re: Anonymous Coward,
When they're doing their job, yes. Why does everyone throw out this stupid argument on every story like this? Then someone has to answer it. When they are doing their job as employees of the public, they do not have a right to "privacy." Your boss has a right to read all of your emails at work, ask what you're doing, and record you. When you're on the job you have no expectation of privacy. When cops are doing their job, they have no expectation of privacy.
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Re: Re: Anonymous Coward,
> they do not have a right to "privacy.
Even that statement is too broad. If a cop is discussing something with a confidential informant, he's on the job, but he has a reasonable expectation of being able to keep his discussion private, even if it's a meet out on a city street.
It would be perfectly acceptable for him to object to someone walking up and sticking a microphone between him and the informant and demanding to be able to record the conversation merely because he's a public official on duty.
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Re: Re: Re: Anonymous Coward,
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Re: Re: Re: Anonymous Coward,
It would be perfectly acceptable for him to object to someone walking up and sticking a microphone between him and the informant and demanding to be able to record the conversation merely because he's a public official on duty.
Object, yes. Arrest, no.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Anonymous Coward,
I agree that it would be inappropriate to arrest for 'eavesdropping' or some similar charge, but if the person's behavior with the camera scared off the informant, for example, it would be completely legitimate to make an arrest for obstruction or impeding an investigation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anonymous Coward,
I don't agree, that standard would be ripe for abuse and create a chilling effect on recording police. Any time an officer is talking to someone you might be afraid to record him because he could arrest you for intereference. You know it would happen.
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I don't buy it
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The police is a force maintained by tax money with the sole goal of protecting the very same ppl that pay their wages, the citizens. And wow, incidentally they are citizens too, just like us.
What is sad is that the Illinois PD seem to think they are above the constitutional rights. There is no laws that forbid ppl from recording police activity (and there shouldn't be any anyways) thus making this an exercise of your FREEDOM. You are FREE to do it because it is NOT AGAINST the law. They may argue that it's not morally correct (srsly...) but morals have NOTHING to do when you have your rights secured in the law (or lack of a law forbidding).
In the end it is yet another Governmental outfit in the process of killing (or trying to kill) the American Constitution to step over its ashes afterwards. Sometimes I pity the American.
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Hey ! Then Someone Owes Somebody Something
But... seriously (sort of) who owns the rights to that video ? It looks like the state is 'pirating' some footage for personal profit... say, whatever the fine$ worth. And just how did they obtain it ? Through some DCMA/ACTA naughty type physical piracy or 'illegal' download ? That smacks of mo-money to Mr. Allison !
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Stars, hide your fires!
Let not light see my black and deep desires.
-- Macbeth, Scene IV
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They must be hit in the wallet and those who fail to enforce the law against other officers must be punished, or nothing will change.
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No, that's not what they said. They said using that law against someone for recording the police was a violation of that person's first amendment. The law itself was not.
Yes, it makes a difference.
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Typical for the cops..
I spoke to a police officer in my town about it; he said "We know there are cameras - we ignore them and pay attention to doing our job. They are actually an incentive to being careful about how we go about things. The cameras can help us in cases where the police officer is attacked."
So not all the cops are corrupt cretins.
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Re: Typical for the cops..
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Re: Typical for the cops..
But most will still protect the ones who ARE corrupt cretins and/or do nothing about their abuses.
That makes them partly responsible for the bad behavior of the few.
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Re: Re: Re: Typical for the cops..
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Typical for the cops..
They can testify against the criminals. But the police culture says testifying against a criminal is a betrayal if the criminal wears a badge. If police were honest, they would welcome Internal Affairs. Instead, that department is hated (or so I hear). If the police were honest, turning in another cop for breaking the law would be celebrated. Instead, it's condemned.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Typical for the cops..
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Gray areas
For instance, the rights of a "presumed innocent" citizen being questioned or arrested might be violated if recording equipment picks up private information about that citizen from a radio, conversation between an officer and suspect, or laptop/tablet display. PII is routinely transmitted/received in police communications, and this information needs to be have reasonable protection. If I can effectively stand over your shoulder and take pictures with a telephoto lens or listen to a whisper from fifty feet away with a parabolic microphone, many of those protections are lost.
There may have to be something that allows public servants the chance to ask people they are interacting with whether they would prefer to opt out in situations like this. Or maybe permit recording, but hold those doing the recording accountable if they publish sensitive or inappropriate information. (Not a real problem to blur out a driver's license, or even a suspect's face.)
Personally, I think in most cases I'd rather have someone else recording. However, I can think of very reasonable situations where this could be an invasion of privacy, damaging, or even dangerous. Witness protection program? Informants? Wrong suspect?
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Re: Gray areas
AFAIK, every one of these cases is about someone clearly and openly recording in plain sight of the officers. Someone recording covertly from a distance could be a different matter, legally. Only for the reason you say though, the privacy and confidentiality of non-police citizens.
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The Fascistas
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And a pig is a pig.there is no other way to look at it.
and it is high time for you pigs to realize we can film you and your brutality and now we don't have to talk about it because we have EYE WITNESS and we put it right up on the net for all of the world to see.
You Piggies can not hide behind your damn badges anymore.you want to be a policeman and serve the public or did you just want to be a stupid pig.
we will now know just what you are made of.
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awesome!
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btw
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I don't think the system itself is broken. Just some of the people in the system.
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Illinois - the same state where the Chicago Police Riots happened?
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Same state where there's a city where self-defense isn't considered a right. Chicago is extremely anti-gun, anti-sunshine(exposure like cameras), pro-crime, pro-corruption.
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