Carreon Admits His Original Threat Letter Was A Mistake, But Keeps On Digging Anyway

from the stop-digging,-charles dept

Fri, Jun 22nd 2012 7:07am — Mike Masnick

Another day, and still, Charles Carreon keeps digging. In case you just woke up from a coma, here are all the earlier posts on Carreon. The latest is both a bizarre semi-backtrack, as well as another case of him feverishly continuing to dig that Carreon Effect hole deeper and deeper.

The "backtrack" comes to us via Popehat, pointing us to an interview with Carreon in which he admits that the letter he sent to kick off this whole mess... was a mistake. Yes. You read that right:

Ironically, the threat of the first lawsuit [Funnyjunk suing Inman] never materialized. Carreon admits he was misinformed: Before demanding the $20,000, which was based on FunnyJunk's "estimate of advertising losses sustained due to the taint of being accused of engaging in willful copyright infringement," Carreon was told that all Oatmeal comics had been taken off the FunnyJunk site, even though they hadn't. "If I had known... no demand would have gone out," he says.

You would think that, upon realizing this -- that the entire premise of his letter which kicked off this entire thing was wrong -- he would think better off pursuing a separate strategy in response to the backlash for what he now admits was in error. But, no. Also, as Ken at Popehat points out, saying these things could be construed as "revealing a confidential attorney-client communication between himself and FunnyJunk in order to make himself look less ridiculous."

And then he continues to dig, dig, dig, dig dig.

You see, in another interview (dude gets around), this time with Ars Technica, Carreon trots out his latest bizarre theory of liability for Matthew Inman. In the lawsuit, he claimed that he thought Inman might keep everything raised above the target goal of $20,000, even though Inman never made any suggestion that was true, and in fact, Inman had said quite clearly (way before Carreon's rampage and lawsuit) that he was going to donate 100% of everything raised to charity. But Carreon says it doesn't matter:

“It sounds like he stands to make $180,000,” Carreon said. “He’s the authorized agent of IndieGoGo. I know this shit is hard to put together. That’s why we hire lawyers, because we read the statute and we take the risk.” (“Inman's commitment after the fact is not evidence of his original intention," Carreon clarified later by e-mail).

It should be noted, of course, that it does not appear that Carreon has "hired a lawyer" since he filed the case pro se (representing himself). The whole "authorized agent of IndieGogo" thing seems to be an astoundingly weak attempt to twist what IndieGoGo does and what Inman did to fit it under the California law on commercial fundraisers.

But, here's where Carreon goes really far out on a limb. On the very same post where Inman tells everyone that 100% of the money is going to charity, he also points out that he is going to add some other charities to the list. Nearly everyone thinks this is a really good thing. More money going to more charities. Awesome. But, no, not to Carreon. Apparently this is evidence of a nasty "bait & switch"

“Inman's idea to add two more charities is another act that shows the risk of money being raised for one purpose to be diverted to another. For example, I raise money for an Israeli charity to pay for trips to the Holy Land, but then decide that half the money should go to Palestinian orphans, or more disturbingly, to Hezbollah, which also has a charity wing. It's one more reason why IndieGoGo should not contract with agents like Inman who do not know that ‘adding charities’ to a campaign is obviously ‘bait and switch’ false advertising.”

Yeah, because everyone is just so sure that Inman's now going to add two charities that involve speeding up cancer causing agents and killing off bears to counter his original two charities.

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Filed Under: charity, charles carreon, matthew inman, streisand effect, the oatmeal
Companies: funnyjunk

69 Comments

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blaktron (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:10am

HAHAH He clearly broke privilege there. Incoming "Funnyjunk V Carreon" to close the loop.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:16am

What would my day look like without the daily Carreon Show? A lot less funny I suspect...
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Chas Carreon, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:17am

STOP DEFAMING ME!
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Malibu Cusser (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:17am

I like the adoption of the 'Carreon Effect' into everday parlance. It can easily be used in the context of someone who has created a huge spectacle, but wants everyone to ignore it, such as: 'Nothing to see here, Carre(y)-on!'
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:18am

He's starting to sound like Achmed, the dead terrorist...total state of denial.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:20am

He claims to have sent out this type of letter in the past, I really wish we could find the recipients of them.

He claimed to have been working for funnyjunk for 5-6 months, and in that time he never thought to check the claims?

Yay for breaking privilege to try and regain some credibility (?!) but he keeps going.

I await the arrival of his wife screaming something nonsensical about how we are all against him because of something other than him being a giant moron.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:22am

This is getting tiresome. It was "funny" at the start, but now it is just boring. Just stop giving Carreon "airtime", and this lawsuit will die rather quickly.

The dude is, quite obviously, just trying to get as much publicity as possible.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:24am

Re:
World-wide celebrity by stupidity. Many have tried and failed...but now...
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GMacGuffin (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:35am

Re:
Even with the weakness of the claims, it was a pretty standard C&D/Demand letter ... in 1999, to, e.g., a widget manufacturer who had posted actual defamatory claims against a competitor, and wasn't likely to post it online.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:35am

Ummm... what would be wrong with donating to Palestinian orphans?
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:37am

please make it stop he's already made a massive fool of himself. This is sad T_T. Please Mr carreon your not going to come out of this very well.

:(
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:39am

One of the charities is for killing off bears? If that's correct, and not a typo, I'd be pretty pissed too.
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ScytheNoire, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:40am

Definition of stupidity
Definition of stupidity: Knowing something is wrong, but continuing to do it anyways.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:40am

Re: Re:
I would be curious to see what else rose the to the level of needing a C&D letter with a demand for cash. Having seen the insane letter he sent Google after they delisted the buddha site thing, I'm pretty sure we could find a pattern.

People are slowly waking up to the fact that just because a lawyer says it doesn't make it true.
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Manabi (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:42am

Re:
He claimed to have been working for funnyjunk for 5-6 months, and in that time he never thought to check the claims?
He also didn't think to file the DMCA agent form until May 25th or so. (Not reading that article again to confirm.) So it took him 4-5 months to have the site properly comply with the DMCA. Quality lawyer there.
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varagix, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:42am

Re: Re:
Not true. Many have succeeded at this. Granted, it tends to be both unintentional and at the cost of their career. Like Jack Thompson for example.

Though you need to be careful; lawyers like them tend to be like Beetlegeuse or the Devil. Say their names and they will appear, and all that. Thankfully Thompson at least is disbarred, so the best he can do if he appears is to jump up and down throwing a fit like an enraged monkey.
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Manabi (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:43am

Re:
That was Mike pointing out it was highly unlikely that Inman would add additional charities that countered the goals of the original 2. It's rather unlikely there even is such a charity.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:44am

can someone please put us out of his misery? pretty please?
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Jayster, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:44am

One valid point
I personally think Carreon is an ass, and the only valid point he has made is the one about adding the additional charities. I like to know where my money is going, and Inman makes it clear that two charities are going to receive the money; however, when other charities are then added after the fund raising has already started, it is funneling money away from the charities that the original giver was supporting. I think that is called fraud.
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Manabi (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:45am

Re:
At least Achmed has the excuse that the bomb blast addled his brains before it killed him. ;)
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weneedhelp (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:51am

Re:
To Israelis and militant supporters of Israel, Palestinian's are animals not worth a thing, and need to be wiped from the planet. Nice huh?

And before the Jewish people pop out from the woodwork to call me an anti-Semite, I observed this first hand in Israel.
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WDS (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:52am

Missing the Point
What Carreon need to realize is that the appeal made by Inman was not "Help cure Cancer, and Help Save Bears", the appeal was "Help me tell Funnyjunk, 'Up Yours'".

The fact that he is now at over 1000% of that goal should give Carreon some clue that he isn't on the right side of this thing.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:55am

Re: One valid point
His goal was only to raise the $20,000 to be divided between the 2 charities.
I believe he got about 10 times that amount so far.
I'm not sure what other charities he had thought about donating the rest to, but his intention was to spread out the donations because he was surprised about the amount pouring in.
If there is an actual problem with him adding more, I am sure he will honor the original agreement to divide the amount raised between the 2 charities.
I think the bigger issue is there is only 1 donor, Carreon who only donated to get standing to have his hissy fit, has made any objection to there being additional charities added to share in the donations.
I think many people view the additional charities like a kickstarter project kicking in more benefits as the project surpasses the goal.
They have the list of donors, it shouldn't be difficult to see if anyone, besides Carreon, objects to their donation being "split".
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iamtheky (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:00am

Re: One valid point
I'm going to try and raise $20,000 and instead send it to the National Wildlife Federation and the American Cancer Society.

So as long as they get 10k a piece I believe he has fulfilled all statements on the fundraiser. And if he ends up donating any overage to any number of other admirable causes, I hardly see how that will be proven as fraudulent.
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Jayster, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:00am

Re: Missing the Point
I agree with that point. Funnyjunk can go to hell, but you cannot start a campaign and change the rules in the middle.

What's even worse is that I couldn't find what the other two charities were. For all I know, the money is going to Hezbollah, too.
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A Guy (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:06am

Exit Strategy
He should just donate a little to the fundraiser himself, apologize (jokingly) to his mother for getting her dragged into this, and, most importantly, show he can laugh at himself online by making a self deprecating statement about the whole mess.

That or he could just keep digging I guess. Either way, he will provide at least another week of entertainment, maybe more.
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techflaws (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:11am

Re: Re: Missing the Point
Right, cause that's the most likely option.
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Jayster, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:12am

Re: Re: One valid point
One other note: a lot of people have been asking what I plan to do with the extra money we raised over the initial $20,000. 100% of it is going to charity. I�m going to add 2 more charities to the list, in addition to the ACS and the NWF. - Inman

The update he wrote does say that the additional amount will go to 2 other charities as well. I just wish he would share the list of charities.
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Jayster, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:14am

Re: Re: Re: Missing the Point
LOL, no. It's just a worse case scenario.
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saulgoode (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:16am

Diversion of funds to alternative charities is something to be concerned about. Matthew Inman should ensure that the original two charities receive all donations up to the time the possibility of additional charities gets announced.
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DOlz, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:19am

Re: Re:
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-05-11/news/mn-2933_1_bear-hunt
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:19am

Re: Exit Strategy
He did donate, to give himself standing to sue.
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Jayster, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:20am

Re: Re: One valid point
Personally, I would have a problem giving to an unknown entity.

Apparently, Carreon is only using the addition to the charity list as a means to pursue Inman. He's an ass.
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milrtime83 (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:21am

At what point do you start to think he might just be doing most of this for the publicity?
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A Guy (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:23am

Re: Re: Exit Strategy
I guess I missed that one. Maybe the next comic should be Carreon taking drugs directly from child cancer patients.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:36am

Re: Re: Re: One valid point
No he is using the addition of other charities and the $20K cap to pursue.
Floating the idea that Inman will keep the other $180,000 raised beyond the original $20K
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Sneeje (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:37am

My prediction came true...
I would just like to point out that my prediction about something of equal or greater "face-palmage" rising to replace Righthaven has come true.
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izzitme101, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:37am

because it was very late in the last post on this topic.
Im gonna make a movie,
i will call it Carreon digging,
a comedy based on real events, i dont really think i would need to add any extra drama or comedy moments.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:43am

Re: Re: Re: Exit Strategy
It was one of the more funny things in the lawsuit filing, this charity thing is all wrong and illegal and evil and and I donated so I can bitch about it....
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drewdad (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:44am

Ah, narcisism...
...how empty our entertainment would be without ye.
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Nick (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:51am

I can technically see where he comes from, with this "bait and switch" argument, but...

There isn't a man alive in this WORLD that would prosecute someone that adds another charity to this (assuming a nice safe one like another cancer research, etc, and not a iffy depending-on-your-politics one like -for instance- palistinian aid) though.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:52am

This whole FuckingJunk case should have never happened.

http://imgur.com/e1GWE You mad bro?
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WDS (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:06am

Re: Re: Re: One valid point
The notice/update about adding the 2 additional charities was made 2 days after the campaign started, on the campaign site, so as long as the original 2 get all of the amount at that time, I don't see where there is room to complain.
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The Mighty Buzzard (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:13am

Re:
He actually does have a point about adding charities though. It's almost certainly illegal to split the money that has already been donated to the original two charities to charities that weren't on the list when people made the decision to donate.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that making a promise in exchange for money and later abandoning or modifying the promise is called fraud. Unless it involves a politician, of course.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:22am

Re: Re:
The stated goal of the fundraiser was to raise 20K for those two charities. Those two charities will receive 20K (more actually) so technically no bait and switch. They stated goal of the fundraising has not / will not change.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:22am

Re: Re: Missing the Point
I believe the rules haven't changed. Oatmeal: help me flip a bird at those jerks by raising their extortion amount and giving it to charity instead. Public: hellyeah!

If you think people are donating just so those two charities can get some funds, you have read a different farce than I.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:28am

Re: Re:
And before the Jewish people pop out from the woodwork to call me an anti-Semite, I observed this first hand in Israel.

Jim Morrison said it best..."people are strange."

You can be against the actions of the country of Israel or against the political actions of Israel and not be anti-Semite. I sat in a technical symposium once where a very well known (one of the letters in RSA) scientist who happened to be of Jewish descent sat next to a cryptography expert who happened to be of Palestinian descent, and the point that neither of them would be sitting next to each other if they were in Israel, talking as if they were best friends (they were,) and enjoying each other's company was not lost to the rest of the folks in the room. They were asked by someone how this is possible, and Adi responded (I am paraphrasing here since it was a while ago and don't remember his exact words) that it is far easier to think clearly the further away you get from Israel. People so close to a conflict can only think about the conflict.

Part of the process of justifying violence on another person is dehumanizing them. Once you dehumanize them, it is far easier to treat them with little respect. One of the ways to dehumanize someone is to treat them as though they are something they aren't...a ploy used quite regularly here at Techdirt by the trolls (we are all pirates, right?) Justifies the insanity.

Though I'd suggest that like every conflict, there are folks on both sides dehumanizing one another. The fight's been going on so long that the folks don't even remember what the fight was originally about.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:32am

Re: Definition of stupidity
Definition of stupidity: Knowing something is wrong, but continuing to do it anyways.

I thought that was the definition of insanity...though with a twist, "doing something over and over again and expecting different results."
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[citation needed or GTFO], 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:39am

This won't end for at least a week...
I think Carreon will keep digging until the fundraiser's over. Then he'll demand from each charity how much they received and if the total amount doesn't match how much was raised, he'll sue Inman for fraud.

...Or maybe he'll just keep rubbing his religious beliefs all over the internet with crappy poems and links to that poorly designed website his wife co-created all over the comment sections...
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The Mighty Buzzard (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:42am

Re: Re: Re:
The amount of the stated goal is irrelevant, only the stated destination of the money at the time it was donated is relevant. Saying donations after this point will be split among more charities is fine but diverting money that was donated prior to that point could land him in prison.

I'm not busting his chops for trying to do something nice but he should really get some legal advice before he writes any checks.
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Lurker Keith, 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: One valid point
Exactly. To comply w/ the stated update, all he has to do is give each charity $50,000+ (since he was around $118k or so at the time of the update, iirc, if the 2 days is correct)... & even if IndiGoGo does get 4%, he's already beyond the point where the 4% doesn't even affect the $50k split.

In fact, the fundraiser is now at $210,450, w/ yet another 2 or 3 days to go! (4% isn't even $9k)
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The Mighty Buzzard (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:49am

Re: Re:
And the Palestinians (and a comfortable majority of the entire middle east) say the exact same thing about Israel. Publicly and often. Anyone who could continually soak up that kind of hate without returning it in kind is far more tolerant and understanding than I'll ever be.
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Simple Mind (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:53am

Re:
Exactly. You don't change the rules after the game starts (especially when people's money is involved). Inman hasn't shown to be the brightest bulb in all this mess, either. Just Carreon's idiocy dwarfs everything else.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 9:57am

Fun with Alliteration
I want to see the additional charities be the ASPCA and Boys Town. Imagine the fun that can be had with him opposing those two charities, then he actually toes the line of being a puppy punter and orphan oppressor, as well as the current two showing him as potentially being a cancer celebrator and wildlife whacker. Any other good charities to add, to see him rally against?
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 10:04am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Missing the Point
'It's just a worse case scenario."

No, it's you assuming it's a worst case scenario.
And, you know what happens when you assume, boy...
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 10:40am

Re:
The fundamental claim that he made publicly when asking for money was that he wanted people to give him money so that he could raise the $20,000 that Carreon demanded and donate it to charity. He initially named two charities as recipients, and it is probably better PR to give at least the original $20k to them, but the basic request he made, which is what the case should turn on, was "Give me money so I can donate it to charity to make a point." He didn't say "Give the American Cancer Society money through me" or "Give the BearLove Foundation money through me."
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PaulT (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 11:14am

The last point is very mystifying, but even it were true, would donators be able to request a refund? The nature of the contract has changed after the donation has been made, so what would IndieGoGo's policy be in situations where people find the new terms unacceptable (I assume they'd be liable somewhat since they apparently allow projects to be altered after they start raising funds).

Oh well, silver linings and all. The longer this idiocy continues, the more free advertising IndieGoGo gets and the more people realise that Kickstarter is not unique or a monopoly in the indie crowdfunding space. This can't be anything other than a good thing IMHO.
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ChimpObama McBinLadenBurton, 22 Jun 2012 @ 11:48am

Palestinian Orphans can suck it according to Carrion
Carrion says:
"For example, I raise money for an Israeli charity to pay for trips to the Holy Land, but then decide that half the money should go to Palestinian orphans, or more disturbingly, to Hezbollah, which also has a charity wing"

More disturbingly?

So you're saying that it's disturbing to offer support to the innocent orphans of religious violence?

Yeah, fuck all those Palestinian children who lost their parents to Israeli tanks. They aren't the chosen ones, so they can fend for themselves. Better to raise money so that pro-jewish Americans can afford plane fare to Israel.

You suck dude. Really really suck.

COMBB
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 11:58am

Maybe it's just me, but I think Carreon might be a liiittle bit obsessed at this point. Just slightly.
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saulgoode (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 12:18pm

Re: Re:
Mr Inman's statement (on Indiegogo was "I'm going to try and raise $20,000 and instead send it to the National Wildlife Federation and the American Cancer Society."

Anybody who donated money based on that statement is justified in expecting their donation to indeed be sent to the NWF and ACS. Full stop. Whether their donation took the total collection from $1 to $2, from $19999 to $20000, or $180000 to $180001 does not change the purpose for which the donation was solicited.

If Mr Inman wishes to declare (at some point) that any further donations may be directed elsewhere, that is his prerogative; nonetheless, all donations accrued before that point must be distributed per the agreement at the time they were solicited.
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That One Guy (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 1:28pm

Re: Re: Re:
No in this case it's 'say his name and his wife appears'.
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Lurker Keith, 22 Jun 2012 @ 3:43pm

20 min. Tek Syndicate video
I've never ran into Tek Syndicate before, but they have a 20 min. video up covering Carreon's insanity. The video was made before the fundrasier broke $190k.

http://teksyndicate.com/videos/tek-charles-carreon-vs-internet-suing-oatmeal-indiegogo-nwf -acs

They do quote Techdirt.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:50pm

Re:
>He's starting to sound like Achmed, the dead terrorist...total state of denial.

If so, I think he needs to bring his daughter to "Bring Your Child to Work Day".
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Deselect, 22 Jun 2012 @ 11:03pm

Not like Carreon would sue for dinosaurs right?
http://charles-carreon.com
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[kb] (profile), 23 Jun 2012 @ 11:22am

Re: One valid point
I also thought about this, and I'm sure Inman has by now as well. If I were him, I'd divide the money between the two charities, and make a *request* to them that they in turn donate a portion to other charities (at their discretion) in his name.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Jun 2012 @ 6:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: One valid point
Since when do charities stop collecting money when the charity thermometer over flows?

My goal is to make X dollars. If I make 10X dollars do I stop collecting money and return 9X dollars just because what I am doing is more popular than I knew. I don't think so.
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weneedhelp (profile), 25 Jun 2012 @ 11:57am

Re: Re: Re:
"You can be against the actions of the country of Israel or against the political actions of Israel and not be anti-Semite."

When you say anything bad against Israel the first thing thrown at you is you are an anti-Semite.

Just like when pointing out contradictions and lies of the Obama campaign, I was a racist.

Just covering bases.
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Lurker Keith, 26 Jun 2012 @ 9:39am

Final fundraising total
Inman's final total is $220,024.
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Lurker Keith, 27 Jun 2012 @ 3:47pm

more links: Charles Carreon ammends his complaint
Popehat: Update: Charles Carreon Files First Amended Complaint
(the comments are disecting it)

Lowering the Bar: Carreon Complaint Amended, Still Odd

Plus The Ammended Complaint it self, via Lowering the Bar, courtesy of Popehat
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