Law Enforcement Looking To Create A Searchable Database Of Everywhere Your Vehicle Has Been
from the oh-wow...-a-Google-with-even-LESS-privacy dept
Back in August, Mike wrote about some questionable sharing of license plate information between the US Border Patrol and various insurance companies. While the stated aim of tracking stolen vehicles might seem to make this sharing justified, the fact that this is going on with no oversight or accountability is cause for alarm.Of course, law enforcement has long had big plans for license plate readers (LPRs). The ACLU has come across a recording of a 2010 National Institute of Justice conference in which one of the speakers expresses an interest in building LPR data into a "Google" of license plate locations.
Dale Stockton, Program Manager of the “Road Runner” project at the Automated Regional Justice Information System in San Diego spoke on a panel on license readers at the 2010 conference and explained to police and prosecutors in attendance how best to share license plate data. Mind you, he was talking about the location information of people never accused of any crime.Stockton knows this would never fly if attempted directly. He states as much in the transcript:
We're probably not going to have any centralized national giant bucket of license plate reader data. It probably wouldn't stand the court of public opinion, and it's probably something that, given where we are in the rollout cycle, wouldn't easily be done, but we can develop regional sharing capability...But the "court of public opinion" can be routed around, according to Stockton. Despite frankly stating that the public would find a "Google of license plates" odious, he intends to do just that, through a series of back doors.
And so doing, you get those set up and then begin to share between those regions, and as you begin to look beyond your region, utilize a trusted broker like Nlets...If Stockton has his way, a decentralized search system for license plates, routed through a third-party's software, will perform exactly the way he wants it to. Somehow he feels that a distributed system is OK while a centralized system isn't. Or rather, he feels that both systems are OK, but the public will only put up with the illusion that law enforcement isn't running a Google-esque system of harvested plate data.
Every law enforcement agency has a connection to Nlets. Nlets would serve not as a storage unit but as a pointer system, something akin to a Google, so that when you check a plate, Nlets would point you in the direction of where that plate can be found, and the result of that would be a query in one state by an investigator could give an indication of plates of interest in other states, and then that information can be pulled back.
Is the fear of a system like this overblown? Every law enforcement official at the conference runs down several anecdotes about how the plate reading system has aided them in investigating various crimes. But should law enforcement have access to nationwide plate data, much of which pertains to citizens who have never been accused of a crime, much less committed one? Stockton tries to justify the LPR system by comparing it to officers running plates in person.
One of the questions about license plate readers is this kind of hocus pocus, "you are invading my privacy; it's super intrusive." And I come from the opposite end of the spectrum. I truly believe that this technology is only doing what license plate readers have already — I'm sorry — what officers have already been doing in the field for many, many years.The biggest difference here is the "always on" aspect and the fact that everyone is tracked. "Reasonable suspicion" and the like are taken completely off the table and replaced with an indiscriminate system that harvests data. It's a handy way to peel back another layer of privacy, as Kade Crockford of the ACLU states:
The courts have indicated to us that officers can look at a plate and run it. So let's just go down quickly here through the two sides, an officer doing it and the license plate reader doing it. Officers can run plates anytime they want. The courts have held that's why we put the state plate on there, so an officer can check and make sure it's current and it's not wanted. Well, the license plate reader is doing the exact same thing. It's looking at it; it's checking that plate to see if it's wanted. The officer can pick and choose among the vehicles that he or she looks at.
We've been making a lot of noise about location tracking of late. License plate readers rank high among the technologies that are threatening our privacy with respect to our travel patterns. Where we go says a lot about who we are, and law enforcement agencies nationwide are increasingly obtaining detailed information about where we go without any judicial oversight or reason to believe we are up to no good. Stockton says we have nothing to worry about with respect to license plate reader data and privacy, that that's all "hocus pocus." But he's wrong.As Crockford points out, the Department of Justice has already stated that Americans have "no privacy interest" when it comes to cellphone location information. The DOJ's rationale could easily stretch to fit this scenario. But what's "good" for the American public is rarely viewed as acceptable for those writing the guidelines or using the technology. For all the talk about "nothing to hide," officials are very touchy when it comes to making their information accessible.
We must ensure license plate readers do not become license plate trackers.
Data from license plate readers in Minnesota was obtained by a St. Paul car dealer using open-records laws, and used to repossess at least one car, according to a recent article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune. The article included this amusing tidbit:So, the question that needs to be asked of every politician and law enforcement member who feels this system will only be used for catching "bad guys" is whether or not they'd mind having their location tracked via license plate readers. Stockton's pushing for something he knows the public won't stand for and is using successful investigations as the ends to justify the privacy-violating means.
"When the Star Tribune published data tracking Mayor R.T. Rybak's city-owned car over the past year, the mayor asked police Chief Tim Dolan to make a recommendation for a new policy about data retention."
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Filed Under: 4th amendment, database, law enforcement, license plates, privacy
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Nice timing :)
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Re: More replies than here, and actual discussion too.
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Could be that most who come here are lurkers.*shrugs*
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Re: Re: More replies than here, and actual discussion too.
Since when?
You never have been lucid. Ever.
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Re: Re: More replies than here, and actual discussion too.
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Re: Re: More replies than here, and actual discussion too.
People get tired of reading (and replying to) your (and others like yours), frequently off topic (how does your comment here relate to the topic of this post?), often illogical and poorly supported arguments and innuendo for comments.
Please understand that I enjoy, and will participate in, a good on point debate in the comments of any post that I find interesting, but the regular bashing (with no point or proof) gets really old, really fast!
Besides, I would rather visit a site with a few well thought out and reasoned opinions and arguments than a site filled with the ravings of a people hell bent on making an ass out of themselves. I highly value differing opinions and debate, but only those that remain on-topic, with logical well thought out positions and not those of a ranting lunatic.
Perhaps Google rates this site higher because of the content and number of hits, not because of the number of commentors.
I will take quality over quantity any day of the week. If I wanted quantity over quality I would goto reddit.
out_of_the_blue, I have read MANY of your comments, and if you are counting yourself as a "lucid critic" I must very candidly disagree! While I may (or may not) disagree with the articles written here, I have found them most always well thought out and usually with some supporting references.
On the other hand I frequently read your comments and come away with one thing. You hate Mike, not that you have any knowledge of the topic at hand, not that you even bother to read and comprehend the article. Just you hate Mike, and you hate anyone who thinks the pendulum may have swung too far in favor of the copyright holder. I don't think I have ever seen you support any of your positions or statements with sources, but I have frequently noticed that you have claimed things that are factually false (regardless of the position you take).
Perhaps, you would be happier at reddit, they do seem to match your demeanor much more closely than Tech Dirt does.
Just a thought, but certainly not from a "rabid regular".
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You shouldn't talk about yourself in such a way. I am sure your mommy loves you.
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But if it's Google tracking you on the web, that's just cool!
If you're not alarmed at this point, just take Dick_Helmet's advice: 3 screens of sports, kill the rest of your awareness with alcohol and drugs, and spew vulgarisms at anyone who tries to stir you from that stupor.
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Re: But if it's Google tracking you on the web, that's just cool!
Also, uh, 3 screens of sports? You don't know geeks too well, do you?
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Re: Re: But if it's Google tracking you on the web, that's just cool!
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Re: But if it's Google tracking you on the web, that's just cool!
Then I saw your bit about alcohol and drugs? What the heck is wrong with either of those? Also, you are aware that someone can consume both and NOT kill their awareness at all, right? In fact, I know a number of people personally who are beyond decent, respectable and functioning people with very demanding jobs and who in their off time enjoy a good party. All of whom seem to have more awareness and display higher levels of it and intelligence than you do.
Also, spewing vulgarisms on here, is something done more often by people on your side of the aisle. And, if you didn't write such blatantly stupid and non-factually based comments, you wouldn't have people aiming vulgarities at you on a regular basis.
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Re: But if it's Google tracking you on the web, that's just cool!
If you can post repetitive garbage, so can I
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I don't like it but it is probably legal
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Re: I don't like it but it is probably legal
In the GPS case, attaching the actual tracker to the vehicle wasn't the issue, tracking the suspect over a duration of time was. So by the same reasoning, creating a historical database of a vehicle's travels without a warrant should not be allowed.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Oct 24th, 2012 @ 7:37am
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Not over yet
Dont worry, the DHS has it all laid out for you and the funding to boot.
Its all thanks to 911. But but but terrorists.
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Re: Not over yet
Ummm... too late.
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Linking a license plate to an individual is still locked up.
This article seems a bit "FoxNewsy", in my opinion.
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Some good points raised here . By the way one of the more famous brothel in Edinburgh was in a desirable area, and with many flats in the building above it.
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It's posts like these
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Re: It's posts like these
Using the report button based upon name, and not content, really doesn't make you any better than the people you're giving the pink treatment to, and I'll try and explain why.
First of all, at times the 'big three' can actually come up with decent comments, it's not always rot. AJ for example, when he refrains from trollish behavior can bring up some good points, backed up by outside links and sources. You may or may not agree with what he's saying at the time, but it's better to at least debate him when he's looking for a debate, and only use the report button when it's obvious an intelligent conversation is the last thing he's looking for.
I'm not saying they do it most of the time, or even often, but it does happen occasionally, and it should be encouraged when it does.
Also, there's a difference between a somewhat clueless post, which should not get the pink treatment, and instead should be responded to with a well reasoned counter-argument(or just ignored), versus a post obviously intended to troll and/or derail any constructive debate, which should get the pink treatment(and ignored), as it's intent is anything but constructive.
Now, to be clear, with regards to these past two points, if you try and respond reasonably, and it gets you nowhere, or nothing but insults, then you can feel free to go nuts on the pinken-ing, and start 'reporting' to your heart's content.
I suppose the point I'm trying to get across is, one should always try and at least start from a civil and polite position, and at least be willing to concede that the other side may very well have a good idea, or might be right where you are wrong, otherwise... well, otherwise what's the difference from how you're acting, versus how the trolls are?
Or, to put it very simply: When the trolls have gotten you to start acting like them, at that point they've won.
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Re: Re: It's posts like these
As much as I have wanted to I have never given anyone the 'pink treatment'. Instead I frequently take the time to either debunk the statements or confront the blatant personal attack / trolling.
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I enjoy the usual low-stakes random sassing and jibes amid the intelligent and serious stuff. By random, I mean by all different people, in highly diverse directions. But this ootb/aj war is getting tiresome.
Even in 1986 I knew a guy who loved to trash newsgroups by flame wars, instead of getting on with his PhD.
What can we do about this guy without taking up too much energy? For every ten that don't bother replying and rebuking, one does, and that makes hundreds!
How can you crowdsource an effective squelch? Or how can you crowdsource silence?
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That gives me an idea...
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Tracking public vehicles should be legal
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Total surveillance: check!
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Have you seen the show Person of Interest?
Be afraid, be very afraid.
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Funny that.
Back then, they were sorry they got caught.
Trying by the back door like that, I really wonder how much of an idiot the population is. No, wait.. damn. If only we were educated.
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This is just a natural expansion of the current tracking...
The same is true if you use a debit card or credit card, or even store discount cards. Information about where you were at a given time, what you bought... is all stored and easily available to large numbers of companies and yes, even the government.
You can also be easily tracked by your phone, the phone companies are way to eager to share such information with the government or anyone else.
People have been giving away their privacy for years. Actually, they are trading it for convenience. No one really knew that is what they were doing at the time, but there you are.
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Re: This is just a natural expansion of the current tracking...
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"Really? Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? Prove it."
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But a perpetual Database prompts other concerns. Like foursquare being used to figure out when you are away from your home so you can case a robbery without sitting outside the home.
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The scanner runs everyone's plates. The cop only runs plates when he finds one suspicious. He's not going to run everyone's plates because it's simply not cost effective.
Same thing with GPS tracking. The high cost of tracking individuals with actual police officers served as a pseudo check on abuse.
However, I agree that all government databases collecting information like this should be accessible to the public. Maybe then the public would understand why such databases are detrimental to our way of life.
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The cop runs a plate, and either it is "of immediate interest" or not. If not the data (where that plate was when the cop ran it) is discarded probably pretty much immediately, but almost definitely it is not stored in a database.
The entire point of the scanner is to create the database and not to find a car "of immediate interest" because the scanner can't really do anything about that "immediate" interest.
I am strongly against the idea of a database of locations of cars, and I agree that it is a large invasion of privacy and I feel it is unconstitutional.
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We must stop allowing the government/law enforcement agencies to keep broadening its authority without our approval.
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I would say the same thing about private companies. I don't want my data collected by them, either, unless I give permission. And make it clear to me how the data is collected, what is done with it, and how I can avoid having it collected. Better yet, give me tools that work without collecting data.
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The problem with private entities data-mining is that they can pretty much do whatever they want with it after the fact. They can turn around and hand it over to the authorities, who will likely use that data for profiling, or they can sell it to a third-party, profiting at your expense.
If you've ever seen those Progressive commercials for their 'Snapshot' program, you know that it's essentially like inviting (installing?) big brother into your motor vehicle. Oh, and from what I've read it drains your car battery like water. Bonus!
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Can be outsmarted and rendered useless
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Re: Can be outsmarted and rendered useless
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bs
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Ethics
My problem with this isn't so much the technology, but the attitude of the government officials. If you're a government official and you know from the get-go that the people you're supposedly there to serve don't want you to do something, isn't the proper response not to do it? It's certainly not to brainstorm ways to hide it from the citizens or trick them into accepting it.
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That is the real issue here. That is what needed to be fixed a long time ago. They should have needed reasonable suspicion that a crime was being committed to even be able to run the plate in the first place.
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An automated system allows logging of 100% (ok realistically probably 98 - 99% of all vehicles plates, as well as exact time, direction of travel, speed, car color, probably model too and perhaps a photo of the driver. All of this could be logged potentially for your lifetime or longer.
So it is really a matter of scale. There is a huge difference between a cop running a plate on a car and 'logging' all travel on a given roadway.
The good old USA, where you don't need papers to travel, because we already know where you are, where you are going and where you have been. From cradle to grave, we've got you covered.
8^|
O "Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?" [Hal]
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Yup. Mobile is an amazing thing the way it can keep track of who you are, where you are, who your friends are, what you buy, what you view, etc.
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...from that day forward everywhere I went, I was run-ning.
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This reflects my viewpoint
I just read this a few minutes ago.
Travis Shrugged: The creepy, dangerous ideology behind Silicon Valley’s Cult of Disruption | PandoDaily: "Given their Randian origins, we kid ourselves if we think most Disruptive businesses are fighting government bureaucracy to bring us a better deal. A Disruptive company might very well succeed in exposing government crooks lining their pockets exploiting outdated laws, but that’s only so the Disruptor can line his own pockets through the absence of those same laws."
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tracking citizens
Just one more reason that we need a revolution and replacement of a government that is turning the US in to a late edition of an Orwellian nightmare.
People like the guy advocating such crap need to be re-programmed to understand the humans he is working against
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The answer to Nineteen Eighty-Four is 1776!
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Enter your zip code here
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Just walked by 2 cops
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