US Still 'Warning' Antigua That It Better Not Set Up Piracy Hub, Even As WTO Gives Approval
from the more-sword-waving dept
This is hardly a surprise given the decade-long history we've gone through concerning the US's attempts to screw over Antigua by violating a trade agreement, and then ignoring, repeatedly, efforts by the WTO to make things right. Given that the WTO gave initial permission for Antigua to set up shop infringing on US intellectual property all the way back in 2007, it appears that Antigua has been nothing but patient. However, last week, it finally started making moves to put this "store" in place.In response, the US has gone typically ballistic, threatening all sorts of consequences and blaming Antigua for the problems:
The United States warned Antigua and Barbuda on Monday not to retaliate against U.S. restrictions on Internet gambling by suspending American copyrights or patents, a move it said would authorize the "theft" of intellectual property like movies and music.Of course, what the US claims isn't supported by, well, anyone else. The WTO has now officially signed off (yet again) on the plan. Apparently the 2007 permission was merely "preliminary," but now it's official. The WTO says this is a perfectly legitimate way for Antigua to hit back at the US for its flagrant violation of international trade agreements in trying to shut down Antigua based online gambling sites.
"The United States has urged Antigua to consider solutions that would benefit its broader economy. However, Antigua has repeatedly stymied these negotiations with certain unrealistic demands," said Nkenge Harmon, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Trade Representative's office.
As for Antigua's response to the US threats, the country's legal representative Mark Mendel told Wired (the link above) a bunch of things (go read the whole article), but I think this sums up the key points:
"I do think that the US has a mixed, immature and difficult domestic situation with respect to gambling in general and remote gambling in particular," Mendel told Wired.co.uk. "However, I think the main reason the US has not complied with the WTO rulings is that Antigua is such a small country they think they can get away with it. I also think that, unfortunately, some people in the US government were almost offended that Antigua chose to challenge the US and have been so persistent in its pursuit of justice that the US government has adopted unusually harsh and unyielding lines that have made it difficult to consider our issue in its proper context."Sounds about right.
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They did....
They had online gambling and had well over 2000 people employed in it, but thanks to the United States' meddling, that number is now under 500.
And, unrealistic demands? What unrealistic demands? It's not like they're asking for toilets made out of solid gold, are they?
Then again, maybe they should ask for wrenches, hammers and toilet seats.
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Re: They did....
fixed
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You know ...
$500 for a wrench
$800 for a hammer
$20,000 for a toilet seat.
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Re: Re: Re: They did....
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All in....
Damn, they called me on it
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There is also a US freak out "Antigua, power level 9,000" joke in here somewhere. I just can not pull that one together.
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"I am altering the deal. pray I don't alter it any further"
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Replace a few words and that would sum up many overreactions by the US Government. Whether you're a digital activist, disruptive entreprenuer, or a small country, the US certainly has a 'might is right' mindset.
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It's how the folks in charge got to office, so it's how they run their offices.
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Yeah, considering the whole six-strikes system is being put in place due to 'suggestions' from the entertainment industry and their employees, I'm betting this site will top the list of 'sites that will get you a hit on the six-strikes plan'. Even just visiting it will probably be enough to trigger an accusation sent to the account holder.
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or it could be a microtransaction site, where you're paying a la cart, but i'm betting streamed, rather than giving you the content.
Either way, i'm sure that US Ip addy's would be filtered, so you'd need a proxy, plus since it probably wouldn't be using open torrents, 6 strikes wouldn't really adress it at all. (obviously there's a lot of speculation there, just going by what's been said so far, and the fact that they'd want to monetize this + some common sense).
Assuming they don't fuck it up completely by going for a cash grab.
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Hell, go one further, and add in The Pirate Bay for added lulz.
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That's not a legal question, because the six strikes plan is a ToS deal, not law.
Anyway, to answer your question: No.
BusinessWeek addressed the legal issue in their article:
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2013-01-28/antigua-gets-ok-to-become-copyright-haven
" Antiguans may be allowed to download freely, but for those outside the country the legal regime remains murky."
In other words, it's legal for US citizens to buy from this site unless a judge rules otherwise. So if you're "caught," the penalty will currently be absolutely nothing.
And how would they legally catch you? Purchases from a website are not public torrent swarms.
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In other words the selling, purchasing, downloading, or otherwise of these works is NOT piracy is NOT illegal or unlawful and is NOT punishable in any court system or country that is a member state of the WTO.
For any court or authority in any of these member states to punish or declare unlawful/illegal for there own citizens any of the above would immediately be a breach of the binding WTO agreements, which would result in further sanctions against the country that did this.
Can we all please stop calling this Piracy. when in fact it is purely authorised and legal for these works to be sold/obtained in this way.
Interestingly the copyright holders might have an actionable claim on the United States Government though I can see the USG claiming sovereign immunity on that.
If this effects the 'six strike' system then the first place anyone should go is to a court AND NOT the arbitration hearing and counter sue the ISP for both alleging illegal/unlawful acts on something that is absolutely legal.
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You know, one of those nukes the US has wanted to test out for years and hasn't had a chance, but can't wait for Iran to start a nuclear "event"..............
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in your eye, sauron ! ! !
a little hobbit-nation may still take you down, and wouldn't that be glorious...
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
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We don't need them. Artists can get incentives to fund their works through refundable crowdfunding, plus whatever the free market reckons an artist is worth (people will naturally pay more if it provides more of an innovative incentive, even if the artist ends up filthy rich - we see how that is the situation already).
Once people start funding creativity like this, and once copyright is abandoned, China has nothing to profit from. You heard it correctly: copyright causes piracy, especially overseas piracy and makes morons like Kim Dotcom a modern day Al Capone.
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They wanted to continue running their existing online gambling operations which were employing a lot of people and generating revenue for them.
This interfered with the 'mob owned' casinos that operate in the US, and was deemed 'felony interference with our business model' thus producing laws that made online gambling 'illegal', eliminating one source of competition for the US owned casinos (which I'm sure contribute much more to US politicians than those based in Antigua....)
I messed with online gambling years ago (before the ban), and always assumed that the games/odds were rigged, but even rigged games have to pay out once in a while or the site would get such a bad rep that nobody would use it. Was it a coincidence that I would usually get a big 'win' just as I was about to lose my online bankroll? Probably, but I cashed out enough times to make money off them rather than lose it by using this against them (in tracking things for a month, I won 18 of the 20 bets that would have wiped me out and required me to add more funds or stop playing.... sure it was just a coincidence).
If fools want to be parted from their money by 'gambling', I say let them, and if they choose to do so online rather than in a dark smoky room with no outside light and no clocks, I say let them...
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Hang on, hang on here, The USA government is the victim here!!!
Since the USA government is the victim here, the rule of higher law should take precedence over anything else.
But then again maybe we should use the even higher law of Canadia!!
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Re: Hang on, hang on here, The USA government is the victim here!!!
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Re: Re: Hang on, hang on here, The USA government is the victim here!!!
Too many damn acronyms
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And because I am that cynical, I can imagine the anti-war Left suddenly U-turning and justifying a strike against Antigua in the name of "stopping stealing". Or perhaps they will end up buying some other questionable cause being spewed out left right and centre. It can happen. The Left were quite silent when Bill Clinton unjustly rocketed the only pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, and quite a few portions of the Left supported the Vietnam war. According to the Left, calling Bill Clinton a war criminal was being an extremist, a crazy Right-winger or just not seeing the so-called "qualities" of Clinton.
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On the other, invading two countries, one on totally made-up 'evidence' and causing untold deaths and misery, and monumentally cocking up both of those wars as badly as the afore-mentioned Vietnam. Plus invading some other sovereign nations in previous administrations just for the fun of it.
Remind me, which is worse for sheer nastiness, Right or Left?
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Cue invasion in 3, 2, 1...
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Pirates of the Caribbean V: Antigua's certain unrealistic demands
*Grabs some Popcorn*
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I rack the severs, I share the files.
I do it all for joy.
For every boy, there is a girl.
For Dodd there is a boy!
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US democracy
George Washington
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Re: US democracy
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An interesting thought.
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Re: An interesting thought.
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Re: An interesting thought.
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what would be effects of withdrawing from WTO?
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Gaming is federal and state: no outsiders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act
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Re: Gaming is federal and state: no outsiders
No, there are plenty of casinos and horse tracks that are not government owned. As far as I know none of them are government owned.
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But, when the WTO rules against the U.S. Government, the Federal Government acts like no decision was issued and thinks that they can simply ignore the WTO.
Here's an idea for the U.S. Government, accept the WTO decision.
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1 down, 50 more to go.
That's fine until some DA in Memphis decides to start extraditing people. That's the really clueless part about Antigua's position in all of this. They seem to acknowledge the Puritanical aspects of the US in this regard but only partially.
We have our own internal disputes about what is acceptable. Never mind some pissant island in the Carribean.
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Re: 1 down, 50 more to go.
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Prep the cyber-terror attacks on Antigua
1. Cyber-terror against Antigua
2. Slips in anti-Antigua language into secret trade agreements with other countries
3. Sends the CIA into Antigua to take out select targets (human, infrastructure...)
4. Manipulates ICANN to shut down the DNS of Antigua originating IP blocks somehow
5. Use Antigua as new material written by Chris Dodd as to further proof that piracy is illegal, harms American artists and deserves U.N. sanctions...
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Back to basics I suppose
Internet "piracy" is now turning into "internet privateering" in Antigua.
I guess this gives the phrase 'Pirates of the Caribbean' a whole new meaning huh?
What will the US do now?
As the Zen Master says, "We'll see."
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This is a similar to an earlier situation from the late 50's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared_(film)
;-)
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Maybe China...
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Well, take a painful bite back uncle Sam.
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since when did it stop at Antigua? just about every country on the planet, in particular the smaller ones that have almost a zilch chance of defending themselves, have suffered from the bullying of the USA. it needs to stop! the interests of the US are not more important than the interests of anywhere else!
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Soon..
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History repeating itself...
... Again?
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"Our way or the highway."
Even when vetod in the UN, the US still gathered its laughable coalition of the willing and went to war. Everyone has to do what the US says, and the US doesn't have to do anything that anyone says. Old news.
I'm just waiting for someone, somewhere to grow a pair and say "With all due respect, mr President, I think we'll try the highway." Preferably they should record said conversation, threats and all, and release it to the media at the same time.
Honestly, the US owes everyone money, produces little to nothing of anything, and keeps shooting in all directions. If just HALF of the world's nations set up trade blockades against the US, the country would be in the stone ages within months. I don't understand why countries keep obeying a country that's quickly becoming morally, legally and financially bankrupt.
Forgive me for going all Reagan but maybe it's time to "Just Say No!"
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Don't forget the overhead using Hollywood Accounting
First Antigua would have to set up a store to sell US copyrighted property. Then Antigua would need to set up various government agencies that bill "fees" to the store, thus causing the store not to be profitable.
Those stores might have to sell Billions and Billions of dollars worth of US IP before they become profitable enough to recoup the WTO award of $21 Million. I mean Star Wars still isn't profitable.
The US might object, but under Hollywood Accounting rules, this is acceptable practice.
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Antigua's economy
It'll certainly be interesting to see how this move does affect Antigua's economy. We might finally have a good test case for "do copyrights actually help the overall economy or not ?".
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Re: Small country
By way of analogy, the US has prohibited a product citing safety standards. Antigua wanted to market an unsafe product to US citizens and has instead gained an authorization to steal from US citizens.
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Even if that's true, which I doubt (difficult yes, but with so much money at stake I'm sure a solution could be found), I don't think that's the real reason for the ban.
Antigua wanted to market an unsafe product to US citizens and has instead gained an authorization to steal from US citizens.
Except that stealing is a poor analogy for copyright infringement, and you have also presented no evidence that Antiguan gambling sites are fraudulent. I don't see why an analogy is necessary anyway; this isn't that complicated.
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"Except that stealing is a poor analogy for copyright infringement,"
Stealing is a very good analogy for copyright infringement. If you are trying to make and sell content (for example, some webcomic artists collect their works into books for sale) and someone just photocopies the work and distributes it far and wide himself so that you don't get paid, the proceeds that you have made have been stolen from you.
"I don't see why an analogy is necessary anyway; this isn't that complicated."
It is complicated enough that people are failing to see that there might be a reason other than "barrier to trade." And people seem to understand physical products a little better.
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Today, no. It would be possible to establish systems for ensuring legitimacy.
someone just photocopies the work and distributes it far and wide himself so that you don't get paid, the proceeds that you have made have been stolen from you.
What it is, exactly, that you had before this event that you do not have after? Money? No - you're talking about money you might have made but now didn't*. Things? No - the other person didn't take any things away, he made copies. So what is it that's been stolen?
* if you run a pizza place and someone opens another pizza place across the street, there is money that you might have made that now you won't because of the competition - did he steal from you?
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This is in the same sense of if you work for a company and the company decides that you have to keep working there for several years but there will be no paychecks coming. You didn't already have that money, so they didn't steal from you, right? Wrong, they stole your efforts. The difference in a competing pizza parlor is that the other pizza parlor could be open and run even if you hadn't put any effort into your own. When somebody makes a copy of your authorship, he is not expending a separate effort. He is making his money off of your effort and causing you to derive no benefit.
If the competing pizza parlor worked by somehow canning and making copies of your pizzas out of thin air (so that he didn't have to put his own effort into it) then it would be stealing. The reason a competing pizza parlor is not stealing is that he is making his own pizzas; he's is not taking your efforts.
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If they refuse to pay you for work you have already done, yes, they're essentially stealing money that they owe you. If they inform you that you will not be getting paid in the future, then obviously nothing has been stolen. It's possible that could be a breach of contract, but that isn't theft.
If the competing pizza parlor worked by somehow canning and making copies of your pizzas out of thin air (so that he didn't have to put his own effort into it) then it would be stealing.
I think I need to see your definition of "steal", because that doesn't sound like any definition I'm familiar with. You're saying if I invent (or buy) a Star Trek style replicator, buy one of your pizzas, and set up shop across the street selling replicated pizzas, that I'm stealing pizza from you? Or is it money I'm stealing? Either way, that just doesn't make any sense, because I'm not taking anything away from you that you own.
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Forgot to mention - I should have been explicit here. I believe the government's ulterior motive is to protect state lotteries and campaign contributors (casinos, horse tracks) from competition. This motive applies equally to domestic and foreign sources of competition.
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