DOJ Admits It Had To Put Aaron Swartz In Jail To Save Face Over The Arrest
from the it's-all-about-the-public-perception dept
As the Congressional investigation into the DOJ's prosecution of Aaron Swartz has continued, apparently a DOJ representative has admitted that part of the reason it insisted on having Swartz plead guilty to a felony and go to jail, no matter what, was that it feared the public backlash for the original arrest if they couldn't then show a felony conviction and jailtime. According to a Huffington Post article, quoting various sources:Some congressional staffers left the briefing with the impression that prosecutors believed they needed to convict Swartz of a felony that would put him in jail for a short sentence in order to justify bringing the charges in the first place, according to two aides with knowledge of the briefing.The odd thing is this little tidbit comes at the very, very end of a longer article, most of which focuses on the DOJ telling Congressional staffers that part of the reason they went after Swartz with such zeal was because of his infamous Guerilla Open Access Manifesto. That might explain why they were so eager to arrest him, but it seems like the much bigger deal, considering all the concern about prosecutor discretion, that after they arrested him, they then didn't want to look bad, which is why they continued to demand jailtime and felony convictions.
Many people have assumed all along that the Manifesto played a big role in the case -- and the Manifesto has certainly been a lightening rod concerning Swartz's activities. If you read the actual "manifesto" it's not quite as extreme as some make it out to be -- with much of it talking about taking stuff that is public domain, but still hidden behind walls, and making that available again. The controversial bit really is this paragraph, which starts out with legal activities, but gets much more ambiguous at the end:
We need to take information, wherever it is stored, make our copies and share them with the world. We need to take stuff that's out of copyright and add it to the archive. We need to buy secret databases and put them on the Web. We need to download scientific journals and upload them to file sharing networks. We need to fight for Guerilla Open Access.Note that initially he's talking about stuff that is out of copyright. When he's talking about databases, note that he talks about buying them for the sake of putting them online, not infringing on the works. It's just that bit about scientific journals. And, yes, if those works are covered by copyright, there's likely infringement there, but it's not entirely clear. Especially in an age where many professors post up free copies of their research any way, and where it looks like we're moving to an age where more and more research is open access anyway. In that context, is what he said really so bad?
Apparently the DOJ thought it was a reason to throw the book at Swartz, even if he hadn't actually made any such works available.
The "Manifesto," Justice Department representatives told congressional staffers, demonstrated Swartz's malicious intent in downloading documents on a massive scale.Some may agree with that, but it seems like a jump towards "thoughtcrime" since he hadn't actually made any move towards making the JSTOR data available. It's possible that he planned to only make the public domain works (of which there are many) available. It's also possible he planned to leak the whole thing. But, really, you would think that there should be a bit more evidence of that before prosecutors throw the book at him.
More importantly, it suggests that Swartz was arrested and prosecuted for expressing his opinion on how to solve a particular problem. You may or may not agree with it, but I thought the US was supposed to be a place where we were free to express ideas. There's even some famous part of our Constitution about that...
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Filed Under: aaron swartz, congressional investigation, doj, jail
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Man...
I'd rather deal with 100 psychos with guns, 1000 terrorists and the crappy health care system than the DoJ/NSA/FBI.
How sad is that?
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Re: Man...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation
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IP Maximalist's Formulation
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Re: Man...
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Re: Man...
um, you do realize The They (tm) are one and the same these days, richtig ? ? ?
unka sam has just cut out the middleman and does all the terrorizing themselves...
based on a true story...
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
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Re: Man...
Ashamed that these jackasses masquerading as public servants are? Deeply.
IANAL, but how is such a wanton display of a lack of morals, a blatant disregard for justice (and the law by reference), and brazen dereliction of their duty as prosecutors not sufficient for review for disbarment or criminal charges?
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Re: Man...
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It's as sad and pathetic as the case of the medium in Britain, World War II who passed on messages from dead sailors who were on a military-classified ship, and got herself imprisoned under 17th-century witchcraft laws.
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Re:
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You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
THIS is exactly why I LIKE to come here. It'd be awful of me to nag someone who doesn't make obvious errors -- frequent and egregious -- on the basics.
AND WHY YOU DO THAT INTRIGUES ME. You may have the facts right here, but your daffy focus and characterization then undermine credibility to the point of reversal.
ANYWAY. Thanks for the distraction, Mike. Now on to topic:
Even though we're living under tyranny from a "Justice Department" it STILL doesn't excuse Swartz for STEALING data that JSTOR paid to put into its library! That's the basic fact of what he DID,and went to a deal of trouble for it too, dodging their security measures. AT BEST that was dicey. As turned out, FOOLISH.
As I said back when that story came out: People, DON'T TEMPT AN INSANE GOV'T! Just let data stay locked up, NOT YOU. Pick your battles. -- Don't get distracted by Mike's wrong focus, either.
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Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
Quit talkin out of yer ass as if the laws are justified.
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Re: Re: Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
The power company routinely disagrees with the laws of physics, but when has that stopped them?
Here, they are upset with all the folks switching over to solar that they have been trying to lobby the government to allow them to collect money from all the folks using solar for not using their electricity. I don't have a problem with capitalism (I love capitalism,) but this isn't capitalism...it is cronyism. They blew up a perfectly working power-plant in order to increase the cost of electricity, and now they are complaining to the government that they aren't getting enough money from the folks setting up solar.
Just because the power company disagrees doesn't make it wrong.
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Re: Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
To funny, I read that and immediately pictured a politician speaking.
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Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
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Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
That's right. Just bend over and be nice. If you're nice enough, they might deign to use lube.
That's what's happening.
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Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
You're welcome.
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Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
Your "obvious errors -- frequent and egregious -- on the basics" are why WE continually jump down your throat, boy.
Keep up the inept work!
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Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
In one form or another, Masnick lies every day on this blog. Reading through the archives, it is obvious he was ok with that from day 1.
Truth is clearly nothing but a nuisance to him.
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Re: You go from "DOJ Admits" to "impression" and "suggests".
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You sir, are a complete pussy. But hey, don't sweat it. We will continue to fight for what is right in spite of your mental absence.
Nigel
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Re: "Pick your battles"
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Just wow...
Recently, the DOJ decided that going against the HBC couldn't happen because thru were too big to fail. Huge charges against Blackwater were dropped down to misdemeanors.
Yet there is a grand jury out on Julian Assange for exposing government secrets and Aaron was facing 50 years.
So if you speak out against the status quo, if you decide that our government is corrupt, if you think about exposing how much of a lie our government had become, then prepare to face huge charges.
Amazing... So much time wasted in covering up crimes, that I fail to see how our government isn't a criminal cartel which needs more public input instead of private interests.
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Re: Just wow...
The only difference between the DoJ/FBI and a criminal is the badge they wear.
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Re: Just wow...
Except it was less than six months, not fifty years. But don't let the facts impede your goofy narrative.
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Re: Re: Just wow...
I love how you shoot the forest for the trees. Particularly the point where no one thinks he sought to profit from putting academic journals into the public domain to be discussed and help others attain knowledge except for the DOJ and other people in positions of power.
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Re: Re: Just wow...
Without the deal, it kinda depends on the math you want to do. IANAL, but the number people were throwing around was 50 years maximum, so Jay is about right.
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Re: Re: Just wow...
What's that you were saying about goofy narratives?
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But don't let the facts impede your goofy narrative.
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Re: Re: Just wow...
The FACT that Swartz would have to plead GUILTY to a FELONY in order to get less than six months.
The FACT that Swartz was not willing to plead guilty to a felony. Perhaps because he didn't think he was guilty of the charges.
The FACT that the potential total sentence if convicted on all charges WAS 50 + years.
You meant THOSE FACTS?
Don't let those FACTS stop you from telling half truths either.
Oh, wait; You didn't.
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Re: Re: Re: Just wow...
Regardless of the amount of incarceration time, pleading guilty would also have resulted in additional punishment that the "he was only facing six months" crowd completely ignores.
There would be forfeiture, which is surrendering all the equipment, money and property that the government says had something to do with his crime. You can rest assured that the government would have sought everything he had acquired since the earliest days of his open-access advocacy.
There would be restitution, where he would be forced to pay a very unpleasant amount of money to MIT and JSTOR, even though JSTOR had already settled with him, and even though MIT hadn't suffered any harm not attributable to the institution's own overreactions.
His release would be supervised, meaning that once he served six months, he'd be out of jail but not as free as the rest of us. He'd be subject to harsh restrictions on his life out in the world, as was done in the wire fraud/"hacking" case of Kevin Mitnick, who was forbidden from even touching a computer or talking about his case for 10 years after his release. Swartz would almost certainly be subject to similar restrictions. He would be forbidden from using the Internet except as a casual, passive user. He wouldn't be allowed to engage in any activism of any kind, not even publicly expressing his opinions about injustices, be they related to open access or not. He'd be under a gag order, forbidden from talking about his admitted crime or doing anything that might garner publicity or result in profit related to it. He'd be putting himself at great risk of reincarceration if he were to become "Internet famous" for any new accomplishment whatsoever. He'd be under travel restrictions, would have to keep the government informed of his whereabouts, and would have to regularly check in with a probation officer. Anyplace he goes, he'd find that there are all sorts of laws on the books, as well as unwritten policies of employers, to make life harder for felons.
And finally, by admitting that his actions did in fact constitute the exact crimes with which he was charged, he would give the DOJ license to pursue further convictions of people with just as little—or even less—evidence against them; there government would concoct ever-more egregious stretches of the definitions of wire fraud and computer damage, in the name of protecting businesses from "hackers".
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Personally, I think it looks like a fanciful parade of horribles that you have conjured up without any basis in reality.
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so what you are saying is total bullshit.
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Don't worry; at the rate you're digging yourself soon you'll have the amount of respect that two truckloads of elephant poop receives.
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He brought on the potential for 35-50 years of imprisonment for supposed criminal activity for doing nothing but downloading journals.
Let's make this clear here...
The DoJ could have looked into actual money laundering from the big banks. They could have looked into fraud. There was even possible hacking from China. Yet, they decided that it was easier to go after someone for making a political statement about how open access to knowledge and research shouldbe .
They ignored any sense of proportion because to them, they get to play judge, jury, and executioner through the very corrupt concept of plea bargaining. They played around with the idea of making him a felon, where his life was essentially ruined. After an expensive trial, he could be found innocent but destitute. If he was found guilty, then there is a very real chance that he could still get seven years for doing something that comes naturally on a computer.l
You're unbelievable. Out of all that, you can't admit that the federal sentencingguidelines are vague because then you would have to admit that the 4000+ statutes can be used in ways unintended by Congress to punish the public far more than it punishes those who bought the government in the first place.
What a despicable moral standpoint...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just wow...
This is bullshit. He was an extraordinarily gifted individual and successful entrepreneur. No way this "ruins" his life. Sounds dramatic when you say it, though.
After an expensive trial, he could be found innocent but destitute. If he was found guilty, then there is a very real chance that he could still get seven years for doing something that comes naturally on a computer.
He dodged similar charges in 2008. He knew what he was doing, and did it anyway. Swartz set this chain of events into motion, no one else. That it "comes naturally on a computer" is utterly absurd and an incredibly weak argument even by your flaccid standards.
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It is dramatic. Have you looked at how this country treats felons? Want to be employed by most companies? Not likely. Want to start a company and need funding - you don't think they'll be doing background checks?
And he was a political activist. Check out how many states don't let felons vote after they've "served their debt to society." How many political organizations would want to work with him after that? Meetings with lawmakers or policy wonks?
He dodged similar charges in 2008.
Dodged, as in - he did nothing wrong.
He knew what he was doing, and did it anyway.
Of course he knew what he was doing. He was doing nothing wrong. He knew he was allowed to connect to the MIT network (everyone is). He knew those on the MIT network could access the journals. Not seeing where he did anything wrong. I fail to see where he did anything wrong. Oh, he went into a wiring closet - yet he wasn't charged with trespassing, so I guess that wasn't wrong or enough for anyone to get worked up about, either.
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It is dramatic. Have you looked at how this country treats felons? Want to be employed by most companies? Not likely. Want to start a company and need funding - you don't think they'll be doing background checks?
Are you seriously suggesting that one of the finest computer minds in the world would have a hard time finding a job after this? And I have obtained numerous loans and mortgages. The only thing they checked were my credit report, financial statements and tax returns.
And he was a political activist. Check out how many states don't let felons vote after they've "served their debt to society." How many political organizations would want to work with him after that? Meetings with lawmakers or policy wonks?
Massachusetts isn't one of them. Neither is NY. I can imagine the political organization he founded would welcome him. And you can bet Wyden, Lofgren and Issa would all have had a parade for him. Others? Who knows.
"He dodged similar charges in 2008."
Dodged, as in - he did nothing wrong.
Or the government had insufficient proof.
"He knew what he was doing, and did it anyway."
Of course he knew what he was doing. He was doing nothing wrong. He knew he was allowed to connect to the MIT network (everyone is). He knew those on the MIT network could access the journals. Not seeing where he did anything wrong. I fail to see where he did anything wrong. Oh, he went into a wiring closet - yet he wasn't charged with trespassing, so I guess that wasn't wrong or enough for anyone to get worked up about, either.
If his pal Larry Lessig acknowledged his wrongdoing. He's an actual lawyer and was his personal friend. Maybe that should tell you something. I've seen plenty of car chases on reality tv, where the driver is charged with serious offenses. Yet those prosecutors never seem to file charges for failing to use a turn signal, speeding, reckless driving, etc. Hard to believe you're this stupid. I'll chalk it up to desperation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just wow...
Desperation and anger at a seriously fucked up legal system. Desperation and anger at a seriously disfunctional political system. Desperation and anger that these system are used by the rich and powerful to prey on those without power. Desperation and anger that those without power have no recourse.
And yet, the powerless aren't completely powerless. They have the numbers. And at some point, enough of them will realize that they aren't powerless. And when that desperation and anger bubble over, the results will not be pretty.
You think I'm some anarchist pirate. I don't want anarchy. I don't want society to break down and collapse. I don't want the inevitable chaos and destruction that revolution brings. But it will if we stay on this path. This country isn't immune to the same forces that have brought down other empires and civilizations.
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He was going to be charged with espionage. That's why he offed himself.
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what???????
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Re: Just wow... ('Tis easy to forget...)
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Re: Just wow...
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Re: Just wow...
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Saving face
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Re: Saving face
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Re: Saving face
The top lawyers in the land need a rule to tell them to turn over all evidence, not just the parts that help them. Fair trial anyone?
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I wonder why humans in general are so damn afraid to admit they committed errors, that they failed. And it's even more puzzling when you think that the DOJ usually don't suffer any type of punishment for anything they've done wrong..
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Re:
Pride, mostly.
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Response to: Ninja on Feb 25th, 2013 @ 9:20am
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Re: Response to: Ninja on Feb 25th, 2013 @ 9:20am
Think about that.....
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Re: Re: Response to: Ninja on Feb 25th, 2013 @ 9:20am
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Re: Re: Re: Response to: Ninja on Feb 25th, 2013 @ 9:20am
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Re: Wonder why..
Respectable, moral, and confident people admit their mistakes when necessary. Cowardly (n*ardly - afraid to use the acceptable "n" word in a society of illiterates) people live in fear and self-doubt (whether conscious of their fear or not).
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Response to: Ninja on Feb 25th, 2013 @ 9:20am
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I doubt he could "buy" (as in own the rights) to databases. What he was talking about was subscribing and then downloading and distributing which violate both the law and TOS.
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Oh wait, no we can't. The guy is dead because he was bullied by a few assholes that were too afraid to admit to their bosses that they screwed up.
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I am amazed - but not surprised - that you need to ask that question.
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Second, had he plead guilty of a felony it would have ruined his chances at a carrier for the rest of his life.
Third, who cares what the AC, me or anyone else would do. It is what Aaron Swartz did.
Fourth, some people actually have a backbone and will not plead guilty to something they don't think they are guilty of.
Fifth, people have been screwed by pleading guilty and then getting harsher sentences than promised. After all the prosecutor only gets to recommend the sentence, it is up to the judge to determine the sentence.
Sixth, since JSTOR got their data back and didn't want to press charges, you have to ask why was the DOJ proceeding and ratcheting up the pressure. Hmmmm.
Seventh, Unless you have faced those circumstances you can't really say what you would do.
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Read the sentencing guidelines. Then you'd know how laughable your statement is.
Second, had he plead guilty of a felony it would have ruined his chances at a carrier for the rest of his life.
I assume you meant "career". Total bullshit. He was a genius and entrepreneur. There were tons of people who would have hired him.
Third, who cares what the AC, me or anyone else would do. It is what Aaron Swartz did.
Fine. But stop exploiting his mental illness for political purposes. It makes you look like an even bigger asshole. If that's possible.
Fourth, some people actually have a backbone and will not plead guilty to something they don't think they are guilty of.
I guess you are saying he had no backbone?
Fifth, people have been screwed by pleading guilty and then getting harsher sentences than promised. After all the prosecutor only gets to recommend the sentence, it is up to the judge to determine the sentence.
All sentences are governed by sentencing guidelines. Plea deals are routinely approved by judges because who'd enter into an agreement if the other side wasn't bound by it?
Sixth, since JSTOR got their data back and didn't want to press charges, you have to ask why was the DOJ proceeding and ratcheting up the pressure. Hmmmm.
Maybe because JSTOR doesn't have any discretion in the matter. The prosecutor, not the crime victim decides on what charges to bring.
Seventh, Unless you have faced those circumstances you can't really say what you would do.
Oh yes I can. I'd shut up, do my time and carry on with my life six months down the road. I'll bet you would too.
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Um, I am not exploiting anyone.
I understand that the prosecutor determines the charges. It is still highly questionable when there was no real harm done and charges are piled on like that. In reality, he didn't break the rules. MIT had virtually zero security, and JStor had an agreement that did not prevent the download. The fact that it wasn't a foreseen act for someone to "download it all" doesn't make it illegal.
Well you would probably be wrong, I am very bull headed and would never plead guilty if I didn't think I was guilty. (If I thought I was guilty, then damn straight I would shut up and do my time).
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I understand that the prosecutor determines the charges. It is still highly questionable when there was no real harm done and charges are piled on like that. In reality, he didn't break the rules. MIT had virtually zero security, and JStor had an agreement that did not prevent the download. The fact that it wasn't a foreseen act for someone to "download it all" doesn't make it illegal.
Please. He knew he was doing wrong. He concealed his identity, ran from the cops, played cat-and-mouse with the security guys.
Well you would probably be wrong, I am very bull headed and would never plead guilty if I didn't think I was guilty. (If I thought I was guilty, then damn straight I would shut up and do my time).
Better calculation would be likelihood of conviction and resulting penalty versus the plea deal.
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All of which are meaningless when it comes to court. At most then (if its true he ran from cops, I haven't heard that he did, so please provide a source), he would have gotten "Resisting Arrest" charges.
So how did he conceal his identity? Was it something as simple as concealing his face in a hoodie? Last I heard, that's not illegal. And again, running from cops doesn't automatically mean that the guy running is guilty of whatever. Is it a good idea to run? No, but it doesn't mean he is automatically guilty!
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I'll await your lavish apology:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261840/Aaron-Swartz-MIT-surveillance-shot-ruine d-tragic-Reddit-founders-life.html
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By hiding his face with his bicycle helmet as he accessed the server closet. And he did try to elude police and got tackled and handcuffed. It all reflects upon his state of mind.
That is your opinion. I have too much self respect to confess to something I don't think I am guilty of.
You'd probably lose that self respect quickly as you were made to wear Koolaid lipstick and doing God-knows-what while serving a long sentence at a real prison.
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It may show, he thought his action of putting a laptop in the closet might be frowned upon. That is hardly conclusive proof he knew he was being a master thief and could spend the next 5-50 years in jail.
He could have thought what he was doing was no more wrong than sneaking an extra person into a hotel room without paying for the extra person. In other words worth about $10.
Later, he didn't wan't to be caught. Big surprise there.
There is no way any reasonable person could conclude that what he did warranted multiple felony convictions. Had the DOJ gone with some misdemeanor charges, which would have more closely fit the situation, I would have far less of a problem with this. But they were looking for that one big, look what we did for cyber crime case. Oddly enough, it seems that the DOJ has pretty much admitted they felt compelled to go after a felony even with a lack of evidence to make their actions seem just.
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So now your claim is: "He had done this before, and was found not guilty that time, so he knew he was breaking the law this time." Is that what you are saying?
That sounds like rather obtuse way to reach a conclusion.
It would seem much more likely, if he had done it before and been acquitted that he would have felt more comfortable that his acts were within the law. Even if he felt he was breaking the law, was he facing 35-50 years in 2008? I am betting the answer to that question is no. But I don't know anything about the 2008 case.
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You can still be sentenced for up to a year for a misdemeanor.
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I actually know a few. At least one I know for a fact was wrongly convicted. (Well probably better stated, had the charges 'pumped up')
Good people overall, but their earning capacity is shit.
The deck is already stacked against the average person from succeeding, a felony conviction just makes it that much harder. It might still be possible but it is a lot less likely.
And life looks a lot different at 20 something than it does at 50 something or even 30 something.
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Do you seriously think he would not have been able to make a very good living because of this?
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I believe the evidence shows that is what he believed.
It really doesn't matter if it was true or not.
To answer your question, yes I think he would have had a rough time. Not as rough as most, but it would have been a stigma he would have always had. There would have probably been a number of doors that were permanently closed, and one or to that might have been unlocked.
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If you had done that, you would have noticed that the DOJ executed a severely egregious act of prosecutional over-reach to come up with the charges that Aaron Swartz got in the first place.
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This is you talking out of your ass again.
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Really, you should shut up while you're only a little behind.
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Ahem. Pardon my impoliteness and my blatant feed of the troll. I'll excuse myself while more patient people try to argue this one and throw insightful slaps into his face.
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i REALLY despise these hit-and-run asswipe authoritarians...
dog damn i'm old, but every day i get more and more pissed at this corrupted society, and am just WAITING for the 'v for vendetta' incident which brings the whole fucking rotten mess to a head...
when the 99% FINALLY bite back, the consequences will not be pretty for the 1%...
(when you prevent dissent, you cause revolution)
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
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I know an ex-con, he has the HARDEST time finding places to live and work simply because of a crime he did over 20 years ago.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzLMcq8YMfU
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From nonprofit vote.org-
Massachusetts
Individuals incarcerated for a felony conviction are ineligible to vote. Voting rights are automatically restored upon release from prison, and people on parole or probation can vote. Ex-offenders should re-register to vote.
And before you blunder into your next stupid statement, even though it was a Federal conviction- voting is governed by state law.
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Maybe the fact felons lose the right to vote is one reason the US is so corrupt. Because it has the highest percentage of its population in prison among nations, there's less of its own people willing and able to vote out corrupt politicians. That and the fact the prisons are for-profit (which in my own humble opinion is the most blatant act of literally selling the government ever).
Second to last- show me where its illegal to hide your face with a bicycle helmet. It could possibly be a rule on MIT, but that wouldn't be a law.
Lastly - You're writing as if the US government follows its own rules all the time. It doesn't. Just because the law there states Swartz would have had his voting rights restored is no guarantee they would have been. It would take a vigilant population to do so.
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Second to last- show me where its illegal to hide your face with a bicycle helmet. It could possibly be a rule on MIT, but that wouldn't be a law.
It shows his state of mind. Just like fleeing from law enforcement
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Translation: Mission accomplished.
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That's not true. The Federal system is 100% government run. But don't let the facts dissuade you.
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Aaron was still very young, and apparently unable to cope.
When you get to a certain age, hopefully, you will realize that your best revenge is living well.
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I do.
I think you do not.
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http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html
It should be noted that this particular bully (Carmen Ortiz), was making Swartz's life unbearable in ways that make highschool look like kindergarten in comparison.
Giving a kid a swirlie? Bitch please. Carmen Ortiz will throw you in prison for potentially 50 years just because the DOJ screwed up on arresting you (even though JSTOR wasn't pressing charges).
I can see why Aaron Swartz was pushed to suicide. A lot of people can only take so much abuse...
Now the bigger question is this: will heads roll for this travesty? One of them preferably belonging to a certain overzealous prosecutor...
As the Zen Master says, "We'll see."
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[really wish there was a way to edit these posts...]
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Why should Aaron have had to face criminal charges when the people he wronged weren't going to press charges against him?
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So, how about you address the actual arguments instead of proposing outlandish shit without backing it up?
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FTFY
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No.
But that's because I'm too cowardly to kill myself.
Then again, I can say that with a clear thought, not suffering from major depression and not being stressed out from bullying from the DoJ.
Would I say the same thing if I was suffering depression, being stressed out from the bullying and not thinking clearly?
I don't know. And neither do you.
This isn't the case of the girl who killed herself because some kids were picking on her online. This is a case of the government, specifically LAW ENFORCEMENT, going to extremes.
BTW, I seem to recall people getting arrested when people commit suicide for their roles in the person committing suicide.
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I can't say that I'd be suicidal in his position, but it would be an almost unimaginably awful situation and very difficult to handle. Swartz did not believe himself to be guilty of the things he was charged with. If he lied and pled guilty, the psychological load would have been enormous. If he was honest, he was looking at decades in prison. It's easy to see how he may have thought he had no way out.
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Yeah...real classy you are. Is it likely that the prosecution were one of, if not the, main cause of his suicide? Yes. Beyond a doubt. I would find being threatened with jail time, no matter how short, to be stressful at the very least. For you to continue harping on about "oh its only six months" just shows what a scumbag you are. I don't care if he was being sentenced to six months in Disney Land. The fact is, he was being threatened with being locked away from the rest of society, of losing his freedoms, over an act that quite frankly, harmed no-one.
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I've made stupid decisions, even at times when I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that what I was doing was stupid. Aaron was smart, but at the end of the day...he was human. He still had the ability to make stupid decisions. I believe it was stupid of him to commit suicide, but that doesn't mean that the suicide itself makes the prosecution's conduct meaningless (since of course, you don't harp on that).
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Just because the government accuses you of something doesn't mean you're guilty.
As the article itself notes, the government basically says that it wanted to arrest him for his manifesto. At that point they decided he was guilty, so they jumped into a case they had no business in, realized they made a mistake, then tried to cover it up by slapping him with a bunch of stupid baseless claims.
You're as bad as the prosecution in this ASSUMING he's already guilty and that he should just serve the 6 months.
HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! The 6 months was a coverup by the government in order to say they were able to arrest this guy who was against a lot of the technical policies of the government.
Basically, this case is showing the government is out to paint people who are for sharing information on the Internet as criminals. I'm willing to bet to that extent that if you follow the trails, the MAFIAA is probably somewhere in on pointing the finger at Swartz.
Still, either way, you're trying to tell me that if the government says you're guilty, you should do 6 months without asking questions. Well you should be the one serving 6 months then....
I'll leave you with this quote: "Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security." (In modern day terms: "Go to Jail. Go directly to Jail. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200").
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Done. Now, what do you think I need to apologize for?
As to the rest of your comment, I truly don't understand what you're trying to say. Prison is no big deal?
He wasn't facing 6 months in any case. He was being threatened with 35 years. The six months was about a plea bargain, which Swartz (or myself, were I in his shoes) was unable to accept because he would have had to lie to do it.
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For starters saying that he could get 35-50 years. And no, he wouldn't have to "lie"- not that it appears he had any problem with deceit. At the end of the day, you can get fucked unless you assume the position. Swartz had been down this road before, knew exactly what the stakes were and then did it anyway.
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I will not apologize for simply reiterating the very threats the DOJ was making to him.
So pleading guilty to something you don't think you're guilty of isn't lying?
When was he deceitful?
True. But Swartz was going to get fucked whether he assumed the position or not.
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I will not apologize for simply reiterating the very threats the DOJ was making to him.
The threats were baseless. You could tell me you were going to kick my ass. But there's close to zero percent chance of that ever happening. So, it's not like I'd take that sort of threat seriously.
"And no, he wouldn't have to "lie""
So pleading guilty to something you don't think you're guilty of isn't lying?
I imagine that the court would have accepted a no-contest plea. Who the fuck cares though?
"not that it appears he had any problem with deceit"
Concealing his face from the cameras to avoid identification, for starters.
When was he deceitful?
"At the end of the day, you can't get fucked unless you assume the position."
True. But Swartz was going to get fucked whether he assumed the position or not.He was deceitful as he hid his face to conceal his identity from cameras, for starters.
Nobody forced him to do this. He beat the charge in 2008 and took proactive measures to thwart detection and evade law enforcement. He wouldn't have faced any charges had he not engaged furthering his declared manifesto.
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Maybe so, maybe not. That's irrelevant. It was the DOJ doing the threatening. Perhaps you're the exception, but the overwhelming majority of people in that position would take them very, very seriously. The threats are credible.
I do, obviously. And I'm far from the only one.
We differ on the definition of "deceit", then.
Irrelevant. The charges they he was being threatened with were over-the-top ludicrous. If we had a criminal justice system that actually cared about justice, he would also not have faced charges. Or, at the most, a simple trespassing charge.
But we don't. And that's not Swartz' fault.
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Aaron is 100% responsible for the trouble he brought upon himself. You can cry about the severity, but it is undeniable that he set it in motion. It is entirely relevant.
The threat of actually getting 50 years and a million dollar fine are laughable and any responsible attorney would have advised his client of such. He had a plea agreement offered of six months. He could have gone to trial and won. He could have lost and the prosecutor was going to ask for 7 years. That's the top of the sentencing guidelines. But Swartz profile doesn't merit the upper band.
Instead he hung himself and sentenced all of those who cared about him to a lifetime of sorrow. I see that as the worst outcome of all.
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2011 rolls around....the DOJ want's to save face and then arrests Aaron Swartz on little charges not even remotely involving the earlier JSTOR case.......
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What the fuck are you talking about? Go look at the photos again. They're labeled. Also Swartz wasn't alleged to have entered a computer room in 2008 so again.... wtf?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261840/Aaron-Swartz-MIT-surveillance-shot-ruined-tragic -Reddit-founders-life.html
Maybe you are a psychologist after all. Most of the ones I've met were nuttier than squirrel shit. In which case you're over-qualified.
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No need to fold personal insults into this. We disagree. I don't think that withholding your identity counts as deceit. Deceit is engaging in deception.
I've never said otherwise.
I think that you underestimate the amount of power a threat from a prosecutor has. If I were in that position, no amount of reassurance from my attorney would counter that. History does not reassure than any amount of time is "laughable". There are quite a lot of "laughable" sentences like that, and this was a case that was obviously deeply political for the DOJ. Political cases are even less stable.
When you add all the charges the DOJ was threatening him with together, 35 years is a bit higher than the middle band. The prosecutor was going to ask for a minimum of 35 years. Unless you're saying the prosecutor was lying.
Yes, the outcome is a real tragedy. That said, if Swartz believed he might spend the next 35+ years in prison (and I don't know if he did or not), suicide does begin to look less terrible in contrast.
But that's all irrelevant to this anyway. The issue is, did the DOJ behave in good faith and with the goal of seeing justice done? It looks to me like the answer is clearly "no".
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I cannot fathom how you believe concealing your identity from a camera while engaged in unlawful activity doesn't qualify as deceit or deception.
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http://democrats.oversight.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5853 &Itemid=49
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You are acting like someone who plays on the Internet all day and doesn't really get out much. You need to seek treatment.
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"“[I]f convicted on these charges,” said Ortiz [in an official press release], “Swartz faces up to 35 years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release, restitution, forfeiture and a fine of up to $1 million.”
Note that the 35 years figure is before they piled on a bunch of additional charges, bringing things up to about 50 years.
Deception is being deceptive. In other words, giving false information: lying. Concealing your identity is not that, regardless of the purpose. Concealing your identity is withholding information, not giving false information.
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Citation please? All of the media accounts say the prosecution would seek 7-8 years at trial. But, what do they know?
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http://rt.com/usa/doj-targeting-swartz-activism-482/
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Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and read that again. It was six months for a guilty plea, and the prosecution would ask for 7-8 years if he lost at trial. Oh look, there's shit on your face.....again.
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What are you talking about? Six months if you win? It's zero if you win. It's six months if you accept the plea agreement and if you went to trial and lost, the government said it would seek 7-8 years.
The DOJ would have given him 35 years minimum, if he didn't plea innocent. But I'm sure you missed that.
I and anyone that can read missed that. First off, the DoJ is not even part of the judicial branch of government. They don't give anybody anything. Sentencing is a function of the judicial branch, specifically the court. What you said doesn't even make any sense... "The DoJ would have given him 35 years minimum if he didn't plea(sic) innocent." So if he pled guilty (the opposite of pleading innocent) they would have sought 35 years. You're nuts or really, really stupid. I'm not sure which.
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I think I know what he is trying to say.
If he pleaded guilty and won the case, he would have been jailed for 6 months....if Swartz pleaded an Alford Plea which was what was being offered. 7 to 8 years if he pleaded guilty without Alford plea...and 35 years if he plead not guilty...the DOJ had stacked a ton of minor charges to save face and pressure him into an Alford Plea.
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Not exactly Gitmo.
http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/best-prisons-federal_cx_lr_06slate_0418bestprisons.html
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Utter bullshit. Pure solitary? You're kidding right?
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People who allegedly violate the CFAA and get a guilty sentence are typically treated the same as those charged with a second degree murder.
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First, it's Stewart; not Steward. Second, no prison is "reserved" for any single offense. That's idiotic.
People who allegedly violate the CFAA and get a guilty sentence are typically treated the same as those charged with a second degree murder.
What the fuck is a "guilty sentence"? Do you have a shred of proof of what you're saying? Typically, short-term non-violent offenders are housed in minimum security facilities, while violent offenders with long sentences are in medium to maximum security. I realize that is inconvenient for your narrative, but you are simply talking out of your ass... again.
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Techdirt is like the yard at moron prison.
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In other words.....being found guilty for the crime for which they have committed with due process of United States Law........
" Typically, short-term non-violent offenders are housed in minimum security facilities, while violent offenders with long sentences are in medium to maximum security."
If you violate the CFFA however you would only be getting 10 to 20 years. The DOJ was shooting for 30 to 50 years.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030#c
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"Good point. Though this simpleton is just so full of shit, it's hard to resist bitch slapping him."
Likewise...a bit of a lesson, the more you argue with someone you perceive as a fool, the more you look like a bigger one than those fools you argue with.
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Could They?
But he wasn't up against normal a-holes, these are federally funded, tax payer expense, (questionable) law enforcement a-holes. How do you stand up against that and not be intimidated? And for what? Copying data that would best help people out by making it public? (Steal definition: Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it. By this definition, the only way you can steal data is by permanently deleting it after copying it.)
Overall, Swartz was just a person that didn't just complain about what is wrong with the system, he fought against it in his own way. It may have been wrong, but can you list out any other methods that have a chance in your lifetime that may have gotten better results. And if you think it is wrong to fight a corrupt system, then all those that sign the Declaration of Independence are the greatest criminals of all time.
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If coerced, yes. I would give my life to save others.
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You cannot copyright facts.
If the database contains facts, and he distributes the facts contained within it instead of the entire database, he would not have broken the law. And a TOS is not the law, either.
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You can copyright the creative portion of a math book (illustrations, language, etc.), but you cannot copyright the mathematical ideas themselves.
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http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html
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Should the government have gotten itself involved in Swartz? No. The JSTOR declined to pursue charges. What harm was caused? IIRC, the database he accessed was documents that were supposed to be in the public domain, so again...where was the harm? Why would the government get itself involved in a case where the presumed "victim" declines charges, unless the prosecutor wants to make a name for themselves?
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What the fuck does this mean:
More proof you're not a lawyer, otherwise you'd know that the US doesn't allow databases to be copyrighted.
You aren't very well suited for this are you? Maybe you should stick with something you're good at... like fellatio.
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Congratulations on sinking to a new low.
FYI - I'm a virgin, not that that matters to you. All you care about is insulting when it turns out you can't make an argument.
Besides...what sort of insult is fellatio? That might be taken as an insult about oh 50 or 60 years ago, where being homosexual was a massive social stigma, but not today. Yes, there is still anti-homosexuals out there, but the world is much more liberal towards them.
Notice I say them. I happen to be heterosexual.
Still, it says a lot, and I do mean, A LOT, about your character, when you decide to insult someone by saying they engage in homosexual activities.
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It's not that I feel insulted over the fellatio remark. I don't. It's the fact that there is no point in debating someone when they feel that that is all they can do. I want to debate someone, not exchange insults all day long.
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It's not that I feel insulted over the fellatio remark. I don't.
I'm sure its a point of pride. Congrats!
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I'm not even going to ask how and why you assumed I was female.
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I'm not even going to ask how and why you assumed I was female.
Your thin skin, delicate demeanor and irrational arguments. If you are, in fact, a man it certainly explains why you are still a virgin and likely will remain so.
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When was the last time you thought about what you were going to say before you said it. Talk about putting your foot in your mouth. So yeah, like that attitude is going to get you laid. I can't remember the last time I encountered a woman who appreciated it when told she was easily insulted and stupid.
Want me to link you to a picture of my dangly bits, to prove I'm a man? No, for three reasons
1) There is no difference in what I'm saying when it comes to my gender.
2) I don't have to prove my gender to you.
3) I don't want to take the risk that you are in fact gay yourself and will masturbate to the sight of my junk.
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Thank you for making my point far more eloquently than I ever could.
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It's cute though how you grasp at straws. No technical expert would ever state that was Aaron did was in anyway hiding or attempting to conceal his computer's identity.
As for breaking and entering charges leveled against him. Yes, opening an unlocked closet door at an open campus is totally that. /s
You're such an idiot and have such a hard on for fighting "pirates"(which Aaron wasn't) that you'll do anything to obfuscate the issue/perpetuate the myths surrounding it.
When the person being "wronged" doesn't want to press charges, that's pretty much it. It shows just how little harm was done (in this case NONE).
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The DOJ wanted $1.5 million.
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Until you get some help for your pathological lying, I see no point dignifying your baseless falsehoods with a response.
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If he pleaded guilty, he was offered 6 months in Federal Prison and 3 years probation where he would be practically barred from mentioning the word "computer" let alone handle or touch and/or look at one....and if he did, he eould be sent back for to prison for another 30-50 years.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSTOR
On your web browser, hit Ctrl+F and type in "Aaron Swartz".
It's sad how desperate you are for attention. You are not being funny or witty by trolling along like this. Please just stop. You've gotten plenty of attention.
I am a psychologist and if you need counseling. I have the same amount of patients for my patients as they have for me, so trolling mockery only allows me the same curtesy for you.
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Your citation proves nothing, but does reinforce what an idiot you are. The Swartz plea agreement includes no mention of a fine that I can discover. Your citation was yet another irrelevant recitation of the theoretical maximum sentence and maximum fine. Not what the sentencing guidelines call for and certainly not what the proposed plea agreement contemplated. So again, Mr. Psychologist; you whiffed.
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I might want to warn you that you questioning my merit based on spelling only shows that:
1. You are too stupid to look past spelling mistakes and try to actually read what someone else has to say.
and 2. You have nothing relevant left to argue about or say concerning your theories which you seem to not be backing up, or researching.
If I don't see a link provided by a person I typically do research the subject matter myself which is a lot more than I can definitely can say about you concerning the following comment by you:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130223/02284022080/doj-admits-it-had-to-put-aaron-swartz- jail-to-save-face-over-arrest.shtml#c2596
To to which I responded here:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130223/02284022080/doj-admits-it-had-to-put-aaron-swartz-j ail-to-save-face-over-arrest.shtml#c2780
Not so easy to find anything relevant to say after that wouldn't you say?
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I'm saying the facts in the database (or math book) cannot be copyrighted. There may be elements of either that are able to be copyrighted, perhaps the code used to generate a specific report from the database, or the layout of the math problems, but the facts cannot be.
For example, if Aaron was to have gotten access to a database, and used his own knowledge of coding to generate a report that the makers of the database did not perform or anticipate, he could've done whatever he wanted with that report.
If I have misunderstood some facet of why that would be illegal, please point it out to me.
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Google can index the entire web, even though many of the pages are copyrighted, and they can do whatever they want with their index. Google can digitize every book (copyrighted or not) they can get their scanner on, and use the data to spit out results showing how the overall use of language changes over the decades/centuries without having to worry an iota about copyright.
We don't know what Aaron ultimately was going to do with the data he downloaded and that is tragic.
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The Beaver? I had him pegged as ADHD. Who knew?
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Aaron Swartz was facing severe charges and would have forfeited his works to JSTOR and MIT, his livelihood, his life savings, pretty much his life altogether if he pleaded guilty for a 6 month time in a maximum security Federal Prison (which means solitary confinement for 30-50 years).
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What on earth are you talking about???? You are utterly delusional or simply making up the most fantastic, unsupported lie I've seen on TD to date.
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Aaron Swartz was facing severe charges and would have forfeited his works to JSTOR and MIT,
What works of Aaron Swartz?
.. his livelihood,
How so?
his life savings,
How? No report of a fine that I could detect
pretty much his life altogether
He did that to himself with a rope
....if he pleaded guilty for a 6 month time in a maximum security Federal Prison
Inmates with his profile go to Club Fed, you idiot.
(which means solitary confinement for 30-50 years).
Are you fucking kidding me? Solitary confinement? 30-50 years? WTF?
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http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html
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A case law is along the lines of Rowe vs. Wade .
The point of a case law is that it is a US Supreme Court ruling based upon various factors involving certain circumstances where the US Constitution seems a bit gray legally. They can either provide added structure to the laws already in place...or topple them down like a Jenga tower.
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030
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http://www.ussc.gov
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Tell me exactly how that is actually against the law to provide yourself with a legal defense :-D I mean seriously you sound so stupid in continuing on like you do....
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Feb 25th, 2013 @ 9:22am
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Response to: Togashi on Feb 25th, 2013 @ 9:41am
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is your friend.
Trust the corps.
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Winter is coming!
- Ned Stark
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Are you happy yet?
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You can take a 500$ fine for jaywalking.
or
You can fight it and spend the next 900 years in prison.
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Catch-22
Joseph Heller, Catch-22, chapter eight: Lieutenant Scheisskopf
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NO! Bad Mike! A "lightening rod" would be something like a glow stick. A "lightning rod" is something that attracts strikes.
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Aaron Swartz and Pussy Riot: two cases of crime and punishment
http://www.womeninandbeyond.org/?p=1572
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IOW, the govt is against open access and only seeks closed access at the will of corporate entities.
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wow congressional staffers,,,, have the power to CONVICT PEOPLE !!!!!
They had an opinion, although you do not name them people, but congressional staffers DO NOT CONVICT PEOPLE IDIOT..
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They would believe that because the charges levelled at Swarts were FELONY CHANGES.
Of course they would believe that they would have to lay felony charges in relation to a felony. Laying charges is not a conviction.
You mention no names, what staffers, NAME THEM, or is it the tea lady or someone who sweeps the floor ?
You have a concept of hearsay ?? and do you believe that prosecutors are able to press non-felony charges in a felony charge case ?
What has someone's 'impression' have to do with the rule of law ?
Usual quality of Masnick drek
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The standard trolling combined with people who refuse for one second to even imagine the possibility what was done in this case was horrible.
As people dare to consider the motivations, they spit out vile bile and every possible answer to somehow justify what was done. One is left to wonder if they post so vehemently in threads talking about why DoJ was unable to find any wrongdoing on Wall Street and how the world just needs to suck it up.
I hope that they don't end up distracted by the BP case arguing that poor put upon BP has suffered enough and its just a witch hunt to punish them for something not even BP's fault.
Some truth about the little white lies...
The government is not your friend.
The check is not in the mail.
Yeah he's gonna do it in your mouth.
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well, I have to agree with you. Despite uncontrovertible evidence, few if any of the commenters " seem to believe that people can actually commit crimes." That is the problem. Unmitigated bias. If they answered truthfully during void dire they'd not make the first cut.
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A witch hunt where they piled on charges to get acceptance of lesser charges because a conviction was not assured in court, voiding the right to a fair trial by adding weights and pressure to the scale to obtain an outcome that wasn't about justice or fairness but about not making themselves look like morons.
DoJ is a game of metrics, there is more value in getting a high profile win over making sure Justice is served. Those who are to be the pinnacle of justice in this country abuse their position and power, going so far as hiding evidence that would clear someone they targeted.
The cases they do take to court there is evidence they mislead the court, they omit facts to secure their position, and inflict damage onto those based on allegations that are false.
He might have broken the law but he was denied a fair trial, and the response of the DoJ should be against the law. Crushing someone under ridiculous charges to claim another mark in the win column while undermining the legal process needs to be criminal and be punished.
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Hope the DOJ looses so much face if falls off
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-attorney-steve-heymann/RJKSY2nb
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-of fice-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck
It's the least I could do about this travesty. Part of me hopes that Ortez has to suffer through a trial of one of her own children being prosecuted in this fashion but I doubt it will ever happen.
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Wow...
Wow...just...wow.
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Re: Wow...
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So nice try recycling your lies. but again you fall on your face.
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What lies??? I see no lies....If you want a lie, here's one for you:
You are an intelligent human being who actually makes the time and energy to spend time outside of the world of the internet.
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When you gotta, you gotta
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