Reports Of Xbox One's Handling Of Used Games Mobilizes Playstation Fans
from the opportunity-is-knocking dept
We recently discussed the somewhat mishandled release announcement for Microsoft's new gaming machine, the Xbox One. While a big part of the problem was a lack of firm answers to gamers' questions, it's clear that something is going to change in how the new Xbox handles used games. The rumors vary, but we know that the used games market that has existed for the past several decades is going to be altered to come under stricter control of Microsoft directly. Reception of this news has been cold, but it isn't just Xbox fans reacting.
No, the ultimate effect of Microsoft's actions may end up being a highly mobilized Playstation fandom and a massive opportunity for Sony if they want to grab it. You see, famousmortimer of the popular gaming message board, NeoGAF, decided to bring the wants of the customer to Sony's attention through a simple Twitter hashtag, #PS4NoDRM.
I can say, for sure, that the past week's PR nightmare for MS has not been lost on Sony and they, in fact, do have a used game 'solution' working and have been going back and forth for months on whether to use it. This past week is pushing them strongly into "Yeah, let's not use that."He then suggests that readers politely tweet several high-ranking Sony executives, indicating that they want a free and open used game market, and including the aforementioned hashtag. While he later went on to say that he didn't expect any of this to become much of a movement, that's exactly what it became. Not only did something like 14,000 tweets with the hashtag go out across Twitter, it has become big enough that even the mainstream press is reporting on it.
The campaign has reached dozens of news sites including NBC News. Even now, people are tweeting messages with the hashtag in hopes of getting Sony's attention.Several Sony executives have replied with encouraging tweets, suggesting that, at the very least, they're seriously listening. And listen they should, because that isn't just the sound of gamers typing on their keyboards ringing over the Twitterverse. It's opportunity. Real opportunity.
"It's much larger than I ever imagined," Dodd told me this afternoon. "Honestly thought the post would go about 2 pages." As of right now, the NeoGAF thread has 105 pages and 467,690 pageviews.
Imagine what happens if Sony issues an official response to this campaign. Imagine further that this response acknowledges the fans, thanks them for all of their interest, and firmly states that, on its system, the used game market will go on unhindered. Let's say that a company that has an unfortunate reputation on consumer rights flips the script completely in the gaming arena and positions itself as the consumer's choice compared to Microsoft. What would the market's reaction be? It would be huge.
Finally, if you believe that used games don't harm game sales, but rather spur them along by creating added value, then this should represent the easiest no-lose choice in the gaming business's history. Now let's see if Sony hears opportunity knocking through those corporate walls.
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Filed Under: drm, playstation, used video games, video games, xbox, xbox one
Companies: microsoft, sony
Reader Comments
The First Word
“Re: Not quite right...
It's getting to the point where consoles are literally just pcs with restrictions on them.Subscribe: RSS
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Not quite right...
And I really want to believe Sony has a clue...
But given their history of boneheaded notions, fair use violations, and war on hackers, they might capitalize on this mistake but not utilize it to they're full advantage.
I just have this notion that the PC will ultimately win since it had so many more advantages to consoles.
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I hate to break it to you, but if you're playing games on a Windows PC, you are supporting Microsoft.
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The only reason I even use Windows is because it's preloaded. I got lucky & got a new computer before everyone stopped carrying Windows 7. I REALLY don't like that Windows 8 links your computer to your Live Account & is always online & logged in.
I'm not sure who got my money on that. I like to assume the PC manufacturer, & Windows is on it for free, considering how much Windows costs stand-alone now.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Not quite right...
You'd like to think that, but sadly you'd be wrong. OEMs get massive discounts for Windows when it's preinstalled on PCs. They might only charge $30 or so for Windows, a major reduction from buying a retail copy, but that money goes to Microsoft. (I admit my figures may be a little off as it's been a few years since I've dealt with OEMs, but the status is the same AFIAK).
This is one of the reasons why Linux has had a hard time getting traction in the mainstream. A few years back, Dell started to experiment by offering PCs OS-free or with Linux pre-installed on a few select models with hardware pre-configured to be 100% compatible. Microsoft's response? Stop doing that or we'll make you pay full price for your copies of Windows.
So, if you buy a new PC, you have to buy a copy of Windows. Oh, you can technically contact Microsoft and go through a process to get a refund, but most people won't both or don't know, even if all they do is wipe Windows 8 off their new computer and install Linux or Window 7 instead.
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Re: Not quite right...
Where would they have been had the minidisc not had self-destructing songs?
Where would they have been had players been able to burn their own PSP UMDs?
Hell, these guys won't even let the PS3 controllers charge from a basic USB wall wart.
So, however awesome it would be, I'm nearly certain that Sony will find some way to screw this up.
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The USB spec states that any device cannot draw power (>50mA I think) until it is fully enumerated.
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So I don't mind not being able to resell or buy used because I pay a lot less up front. Most people probably wouldn't mind MS's current system (tied to a single account) if that included a 50-75% price reduction on new games.
Also, Steam seems to be making moves in a direction to allow trading. They added the games inventory section where you can trade games. They just need to add a feature to remove a game from your account and add it to your inventory. I am sure most of the publishers are not too keen on this idea though.
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However, I sincerely agree with your thoughts about the price of new games on the PC. I've purchased somewhere close to 200 titles in the last two years on Steam. Not a single one was over $30 with the vast majority under $15. I can wait several months to play a title, but am thankful for those that purchase the games at the full starting price. They are the ones that keep the ball rolling for the development of better games. I like to add a "me too" once the games have been played, tested and patched so I know full well what to expect from a game.
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I no longer read or even respect Ctrl+Alt+Del.
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Ugh.
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"Now, you can argue the morality of used games all you want, but the bottom line is that developers feel it takes money away from their business, and so they have every right to try and combat it."
It has nothing to do morality. And it does not take a single penny from their business. And they don't have a right to eliminate the first sale doctrine based upon their feelings.
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So if they want to commit suicide let them and be done with it
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The more interesting issue would be if someone cracked the Xbox's DRM and was sued under the DMCA's anti-circumvention laws. But that's less about first sale and more about DMCA reform in general.
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And they want to pretend that they're raping the seller and buyer by paying pennies for the game, and then selling it at near-new prices.
What if, on the other hand, I buy it from the seller directly? At that point, we can meet in the middle (between what the seller would have earned from gamestop, and what gamestop would have sold it for), and we both win.
Also, i see C-A-D compared this to selling a used car that has lost value due to use and that supposedly for a video game, there's no loss of value for the used product ... that's how artificial scarcity works fellas, you can't pretend it's more valuable to buy digital goods "new"... that's ludicrous, and you knew it going into this business model.
It's fair to compare a used video game to a used CD, DVD, or book - why compare it to something that wears out like a car? That's just a fucking stupid comparison, and anyone making such a comparison is trying to lie to their readers.
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Personally, I think games and other media do lose value with age. Otherwise there would be no such thing as a discount bin. People are definitely willing to pay a premium for the latest thing.
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The quantity of new games increases as it loses value for the people who bought it to begin with - so it goes that if you don't get enough new game sales before people lose interest in the game, you're going to have to fight the used game sales in order to make a profit. This should ENCOURAGE developers to find ways to keep games relevant to the buyers by increasing the usefulness of the game over a longer period of time, increasing replayability, etc. Or finding other ways to build on the initial popularity of the game through other avenues such as merchandising, etc.
If they can't monetize their games, then they're doing something wrong... not the consumer. There are far far far more games out there competing for eyeballs than there ever were before, so it's not as easy to make money in that industry. This is no fault of the consumer - it is just evolution of a market.
Passing laws and using dirty technical tricks to punish consumers for their behavior is pretty much the wrong way to solve this problem - and I think we're starting to see the backlash here.
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Of course, I meant "used games" there...
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If you make a good game, it'll have value, even if you stop selling it and the market goes totally to used copies. If your game is crap, it'll end up in the bargain bin unable to sell for even a couple of bucks.
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I picked up the original Legend of Zelda for the NES in fairly crap condition for $35. I picked up Chrono Trigger in box for $50.
I would add that I did that not 2 years ago. This is why removing the second hand market pisses me off so much. I collect video games, it's a hobby of mine. In 10 or 20 years, it will be impossible for me to keep my collection, let alone expand on it.
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This isn't the first time I've seen a used game go for more, but that time I found one still new. ^_^ Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem for the GameCube (very fun & underrated game; & it's based on Lovecraftian Lore) was that way, though a lot cheaper: I got it new for $10, but I think it'd've been over $15 used. Eternal Darkness has a Sequel being developed w/ Crowedfunding (I hope a full version shows up on Nintendo's eShop once it's complete; don't like the Episodic release): via both in site & Kickstarter
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You can argue that this is the exception rather than the rule, but ironically it's only true that most game deprecate because of the actions of the games industry. By making so many games dependent on online components or quickly outdated licences (EA's sports titles, for example), they guarantee that nobody will want to buy them new in a year, while games that don't depend on these things often devalue much more slowly. Once again, the entertainment industry is partially the architect of its own problems.
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C-A-D's patronizing car analogy is therefore no more than a sophomoric red herring.
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EA can no more complain about used games than Ford can complain about used cars. Each has a second hand market and each has to accept that. Though, software developers everywhere try to get around the right of first sale by claiming that you don't "own" your copy, it's only a license despite the fact that section 109 of the copyright act states that you are permitted to sell the copy you own without authorization. It's really just semantic sophistry. They claim you don't own the software, which is true, but you do own the specific copy and you may sell it granted that you transfer your copy in whole and unedited to the buyer.
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There is a tangible value disparity between a brand new car, and a used car that accompanies the differences in price. However a video game that is used is exactly the same product as it was when it was new. The programming does not deteriorate. Bugs and crashes aren't going to suddenly pop up due to age. No matter how many times the game is resold, the used product remains identical to the new product.
If you walked into a car dealership and there was a brand new car sitting there for the same price as a used, beat up model of the same car, anyone in their right mind is going to take the new car for the used car price. And it's the same with used video games. Why would someone pay $60 for a game when they can get the exact same game for $40?
Except now your money is going to GameStop, not the people that made the game.
Now you can say "But they already got their money from the original sale! Car companies don't get a cut every time someone sells a used car!" That's true. But somebody shopping for a used car is not in the market for a new car. A used car buyer is not "stealing" a potential new car sale. However a used game buyer is stealing a potential new game sale. So whereas the developer might have sold two games, they have now sold one, and GameStop has sold one. It's not about ownership or "its my property", it's about used games presenting a threat to new game sales."
It amuses me (actually it irritates me) when I hear this ignorant line of logic. It would be applicable if you could make copies of the game disc, but you can't (well, you aren't permitted). So, as the game gets worn, scratched, etc., the disc it's inseparably tied to degrades. What's more, the game also loses value. Madden '06 doesn't bring in the same trade-in/sale value that Madden '13 will as well as the many CoD titles go down in value as you go back to earlier releases. This blind argument focuses on the nature of binary data and ignores the physical hardware it's tied to like a gas station bathroom key. They want very badly for their industry to be a special case that gets special treatment.
"Now, you can argue the morality of used games all you want, but the bottom line is that developers feel it takes money away from their business, and so they have every right to try and combat it. The most definitive thing you can do is simply not buy the console if it's a big deal to you, but let's be honest... you were clearly going to buy the games used if that's the case, so the developers won't know the difference. They weren't getting your money either way."
Claiming that used games takes away revenue is no different than saying that used cars take away revenue. A used car sale could just as easily be equated to a lost sale for a new car. After all, if you buy used, it negates the possibility of buying new (for most people with limited means, like the 99% of us). The reason a person buys a used car is the same reason they buy a used game. They want an item, but they don't want to, or can't, pay full price.
The second part of this morality argument, not buying the console doesn't matter because you buy used and they won't get any money regardless, that's just stupid. Refusing to even buy the console means that you won't buy any of those games, used or new. So they've missed out on an opportunity to lure a customer to buy new. Now, they won't buy the games at all, unless it exists on a platform they do have. So, buying used might not put money in developer's pockets, but not buying the console at all negates any chance of ever turning that around.
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television: meh
sports: meh
other crap: meh
no games: meh
no backwards compatible: meh
always on: meh
used games: MEH
xbox one: meh.
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As you probably know, that's only half the equation. A lot of people buy games new, complete them in the first couple of weeks, then trade them in to get another new game at a greatly discounted price. Without this ability, those gamers may not buy the games new, at least not at full price. On top of that, there's a certain level of security that comes with buying a console where games can be resold. I know that in the past, I've been able to make some quick cash by selling off a few titles I've completed or didn't like when I've found a need for it. Would I want to invest in something that's a completely sunk cost, with no ability to resell? $5-10 DLC or game downloads? Yes. A full price retail game? Hell no.
That also assumes that there's only 2 kinds of gamers - those who buy new and those who buy used. I can assure you that I fit both of these categories at the same time, and I'm not the only person currently buying brand new 360 games who won't even consider an XBox One if it blocks the ability to sell and borrow games.
Anyone who thinks that players of used games don't matter is completely ignorant of the marketplace, or at least so obsessed with screwing over Gamestop that they don't see how the market works as a whole..
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It's not right, and THAT'S what Tim was getting at. Interpretting what he said as anything other than "Yeah, your favorite developers are screwed by the Used Games market, and that's why they are frustrated with it and working against it" is just reading stuff into what he was saying. Essentially, Gamestop is ThePirateBay, but they charge you for it and it's technically "legal".
Used games done RIGHT would send revenue to the developers to create bigger, better projects, and that's what they are trying to capitalize on. I think Microsoft can manage a decent system, if they draw on some of the natural economies you find in games like Rappelz, or Galaxy Legion, or Galaxy Online II, or WOW, or other MMOs that include an economic system of a sort.
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How the hell is it not right? This is a series of voluntary transactions. All these parties sold and/or bought because they decided the price was fair:
- publisher
- wholesaler (I don't know if there are any for video games)
- retailer
- first purchaser
- second purchaser (eg Gamestop)
- third purchaser
- etc
If the developer isn't getting enough money from the publisher they should find a new publisher or publish their own games. If the publisher isn't getting enough money from retail sales they should reduce costs or figure out how to increase volume. And so on with everyone else in the chain. Where is the injustice you're referring to?
Developers and publishers have no right to get any of the money from second, third, etc. sales. They got fully paid the first time. I think you can fill in the car analogy yourself.
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What makes the videogame industry so uniquely broken that the existence of used games is killing it?
"the developer of the game often only sees first sell value."
That's all they're entitled to. Why are they unable to build their business around the reality that exists for every other industry?
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But if Microsoft attempts to keep new prices high while eliminating cheaper used games, I predict the Xbox One will bomb and bomb hard. The console industry has crashed before, the Wii U has already bombed and the PS3 failed compared to the PS2. So Microsoft's actions could push the entire industry over the cliff.
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So, you can either spend your money at places like Gamestop, or you can seemingly pay Microsoft and publishers to use the game again.
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The joys of monopolies.
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They just don't want that, in their minds selling it for less means less profit. The games industry overall seems to not understand that you can make more money from higher volume. They seem to think it's all higher per-unit profit or nothing at all. At least Valve gets it with Steam, but they're unusual in that regard.
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The risk, of course, is that if you wait too long to drop the price, gamers will just spend their money elsewhere and forget about your game. But all publishers follow this strategy to some degree. It's why you can buy the 2008 game of the year for $20.
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Still, FX has never seriously been a consideration in Australian local pricing of imported goods. We see the same problem with cars, books and movies!
One of the joys of going to Singapore is going to the cinema for an undiscounted cost of $9 per adult ticket. Unsurprisingly, most sessions are pretty full, and the cinemas seem to be doing MUCH better in Singapore than in Australia.
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The other thing to consider is how a mostly digital used games market would affect pricing. The obvious end game for Microsoft here is a global "instant" used-games market. From what I've read, selling a "used" game on Microsoft's system doesn't require transferring a disc. It's simply a matter of unregistering the game from your account and downloading the game to another person's account. That eliminates a lot of arbitrage opportunities -- I'm curious whether people as a whole perceive that as raising or lowering prices though.
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Nor, from the sounds of it, are you going to let your friends borrow your games either (without them paying a fee) because each game will be specifically tied to your user profile (and when you sell it, that title will be wiped from your profile).
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Won't ever happen.
Once you no longer have to compete, why lower the price at all?
Remember this, the RIAA said that once they changed everything from cassette to CD the prices of albums would go down.
Except that they didn't, they went from 17.99 for a CD, vs 14.99 for a cassette, to 22.99-25.99 for a CD within a year.
You think Microsoft won't go "hey, no more used game market" and take the price from $60 to $80 or $100 in the US and push higher prices in Australia and the E.U. as well? And since there's no used game market anymore, older games on the console will remain at an extremely high price until the servers are no longer working, so, if you wait, you get screwed heavily.
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If their shiny new console completely tanks they might be desperate enough to try something.
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It's a nice dream
I would give them better odds of introducing a better root kit then relaxing DRM in any meaningful way.
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I can understand how the companies and the game producing houses are unhappy about not getting a slice of the pie after the first sale, but does GM or Ford get a cut on used cars sales? Nope. If they are so worried about making a dollar, they could be fool hardy and jack the prices up on the game to 75, even 100 dollars, but that would alienate a lot of gamer/fans on multiple levels for multiple reasons.
This whole issues just stinks of greed and companies trying to get over on the consumers who helped get them where they are in the first place.
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If the per console keys are still alive in there, then it can be repaired.
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They assume that everyone needs to buy a next gen console... When we really don't.
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Everything is useless speculation at this point
Hell, people will do that for any of the big three consoles (case in point, when/if Nintendo gets around to releasing Bayonetta 2, I'll be heading out to my nearest store to pick up a Wii U).
Personally I'm gonna with-hold saying that this is the "death of console gaming" like a certain self-righteous PC gamer I know has been going on about ever since last week. At least until we see what's happening at E3.
As the Zen Master says, "We'll see."
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Re: Everything is useless speculation at this point
I can only speak for myself, but I have every Halo game ever made (other than Halo for Mac) and I will not buy an Xbox One to get Halo 5. If it doesn't run on the 360 then I'll just find something else to play.
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Perspective
Microsoft's long game here is to set up an entire digital distribution system akin to Steam -- e.g. one of the interesting announcements was that if you went over to a friend's house and forgot the disc, you could easily download the entire game from the Internet.
Yet Steam doesn't allow resale of used games. As far as I know, no digital distribution does, yet for the most part, they charge the same price as the boxed goods and do quite well.
From that perspective, the fact that Microsoft is considering a a used games system at all is incredibly consumer-friendly.
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Both microsoft and sony sell download only games that you can't sell, but if you want that option you can run out to Best Buy, target, etc and buy the physical disc.
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I wouldn't put money on it.
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Used Games
Sony and Nintendo could really hammer MS if they continue to support used games.
Also, MS appears to be pursuing "everything is in the cloud" strategy which requires users to be permanently connected to MS.
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Gamestop exists for a reason.
Even though there are plenty of people that hate Gamestop they are thriving. In fact there are over 6600 locations. That's a lot of consumer-level support for used games.
If I get an XBOX One, I will not be using it for any video functionality. I will be using this to motivate me to build my HTPC.
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Re: Gamestop exists for a reason.
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Also, say good by to rented games. A market that no one here seems to be talking about.
The only two ways for a system like this to work are the steam model (Code in the package) or to have a code on every disk. Of those, only the first is currently feasible.
My bet is Sony will have an "Unlimited Use" activation code with all the games. Then three years down the road, they'll make it single use because "piracy."
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Sony has filed a patent for a method to write a DRM code to an RFID tag on the disk when it's first inserted into the console.
This code is meant to prevent the disk from ever being played in any other console.
http://www.techspot.com/news/51227-sony-applies-for-rfid-drm-patent-that-would-block-used- games.html
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Anybody whos buys from Sony or Microsoft or EA
Yet games, in some mass demonstration of the Stockholm Syndrome, continue to line up in desperate attempts to hand them even more money...which they will use to engaged in more abuse, ripoffs, stonewalling and lying.
I have ZERO sympathy for gamers who do this. And I do wish they'd stop their incessant whining, because it's becoming most tiresome.
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Re: Anybody whos buys from Sony or Microsoft or EA
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So conflicted...
But then they have lost all my trust.
I work on a Microsoft shop so I want Microsoft to be successful,
But they they go and do crap like this.
In the end I fear that the Xbox one is going to become a huge hit and will be the go to media device for millions of less technical people because they will discover that when they let little Cris hook it up to the TV then everyone else can use it for movies and facebook.
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Just don't buy them
I don't care how they "handle" it. I don't want to hear their excuses. I'm not interested in any "services" they bundle with the DRM to put a positive spin on it. It's not up for debate in any way. If I can't play without jumping through hoops, then I'm not buying it.
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Of course the other side of the coin is that if Sony would seize this opportunity as suggested in the article their overall games sales would theoretically be much higher (and more immediate) than Microsoft's and in that case, publishers would make more many that way than on reclaimed used game sales.
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Re:
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if used games get shot down
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