Yet Another Claim Of How NSA Surveillance 'Saved Us' From Terrorists Falls Apart Under Scrutiny

from the keep-trying-guys dept

Thu, Jun 20th 2013 10:28am — Mike Masnick

As NSA apologists in the government seek to defend the NSA surveillance program, they keep talking about how critical it was to stopping "more than 50" terrorist operations. However, every time they've described any, the details have shown that the surveillance programs often had little to do with uncovering the plot, and were clearly not a key component of stopping anything. We already discussed the NYC subway bombing plot, which was discovered through other means. The other story initially raised, concerning David Headly was similarly found to be on shaky ground as well.

At the hearings this week, FBI deputy director Sean Joyce claimed that the programs were helpful in stopping a plan to bomb the NY Stock Exchange, saying that the program helped find and capture the planners "in the very initial stages," implying that this was before any damage was done. When questioned just how "serious" the plot was, Joyce claimed: "I think the jury considered it serious, since they were all convicted." Ah, well, convictions are public and people went looking, and now it appears that this story is rapidly falling apart as well. The case in question was about Sabirhan Hasanoff and Wesam El-Hanafi, both of whom pleaded guilty to providing material support to terrorism. But nothing in the case had to do with bombing the stock exchange. The idea that the jury convicted them of such caught those involved in the case by surprise:

Joshua L. Dratel, a lawyer for Mr. Hasanoff, called Mr. Joyce's portrayal "astonishing" because none of the defendants was charged with the stock exchange allegation and there was no jury trial in any of the cases.

And, now it's come out that the "threat" to the stock exchange never really existed. The people involved did explore the idea, but gave it up on their own well before doing any serious planning, and, of course, the charges against them had nothing to do with that. In other words, while these guys may have supported terrorism, they didn't have any actual plot to bomb the stock exchange, there was no risk, no lives were saved, and they were not convicted of any such plot. So, no, the programs didn't save any lives here either.

You'd think that the NSA and the FBI would be trotting out the good examples first. If this is the best they have...

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Filed Under: fbi, nsa, nsa surveillance, ny stock exchange, sean joyce, terrorism

33 Comments

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Coyne Tibbets, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:36am

It's not surprising the NSA data is of little utility. They can't admit it exists, so even if it was used, using it would involve evidence washing (my term for "concealing the source of evidence and any associated rights violations").
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- Vincent Clement (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:10am
  
  Re:
  It took the CIA, with all its data (including the NSA, FBI and other agencies and governments), with all its analysts and with all its agents and informants, over 10 years to locate Osama Bin Laden.
  
  And the NSA (and the FBI) want you to believe that they 'sifted' through a bunch of material, connected the dots lickety-split and thwarted 50 terrorist plots.
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  - Jay (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:13am
    
    Re: Re:
    It's actually worse than that. Donald Rumsfeld was given Osama Bin Laden on a silver platter and refused to take him.
    
    The guy was in Pakistan as a regular citizen while we were fighting two wars that cost us trillions and a number of lives for oil!
    
    We didn't NEED the surveillance and it wasn't a priority with Bush. Yet here we are, dealing with the fallout of two wars and the need for constant surveillance tolling a death knell as we have no more terrorists to fight besides home grown protestors to the status quo.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:08pm
    
    Re: Re:
    It took the CIA, with all its data (including the NSA, FBI and other agencies and governments), with all its analysts and with all its agents and informants, over 10 years to locate Osama Bin Laden.
    
    BUT IT DID FIND HIM !!.. so where does that leave your argument ?? Really, saying it found then even after 10 years means the Government will/can say the system is required.
    
    +1 NSA, +0 for TD
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    - Vincent Clement (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:37pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      I never said that data analysis isn't required. Just that it took a very long time - and a lot of human intervention - to find Bin Laden.
      
      But now with some shiny new computer program and with little human intervention, the NSA is able to foil 50 terrorist plots. Meanwhile, not a single agency was able to connect the dots with the Boston Marathon bombers, even when a foreign agency noted they had some concerns.
      
      Shouldn't this wonderful system picked up that, hmmm, the Russians seem really interested in these guys, maybe I, the NSA superprogram with all this data, should pay attention to the ones and zeros and see what I can do for the security and safety of America?
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    - techflaws (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 2:09am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      +0 for TD
      
      TD was involved how?
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- DCX2, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:44pm
  
  Re:
  Evidence washing? I think "Evidence Laundering" is more appropriate.
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- altaph dorado, 3 Jul 2013 @ 10:20am
  
  Response to: Coyne Tibbets on Jun 20th, 2013 @ 10:36am
  i want tobe your spay...it's serius and important
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:37am

when you've done something that on discovery, drops you in the shit, the only way to defend yourself is to spout more and more shit! the spying has done nothing as far as saving any lives is concerned, it has done nothing as far as defeating any plots or even discovering any that were about to or already up and running. this is nothing but pure bull shit and out and out lies! they would have been far better off keeping quiet, apologising to the people everywhere, not just in the USA and keeping their heads down for a while until it all blew over. as long as they didn't try anything similar again, the people would have gradually forgotten all about the way they have been taken for a ride, spied on and been accused of wrong doing, on the say so of a bunch of liars!
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- S. T. Stone, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:18am
  
  Re:
  when you've done something that on discovery, drops you in the shit, the only way to defend yourself is to spout more and more shit!
  
  This explains OOTB and a number of other trolls around here.
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- Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:36am
  
  Re:
  Having fallen face-first into the muck, it might be well for government functionaries who attempt public acts of retroactive damage control to remind themselves that an engaged pubic has a much greater aggregate IQ and breadth of insight than do a few gullible/grandstanding committee-bureaucrats who weren't selected for their astuteness in the first place, and who can be readily misled by audience-targeted, easily-swallowed pablum that fits the facts-as-presented.
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- TheLastCzarnian (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:09pm
  
  Re:
  So what you are saying is when you drop into the shit, the way out is to start spouting more shit and become a shit-geyser. Next you invert said shit-geyser, making you a sort of shit-propelled rocket which can then be blown over stable ground.
  
  Seems like a shitty way to go about things.
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Aztecian (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:54am

Criteria for Plot Foiling Credit
So the way I see it, if something almost happened but didn't, and the NSA was collecting information on it, then it goes on the list as "Foiled by the NSA".

Since they are evidently collecting all information about anything from anywhere, that means they are foiling everything that is foiled.

But doesn't that mean if something DOES happen the NSA FAILED to FOIL?

There is stuff happening all the time! Something should be done about all this shoddy plot foiling with our tax dollars!
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- Dirkmaster (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:53am
  
  Re: Criteria for Plot Foiling Credit
  So they are able to say that they foiled my plan to conqueor the world by threating the moon with a powerful laser in my volcano stronghold?
  
  Damn the NSA, AND those pesky kids!
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Zakida Paul (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:55am

Pesky facts
Getting in the way of government propaganda.

Gotta monitor that.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:57am

Two things jar with each other.

1) It is ok to lie about national security to those without the needed security clearance.

2) The NSA operations are transparent. (to whom? The FISA rubber stamp court?) No one is actually guarding the privacy of US citizens.

This whole business stinks. The only ones trying to justify it are those who benefit from the spying going on. What no one is doing is coming clean with what is going on. These reasons being given are one more sign of not being truthful with the American public and trying to continue with business as usual. Scare the public with the boogy man and say big brother is here to protect you.
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Ninja (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:09am

If they really helped stop any terrorist attack they'd be giving examples with details, not some random numbers of cases. And honestly you are spaying GODDAMN AMERICANS. Why would I bomb my own country?

*V of Vendetta"

Oh wait.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:22am

Did I say 50? I meant 100. No wait, 500. We stopped a thousand terrorist plots already.
Without the NSA secret surveillance we wouldn't have stopped those two thousand terrorist plots.
So remember folks, if we're not allowed to watch you everywhere all the time without oversight, those three thousand terrorist plots we stopped could have happened to you! Stopping thousands of terrorist plots every day isn't easy and we need your cooperation in harvesting your personal data.
Hell, we're stopping terrorist plots all the time. I just stopped one right while typing this.
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Jesse (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:22am

It would be worthwhile to add that these individuals were already on the radar due to old fashioned police work, not due to a dragnet.
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PlagueSD (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:30am

This world is already turned into "1984". Next step is to start the "Minority Report" program and start arresting terrorists before they even think of commiting any "acts of terror".
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- Berenerd (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:12pm
  
  Re:
  Have you not seen some of the foiled plots by the FBI where they did the planning and provided the materials?
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  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:08pm
    
    Re: Re:
    You're so right about that, there was a report just this week about that TWA flight that crashed in New York some years ago, that it was shot down by the government.
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Lord Binky, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:55am

Just being facetious
Regardless if they actually stop anyone else, we should celebrate the NSA as heros for saving us every day because they stopped themselves from helping the terrorists. It's the same right?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:04pm

The people involved did explore the idea, but gave it up on their own well before doing any serious planning,

probably because they considered the level of security and surveillance too high to warrant the risk.

It can be clamed, then that NSA monitoring, and the increased security in general stopped these people (and probably others) from considering these types of crimes.

Job done, one for NSA, zero for TD
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- Lord Binky, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:17pm
  
  Re:
  Or it can be claimed they found out they wouldn't be able to do anything theirselves. Job done, One for the education system, zero for everyone else.
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- Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:35pm
  
  Re:
  Certainly the ends justify the means!
  
  oh wait
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- John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:53pm
  
  Re:
  probably because they considered the level of security and surveillance too high to warrant the risk.
  
  Which would mean that they were aware of the formerly secret NSA programs. Which would mean that Snowden didn't reveal anything that Joe Random Terrorist didn't already know. Which would mean that the only people who were ignorant of these secret programs were the American people. Which would mean that Snowden is unambiguously a legitimate whistle-blower in any sense of the term. Which would mean that Snowden is a patriot.
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  - Rikuo (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 5:40pm
    
    Re: Re:
    I love it how, when a troll makes a statement, all you have to do is apply just the tiniest bit of logic and you can pick it apart.
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- Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 5:40pm
  
  Re:
  And the evidence you have for this claim is...?
  
  Oh.
  
  Right.
  
  Silly question.
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- Rikuo (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 5:42pm
  
  Re:
  It can also be argued that the increased level of surveillance actually encourages these terrorists. They will then view themselves as freedom fighters striking back against an oppressive and Orwellian government, and you know what? They'll be right.
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- Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:25pm
  
  Re:
  People shooting themselves in the head prevents terrorist acts. I know, because people have shot themselves in the head during the times when 50 terrorist acts were prevented, so it must be true.
  
  darryl - who, being an Australian, has absolutely no fucking idea what he's going on about American policy for - should support this continuing of his superior logic by shooting himself in the head.
  
  Don't worry, mate. Not even the solar panels will miss you.
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Berenerd (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:07pm

Duh!
They didn't go through with the plot because the FBI wasn't there to egg them on and supply the explosives.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Jul 2013 @ 10:23am

how can i do for being a us spay.....i know alotof information .
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