Former Top NSA Lawyer Blames Civil Libertarians For 9/11, Says Hype About NSA May Lead To A Repeat
from the fuck-the-4th-amendment,-live-in-fear,-bitches dept
Ah, Stewart Baker. We've mentioned him a few times in the past. He's the former Assistant Secretary for Homeland Security and General Counsel for the NSA. He's, as you may have guessed, strongly in the "pro-surveillance" camp, and has even attacked some of the journalists who revealed the NSA leaks, claiming that by revealing the truth they're no longer journalists, but advocates. He's taking part in a House Judiciary Committee hearing looking into oversight on the administration's use of FISA and his testimony is quite incredible. It goes way beyond what we've seen from others. While it repeats his baseless and confused attack that some journalists who were key players in this story were evil "advocates" rather than journalists, that's nothing compared to his lack of regard for the Constitution and basic civil liberties. In fact, he very clearly blames 9/11 on civil liberties advocates, and fears that all this talk about surveillance may lead to a repeat event.To be blunt, one of the reasons I'm here is that I fear we may repeat some of the mistakes we made as a country in the years before September 11, 2001. In those years, a Democratic President serving his second term seemed to inspire deepening suspicion of government and a rebirth of enthusiasm for civil liberties not just on the left but also on the right. The Cato Institute criticized the Clinton Administrations' support of warrantless national security searches and expanded government wiretap authority as "dereliction of duty," saying "[i]f constitutional report cards were handed out to presidents, Bill Clinton would certainly receive an F-an appalling grade for any president-let alone a former professor of constitutional law?" The criticism rubbed off on the FISA court, whose chief judge felt obliged to give public interviews and speeches defending against the claim that the court was rubber-stamping the Clinton administration's intercept requests.Got that? Anyone advocating for basic civil liberties is to blame for 9/11. Holy fuck. This kind of thinking is about as anti-American as I can think of. As we've discussed, protecting civil liberties is at the core of the American way of life. "Give me liberty or give me death" is the phrase that Patrick Henry chose, and apparently Stewart Baker believes the American motto should be "you're all going to die if you fight for civil liberties!" Shameful.
This is where I. should insert a joke about the movie "Groundhog Day." But I don't feel like joking, because I know how this movie ends. Faced with civil liberties criticism all across the ideological spectrum, the FISA court imposed aggressive new civil liberties restrictions on governments use of FISA information. As part of its "minimization procedures" for FISA taps, the court required a "wall" between law enforcement and intelligence. And by early 2001, it was enforcing that wall with unprecedented ferver. That was when the court's chief judge harshly disciplined an FBI supervisor for not strictly observing the wall and demanded an investigation that seemed to put the well-regarded agent at risk of a perjury prosecution. A chorus of civil liberties critics and a determined FISA court was sending the FBI a single clear message: the wall must be observed at all costs.
And so, when a law enforcement task force of the FBI found out in August of 2001 that al Qaeda had sent two dangerous operatives to the United States, it did ... nothing. It was told to stand down; it could not go looking for the two al Qaeda operatives because it was on the wrong side of the wall. I believe that FBI task force would have found the hijackers -- who weren't hiding -- and that the attacks could have been stopped if not for a combination of bad judgment by the FISA court (whose minimization rules were later thrown out on appeal) and a climate in which national security concerns were discounted by civil liberties advocates on both sides of the aisle.
And that's not the only example he uses. He goes back to the early days of organized US intelligence efforts, talking about how we "won" World War II by ignoring limitations on intelligence collections.
The Americans who fought World War II had a different view; they thought that intelligence couldn't be conducted under any but the most general legal constraints. This may have been a reaction to a failure of law in the run-up to World War II, when U.S. codebreakers were forbidden to intercept Japan's coded radio communications because section 605 of the Federal Communications Act made such intercepts illegal. Finally, in 1939, Gen. George C. Marshall told Navy intelligence officers to ignore the law. The military that followed made the officers look like heroes, not felons.Got that? Ignoring laws that protect your privacy and communications is good, because of one situation where intelligence agencies breaking the law helped the US in war. But that kind of justification is a justification that the government has the power to do anything it wants to achieve its goals. We would all be a lot "safer" if the government could randomly search homes and throw those it doesn't like in jail with no trial. And Stewart Baker could smugly sit in front of Congress with his best "this is my best grave face" and talk about how this "saves lives." But that's not how it works. We don't ignore the Constitution and basic civil liberties because "it makes us safer." Because it doesn't. It shows what hypocrites the US government can be, that it has no respect for the people who duly elected its leaders. That it has no respect for the Constitution. That it will go to any length to control the population, with vague scare stories of "but... but... terrorism."
Baker then moves on to argue that any public debate over the US government absolutely destroying the civil liberties of the public they're supposed to serve only creates problems, because any such discussion just gives bogey men more opportunities to avoid further dragnet surveillance:
Forty years later, though, we're still finding problems with this experiment. One of them is that law changes slowly while technology changes quickly. That usually means Congress has to change the law frequently to keep up. But in the context of intelligence, it's often hard to explain why the law needs to be changed, let alone to write meaningful limits on collection without telling our intelligence targets a lot about our collection techniques. A freewheeling and prolonged debate -- and does Congress have any other kind? -- will give them enough time and knowledge to move their communications away from technologies we've mastered and into technologies that thwart us. The result won't be intelligence under law; it will be law without intelligence.Basically, shut up with the debate, just let us go back to spying on fucking everyone. If we actually have to "debate" and "protect the Constitution," some "bad guys" might talk without us knowing about it. And then we'll all die.
Later in his remarks, he makes this point even clearer, insisting that "open debate" will cause "great harm."
In short, in both section 215 and section 702, the government has found a reasonable way to square intelligence-gathering necessities with changing technology. Now that they've been exposed to the light of day, these programs are not at all hard to justify. But we cannot go on exposing every collection technique to the light of day just to satisfy everyone that the programs are appropriate. The exposure itself will diminish their effectiveness. Even a fair debate in the open will cause great harm.Bullshit. We keep hearing this claim, and there's no evidence to support it at all. Most people doing really bad things have always suspected that these telco and internet services were watched closely by the NSA. Just look at how Osama bin Laden communicated with the outside world, and it's clear that Al Qaeda knew how to go to great lengths to avoid leaving revealing marks via phone or internet services, moving messages around on USB sticks, having computers with no internet connection, and sending people many miles away to upload and download things.
In the security world, people have long noted that "security by obscurity" is a recipe for trouble. A truly strong security system can withstand attack even if its details are public. The same holds true for intelligence gathering techniques. If they are truly justified and justifiable, they can withstand public scrutiny and public debate.
Later, he again argues that the openness of this debate has already harmed American interests, in part because European countries are worse than the US with their own surveillance efforts, but since only the Americans are having this open debate, European politicians can attack the US while knowing that their own -- even worse -- surveillance efforts are still secret.
He then tries to flip the whole thing around and argue that supporters of civil liberties are actually anti-technology, because they're trying to limit the government's use of technology. That's ridiculous, since many of the loudest supporters of civil liberties come from the tech and innovation communities. No one thinks the government shouldn't make efficient use of technology -- but that's very different from saying it's okay for the government to either convince or force companies to cough up all sorts of private data on everyone or risk the wrath of the US government. That's not a fair fight. The government has the power to compel people and companies to do things that they would not do otherwise, though I guess an extreme authoritarian like Baker either doesn't realize this or doesn't see it as a problem.
At the end, he makes a bunch of claims about how it's the US government's job to "protect" everyone -- though I'd like to see where that's laid out in the Constitution. As mentioned above, he makes some valid points that other countries are just as bad, if not worse, but that's hardly a compelling argument, because that just allows others to flip it around, and claim that the US has no moral high ground, since it's ignoring the civil liberties of the public -- something that Baker notes he directly supports in this testimony -- for some vague and impossible promises of "safety."
Baker's key claim is the same bogus one we've heard before: an undying belief in a supreme authoritarian government that gets to do whatever the hell it wants in the name of "national security." Civil liberties and basic Constitutional protections just get in the way, and ain't nobody got time for that.
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Filed Under: 4th amendments, 9/11, civil liberties, nsa, nsa surveillance, stewart baker
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the American public is waking up to the fact that an unfettered, unaccountable government is a dangerous thing.
Hopefully not too late.
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Furthermore, if NSA and/or FISA was forced to close down the man would be out of his current job and he sounds like he has enough baggage, not to be able to make it in a real court...
Besides: How old is this guy? It is one thing to long for a time when you were younger, but dreaming about a distant past he was never part of is a glaring lack of perspective...
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We're right
Thing is, even if he's right, we're still right. Freedom is worth even the occasional "extra" terrorist attack that might otherwise have been prevented.
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Re: We're right
The more they use it as a boogeyman, the more I think it was the us government's doing to create a boogeyman.
/take off tinfoil hat
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I have read many of Mr. Baker's papers/articles/ etc., and not once have I ever read in them what you are trying to do here with respect to his opinions. Hard to have a rational discussion when the predicate for such a discussion is totally off the mark.
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The US has been authoritarian in its approaches to foreign trade for a long time, trying to get foreign countries to act in the best interests of America rather than their own people. This is a major driver of terrorism both against America and within some countries.
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Clearly, Mike has no interest whatsoever in a "rational discussion." It's a shame. Techdirt could be a leader in this important conversation.
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Did you read this testimony? Because it's pretty clearly making just such a statement, as have many of Baker's previous works.
That you have not read in them what is obviously there may suggest more about your own position and belief than what is or is not in Mr. Baker's writings.
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Can you point to Baker's language that shows his "undying belief in a supreme authoritarian government that gets to do whatever the hell it wants in the name of 'national security'"??
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i guess you just skip over the big words and are left with a word salad of 'the' 'a' 'USA' 'fuck yeah!' 'motherfuckin' eagles, bitchez!'...
its always comfy inside the bubble...
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
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Re: Re: Re:
Authoritarianism ... regimes as political systems characterized by four qualities:
(1) "limited, not responsible, political pluralism"; that is, constraints on political institutions and groups (such as legislatures, political parties, and interest groups),
Secret laws, agencies ignoring/"reinterpreting" the law. check.
(2) a basis for legitimacy based on emotion, especially the identification of the regime as a necessary evil to combat "easily recognizable societal problems" such as underdevelopment or insurgency;
FOR DA CHILDREN! BUTBUTBUTERRORISTS! check.
(3) neither "intensive nor extensive political mobilization" and constraints on the mass public (such as repressive tactics against opponents and a prohibition of antiregime activity) and
2 party system, secret prisons, Manning, Snowden etc, govt. mouthpiece media. check.
(4) "formally ill-defined" executive power, often shifting or vague.[2]
CFAA. PATRIOT. CISPA. check.
This is the government Baker defend so vigorously. In the name of 2. we must strengthen 1 and 4, and ignore the acts of 3.
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This is fairly debatable...
The problem is that the NSA lacked transparency towards the FBI in the matter when the information would only be given part ways in a conversation. This was just one of the causes of 9/11. At the time, the US relied heavily on the FBI for domestic intel
There is a very good episode of PBS's Nova series on this problem the NSA has...the episode is called "The Spy Factory".
Mike you may gain a better perspective of the issues that the Bush Jr. administration went through due to the NSA's lack of transparency towards the federal government by watching this.
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Re: This is fairly debatable...
Doesn't help matters that the NSA is considered military and groups like the FBI, CIA, and the state Department are considered civilian (it's predecessor, AFSA, had a big problem with that).
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Re: Re: This is fairly debatable...
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Baker's actually absolutely right. If this country had no civil liberties and was the police state he dreams about, Islamic militants never would have attacked us in the first place. They hate us for our freedom, right? Take away the freedom, you get rid of the hate.
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Wow
Hold up.
If the programs aren't all that hard to justify, then: a)why were the programs kept secret in the first place [oh yeah, they're unconstitutional], b)why has the NSA been stonewalling any attempt to discuss their methodology [probably because it SUCKS ASS. See "51% foreignness"], and c) why do you keep acting like nothing has happened when everybody and their dog is now aware of at least part of your surveillance program (except the guys who work for the NSA because they can't access the websites to read the articles on the documents)? [because you might have people who actually work in the NSA start to realize that "oh shit, this stuff really goes against American principles", and start speaking out]
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Oh no! Anything but that!!!!
*clutches pearls* *faints*
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Holy f...ractals.
I think this is the first time I've seen Mike drop an f-bomb on an article.
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All the same, I think this situation does warrant the use of a vulgarity like that, and what's better is that Mike didn't resort to long for of the all-too-common "wtf?" remark we see nowadays.
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BUT so long as corporations have the data, gov't will too.
Now, skipping obvious points in between: I don't advocate returning to The Stone Age, BUT Google's spying, supposedly for only commercial purposes, is NOT necessary for its basic services nor for a healthy economy: we got along just fine -- better -- without it, and could again. So roll it back.
Corporations and gov't are both amoral monsters that must be kept chained. This focus on gov't isn't even half the battle while you leave key components of the spy grid free to operate, as if ALL spying isn't bad in and of itself.
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Re: BUT so long as corporations have the data, gov't will too.
That may be true. And since you don't have to use their services, you can totally avoid their spying. If Google's activities were nefarious and made their customers uncomfortable - their customers can go use someone else's services.
Our only option with the NSA is to move to Cuba - but I'm sure the NSA is spying on them too, so it may not help.
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Re: BUT so long as corporations have the data, gov't will too.
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In Ken's words:
As a statist, purpose of the criminal justice system is to convict and punish to the maximum extent possible people accused by the government. To determine whether someone has committed a brutal and dastardly crime, all you need to know is whether the government has said they did.
'Statist'...hmm...that's a pretty good term. Time to start using it more.
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Then let there be another 9/11
At this point, the terrorists have won.
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Huh?
The movie had a happy ending. This is what he's afraid of?
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Re: Huh?
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Re: Huh?
I had the same thought when reading that also.
If I recall the movie ended with Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell in love and discussing living happily ever after in Smalltown USA.
Is Stewart Baker actually afraid of the American Way??
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Re: Re: Huh?
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Again?
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Re: Again?
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Huh
"You didn't see the US, it was all their fault. They were walking around flaunting their ability to express themselves and worship freely! I had to do something about it!"
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Horrible Situation
Oh no! There was non-partisan support for increasing civil liberties!
That IS a big problem.
I think the last time that happened, a crap-load of tea ended up on Boston harbor.
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Re: Horrible Situation
Also, bureaucracy and a badly implemented footlenght principle between government and secret service is not necessarily civil rights per se (even though politicians might have implemented it based on pressure from civil right groups). Some might say that a breaking of governmental and secret service ties could lessen corruption if implemented correctly, but that apparently is not a concern for "mr. objective".
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Re: Re: Horrible Situation
I assume you mean the TAXPAYERS
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Their way of thinking not mine.
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A "wall?"
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Re: A "wall?"
Oh no...that was absolutely true. The FBI Counterintelligence was only given the recordings of the foreign nationals as they called Osama Bin Laden for orders. The NSA kept the recordings of Osama Bin Laden. So the Patriot Act was written up to actually MAKE the NSA hand over its data should the need arise. Of course the PRISM program got added to it which allowed it to be abused.
The Patriot Act was about agency to agency transparency and was only applied to foreign nationals in its infancy. Congress and the FISA courts kept piling on basically...that's when PRISM came along.
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Re: A "wall?"
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-Franklin D. Roosevelt
Stewart Bake is attempting to spread fear to the American People. The only thing I fear is Stewart Bake, and those like him.
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law without intelligence
So, if it is the responsibility to keep citizens safe, and as a citizen when I served in the military and the government sent me in harm's way ... of fuck it, I'm confused.
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Or he could have put it this way: "if we had the same way of life and liberties of Afganistan citizens then we would less likely to get attacked again."
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Invaded by the Russians, who were fought by an insurgency supported by the USA.
Russian withdrawal followed by Taliban take-over.
Invaded by a US led coalition. Resulting in a Taliban insurgency.
I imagine most Afghan citizens would like a some freedom from being attacked.
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Such as destroying the Constitution in exchange for a false sense of 'absolute security'.
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There are only two ways one can live: free or slave. There is no third option of security as that is a LIE.
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US Navy Intelligence
I don't know about other parts of this guy's testimony, but a document from the NSA website indicates that the above quote is just totally inaccurate.
"The first class of U.S. Navy intercept operators with classroom training began their intercept activities with the Japanese maneuvers of 1929. This proved good experience in preparing them for the Grand Maneuvers of 1930, when the U.S. Navy emphasized radio intercept operations."
Source:http://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic_heritage/center_crypt_history/pearl_harb or_review/follow_fleet.shtml
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https://twitter.com/csoghoian/status/353719958129217537
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stop this
read back through the 9/11 commission transcripts--the security state was going out of its way to exacerbate the firewall problems before 9/11 happened. They clearly could have communicated more about the threats they not only perceived but both the FBI and CIA had hands in supporting. That whole part of the story gives me a chill, & the number of security state reps who shouted "tear down that firewall" immediately after the event really, really frightened me. Even security-insider legislators like Hamilton & others responded to their "the firewall prevented us from connecting the dots" claims with incredulity at the time. They wanted this power, far beyond what reason would dictate, and I think the reasons have much less to do with "real" terrorist threats than with "potential" terrorist threats, i.e., anything certain security-state types perceive as threatening to some very powerful interest.
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how to prevent another 9/11
"Imagine an occupied America": http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=14377
Why did Osama Bin-laden attack on 9/11?
Bin Laden was furious that the Saudis would allow American troop bases to be established in the 'Holy Land'. He issued warnings. The warnings were ignored.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081026092130AAiPI2E
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Re: how to prevent another 9/11
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Re: how to prevent another 9/11
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Re: how to prevent another 9/11
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That's NOT the way it happened, Mr. Baker
The court records of the Moussaoui case provide, another, entirely different account of events that explain why the warrants were denied in the much-delayed, much-obstructed FBI hunt for the Flt. 77 hijackers in the weeks before 9/11. It wasn't The Wall that prevented FBI agents from obtaining FISA warrants, it was the fact that the CIA was withholding files on the soon to be Flt. 77 hijackers, and had been doing so since the day they entered the US on Jan. 15, 2000.
Shortly after the pair's arrival from an al-Qaeda planning summit in Kuala Lumpur that was surveilled by the CIA and a half doezen allied services, an FBI liaison officer drafted a warning cable, but she was ordered to withhold it by the Assistant Director of the CIA Counter-Terrorism Center (CIA-CTC). The CIA repeatedly obstructed subsequent FBI attempts to get its own surveillance of al-Hazmi and al-Midhar during the 18 months leading up to the attacks.
Here's an account based upon court records from the Moussaoui case: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023015400
Moussaoui Court Records Show CIA Suppression of Ongoing FBI Investigation
http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?freewheel=90962&sitesection=csmonitor&VID=24880 556
We've learned a great deal about 9/11 that confirmed earlier information that points to sabotage of FBI field investigations of the 9/11 hijackers known by both CIA and FBI to be inside the U.S. We also see a chain of malfeasance and dereliction of duty that reaches up into the White House in the handling of the known threat presented by the presence of the soon to be Flt.-77 hijackers, Nawaf Al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar.
The following summary also sheds light on the role that previously unpublicized NSA surveillance had, and how willful misinterpretation of FISA requirements led to FBI surveillance of the Flt. 77 plot being shut down. The "DE" references, below, refer to specific Defense Exhibits in the Moussaoui trial.
(Note: Much of what we now know about the 9/11 plot the material introduced by the defense. http://www.salon.com/2012/06/19/new_nsa_docs_reveal_911_truths/singleton/)
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Re: That's NOT the way it happened, Mr. Baker
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Wow. Just Wow.
There needs to be strict, common sense oversight based on verified indications and warnings. The problem is, any power created for clandestine use can be abused.
The erosion of America’s civil and personal liberties has taken on evil proportions. Obama’s abuse of power in particular, is unprecedented.
It’s not just the government, private omnipresent companies like Google are doing the same thing. They collaborate with government agencies in exchange for political favors.
The line between security and liberty has been crossed. It’s up to the citizens of America to kick their asses back over that line.
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