Rep. Nadler Claims 'You Bought It, You Own It' Is An 'Extreme Digital View'

from the oh-really? dept

Thu, Mar 20th 2014 10:56am — Mike Masnick

We've written about Rep. Jerry Nadler a few times. He recently became the "ranking member" (i.e., highest ranking Democrat) on the House subcommittee on intellectual property, which clearly made copyright maximalists happy. Nadler has a history of heavily supporting copyright maximalist positions, including pushing for what was effectively an RIAA bailout a couple years ago, and has previously supported ridiculous dangerous concepts like a new copyright for fashion designs (and idea that is both unnecessary and likely to harm the fashion industry).

He's already off to a dangerous start, introducing a bill to create artist resale rights (something he's done before. This is an issue we've written about many times, creating a ridiculous idea that people who buy artwork no longer own it outright. Any time they resell the artwork at auction, they might have to pay some of the proceeds back to the original artist. As with the fashion copyright idea, what this does is harm innovative new artists by favoring wealthy established artists. As we've discussed, this punishes investors who are willing to support new artists, taking away their incentive to invest in those artists, while at the same time decreasing the incentive for other artists to continue producing art (since now they get paid multiple times for the same work).

Given all that, it's quite clear what Rep. Nadler thinks about basic concepts like property rights: he's not a fan at all. In fact, in a rather astounding statement to the Association of American Publishers, Nadler claimed that the idea that "you bought it, you own it" is somehow extremist:

“The ‘you bought it, you own it’ principle is an extreme digital view and I don’t think it will get much traction,” he said, referring to the mantra of proponents of the right to resell digital goods.

Oh really? The specific discussion concerned people wanting to be able to resell used ebooks, just like they can resell regular books. But, really, the idea that "you bought it, you own it" is somehow extremist? Isn't that a fundamental concept in property rights? In fact, we've highlighted how copyright maximalists are trying to destroy property rights by denying people the basic ownership rights over things they bought.

It seems extremely troubling when such a key member of the House subcommittee on intellectual property has such a negative view of our basic property rights.

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Filed Under: artist resale rights, copyright, digital, ebooks, jerry nadler, ownership, property rights, you bought it you own it

64 Comments

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rw (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 9:50am

So, according to this moron, the land I bought isn't really mine or my descendants? I thought that property ownership was one of the things this country was based on.
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- crade (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:14am
  
  Re:
  What he is trying to say is that only extremists apply property rights to digital merchandise. As per usual, he doesn't need to convince, only excuse. He can claim whatever ridiculous thing he wants as an excuse for making our lives miserable.
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- Rich, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:17am
  
  Re:
  Well, no, not when they can use eminent domain to take it away and give it to Wal-Mart.
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  - John Fenderson (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:35am
    
    Re: Re:
    Yes, and that's terrible. But even on those cases, they do at least have to compensate you for the theft.
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    - btrussell (profile), 22 Mar 2014 @ 4:05am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      What happens when you quit paying rent(property tax)? Here in Canada legal proceedings start after two years of not paying rent.
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- The Mighty Buzzard (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:18am
  
  Re:
  It's a trap! This is all a rope-a-dope to get us starting to think of intellectual property as property.
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  - Pragmatic, 21 Mar 2014 @ 4:34am
    
    Re: Re:
    But he just said it's not. If you bought it, you don't own it, therefore it's not property. Remember, people think of selling items such as CDs as "selling," not licensing. This is not about property rights per se, it's about extending licensing rights.
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- sorrykb (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:22am
  
  Re:
  So, according to this moron, the land I bought isn't really mine or my descendants? I thought that property ownership was one of the things this country was based on.
  
  Not to derail the thread (This Representative is, if not a moron, still a bad representative for the people and his statements are ridiculous), but...
  
  Taking land from some people and giving it to others is also one of the things this country was based on. Just ask the descendants of the people who once lived on your land.
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  - JEDIDIAH, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:38am
    
    Completely off topic...
    My land was not permanently occupied by anyone before European settlers moved in. European notions of property didn't exist here. What notions did exist here weren't necessarily consistent with other tribes either.
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    - John Fenderson (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:54am
      
      Re: Completely off topic...
      However, the Europeans certainly had the concept of ownership, and it seems reasonable to judge their behavior by their own standards. And their standards say it was theft (or would say that if they recognized the natives as human beings).
      
      Remember that the main justifications for stealing the land were twofold: the natives were subhuman savages, and they were criminally underutilizing the land they lived on.
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- monkeygrudge, 20 Mar 2014 @ 3:42pm
  
  Re:
  You mean after the "founders" stole said property from the original inhabitants?
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  - monkeygrudge, 20 Mar 2014 @ 3:44pm
    
    Re: Re:
    umm..this comment would have been more pertinent had i posted it four hors ago...
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- David, 21 Mar 2014 @ 2:31am
  
  Re:
  If there was something like "you bought it, you own it" to the government, there would be no legal basis for property taxes.
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- Pragmatic, 21 Mar 2014 @ 4:32am
  
  Re:
  Hold on a moment... he says that the �you bought it, you own it� principle is an extreme digital view. Therefore he seems to think that 'you made it, you own it' is not an extreme digital view, right?
  
  How is that reasonable?
  
  Remember this: Edging toward the fully licensed world?
  
  We're nearly there.
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Ninja (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 10:51am

Makes sense. I bet he'd be happy to know GM will be taking a chunk next time he sells his car. Or whoever built his house now has a share on how much you get out of selling it regardless the fact, you know, you PAID EVERY SINGLE CENT.

Apply his ideals to his own property then ask him again if he thinks its extremist.
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- Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:01am
  
  Re:
  Of course none of this applies to him, that's why he supports these bullshit ideas!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:02am

So intellectual property is property but ownership cannot be transferred ?

If it cannot be transferred how can it be stolen ?
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- JEDIDIAH, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:08am
  
  Raving monarchist.
  Property exists. It just doesn't exist for us little people. Property is only for Lords and Kings and the modern day equivalent of the British East India Company.
  
  Property rights only matter for the 1% and everyone else is subservient to their whims.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:16am
    
    Re: Raving monarchist.
    Times when TD needs a sad but true button.
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  - The Mighty Buzzard (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:26am
    
    Re: Raving monarchist.
    My guns are property that also help me defend my property rights. The meta aspect amuses me.
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- Jeremy Lyman (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 7:33am
  
  Re:
  With a tape recorder and a pipe wrench?
  "Tell me about your idea..." *Whack!*
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:08am

the problem lies more with those who put him in the position to be able to do this, when it is plainly obvious he doesn't have a clue!!
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Shmerl, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:10am

The guy is evil.
"What yours is mine". That's what he says.
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- Calvin (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 3:26pm
  
  Re: The guy is evil.
  more like "What's yours we share, what's mine is mine"
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SolkeshNaranek (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:12am

negative view?
It seems extremely troubling when such a key member of the House subcommittee on intellectual property has such a negative view of our basic property rights.

It is not so much a negative view he came up with on his own, it is more of a "purchased" negative view sold to him by copyright extremists.

I wonder, now that it appears he is "bought and paid for" if the copyright industry thinks "you bought it, you own it" applies?
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- crade (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:15am
  
  Re: negative view?
  Sold to him? More likely they pay him to have it!
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  - DCL, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:18am
    
    Re: Re: negative view?
    Does that mean he "owns" it and can re-sell that view to others?
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Crazy Canuck, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:28am

That old Ford you want to sold, did you give a portion of the money to Ford? After all, their artists/engineers designed the look of aesthetics of the car.

How about reselling your home? I'm sure the architect would love a piece of that action too.
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- Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:52pm
  
  Re:
  realtors tried (unsucessfully) a few years ago to make it a crime to sell a house without a realtor. they justified it with the argument that selling a house was far too complex for the average person.
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  - jupiterkansas (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 2:19pm
    
    Re: Re:
    hmmm... and I wonder why it's so complicated? Maybe to force people to use realtors?
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  - That One Guy (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 4:08pm
    
    Re: Re:
    If people are able to sell the house(s) on their own, quite obviously it isn't too complex.
    
    Now, I can see why people might want to have a realtor deal with all the hassle and paperwork involved, rather than having to do it all on their own, but to make it illegal to cut the realtors out of the loop just smacks of protectionism.
    
    Ah, gotta love those parasitic middlemen...
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:31am

If the artist is entitled to a cut of future sales, does destroying art you bought become a crime? Could the artists, or more likely the copyright owner, sue for the loss of future income?
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- JEDIDAH, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:41am
  
  Not a fan. Just have it around.
  You know. After I heard the EU nonsense about cheese names being outlawed I wanted to dispose of a bottle of Dom in the most disrespectful means possible. Kind of along the lines of "I fart in your general direction" but much more crude.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:32am

It's an attack on our right to own property. Take a car for example. If Rep. Nadler had his way, we wouldn't full 'own' our cars, because the car's electronic systems have copyrights and patents on them.

If those systems also use some form of DRM, you're potentially committing a felony if you attempt to fix your own car.
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aethercowboy (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:41am

Does this view of Nadler's also apply to big business' purchase of congresspeople?
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- Jeremy Lyman (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 7:36am
  
  Re:
  It's not a purchase it's a license fee. If you're wondering why your representation seems to suck so bad, you're probably out of contract.
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avideogameplayer, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:46am

Intellectual property implies a person had intellect to begin with...

Why don't these guys admit that there HASN'T been an ORIGINAL idea from any of them for the past 100 years?

Anything that's out there today has been recycled so many times it's not even funny...

'Based on...'

'Something, something...' THE SEQUEL!

And how many times can you say 'I love and wanna fuck you' in song form?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 11:47am

Send a Soveriegn Citizen to his house
I assume that Rep Nadler owns a house, and might even have paid off the entire mortgage by now. If so, we need to send a Sovereign Citizen over to his house when him and his family are out.

For those who don't know, 'Sovereign Citizens' are a group of radical Americans who claim that the law doesn't apply to them. They frequently do things like show up at an empty house with a gun when the owner is out and then offer to 'sell' them their home back. Because you know, they claim the law doesn't apply to them, and you left your house empty and unattended, so they own it now by rights of finders keepers.

Maybe after a visit by such a Sovereign citizen, the idea of 'you bought it you own it' won't seem like such a 'radical' idea to Rep Nadler anymore.
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- silverscarcat (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:00pm
  
  Re: Send a Soveriegn Citizen to his house
  That...
  
  ...
  
  That's a pretty good idea, actually.
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- Pragmatic, 21 Mar 2014 @ 4:38am
  
  Re: Send a Soveriegn Citizen to his house
  Ah, but isn't Sovereign Citizen an oxymoron? Citizenship is a legal status and if the law doesn't apply to them...
  
  Whoops! They didn't think that through, did they?
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  - Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 6:03am
    
    Re: Re: Send a Soveriegn Citizen to his house
    Well, if you are sovereign in your own right, you carry and 'emit' to yourself your own autonomous sovereignity. Getting people to 'recognise' that sovreignity is another matter altogether ;) That's where the gun becomes handy, but it's only as good as your line of sight/area of influence!
    
    Can we charge them for all the 'public good' services they utilise, such as roads, etc?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:13pm

Translation: We should be more like the Soviet Union because a few aging rockers aren't making money anymore.
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Just Another Anonymous Troll, 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:15pm

Something that Rep. "Nincompoop" Nadler needs to understand...
When I buy a book, I am purchasing intellectual property. The $15 I pay for it is me licensing one copy of the book from the author, unless you want me to believe that the costs of making a book are $15 plus the profit margin. One should think that when I license one copy, I should be able to do what I wish with it, be it read it, leave it on my shelf, give it to a friend, or burn it. I am not allowed to copy it, because I only licensed one copy and copying it (and distributing it, not some evil copyright maximalist here) would constitute infringement. For all practical purposes, I own the rights to one copy, which means that I should be able to sell the rights to that copy (I.e. Give a friend the book) without having to pay the author. If the author sells me the rights to her book, I can sell those rights without having to pay her a penny, unless such a thing was specified in the contract. This is not extreme. This is perfectly logical.
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Paul A'Barge (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:22pm

Nadler the Hutt
Nadler is Jabba the Hutt without the cleverness.

Being a DemoNcrat head of anything in the House is like nuts on a cow. Watch him, but lose no sleep.
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jupiterkansas (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:23pm

And Jerry Nadler's fifth largest campaign donor is...

TV/Movies/Music $21,600

Every time a politician is mentioned on TechDirt, it's guaranteed one of their top five donors will be the MPAA or RIAA.
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Ima Fish (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:23pm

I assume if confronted, the great representative would argue that he's only talking about copyright. And merely because you license a limited right to use a copy of a copyrighted work, does not necessarily mean you have an automatic right to transfer that license. That sounds so reasonable, right?

The problem with that explanation is that nearly everything sold nowadays has IP issues. Your car is filled with copyrighted software and patented technology. Your house was designed from a copyrighted blue print. Heck, according to the Nadler, even the shirt on your back should be copyrighted!

So under Nadler's view, we don't own hardly anything we buy. And that, at least to me, is an extremest position.
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Gwiz (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:32pm

"The 'you bought it, you own it' principle is an extreme digital view and I don�t think it will get much traction," he said"

Hmmm. I thought Chris Dodd already set Congress straight on this issue after the SOPA vote when he realized that he didn't actually "own" the Congresspeople he "bought".

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120120/14472117492/mpaa-directly-publicly-threatens-pol iticians-who-arent-corrupt-enough-to-stay-bought.shtml
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:38pm

If we cannot BUY a movie file online then it seems to me that Amazon (et al) is committing fraud when they offer consumers the oppty to BUY a downloadable movie.

There's a difference in price between RENTing a movie online and BUYing a movie online. Consumers understand the reason for the difference in price: BUYing means they can keep it forever or give it away / sell it / lend it. But now we are expected to believe that the word BUY no longer means what it has always meant?

Nonsense - Amazon clearly offers us the ability to BUY a movie or RENT a movie because they know very well that those words have a specific meaning in the minds of consumers and that consumers are willing to pay a premium to have the rights associated with BUYing that movie.

Amazon doesn't offer that movie for LICENSE because they know that it holds much less value to the consumer.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 12:49pm

Persons need to be mindful of the fact that the interests associated with property are easily modified via contract. For example, in the purchase of real property you can "own" a piece of land, but what such ownership comprises can be in a multitude of "flavors", i.e., fee simple, life estate, easement, leasehold, etc. In all you "own" (a word that is easy to use but wide ranging) something; however, the alienability, if at all, of each are not at all equivalent.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2014 @ 1:16pm

You ONLY OWN...
Things you no longer have to spend a dime on to keep.

Take your own home and land... you technically just rent them from the government.

You can't even develop you land the way you want... that's regulated too.
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- jupiterkansas (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 2:18pm
  
  Re: You ONLY OWN...
  I read somewhere that you only truly own that which you can carry with you at a brisk pace.
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  - Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 6:05am
    
    Re: Re: You ONLY OWN...
    Or defend with a gun at more-or-less a single point?
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Shadow-Slider, 20 Mar 2014 @ 1:20pm

White Paper
Ever since Bruce Lehman's white paper in 1991 copyright maximalists have considered anyone who values personal or private property as more important than IP as an extremist.
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- Shadow-Slider, 20 Mar 2014 @ 1:31pm
  
  Re: White Paper
  1993 not 1991
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bshock, 20 Mar 2014 @ 2:03pm

let the buyer beware
If Representative Nadler thinks that "you bought it, you own it" is an extreme attitude, then his, er, "wealthy contributors" might want to keep a close eye on him.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 20 Mar 2014 @ 8:27pm

The cartels clearly have bought him and own his vote.
Why are they always giving corps more rights than citizens?
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G Thompson (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 2:07am

I'm thinking the MPAA, RIAA, and other 'contributors' to this guys wallet ... oops... election funds wont be happy with this idea since to them its

They bought him... they own him
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Prisoner 201, 21 Mar 2014 @ 2:45am

This TED talk by Johanna Blakely should be mandatory for all legislators: Lessons from fashion's free culture.
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Rex (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 3:46am

Communism?
Am I wrong in seeing this as a communist point of view? He's wanting to abolish the concept of personal property.

Am I wildly off base?
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- Pragmatic, 21 Mar 2014 @ 4:45am
  
  Re: Communism?
  Yes, you are wildly off base, Rex. The reason is, he's not advocating state ownership of property and the means of production, he's advocating corporate sovereignty. This means that all our digital purchases are belong to them and we can't do anything with them without permission. The whole "infringement is theft" notion is a part of this, they're trying to get us to accept it as common sense, then comply like good little sheep. No breach of the Constitution to see here, move along...
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  - Rex (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 5:46am
    
    Re: Re: Communism?
    So it's Communism for company's? Maybe we should create a new name for that.
    
    'Companism'?
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    - G Thompson (profile), 21 Mar 2014 @ 10:21am
      
      Re: Re: Re: Communism?
      Feudalism
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2014 @ 6:13am

Recoup loss?
So if I sell the precious IP I "bought" for less than I paid for it I can then get some of my money back from the entity I "bought" it from?
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Anonymous, 22 Mar 2014 @ 7:05pm

As someone once said...
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
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