Obama Admits 'We Tortured Some Folks' But Doesn't Seem Too Concerned
from the because-making-it-folks-makes-it-okay dept
Last May, in President Obama's big speech at the National Defense University -- where he tried to establish his legacy as being the president to "end" the US's role in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq -- he did admit to the fact that the US "compromised our basic values -- by using torture to interrogate our enemies." That admission got somewhat lost in the wider scope of what he was saying, and thus, to this day, many government officials still refuse to call the CIA's torture program "torture."However, at a press conference today, President Obama appeared to more breezily admit to it by noting "we tortured some folks." That seems like a... rather informal way to talk about war crimes, committed by the US government, which Obama himself refused to do anything about. Again, we feel the need to remind people that the only person in jail concerning the CIA's torture program... is the guy who blew the whistle on the program, John Kiriakou.
And, of course, the obedient White House press corps that Obama was speaking to didn't seem to probe. As Conor Friedersdorf points out, a good question a reporter might have asked in response would have been: How many people who were involved in torturing "folks" are still employed at the CIA?
Meanwhile, the president also said that he completely stands behind CIA director John Brennan, even following the revelations of the spying scandal (and, more importantly, Brennan's lies about the scandal).
“I have full confidence in John Brennan,” Obama said in a White House press conference. “I think he has acknowledged — and directly apologized to [Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman] Sen. [Dianne] Feinstein — that CIA personnel did not properly handle an investigation into how certain documents that were not authorized to be release to the Senate staff got somehow into the hands of the Senate staff.Yes, but John Brennan also angrily insisted that no spying was done (multiple times) and claimed that it was the Senate staffers his CIA employees were spying on who had broken the law, and even referred them to the DOJ for possible criminal prosecution -- all without any basis at all. Brennan hasn't shown that he's interested in "learning lessons" or "resolving mistakes." He took a reflexively bogus position, lying to defend the CIA. And this isn't the beginning. Much of this came about because of Brennan's earlier attempts to shred the Senate Intelligence Committee's report on how "we tortured some folks" by insisting it was inaccurate. It was only when the Senate Intelligence Committee was given (apparently by accident) an internal CIA report that confirmed their own findings, that Brennan was questioned about this, leading the CIA to start spying on the staffers.
“It’s clear from the [inspector general] report that some very poor judgment was shown in terms of how that was handled," Obama added. "Keep in mind, though, that John Brennan was the person who called for the IG report, and he’s already stood up a task force to make sure that lessons are learned and mistakes are resolved."
This isn't the kind of thing you just wave away. All of this -- the torture, the coverup, the lying and the spying -- are pretty big deals. And it's immensely troubling that the insider DC response seems to be "eh, a few mistakes were made, but it's okay."
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Filed Under: barack obama, cia, john brennan, lying, torture, torture report
Reader Comments
The First Word
“So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
(To be fair, we outsource our torture so we can claim that "we" don't torture.)We are now a country that spies sweepingly upon its own people.
We are now a country that executes, that suspends rights, that detains indefinitely without due process.
We are now a country where crimes against humanity are ignored, but daring to expose those crimes is jailed.
We're now a country where "terrorism" = dissident, where "national security" and "classified" = "because I said so".
We're now a country with a different justice system for civilians, for law enforcement and for those with money.
We're now a country where homes are commonly raided (and dogs shot) on a rumor, and people are disappeared for having a similar name to a person-of-interest.
We're now a country where money given to representatives decide what causes get representation and action. (No, your taxes don't count.)
To paraphrase Falling Down, We're the bad guy now?...How did that happen?
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Anyway, Aachen awards a yearly "Karlspreis" in tradition of Charles the Great for efforts uniting Europe.
What tradition are we looking at here? Charles the Great basically united Europe by being the "Saxon Slaughterer", destroying their religious identity by sawing down their holy oak and executing thousands of Saxons unwilling to convert to Christianity on its stump.
You just need to take these prizes with a doze of cynicism.
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Nobel Prize.
I guess he sure showed them.
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Color me surprised.
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'Some folks'
That's a disgusting remark to a despicable act.
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Re: 'Some folks'
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So which laws are actually still valid?
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Re: So which laws are actually still valid?
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Re: Re: So which laws are actually still valid?
HERE is the common thread in all these issues:
you either believe:
A. the 'best and brightest' in the positions of power are simply fucking up, not knowing what they are doing, stupid beyond belief, ill-informed, and unable to discern just what in tarnation the 99% want...
or,
B. these guys and dolls know EXACTLY what they are doing, which is FEIGN concern, talk the talk, lead without followers, and bend EVERY law, fund, tax-break, and advantage to the 1% puppetmasters...
no doubt, there *are* some idiots, fools, and tools who are used by the puppetmasters of Empire, but the ones making the rules and running the show know EXACTLY what they are doing to fuck over the 1% EVERY FUCKING DAY...
do you understand the depths of their perfidy and corruption ? ? ?
a lying scumbag like brennan is a FUCKING HERO to Empire ! ! ! he will be REWARDED, just like all the torturers and legal whores who ignored law and morality to torture and kill for Empire: REWARDED, not prosecuted...
HOW MANY TIMES do you have to see that pattern repeated before you get what's going on ? ? ?
the sleeper must awaken...
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Re: Re: Re: So which laws are actually still valid?
grrr
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Re: Re: Re: So which laws are actually still valid?
Also, why are there not more than two possibilities. It is either A or B, but nothing else - no way.
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'learning lessons'
It's far too easy to get caught up in someone's trick narrative. That's why I sow my own in the form of subversive short stories about politics and business issues. Consider it a vaccination, but first you have to read some of them.
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Gotta wonder
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So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
We are now a country that spies sweepingly upon its own people.
We are now a country that executes, that suspends rights, that detains indefinitely without due process.
We are now a country where crimes against humanity are ignored, but daring to expose those crimes is jailed.
We're now a country where "terrorism" = dissident, where "national security" and "classified" = "because I said so".
We're now a country with a different justice system for civilians, for law enforcement and for those with money.
We're now a country where homes are commonly raided (and dogs shot) on a rumor, and people are disappeared for having a similar name to a person-of-interest.
We're now a country where money given to representatives decide what causes get representation and action. (No, your taxes don't count.)
To paraphrase Falling Down, We're the bad guy now?...How did that happen?
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Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
I am not the country.
Please correct the royal WE with the US Federal Government.
I prefer consensual relationships and exchange.
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Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
To be fair, I don't remember my history very well. Once the Soviet forced moved into Berlin, and Germany surrendered to the allies, were the civilians of Germany treated well by the allies, or were they held accountable (or at least shown contempt) for the actions of their government.
Your notions of consent have been forsaken. After all is not the our government heralded to all as "by the people"? We are those people, and if history serves, we'll be tarred and feathered regardless of our actual guilt.
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Re: Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
ugh.
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Re: Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
In answer to your question, many German soldiers were employed in the rebuilding and governance of West Germany and members of the general population were not accused of war crimes simply because they were powerless to do anything about it. That is simply ridiculous and your assertion relative to US citizens being held responsible for sitting idly by is equally ridiculous.
Your case does not have a leg to stand upon, history does not serve, and we will not be tarred and feathered regardless of guilt. In summary, I think you're full of shit.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
Similarly, the Treaty of Versailles was written without consideration of its impact on the people of Germany and Prussia. To the end, the German homefront was advised that the was was both righteous and going well. It was rather a surprise when Bismark surrendered.
I may have chosen a bad example with WWII, but it doesn't mean necessarily that we can expect fair treatment. Only that we should hope that, should we be left to the mercy of forces from abroad that they will recognize that we did indeed have little power, more importantly we should hope that they will have compassion, something for which the human species has shown to lack for anyone outside their personal circle of friends.
But whatever. You seem more easily swayed by a bad example than a good one. On the premise "If A then B" one cannot assume that because not A, ergo not B.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
My response was not about being swayed by bad example, it was correcting said bad example and the ridiculous predictions.
False dichotomy is common and usually a fallacy.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#Responsibility_and_collective_guilt
A whole PR-campaign was orchestrated to literally tell the German citizens: "These atrocities were your fault. You stood by and did nothing, you let it happen". Posters were put up in German town and cities and films screened showing the horrible images of the atrocities and blaming the German population. The campaign also included forced tours of the concentration camps, even exhuming mass graves.
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Nearly everyone, including the US, turned them away.
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And yes, to give the Germans credit, or rather to discredit the rest of the western world, antisemitism was pandemic. Everyone hated the Jews.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
I've already seen instances from Europe where the American people are held personally responsible for capital punishment, particularly those who were posthumously exonerated. So it wouldn't surprise me if we are held personally responsible for other crimes, such as the use of torture against POWs and persons of intelligence interests, or for that matter, the employment of mercenaries (such as the Blackwater / Xe / Academi security company.
I expect, were we to fall under the authority of the EU or the UN, they'd make an example of the people of the US to discourage future peoples from sitting idly by, not that that's going to change things. I, for one, certainly have resistance to the idea of getting SWATted or disappeared into a dark detainment site in the name of protesting my government.
Not unless I could cause some spectacular and world-changing mischief first.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
Not even close.
You are doing a disservice to those who raise their voices against such bad behaviors,
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Applied Godwinism.
I'm not sure if you're talking to me. I haven't mentioned the Jewish Holocaust or the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem even once.
Because of Godwin's Law as a known phenomenon in contemporary discourse, I've taken to practicing what I call applied Godwinism, which is to, rather than offering a general comparison between a person and Hitler (or a questionable political action to the Arbeitslager program, or a particular war catastrophe to the Hiroshima bombing), I like to compare specific traits to specific traits, and specific events to specific events. Despite common caricaturizations, WWII was a big, eventful world process in which there many things happen and there are many examples useful for juxtaposition to current events. Not all roads lead to the Holocaust. Many do, but only if you stay on that road.
If you want a Godwinian comparison that does lead there, I'll offer you this: In Germany they looked at historic atrocities and said "It can't happen here." And no, we're not yet rounding up people and putting them in work camps, but we're seeing a lot of the symptoms, and we DO have black sites to which we disappear our dissenters. We do pack our undesirables into impacted prisons. We DO round unsuspecting immigrants into labor camps in which they're paid a pittance and are contracted in such a way that they cannot escape, and we not only condone but encourage forced labor practices abroad such as at the Foxconn site that produces our Playstations and iPhones.
The soil is fecund for another holocaust here in the US, or (more likely) instigated abroad by the US. The only thing that needs to happen is another secret interpretation of the law be used to declare a specific demographic as Lebensunwertes Leben. As far as you or I know, this has already happened, and we've been working the ovens for years.
If you want to complain that contemporary events might steal the thunder of the tragedy that was the German holocaust, feel free. I, for one, would prefer that bit of history to not repeat itself ever again anywhere, thanks.
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Re: Applied Godwinism.
"Once the Soviet forced moved into Berlin, and Germany surrendered to the allies, were the civilians of Germany treated well by the allies, or were they held accountable (or at least shown contempt) for the actions of their government"
What were you referring to then?
Do you think the citizens of Israel will held accountable for the actions of their government? This is a more plausible scenario due to their mandatory military service.
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Re: Re: Applied Godwinism.
Regarding my own question (It was a question, I just was failing to use question marks at the time.) When I referred to "the actions of their [the German people's] government", I was referring to a set of actions that includes, but was not limited to their use of death camps. War, being a messy thing, is often rife with war crimes, some of which were perpetuated by the allies as well, yet still fell under fire during the Nuremberg trials. Among those was the occasional use of torture in the interrogation of common POWs (not just non-uniformed spies).
Coming back to the present, legal council to the Bush administration had advised the Oval office that the Geneva Conventions were outdated, that unlawful combatants didn't have to be afforded the same rights and accordances given to POWs, as if these accommodations were privileges. I don't agree with this interpretation. I wasn't told about it when the interpretation was implemented. I didn't know about US use of torture until the Abu Graib photos. And yet, I have no doubt that I will personally be held responsible and will suffer punitive sanctions as
I tend to refer to WWII because it's a war I know about more than most others (including the Vietnam war, for which I had less study in college, and the Gulf War, that I experienced through CNN and other news channels). It seems due to the events of the German Holocaust, my speculation seemed more loaded to you. It shouldn't be. WWII was one circumstance in which the Allies tried to be measured in how they handled the remains of the Axis powers. It's our example of a best-case scenario should the US ever have to answer for its crimes.
Frankly, We The People are responsible for the transgressions of the state, yet we personally are not empowered to actually do anything about it. It sucks to be us, but it doesn't suck to be us as much as it sucks to be the victims of the United States. That's what we get for having a bunch of psychopaths in office. (including those for whom I personally voted. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Feinstein.)
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Re: Re: Re: Applied Godwinism.
I still think that We The People are not personally responsible for the actions of our government, it's not like they ask us for input. No, it is We The Corporations that are responsible. Pulling congressional strings like some sick marionette show put on for the benefit of the 1%.
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Re: So...we are now a country that just... tortures.
It might also have happened a little bit earlier.
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Sure it is, it's the direction our culture has been heading for a long time now, and any sort of Power just continues to do so, and push perception (or lack thereof) further in that direction. Enough people either buy it, or are so conditioned to helplessness, all we do in small numbers is write about it and sign petitions. And there may be enough institutional inertia here that we will never swing back towards non-police-state government and more than a handful of the elected acting like statesmen more than politicians.
As far as Obama goes, hey, it works for the other party so well, why not? They can say the most blatantly absurd things, and they fly.
*(Not that I consider Obama (or many Dems) appreciably different from the Republicans, excepting he's their target as a Democrat, and therefore a nominal left/liberal/progressive. Despite that he's mostly farther right than Reagan, and a lot of his policies are those of former Republican presidents.)
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Statute of limitations just expired?
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Aaron Swartz
Obama says that not only are those responsible not going to be prosecuted--they're not even losing their jobs. Because, hey, they apologized. And terrorism.
This is the same administration that sought to send Aaron Swartz to prison on federal charges. I am so goddamned disgusted.
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Re: Aaron Swartz
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questions questions
Is it because of who is the current president?
Is it because of the political party in power of the executive branch?
The fact that people don't want to believe those in power of this country are capable of what they did?
Are people just too accustomed with politicians and other high officials abusing their power that media/common people have ceased to care?
Is the dissemination of information being controlled too well that people just don't feel it is important enough to make a big deal about government entities breaking the law?
Do people feel like they can't change anything so they don't act, or think someone else will do it?
I know that I tend to fall into the last category myself too often.
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Re: questions questions
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Re: questions questions
Revolutionaries are not those of us who still have something to live for outside of the change of the nation. Revolutionaries are not those who are willing to risk getting caught, tortured, disappeared and killed, but those who have nothing left to lose. Revolutionaries are those who, when caught, regret only that they had one life to give.
I suspect that's where Snowden is. I expect that is how he's come to peace with the possibility that he will fall into the hands of the US Government and ultimately Room 101. He's come to terms with losing everything.
Revolutionaries are generally young and able-bodied, and mostly emerge from having everything ripped from them. The US creates such people all the time when they strike civilian targets and lay waste to familes. Those that remain are new recruits.
I would guess that you and I are the philosphers. Our role is to speak about what will happen due to consequence, being very careful not to endorse any particular front, partisan activity or army, lest we become persons of interest. Our role if we wanted to play dangerously, would be to highlight those targets where the system is particularly vulnerable. But most of the time I'm too uneducatated to know such things.
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More people than you think (some are even americans!) read a variety of sources looking for corroboration before giving credence to a story or event reported. So you might want to remove your blinders and take a good look around.
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Re: questions questions
"Do people feel like they can't change anything so they don't act, or think someone else will do it?"
...which is an illusion (the people really are the most powerful force in US politics when they get their act together).
It's also why I have a pet peeve about people proclaiming that there's nothing that can be done. It's pure self-fulfilling prophecy that needs to stop, and right now.
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Re: Re: questions questions
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Re: Re: questions questions
If you're meaning to imply that there are legitimate vectors by which to petition representatives, voice grievances and set things right, I, and I suspect many of us, are skeptical.
But go ahead. Surprise me.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: questions questions
If there was anything with which we (or at least I) could get a reasonable result-to-effort ratio, we'd be on it already. Case in point, all the pounding we are doing to plead with the FCC to reclassify broadband as a telecommunications service seems to be doing diddly compared to the NCTA and its associates' hand around Wheeler's balls.
We can plead and implore all we want, but money is the only thing with a voice in the United States.
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To extrapolate from Kennedy, when peaceful revolution becomes similarly infeasible, in which it is still possible to petition your government for redress of grievances, yet doing so does very, very little to the point of being negligible, that should make violent revolution inevitable as if peaceful revolution were impossible.
Sadly, there are circumstances in which people fall for the notion that the existence of a proper channel legitimizes it. In war-games if I leave the gate of my fortress open (into an obvious kill-box) most opponents storm the gate anyway, rather than siege the walls.
I suspect we won't see true reform in the United States until we protest with wooden shoes and fire.
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Of course, the reason Obama keeps "standing behind" these guys is that he gave some of those orders, too.
I don't care about Obama getting impeached over Obamacare, but why the hell isn't anyone raising the question of impeaching him for the mass surveillance and torture issues? I mean, is US Russia or China now? By not prosecuting the "bad guys" inside the government, US is no better now.
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Torture
Then we can address the torturers.
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We all know how those stories end. With the other countries rising up to overthrow the evil one, when they refuse to take it from them anymore.
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Re:
Didn't anyone listen in history class?
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Torture? Not too concerning. Lying about it? Very concerning.
Reason 1: The Geneva Conventions. Torture and other mistreatment of prisoners of war are expressly forbidden by international treaty. The Geneva Conventions outline acceptable acts during war, which we abide by in the hope that others will as well. Basically, if we wouldn't want our prisoners treated in that manner, we shouldn't treat their prisoners in such a manner. One could make the argument that, since the enemy in this particular conflict doesn't abide by the Geneva Conventions, neither should we, but I disagree with that view. They are just as important to follow in that situation (international goodwill, make supporting the enemy harder to morally justify, etc.). (One of the arguments made about this whole fiasco was that since the prisoners were "terrorists" they were not "enemy combatants" and thus not protected under the Geneva Convention, but that's just bullshit semantics.)
Reason 2: Torture. Doesn't. Frakking. Work. Time and time and time again, it's been shown that torture is not a reliable means of extracting information. The waterboarding done at Gitmo is no exception. No actionable intelligence (that could not have been, or in some cases had already been, otherwise obtained) resulted from the torture of those prisoners. (And, again, cut the bullshit "enhanced interrogation" semantics, it was torture.) Torture is useless for two big reasons. You're either dealing with someone who has been trained to resist interrogation, in which case torture won't get any better information, or they haven't been trained to resist interrogation, in which case there are plenty of other interrogation methods available with which to get the information.
My main concerns on the whole issue were the incessant lies, cover-ups, and fabrications made by both the current administration and the previous one. That people haven't gone to jail for lying to Congress and the American Citizenry is morally offensive, in my opinion.
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Hey World, HELP!
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Re: Hey World, HELP!
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Re: Hey World, HELP!
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A third-party or independent candidate
Maybe one will be pro-gun and pro-pot. But when it comes to pro-torture, they all are.
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The only thing different today is the (forced) acknowledgement of these activities, you know - the ones that have been going on like forever ... in most all societies across the entire globe. Get a grip people.
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War Crimes
It is a war crime. Obama says We are at war with the terrorists. Since we are at war with the terrorists, it stands to reason we committed war crimes against suspected terrorists.
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But then there's this other thing. What good is all this personal info at the fingertips if it isn't used for something? Surely you are not naive enough to believe useful stuff is just thrown out because they say it is? Isn't that what that new NSA facility capable of storing a yatabyte for?
So how about this link?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-23/exclusive-high-level-nsa-whistleblower-says-blackmail-huge- %E2%80%93-unreported-%E2%80%93-part-mass-
Maybe that explains Obama's sudden turn-a-bout as well as the staunch defenders the NSA has in congress?
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Were the torturers captured...
I would assume that those who authorized torture would assume that, were they captured, they would be subject to the same treatment that they authorized.
It was an interesting side-note during McCain's presidential campaign that he could no longer consider himself a war hero who was tortured by the enemy, since he suffered no greater a degree of interrogation than we were giving terrorist suspects and unlawful combatants. War hero, sure. Captured, absolutely, but not tortured, since suggesting that would be admitting that his political allies torture in the present tense.
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Re:
Ask Hannity - oh wait, he wants to forget about that.
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Re:
How many is too many?
You think the civil war was all about slavery?
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Comparison With the My Lai Investigation.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Henderson.html
There are similar enumerations of offenses for twenty-eight different officers, from Major General Samuel W. Koster down to a bunch of second lieutenants. Each man was charged with the specific offenses he committed. Then, as now, there were serious difficulties in actually prosecuting the perpetrators of war crimes, but they could at least be publicly named and specifically charged. This is the standard to which we must hold the torture report.
(Unfortunately, this version of the Peers Commission report is incomplete (You can download a full version in acrobat from the Library of Congress, of course). It would be a good thing if the Army's Center For Military History were to produce a proper HTML version of the Peers Commission report, with neatly organized chapters for easy reading and citation.)
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Re: Comparison With the My Lai Investigation.
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Re: Re: Comparison With the My Lai Investigation.
One might add that Calley went on successful fundraising tours. He attracted girls like nobody's business, the kind of girls who hang out around football players, eventually married one, and his father-in-law gave him a job running a jewelry store outside of Ft. Benning, in rural Georgia, not too far from President Jimmy Carter's hometown. When President Nixon granted Calley clemency, he was simply responding to public opinion. You simply cannot imagine the depths of racism which existed in parts of the South, circa 1970. I was a boy in Texas at the time, and it was considered arguable whether killing very small Vietnamese children was morally wrong or not. I had a high school teacher who taught the most pernicious doctrines, about "gooks" and "slopes," and all that. You know, the kinds of things that Corporal Adolph Hitler was circulating, circa 1923.
There's a limit to what you can do in the face of all that, but you can at least set down the facts for posterity. And that is what General Peers did.
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Declaration
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Let's rekindle that fire.
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Re: Declaration
Certainly, the Department of Justice is making things difficult. Police abuse is on the rise. SWAT raids happen at the drop of a hat and children are being exposed to paramilitary attacks. In the meantime, our regulatory agencies ignore the will of the people and lie to each other continuously on the House floor. Those are perfect conditions to bake a revolutionary army until it's crispy golden brown.
But we need to bake a lot of them before a revolution is viable. A proper revolution takes a lot of time and discontent. And it usually leads to a Reign of Terror before we get a viable constitution.
I suspect the next step is for communities to stop calling the police.
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White House press corps
Anyone know who exactly was there so that I can write to their newpapers and /or tv stations and ask them WTF is wrong with them?
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Re: White House press corps
Uncomfortable questions are not asked. Doing so gets them removed from the White House Press Corps where they will no longer have access to the excuse for first hand info.
Quite a few press groups have condemned this administration for it's lack of transparency. All officials almost always demand non-identification for any interviews so they can't be quoted, which was another of the complaints the press groups had. No one, but no one wants to go on record with an official statement for fear of upsetting the administration. Even official leaks that are approved by the administration are handled in this manner.
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This is NOT tie a persons arm behind their back and then hang them by their arms. Like say John McCain. This is not needles under the fingernails, or cutting off parts, or just cutting on their head and being done with it. Oh no, the poor Terrorist got Water boarded. Then spends the rest of his day getting 3 meals a day, and not just any old food either. Free Health care, free Korans and all the other crap. I mean really??? Because U.S. Prisoners never got ANY of that crap. Lucky to live, let alone 1 mean a day of whatever garbage was put in front of you. American prisoners getting REAL Tortured.
Cry me a river.
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Response to: JBDragon on Aug 5th, 2014 @ 3:33pm
a. The US DOES implement stress positions, electricity, humiliation, starvation and so on. Not just waterboarding.
b. NOT just BAD people. Not just convicted terrorists, but people who were at the wrong place at the wrong time, or shared a name with a terrorist. Or just knew the wrong combination of persons-of-interest. No due process involved.
c. Have you suffered the water cure by a SERE specialist? I haven't either, but numerous correspondents have, and every last description of it is Hell on earth. There is no question that if you were waterboarded (or our hardiest SEAL for that matter) you'd be squealing like a baby for mama within three minutes. The water cure breaks everyone.
d. It's already been stated that amongst the redactions are those forms of torture that WE STILL USE. So you don't know what we cut off. But we do know that people die from this. People have been disappeared, tortured to death and disavowed.
Please, JBDragon, never, ever breed.
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Re:
Many have said they would donate to charity in order for this to happen. Please say yes.
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Re:
Are you really trying to say that if there's no permanent physical injury then it's not torture? I think the rest of the world and the history of torture vehemently disagrees with that assertion.
Also, how and how much other nations torture, and how or how much torture US soldiers have endured is entirely beside the point.
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