The Fine Bros Plan Is Actually Pretty Cool If You Get Past How They Announced It
from the ok,-hear-me-out dept
Since late last week, we've been getting lots of inbound requests and submissions to write about The Fine Brothers, and the claims that they're somehow trying to "control" or "claim ownership" on the concept of "react videos." Almost all of the inbound requests are expecting us to trash the Fine Brothers for this apparent attempt to "own" something that can't be owned, and we're going to disappoint them. Having gone through all of the details, it actually looks like the Fine Brothers were legitimately trying to do something that's actually... kind of cool. Now, before you rip off my head as well, please wait and hear me out. I will say that they could have been a bit more tactful about it, but I don't think they deserve the intense hatred they're getting.There are lots of details here, but it starts with the Fine Brothers, Benny and Rafi, who have built up a rather impressive empire in creating amusing internet videos. They have a bunch of shows, many of which are crazy popular. Among the most well-known is probably the "Kids React" series, in which they film kids reacting to things (often "old" things that the kids may not be familiar with, frequently pop culture related). Personally, I like the one where kids react to seeing the very first iPod. Warning, if you're older than, like, 10, this video may make you feel really old.
Anyway... this latest mess kicked off with a YouTube video where Benny and Rafi Fine act as if they've just cured cancer or something, they're so excited for what they're putting out into the world -- a way for anyone to "license" their various show "formats," like Kids React:
But, having gone through the video, the details, more details, the FAQs and their hurried attempts to defend themselves, I actually do think they were trying to do something that is kind of cool. But they got seriously tripped up by the way they presented it.
Here's what they probably should have said they were trying to do: "Hey, everyone, we know we've got lots of enthusiastic fans who love our react videos and want to make their own. And now we're going to help you make those videos, help promote them and even help you make some money off of them! Yay! Isn't that exciting?"
Here's what they said instead: "Hey, everyone, we're going to let you license our "React" intellectual property. Also, people who copy our videos are bad people, but now you can do it if you license from us! Isn't that totally exciting?"
Here's what everyone heard: "Hey, everyone, we own "reaction videos" and now if you want to make your own, you have to give us a cut or we'll shut you down, because you're bad! Isn't that exciting?"
The problem was that they focused on the mechanism ("licensing!") rather than the benefits. They've been pretty clear that they're not looking to shut down anyone. And all the claims from people saying that they're claiming "ownership" of reaction videos is wrong. Yes, they've trademarked some stuff, but trademarks are not copyrights or patents. And, yes, while there is trademark abuse, there's no indication that what they're trying to do here is abusive. Actually, it looks like a pretty good idea.
They know that lots of people make similar reaction videos. And a lot of those people are their fans. But rather than shut them down and rather than demand big licensing fees, they created this (somewhat unique) program, where they're giving a license to anyone who wants it, and with that license, you get a variety of benefits, including graphic elements and (importantly) the ability to have the Fine Brothers help promote and monetize your videos. They take a cut (looks like a pretty small percentage actually), but that should be worth it for many people, who probably wouldn't have many opportunities to monetize the videos by themselves.
So, rather than use intellectual property to limit people (especially fans), this effort looks like it's designed to do the opposite. It's offering ways for fans who make their own videos to be considered "official" videos. Imagine, for example, if LucasFilm did the same thing, giving a sort of stamp of approval for people making fan Star Wars films -- and would even let them release them, just as long as LucasFilm got a small cut? That would be kind of cool.
Now, there is some, potentially valid, concern that the Fine Brothers have attempted to trademark some of the names of their shows, and those trademarks could potentially be abused. Additionally, the whole "people are stealing our formats!" claim in the video above just comes across as silly. Finally, there are at least some examples of absolutely stupid takedowns that may have been made by the Fine Brothers or by people working for them. And those are all certainly issues to be concerned about -- and the Fine Brothers should have perhaps realized that those issues were going to come up, especially the way they presented this.
But, going back to the actual licensing program, it's not that crazy by itself. A trademark is pretty limited in what it can prevent here, and it really doesn't look like they're trying to take down generic reaction videos -- and the fact that they've publicly insisted they're not intending to do so would clearly hurt any actual attempt to do so later. The takedown pointed out above was stupid, and pretty clearly fair use, but was using the Fine Brothers' original work (it was a video of him reacting to one of their Kids React videos). Again, it was a really really dumb takedown that they shouldn't have done, but is a separate issue from this licensing program for people creating something different entirely.
Similarly, a lot of the criticism is that there's nothing special or unique in "reaction videos" and that plenty of others have done them, even predating the Fine Brothers. That's true -- and this is where the misunderstanding of "format" outside of the cozy Southern California entertainment world comes in. What they're talking about is building off of the larger reputation associated with the shows themselves -- something the Fine Brothers actually did build up beyond just generic reaction videos -- including a general setup and script for how each of the videos goes along with the graphical elements that accompany the shows. Most other reaction videos don't follow that same format -- with multiple people looking at a laptop or a piece of technology, with the quick cuts between different folks, and the captions and explanation bubbles and whatnot. I'm not saying any of that is brilliant, but it is the kind of thing that, when packaged together, could certainly be a valid "format" for a show.
Again, if you separate it out, overall, this actually looks like a pretty cool idea for how an entertainment brand could (and probably should!) embrace fan culture and fans trying to build on their work. But, it was presented slightly awkwardly, with a focus on terminology not well understood outside of the entertainment business, and in a world where people are (so rightfully!) concerned about abusing intellectual property. And, the fact that the Fine Brothers have apparently done some stupid takedowns doesn't help at all. Mix in a bit of Reddit mob behavior and you have a recipe for a massive overreaction.
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Filed Under: fan films, fans, fine brothers, kids react, licensing, react world, show formats, youtube videos
Companies: fine brothers
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Wow, such groundbreaking stuff! Truly amazing stuff. Videos of kids reacting things is the best thing short of curing cancer for sure!
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You do realize we made basically the same jokes in our post as well? So not sure what you accomplish by saying the same thing in attempting to mock us.
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Yup. On that I agree totally. But as for the original plan: that was actually a good idea. Reacting badly to people isn't helping though.
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And lots of others too. But they're not claiming ownership over the concept of kids reacting to stuff. They're just talking about the specific setup of *their show alone*. It's different.
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https://twitter.com/thefinebros/status/513061415016341504
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Still Bullshit!
How can a format be considered a trademark? This world is going fucking insane with IP laws to the point that sanctions, economic distress, & WARS are going to be fought over them!
How about I file for a trademark explaining the format in which I do something like say... eat my food? Pay up all you mutha's cause I wanna be RICH!!!
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Yup. Agree that was stupid and wrong. But separate from their offer to help others do videos.
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http://ryanmorrisonlaw.com/attorneys-react-the-fine-bros-react-trademark/
His react(ion) is not good towards the Fine Bros
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https://twitter.com/thefinebros/status/572989392672837633
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Sounds like the internet reacted...
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https://twitter.com/thefinebros/status/572989392672837633
Yup. And I have no issue with them having to answer to bullshit whines like those. And I'd argue that that past history is now coming back to haunt them.
But that doesn't change that the *underlying idea* of helping fans create, promote and make money from making their own versions is a pretty cool concept.
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And this facebook post.
What you are basically saying is the idea is good so it's going to be used only for good, when the records show that they are entitled bullies.
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To me, those trademarks are not necessary for them to accomplish the goal they set out to do. It could also be done under a Fine Bros Entertainment brand and trademark, not necessarily the generic "Kids React", "Teens React", etc.
The only benefit I can see from them owning trademarks on those, my opinion, very broad terms, is to shut down or claim ad revenue from others.
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You paint a picture of a mostly benign support program of a small newborn franchise.
But their past and even current actions render forth the comments you see here. The vast majority simply don't believe this to be some benign well-intentioned program in light of all things.
in fact, for a support program, they dont actually provide any. From DIGG, "Ironically the React World FAQ states, "We are not currently making [show graphics, logos, and actors] available to creators.""
http://digg.com/2016/fine-bros-react-world-licensing
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Also why threaten other channels that have reaction videos with legal action (again channels that bear no similarity to theirs)?
If they're nice they'll explain all of this.
Mike, also we'd like you to post officially and state that FineBros (and their affiliates) are not partners and have never had anything to do with Techdirt (including Ads), as that would stop anyone from claiming your being paid to support them. Cheers.
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What would prevent Fine bros from turning this into a shakedown/turf claim on react videos? If their history is any indication, they certainly seem inclined to pursue limiting similar videos in an aggressive manner.
Given the usual techdirt perspective of opposing legal lockdown and impediment to technological advances and online culture sharing/development, I overall found this article to be shocking and little bit disappointing. Building paths for fans to copy your work is great. Setting yourself up as a gatekeeper is not, as many, many articles on this site demonstrate.
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Well...
Since he/they created the Elders React format months before they did, they apparently DMCA'd his arse and shut him down THEN started their own Elders React - because starting Kids React means you suddenly own all other X React videos...I see nothing original in their format to protect, apart from the name (but you can't protect something that didn't exist yet...pretty sure a format isn't copyrightable, and if it was it would need to be unique, which the react format isn't)
Reddit is on the case, maybe with an AMA with those people...
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What? Nintendo...
Mike, man, you've been my hero. How can you not see the parallels? They might say nicer things about their program, but ultimately they're just Nintendo trying to corner a market they shouldn't have a right to. I honestly think you should look a little more at these guys before you paint such a benign picture for them.
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The Fine Brothers are complete assholes
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Re: The Fine Brothers are complete assholes
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Re: What? Nintendo...
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Mike, you are usually right but you are getting it wrong here.
"Asked on Facebook whether people would be prevented from making a video called, for example, 'Kids react to Red Bull', the Fine Brothers replied: 'That is a trademarked show name, so yes, that is correct.'"
First of all, that title is a great example of classic fair use, so they are mistaken as to the limitations of their rights through registrations like KIDS REACT. They apparently think that merely using their purported trademarks in a descriptive manner is something they are entitled to prevent. Their tweets regarding BuzzFeed and Ellen videos that show reactions show they feel they are entitled to something and they were somehow wronged. This won't end well.
I do not at all believe that they started registering marks because they wanted to do something cool. They tried to dress up their attempt to expand their ability to claim IP rights in a cool way, however, most people don't seem to have been fooled as to what this is all about.
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Nope. It does not necessitate that. But again, you're focused on something different: the decision to trademark, rather than what I'm pointing out, which is the underlying idea of making it easier for fans to make, promote and monitor "fan" versions of what they do.
Yes, I think over trademarking is a problem. And I think the Fine Bros are pushing it on that.
But that's *different* than the idea of supporting fan vids.
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As I thought I've been pretty clear, I agree that those actions are horrible and I disagree with them entirely.
But that's *separate* from the issue of creating a system to encourage and support fan vids.
Also why threaten other channels that have reaction videos with legal action (again channels that bear no similarity to theirs)?
Again, a stupid action on their part, but different from the idea here.
People keep conflating the two -- and maybe that's to be expected giving how the Fine Bros. have responded in the past.
But the key thing: if there were people with a brand who had NOT had that sort of history, and they created a similar plan to help fans create, promote and make money from their fan videos, it could be kind of cool.
Mike, also we'd like you to post officially and state that FineBros (and their affiliates) are not partners and have never had anything to do with Techdirt (including Ads), as that would stop anyone from claiming your being paid to support them. Cheers.
Wow. Post one thing you disagree with and people automatically claim you're paid off. To be clear, until last week, I was only marginally aware of an entity called "the Fine Brothers" and had basically seen two or three of their "react" videos when they were virally passed around. That's the extent of my connection to them in their entirety.
As far as I know I've never spoken to them, anyone connected to them, anyone who's even watched their videos beyond the two or three that I've seen personally. I've certainly never done any kind of business deal with them. And really, if that's your first thought, you should perhaps calm down a bit.
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It seems to me you're seeing one half, the proposal, as a good thing, and attributing reactions to that (the licensing/format scheme), while ignoring the other half, the IP half, which is what it seems most people are reacting negatively to.
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Fair enough. I just think that, in plenty of other contexts, this kind "feel free to use our stuff, and in exchange we'll help you do more and make some money" should be seen as a good thing. I'd love it if other shows/brands did the same thing.
Again, imaging being able to make money off your Star Wars fan film, if you just had to agree to kick back 20% to LucasFilm. That's kinda neat.
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That aside, anything to add on the "help" they're both offering through licensing?
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Ellen
I understand the idea that you can have a trademark on certain elements of a show, so while anyone can do a "talent show," having the judges turn their chairs when they like you or stand up and hit a gong if they don't might be elements that can be trademarked. But showing kids something and asking them questions? That is so obvious that Art Linkletter was doing it on the radio in 1945.
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Re: Mike, you are usually right but you are getting it wrong here.
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I look at it more as the local CBS affiliate trademarking "Eyewitness News" and doing local news, sports news, weather in that order, and trying to use that to stifle competition from the local ABC affiliate "Eyewitness News" in another city.
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Here's a good video summing up the nuances of this issue.
Thanks to Dan Olson for the video explanation.
From what I can gather the Fine Bros are approaching this with the MCN model (despite their verbal dancing to the contrary). They are going to take around 40% of your revenue, they will not allow you to use their branding or logos, and there is no kind of filtering or screening program for the content in the network so what is the gain for joining their network?
And now that they are trying to Trademark their various REACT names, they will certainly push harder on takedowns under the guise of 'protecting our trademark'. They are also very vague about what constitutes the elements of their brand, making it easier for them to cast a wide takedown net.
Watch them carefully try to reframe the issue while not being specific about the reality of what they are really trying to do.
Fine Bros update video video released Sunday night
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t-vuI9vKfg
Here is AlexHD's summary of Dan Olsen's video at the top of response (Video is 10 minutes long)
1) The Fine Bros have no case when it comes to trademarking their format "people react to things", it is simply too broad and too shallow, and too close to the concept of "people react to things". You cannot trademark the concept "people react to things", the same way as you cannot trademark the concept of "reality TV singing competition".
2) The only thing unique about their videos is their branding, which they are perfectly okay to trademark and license. "Kids React!" with an exclamation point would be fine, but "Kids React" or "Elders React" are already popular phrases within the platform. Sounds okay so far, right?
3) Here's where it gets scary. React World has no mechanisms in place for quality control. It isn't like their Burger King example where a license owner has a certain expectation of service delivery. They are literally crowdsourcing the making of React videos to everyone.
4) With tens of thousands of React video channels signing up for free, none of them will ever be able to become reasonably profitable for the creator, however ALL of them will be monetised by Fine Bros Entertainment, taking a 30-50% cut of revenue.
5) And here's where it gets even scarier. Fine Bros will be able to leverage their influence to take down channels that are not part of their brand, forcing them to become part of the React brand (and forfeit a cut of their revenue), or being taken down completely. THIS IS RACKETEERING.
No one can defend the Fine Bros after seeing the true nature of their licensing plan. This isn't about enabling YouTubers to make money from the React brand, it's about creating a giant network of people to do the Fine Bros' work for them, and then taking a vast portion of the spoils while leaving creators with pennies.
There are so many small things about what they are doing that are normally looked down upon by Techdirt. I'm surprised they got a pass.
Was it poorly executed by them? Yes. That poor execution pointed a magnifying glass at what they are really doing and that is where their problems really lay. Ironically by releasing that video prior to the comment term on their Trademark application, they probably doomed themselves to not getting the Trademarks.
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You may be right about it being a potentially cool thing ON PAPER, but in practice they're already taking down videos. This is no different than Sony trying to trademark Lets Play.
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I don't think you can seperate the two that much. I know very little about the history of these guys, but it looks like they've engaged in a lot of stupid activities both before and after this announcement.
This tells me that there is a very high likelihood that they will continue to engage in stupid activities into the future, only now they're offering a way to get on their "we won't mess with you" list.
It smells a bit like a protection racket.
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on a side note...
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I think that is a good thing, but from reading and watching what the Fine Brothers have been saying about it, I have the distinct impression that this point is the least interesting to them. More interesting to them is to have some sort fo club they can beat everyone else with.
I may be entirely wrong about this, but that is entirely how they come off when they speak.
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I don't think I've ever heard of the Fine Brothers before reading this article.
While I'm certain your article in favour of the Fine Brothers was well-intentioned, the benefit of the doubt is something most of us generally only give to those that have no history of IP abuse.
The Fine Brothers don't fall into that category - quite the contrary, in fact - and the most reasonable assumption is that this is a land grab, or so it seems to me.
Also, we live in a world where every authority we know of - be it political, military, security, police or religious - is publically seen to be corrupt, motivated only by greed and self-interest, concerned not with the greater good, but only what they can get away with.
Hollywood - which the Fine Brothers seem to be living next door to - is a primary source for much of that corruption, with a reach that extends vastly beyond its own economic borders, so to speak.
In such a world - and particularly in this instance - profound cynicism and conscious, deliberate paranoia are not so much to be expected as they are mandatory. They're basic survival traits for every content-creator - and strongly recommended for everyone else.
When rendering such a questionable verdict on the issue, Techdirt can hardly be considered above suspicion. Why would you imagine otherwise? Why would you even want it otherwise?
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Re: Here's a good video summing up the nuances of this issue.
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ITT: People react to a headline rather than read an article.
-anon
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"While initially Game Grumps Animateds were treated as hobby projects, currently Arin and the rest of the Grumps commission animators to create content specifically for the Game Grumps channel where they can reach a wider audience, usually from animators who have created fan animations before on their own time. Ross has previously discussed that Youtube's monetization systems make it unsustainable to create channels based entirely on short, infrequently posted animations, so by uploading to the Game Grumps channel itself they are able to monetize the content effectively."
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It's the "our stuff" part people have a problem with. Also the implicit "on our terms."
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I'm expecting someone to set up a "Not-So-Fine Brothers" Youtube channel soon to demonstrate the point....
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People with bad motivations have good ideas all the time, just as people with good motivations have bad ideas.
Unfortunately, Mike appears to have walked too close to the border so that his original point gets missed.
Imagine if "The Fine Brothers" was replaced with "Prenda Law" -- I think Mike's article would read very similarly, but people would likely get the point a bit more.
Of course, fan video of gay porn being distributed through the studios would raise all sorts of OTHER reactions, but hey....
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http://www.tmfile.com/mark/?q=866893643
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There is nothing to trademark as far as "concept".
Their "format" appears to be by and large the the concept itself. That leaves the "brand" as what they can license.
They compare this to franchising but it's not really the same thing at all as there is no standard that content creators have to live up to as in a franchise agreement. It's open to anyone, and you get to used the branding and the "support that comes along with it", which if there are tons of people making these videos, is meaningless because it's just impossible to manage thousands of "partners". None of these partners will be very profitable for the creator, but ALL of them will be earning Fine Bros Entertainment 30-50% of the revenue they generate, even if it is just pennies. The scale could make it very profitable for them , so I just don't buy this whole "empowering content creators" jazz.
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"None of these partnerships will be very profitable for the creator"
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Was Bill Cosby's show called "Kids React"? No. It was called "Kids Say the Darndest Things" -- and guess what? There are a bunch of trademarks on that phrase too.
Did that stop other shows from showing kids reacting to stuff? No.
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The Fine Brothers - Subscriber Crash Demonstration
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Answer: 0%
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Thing Two - The picked the worst spokespeople.
Thing Three - We've been promised awesome things and then screwed when they pull of the mask.
Thing Four - Despite the benevolent claims, they have shown a history of being bullies & possessive over things they think they "own".
It is really hard to separate these things to discuss them.
Announcing something like this and the only portions you have figured out was how it would benefit you... bad thing. Even if the underlying thing could be a great fantastic thing the idea is pretty much dead for now. They are going to be in full on spin control and make the idea toxic for quite a while.
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wtf
Is this article just a steaming pile of click-bait meant to capitalise on the controversy?
Mike should do some PR for parasites and cancer- or maybe expound on the virtuous nature of hitlers plans for his work camps. (yay- full godwin achieved!)
...so much for logical consistency at TD.
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Helping the little guys.... BS!
The Fine Brothers are supporting fan vids like TPP helps the economy. TTP supports SAY they're helping, but we know they're not.
We could put all the homeless in concentration camps and SAY we're eliminating the homeless problem in America.
Trademarking the word "react" has a chilling effect on people uploading their own videos.
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Maybe someone can do this...
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Re: Ellen
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It seems strange that you would defend them Mike otherwise
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Let us help you! For just a small fee, you can...
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Now trying to compare the fact that they are trying to "get in" on a basic human function being recorded, is nothing like comparing Lucasfilm getting cuts for a movie with an extremely unorthodox basis BOUGHT by another company, and not permitted to the public. If Lucasfilm loaned this to everyone, it would completely ruin an individual storyline with linear characters. Everyone in the world reacts, with or without linear, unorthodox stories. Two completely different arguements, and makes for an invalid one.
On the other hand, way to get a bunch of hits on an article, I've never been on Techdirt.com, and this brought me here.
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What they we going to do wasn't going to be new or original at all
This is the biggest puff piece I've seen here on Techdirt.
The Verdict does a great job of explaining MCNs and what the fine bros were trying to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr09VacU8e0
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Re: wtf
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Re: Maybe someone can do this...
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I see no benefit in taking or holding extreme positions.
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But...
They were going to give a license to anyone, with no quality control or sanity checks. Even if we believe the best of them, the net result of this is thousands and thousands of mediocre reaction videos with the Fine Bros media assets. There is no possible way that they can do promotion for all of them, so how does that benefit the Youtubers who join up? They're giving up 30-50% of their revenue cut, last I heard, for the right to join a lottery that may give them some extra exposure at some point. And in the meantime, the Fine Bros will make a LOT of money off the small amounts from so many little channels.
Other Youtubers are rightfully pissed off about this because there is no upside to signing. The reaction format is generic and the Fine Bros can't lay claim to it. All they can offer is their branding and assets, and the possibility of promotion. It's not novel, not empowering, and it looks exactly like what it is - a massive money grab off their fans' work. The Fine Bros can swear up and down that their motives were pure, but that doesn't matter a whole lot when they're part of a big MCN driven by revenue and corporatism.
Thanks for playing devil's advocate, but I'm not buying it.
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Re: Here's a good video summing up the nuances of this issue.
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I agree that there's nothing wrong with being fair and even-handed, but unfortunately, Mr Masnick's article doesn't appear to be either one of those things.
I came to the matter with no knowledge or preconceptions about the Fine Brothers, but just from reading the article alone, I had the impression that Mr Masnick was grasping for any straw he could to defend these guys.
It doesn't read like an honest article, it reads like something from a lawyer who knows full well that his client is guilty and that every shred of evidence is against them.
That impression is only very strongly reinforced, rather than being refuted at all, by the responses here and on other sites.
The IP-sharing idea Mr Masnick is gushing over may be a reasonable idea in the hands of reasonable people who can reasonably be said to own what they're selling.
In this case, however, the Fine Brothers appear to be attempting to leverage a trademark to claim ownership and sell a piece of an idea they didn't originate and cannot possibly claim any ownership of in law.
Mr Masnick, for whatever reason, has chosen to defend a pair of indefensible, idea-ownership-claiming, IP-abusing scumbags.
I don't see anything moderate or reasonable about that.
PS: Mr Masnick himself has shown no difficulty in taking extremist positions when it suits him, such as on the topic of free speech, where he's openly said that more-or-less anything goes, as far as he's concerned, just so long as there's a right to reply.
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Re: But...
Other Youtubers are rightfully pissed off about this because there is no upside to signing.
Why would they be mad about that? Just don't sign up.
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He's not defending "these guys", he's defending this one thing that they're trying to do*. You'll notice nowhere in the article does Masnick praise the Fine brothers' character or anything of the sort.
PS: Mr Masnick himself has shown no difficulty in taking extremist positions when it suits him, such as on the topic of free speech, where he's openly said that more-or-less anything goes, as far as he's concerned, just so long as there's a right to reply.
I disagree, unless in the "more-or-less" caveat you put things like fraud and true threats. He recognizes that there are types of speech that do not get protection.
* I do not intend to defend either the people or their plan, as I know hardly anything about either
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Meglomainac
I have no evil intentions and I seek only to do good with my good fortune.
Am I pretending to be the **AA's, Facebook, or the Fine Bros? Does it matter? They all want to be the leech that gets fat off the work of others without having to actually do much...
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