ICE Is Cramming Immigrants Into Filthy, Overcrowded Facilities
from the government-is-just-a-word-for-the-things-we-choose-to-do-together dept
The border surge is upon us. Apparently. Since the 2016 election, actually, if we're honest about it. Trump wasn't a single-issue candidate but has sort of morphed into one since taking office. The swamp remains undrained. Hillary Clinton remains unjailed. But BUILD THE WALL has become the calling card of Donald Trump as he seeks to rid the nation of pesky brown people. Good times. To be fair, ICE and CBP have always sucked. But their moment in the spotlight has only increased the intensity of their sucking.
The problem with declaring the border a national security threat/war zone/flashpoint for a trade war/whatever is that you have to be ready to deal with the problem you're causing. If you think America's greatness is measured by the number of people we capture and detain, you have to have a plan in place to deal with this influx of eventual deportees.
We do not have a plan in place. ICE may be enjoying the extremely rare experience of being a presidential administration's favorite agency, but it definitely had no idea what it was in for. For months, ICE scrambled around knocking heads and fudging numbers to back Trump's claim that the United States was swimming with dangerous undocumented immigrants.
ICE performed raid after raid in major cities, hoping to score a batch of hardened criminals. CBP also stepped up enforcement, detaining more people than usual in hopes of sending a message to outsiders about America's not-all-that-open borders.
The problem is you have to put all of these people somewhere. ICE is in charge of that and it doesn't particularly relish any part of the job but locking people up. It farmed out some of this work to contractors. Whatever it doesn't handle poorly itself is handled terribly by third parties. ICE rarely inspects its facilities and even more rarely makes sure the few problems it notices are addressed.
This has led directly to the problems found by ICE's Inspector General. IG investigations of ICE detention centers have found a shitload of inhuman conditions that we, the people, are funding with our tax dollars. First, an inspection [PDF] of a facility in El Paso, Texas, discovered ICE and CBP are just shoving as many detainees into a room as inhumanly possible, resulting in standing-room-only detentions that can last for several days.
Here are a couple of photos taken by investigators. Each white block is covering a face… or faces, since there's not a lot of room between detainees.
Part of the problem is a spike in apprehensions, apparently triggered by presidential rhetoric.
These agencies (ICE, CBP) view detainees as subhuman, much in the way prisons view prisoners.
Here are the numbers, according to the IG investigation:
According to PDT Border Patrol processing facility staff, the facility’s maximum capacity is 125 detainees. However, on May 7 and 8, 2019, Border Patrol’s custody logs indicated that there were approximately 750 and 900 detainees on site, respectively. TEDS standards provide that “under no circumstances should the maximum [cell] occupancy rate, as set by the fire marshal, be exceeded” (TEDS 4.7).
However, we observed dangerous overcrowding at the facility with single adults held in cells designed for one-fifth as many detainees (see Figures 1 through 3). Specifically, we observed:
- a cell with a maximum capacity of 12 held 76 detainees (Figure 1);
- a cell with a maximum capacity of 8 held 41 detainees (Figure 2); and
- a cell with a maximum capacity of 35 held 155 detainees (Figure 3).
66% of detainees had been there longer than the 72 hours and 4% (33 detainees) had been there -- in these conditions -- for more than two weeks. The IG also observed hundreds of detainees standing in line to surrender their valuables to DHS/CBP personnel prior to detention. The IG also observed how government personnel processed these possessions, which apparently involved a.) taking the valuables, and b.) hurling them into a nearby dumpster.
The CPB excuse? Some possession were "wet," which made them "biohazards." Management on site had their own complaints: employees were getting sick frequently and morale was pretty much nonexistent. Unsurprisingly, sending personnel into overcrowded holding areas to check on detainees also increases the dangers they face, especially when detainees are understandably distressed and angry about their supposedly-temporary living conditions.
There is no help coming from upper management. Nor is ICE willing to assist in alleviating the problems it's caused.
Although CBP headquarters management has been aware of the situation at PDT for months and detailed staff to assist with custody management, DHS has not identified a process to alleviate issues with overcrowding at PDT. Within DHS, providing long-term detention is the responsibility of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), not CBP. El Paso sector Border Patrol management said they are able to complete immigration processing for most detainees within a few days, but have not been able to transfer single adults into ICE custody quickly. Border Patrol managers at the stations we visited said they call ICE daily to request detention space for single adults. They said in some instances ICE officers tell them they cannot take the detainees. In other instances, ICE initially agrees to take some adult detainees, but then reverses the decision.
El Paso isn't the only area of concern. Another Inspector General's report [PDF] obtained by CNN contains even more depictions of subhuman conditions being foisted on detainees by the federal government. Overcrowding isn't the problem here. Everything else is.
This report summarizes findings on our latest round of unannounced inspections at four detention facilities housing ICE detainees. Although the conditions varied among the facilities and not every problem was present at each, our observations, detainee and staff interviews, and document reviews revealed several common issues. Because we observed immediate risks or egregious violations of detention standards at facilities in Adelanto, CA, and Essex County, NJ, including nooses in detainee cells, overly restrictive segregation, inadequate medical care, unreported security incidents, and significant food safety issues, we issued individual reports to ICE after our visits to these two facilities. All four facilities had issues with expired food, which puts detainees at risk for food-borne illnesses.
If you can take it, there's more:
At three facilities, we found that segregation practices violated standards and infringed on detainee rights. Two facilities failed to provide recreation outside detainee housing units. Bathrooms in two facilities’ detainee housing units were dilapidated and moldy. At one facility, detainees do not receive appropriate clothing and hygiene items to ensure they could properly care for themselves. Lastly, one facility allowed only non-contact visits, despite being able to accommodate in-person visitation. Our observations confirmed concerns identified in detainee grievances, which indicated unsafe and unhealthy conditions to varying degrees at all of the facilities we visited.
In two facilities, food handling processes were so substandard, the kitchen manager was fired during the IG's visit. At one facility, personnel performed suspicionless strip searches with alarming regularity and without proper documentation. In multiple facilities, detainees were not given adequate recreation time or access to outdoor activities. Some assholes (including government employees!) probably consider this to be coddling people engaged in illegal behavior, but the IG points out an important nuance that often gets ignored during heated discussions of immigration enforcement.
Detainees are held in civil, not criminal, custody; yet, according to the National Institute for Jail Operations, the loss or reduction of recreation-related amenities (indoor recreation; no fresh air and direct sunlight) may result in increased idle time and a significantly lower quality of life.
Given the conditions indoors, no wonder so many detainees wanted to spend more time outside detention facilities.
[A]t the Adelanto and Essex facilities, we observed detainee bathrooms that were in poor condition, including mold and peeling paint on walls, floors, and showers, and unusable toilets... At the Essex facility, mold permeated all walls in the bathroom area, including ceilings, vents, mirrors, and shower stalls.
That's a factor that cannot be overlooked. Most of the thousands of people detained at ICE facilities are civil detainees. And in many cases, they're being treated worse than the criminals housed in our nation's many prisons. The administration is very engaged in an anti-immigration flex, but it has zero interest in handling its border enforcement activities responsibly. This does not reflect well on this country, especially if these problems continue long after Trump leaves office.
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Filed Under: cruelty, ice, immigrants, overcrowding
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Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Violations of civil rights, no access to a lawyer, never read their rights, never brought before a judge within the time frame. This can't keep going before they are paying out more than their annual budget on settlements to try to prevent a loss in the court system.
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Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
I'm divided on this one. On the one hand, these are human beings that need to be treated with respect. On the other hand, they are breaking the law and know that. They are also not US Citizens with the guaranteed protection of the Constitution, AFAIK. I'm thinking we could implement a system that has immigrants seeking asylum and or citizenship complete a program that benefits society. Military, Red Cross, etc, without any serious felonies.
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
That you would even consider those as excuses for inhuman treatment is horrifying.
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
if two dozen homeless people suddenly, but peaceably entered your house and clearly looked like they intended to stay permanently -- what exactly would YOU do ??
would you immediately buy extra groceries to feed them ?
would you immediately buy lots of extra cots and bedding to ensure their comfort ? Lots more toilet paper and soap ?
would you immediately hire a private medical nurse and buy medical supplies to handle the health needs ? Would you drive them to your dentist and pay for checkups, cleanings, teeth restorations ?
or -- would you quickly call the police and have your surprise "guests" rudely shackled and dragged off to dirty jail cells ??
we all know what would happen.
the basic situation is the same at the Mexican Border.
But since that bad situation does not affect YOU directly -- it's easy to adopt an uninformed, judgmental attitude.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
"if two dozen homeless people suddenly, but peaceably entered your house and clearly looked like they intended to stay permanently -- what exactly would YOU do ??"
If I had as many spare resources and room as the US does, and I'd also inflicted the wars which displaced them in the first place? Or, does your idiotic analogy fall apart when you apply context?
"But since that bad situation does not affect YOU directly"
Which bad situation? The mild issues caused by immigrants, or the horrifically inhuman treatment you demand be dished out to people who made the mistake of standing on the wrong side of a line? Because if you think they're equal, you're stupider than you normally display yourself here.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
... surely you have at least some personal resources with which to directly help the homeless in America and the poor of the world, but doubtful that you personally sacrifice anything or act upon your proffered grand humanitarian outlook
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
"Which bad situation? The mild issues caused by immigrants, or the horrifically inhuman treatment you demand be dished out to people who made the mistake of standing on the wrong side of a line?"
Mild issues? Your not being serious are you? You are either joking or wildly misinformed. Forget where the illegal immigrants come from, or the color of their skin for a minute and look at the shear volume. In May alone, 144K "inadmissible people" were turned back. The total number of immigrants may have decreased slightly, however the current surge is (see citation below) straining our facilities and resources to the breaking point. We already (See second citation) take on more immigrants than any other country, what more are we expected to do? Why don't some of these other countries step up? Take Spain for example, the U.S. took on 5.5 times more immigrants than they did. How many is enough? 10 times? 20 times?
https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/international-migration-outlook-2018_ migr_outlook-2018-en#page24
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Well, the US has a population seven times the size of Spain, a GDP about eleven times higher, and an area about seven-and-a-half times as large.
So, seven-ish sounds fair?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
So the country should base it's immigration on it's population, area, and GDP?
The U.S. is third in both size and population, it has the largest GDP, but it's not the richest. Maybe some of these other countries should step up?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
The two larger countries by area are Canada and Russia. Much of both of those countries are frozen tundra, so a lot of that larger area is uninhabitable.
So, let's go by per-capita numbers.
Canada has a refugee ratio of 4.19 refugees per 1,000 people; Russia has a ratio of 2.20; the US has a ratio of 0.84. Sounds like they're stepping up fine.
The two larger countries by population are China and India. China is more known as a place to be a refugee from, and, as recently as 2015, were dealing with such dramatic overpopulation that they restricted families to having one child each. India has a GDP per-capita of ~$7000, which puts them in the bottom half of the world in their ability to support more people.
Most of the countries with a higher GDP per-capita than the US are tiny (Qatar, Macau, Luxembourg, Singapore, Brunei, UAE, Kuwait, Hong Kong). Even so, Luxembourg has a refugee ratio of 2.14 per 1,000 people. And the larger countries are all outpacing the US: Ireland has a ratio of 1.25, Norway has a ratio of 9.14, and Switzerland's ratio is 8.45 (once again, for comparison, the US's ratio is 0.84 refugees per 1,000 people).
(And even though all of those numbers are for refugees, most of the countries listed above as having higher refugee population per-capita than the US have a higher immigrant population per-capita as well, Russia being the notable exception).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Huh... would you look at that. Applying context and wider data changes things dramatically. Who knew!
I mean, quite apart from the dramatically different geopolitical situations in each country, just stating the figures in context makes a real difference. The problem is, the people who are being told to be scared and compliant aren’t being given that context.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
No one can deny the fact that the U.S. has over 40 million immigrants. Three times more than the next closest country, regardless of whatever metric you use to measure. I think the U.S. is doing it's fair share.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Why is "total number of immigrants" the only metric which matters? Because you say so?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Why is it not?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Context. 5 extra people in my house would be a lot. In my city, not so much. If you obsess over raw figures rather than context, you miss what’s really going on. That’s even without considering why those people moved to begin with.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Because a wealthier country, with a larger population, will have the resources to take in more refugees than a poorer, smaller one.
To deliver an analogy: there's a reason why you don't hold a 26-mile marathon, with 10,000 participants, on a 400m oval athletics track: the track just doesn't have the capacity to deal with the number, although it could easily handle one person running that distance, or ten, or even a few dozen.
Instead, if you want to hold a marathon of that size, you go to a place with 26 miles of roads, with police who can close the route to traffic, with people who can step up to organize the race and run rehydration stations and provide first aid. In other words, the larger and wealthier your city is, the larger the marathon it can hold, because it has more resources to deal with all of those people.
Similarly, the larger and wealthier your country is, the more resources it has to deal with the influx of immigrants. That's why per-capita numbers, and GDP numbers, matter when determining what a "fair share" is, in terms of how many immigrants your nation can take in.
So, once again, why do you think "total number of immigrants" is the only metric which matters in calculating a "fair share" to take in?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
"Because a wealthier country, with a larger population, will have the resources to take in more refugees than a poorer, smaller one."
Socialist much?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds l
I don't care what label you put on the basic idea that "A country that has more resources has the ability to put more resources towards solving a given problem."
Are you going to answer the question:
Why do you think "total number of immigrants" is the only metric which matters in calculating a "fair share" to take in?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Soun
I never said it was. I simply said that because we have more than 46 million immigrants, we were doing our fair share. We are leading in a variety of other fields as well, but that particular field should be enough for this argument? Do we need 47 million? How about 100 million? How many is enough for you?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Okay, let me introduce you to basic logic.
If you make the statement, "A, therefore B," (or, in an equivalent statement, "B, because A") that is saying that if A is true, then B is true, and thus A is the only thing you need to determine B.
You said "because we have more than 46 million immigrants, we were doing our fair share."
A, in your statement, is "we have more than 46 million immigrants."
B, in your statement, is "we were doing our fair share."
So, yes, you were, in fact, saying that "total number of immigrants" is the only metric which matters in calculating a "fair share" to take in.
Why?
Why does that number matter at all?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Some would say there are over 300 million immigrants now.
I'm in, shut the door?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds l
“Socialist much?”
You like using the Internet much?
Or the USPS?
Or police and fire services?
Or having the roads fixed?
Goddamn Socialists
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Socialist much?
Our biggest industries are pushing to let civilization crap itself to extinction, or are giant rent-seeking schemes.
Our minimum wage workers have to depend on government benefits or destroying their own credit in order to make basic ends meet, meanwhile executives are paid more by several orders of magnitude.
A fast growing percentage of the workforce is in the gig economy and still lives paycheck-to-paycheck, meaning one bout of illness, one injury, one crisis and they are homeless. Our response to our immense poverty level was to lower the poverty line.
The highest return on company investment at as much as 32$ to the dollar is lobbying politicians.
The FAA, FCC, FDA and EPA are all underfunded and captured to serve the industries, not the people. And now lives lost have been confirmed and documented.
Meanwhile we dump food, have tons of empty houses while we let people starve, homeless in the streets. The upsell market is booming because only the affluent can afford to buy things.
Oh and we're turning into a neo-feudal dystopia where corporations and aristocrats can rent armies to enforce their will -- and ICE is renting and its happy to bust American heads for big companies. PMCs are able to provide more military force than most national armies and is affecting our wars.
On these points alone, I'd argue that capitalism deserves far more contempt than socialism. Certainly capitalism as it is practiced in the US and EU and wherever the tendrils of US ownership policy is able to supplant local cultures and economies.
Something something three meals away from revolution.
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Re: Socialist much?
My God! With that outlook your life must really suck.
I am fortunate that mine is predicated on living in a country of boundless opportunity.
MAGA to you and yours.
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Re: Re: Socialist much?
How could you wish for Morons Are Governing America to be on other countries. Hasn't the world suffered enough?
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Re: Re: Re: Socialist much?
That was a rhetorical and sarcastic comment, for those of you that can't read the context of the conversation.
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"With that outlook your life must really suck."
My outlook for the nation includes the possibility of changing it for the better, say if we stopped pretending economics is a zero sum game.
Boundless opportunity doesn't come to all of us, and we've been able to zero in on how some of us are funneled into prisons or military duty where others are integrated into social fraternities where connections are arranged.
We don't have equality under law, nor even rule of law. The majority of us are beneath the law, where the police can seize our property without recourse, and we can be convicted and imprisoned just to serve as warm bodies to fill private prisons.
The first step to banishing demons is identifying them. By your outlook, Anonymous Coward it appears you pretend they don't exist, that everything is fine.
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Re: Socialist much?
re: “Something something three meals away from revolution.”
There will be no revolution without outside help, and the cowardly cops who shoot people in the back (with alarming and blatantly increasing frequency ) know this.
These same, allied with Save the Wimmins NGOs have calculatedly controlled the revolution since the 1960s, learning from how the FBI targeted (primarily white )male union organizers from the IWW in the 1920s, to Black Panthers who were male, to todays #fakerape culture, fueled by the LGBTEtc gay Twitter mafia and Kommunity Kultur Klubs and Kovens (K 4）.
You cant have an actual revolution without people who will actually fight it, and thats why the DVIC/PIC fakerape crying controlled opposition is so successful.
Meanwhile, the tactical assault on males who voice meant ngful dissent, or opposition is thriving, chiefly organized gang stalking by FBI /DHS CVE funded private contractors and community policing.
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"no revolution without outside help"
Then we'd best hope the Allies come before they finish eradicating us all.
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Re: "no revolution without outside help"
Uriel, as someone who has been targeted by every scumbag agency, NGOs , and even the ADL, I must interject this: zionazis are very selective, and they use inter -linked databases to communicate in a secret, non -public manner.
A mountain of FOIAs will reveal only the tip of the ICEberg.
Or, maybe a few retired FBI types, who still remember what a non -Israelified America can be, for all of us, black, white, red, yellow, etc.
In my mind, democracy is worth mantaining, and I for one, try to maintain it.
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"democracy is worth mantaining"
Except that our alleged democracy is already nominal.
Even if we assumed as our constitutional framers did, that the people know what they need, can prioritize their needs, and can vote accordingly (which they've demonstrated they can't) Larry Lessig has already demonstrated how elections in the US are controlled by our top one hundred richest families such as the DeVoss family (this one) and the Sackler family.
You can't maintain democracy, at least not here in the states. It is long dead in the water. There is scant (but non-zero) hope that we can reform the oligarchy we have into something that may look slightly more democratic in years. But considering we're crapping ourselves to extinction, I'm not counting on it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
The commenter made no such assertion. He/she merely noted that the US has historically admitted for permanent residence far more immigrants than any other country.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Yes, they did. Just not in that comment.
In a different comment, however (emphasis mine):
How does that not amount to an assertion that the only metric that matters in determining what a "fair share" is, is the total size of the immigrant population?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Not the only metric, just one that doesn't support your views. :)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds l
Do you have a reason (beyond "it doesn't support your views") that we shouldn't use per-capita and GDP figures to determine how many immigrants/refugees the US should be taking in, in order to constitute a "fair share?"
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Soun
"use per-capita and GDP figures"
Why do you keep ignoring one of those figures ion your arguments?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
He made a statement of fact. He did not in the slightest suggest that only his metric was valid, as was dismissively done by others.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Because of the things I already said that you are deliberately ignoring.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
That depends on if you’re interested in things like context and not stopping at ooga booga large numbers. You seem to know how to use the internet, try researching where those numbers fit in context
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
3 times more than the next closest country Paul. You can dance all around it, you can throw context at it, you can toss in per capita/country size/GDP/the amount of tea in China.... but it doesn't change the fact that 46 million of our population are immigrants. No other country is even close. We are doing our fair share.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Again, raw figures rather than factual context.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Again. Facts that can't be disputed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Nobody's disputing them, we're merely asking you read the rest of the story.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Rest of what story? The U.S. is having a hard time dealing with the massive influx of immigrants that are rushing our borders right now. 146K in May alone. Sorry we can't put them in the Hilton, maybe they should have thought about that BEFORE they broke the law?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
The situation is very complex, and each individual reason for people doing what they've done is going to be very different with different solutions. But, you found some numbers to frighten you and a way to dehumanise them as a group so that you can justify inhumane treatment, outright abuse, even kidnapping children, while still pretending to be morally superior, which is nice for you.
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Re: Which one is it?
Those asking for Asylum didn’t break the law. The US us however dodging its treaty obligations by not admitting them until their paperwork is processed. Or are you ok with separating families from each other with no organised way to reunite them? Maybe you should have thought about that before you defended putting children in cages you wouldn’t put a dog in.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
3 times more than the next closest country Paul. Think about it... We have more immigrants than some countries have in population.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
You also have a larger population and larger population than most countries. Why do you keep ignoring the facts that provide context?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
What context? The U.S. has 46 million immigrants. More than the next 4 countries combined. How is the U.S. immigration system the problem?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
"What context? "
The many factors and data points you choose to ignore because you found a scary-sounding raw number.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
The many factors and data points you choose to ignore because you found a scary-sounding raw number.
Including the fact that American foreign policy created the conditions that drove them from their homes. Mad idea: stop interfering in other countries' internal affairs and see the immigration numbers drop.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
The entire western hemisphere took us in against their will, so...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
There's a simple solution to all of this, isn't there?
You just need to build your big, beautiful, bigly, strongly wall right down the center of the Rio Grande instead of on the US side of the border. That way, when they cross, they won't be on US soil, and this won't be a problem.
Should be a simple feat given Mexico's footing the bill, right?
I thought you simpletons already had this figured out? It sure seemed like it watching the chimps chant at the rallies.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Yes, building that wall will fix everything.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
So then what's the hold up?
A whole bunch of suckers donated to a gofundme. Where's the wall?
Trump promised Mexico's paying for it. Where's the check so things can get started?
Trump declared a national emergency. Where's the wall?
You had two years of a GOP-controlled House, Senate, and Executive branch that did nothing to build a goddamn thing.
So I'm asking - where in the fuck is the goddamn wall, big mouth? Is there any substance to all the GOP's talk, or are they as impotent as they look?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
I find people's responses to sarcasm interesting.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
I see that the immigration and human rights experts who reside at TD do not appreciate even a modest dose of reality.
As for me, my emphasis when unexpected guests as you posit show up is to emphasize recreational opportunities.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like karma
If you actually had an idea of the reality on the southern border you wouldn’t be so cavalier about the situation. But facts don’t help you polish your e-peen. And let’s all hope you find one day yourself on the receiving end on the kind of “aid” you would offer to people.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
If there were 7.9 billion people trying to enter the US, you might have had a point there.
The actual numbers seem to be in "hundred thousand" range, so even though I'm quite a bit poorer than the average US citizen, I'm pretty sure I could support an additional 0.0004 people in my apartment for a few months.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
?!?!?! WTF?
There are between 11 million and 20 million illegals in the U.S. right now, with more on the way.
(The reason for the huge range in estimation is that we're not allowed to do anything to actually count how many illegals are here because that's somehow raaaaaciiiist.)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
... and the largest percentage is from what country?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Forgot to address this.
I'm a European, and we have to deal with tens of millions of immigrants caused in large part by your endless wars and support for terrorist groups in the Middle East. We still take them in, and manage it much better than the so-called "land of the free, home of the brave". So you and your "informed, non-judgmental" attitude can go stick your head where the sun don't shine.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
To be fair, the anthem doesn't say what they're free from.
Compassion? Empathy? Decency? Good judgement? Ethics in general?
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Land of the free
Free from the fetters of British rule.
But more than happy to fetter their own.
For the most of us, it was substituting one form of serfdom for another, usually sharecropping or the truck system.
Then there's the slaves.
Then there's the natives who we massacred and whose land we took.
The promise in the 19th century was An honest day's work for an honest day's pay. It was a promise seldom kept already. But then the gold rush changed all that.
Now the American dream is getting rich by being lucky or sacrificing your moral integrity. No wonder our edifices crumble beneath us.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
[Citation needed]
In all seriousness, my father served in one of those wars you love to hate just because it's a war and with no other meaningful context whatsoever. You know what he saw? Tons of normal people mortally afraid of the actual terrorist groups they've had to live with among them for centuries and immensely grateful at the help he was there to provide. And I'm not talking about the military force he certainly sometimes had to use. I'm talking about just day to day assistance with whatever they needed.
So you can go on with your delusional life thinking you're helping people just because you give some help to those that manage to find a way to escape these nightmare countries without getting caught and tortured in the process. We will continue to fight to actually do something about the problem itself.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
If that's true, Cdaragorn, your father did a good thing. Unfortunately that's not always the case. We've got Western powers and the Russians fighting dirty proxy wars in Syria, Ukraine, and South American countries and that is where the refugees are coming from now.
In Afghanistan, the US was actually supporting child abusers.
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/americas-enduring-bacha-bazi-problem-afghanistan-23557
Imagine being told to shut up and ignore this because we don't want to upset the warlords we like in case they stop fighting against the warlords we don't like. Don't get me started on the Opium.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47861444
The Iraqi conflict was based on lies (the 9/11 attackers were predominantly Saudi Arabs) and claimed more than a million lives.
When military action is based more around ideology than solid facts, we're going to make a bigger mess than the problem we're hoping to solve in the first place.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
RE: Nightmare countries?
You should read Techdirt more often, to see how our no -holds barred prison corporations and the DVIC act as de facto slave masters, or how due process free Ammuricca makes a small plot of land near the Tigres look like paradise.
I mean, apologies to Daddy Jingoism, the freedumb fitter, but, really, the quality of life for poor /marginal people in communist /authoritarian countries makes your dada look like a baby maiming dumbass.
And maybe, take a look at how Murricas private contractors, aka Israelified gangcstalkers are trying to return the,US to pre -McCarthyistic fantasy Jesus castles.
Areal eye opener, and the poor, the disenfranchised, the heretic or the real Jew, and the mentally ill none better off.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
You let your prescription expire again, didn't you?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
This comment triggered my BS Meter to such an extent I am unsure if it can be restored to working order.
There is to my knowledge no country that approaches the historical number of immigrants annually admitted for residency within the United States.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
By raw figures or per capita? Context really matter here. Show your work.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Show my work for you? No way...your predictable arrogance leads me to believe that you are more than capable of using a search engine to verify that in absolute numbers the US leads the world in admitting immigrants for residency (which numbers balloon when those who enter the US illegally are added to the mix).
Of course, you already know this...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
"Google it, numbskull" isn't a valid argument.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
It’s a favourite one with these guys. You don’t find support for his claims? That just means you can’t google right. You find stuff that says something different to his claims? You found the wrong thing. Plus by forcing others to do his research for him, he’s wasted at least several readers’ time without having to even look to see if he can support his own argument, let alone risk being called out for being wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
it is with PauT, TDs resident, wallet waving, Eurotrash, time sucking, hasbara -like vampire.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
It must be scary to be so full of hate, yet have access to so little of the real world in your own head.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Ok so you refuse to cite your own claims but at least admit that you’re talking absolute numbers. Which is a pointless measurement in these arguments for reasons that should be obvious.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Apparently, reading for comprehension is not your strong suit.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Then what did I miss outside of you providing one part of the story and pretending it's the whole thing?
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Re: Sounds like a toilet flushing
Look bro if you can’t be assed to back up your assertions, then I can’t be assed believe the steaming pile you dropped off here.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Wait a minute. I'm thinking your just an ass hole. You tell this guy to show his work, then up above you mock me because "I can use the internet". Talk out both sides of your mouth much?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Considering the fact that it obviously wasn't functioning correctly to begin with, you should count yourself lucky to be quit of the shoddy thing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Is Britain, Finland, Sweden, France, Germany, etc. still part of Europe, or were they excommunicated or something?
Because they were direct beneficiaries /propinents of those wars you speak about, numbnutz.
Take your gripe up with the Israeli billionaires and the Red Shield klan who keep sqwawking about what a threat they are under, as they displace whole populations pre -emptively.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
"if two dozen homeless people suddenly, but peaceably entered your house ...."
Not the same thing - at all.
This is similar to the silly antics that attempt to compare the economics of a family to that of a nation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
How did this steaming pile manage to make First Word?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like
Well, at least it's not the deranged shitheel ranting about "illegals", "the Left", California, "TDS," or the Southern Strategy-ignoring "DEMOCRATS imprisoned the Japanese Americans!"
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Why do they need 'protection under the constitution' for these facilities to follow the law and the detainees be provided protection under the law? Other countries do it without that much-vaunted constitution.
Oh and by the way, they may be detained to determine if they are breaking the law, not that they ARE breaking the law. That's what judges and courts are for.
I bet you're one of those people who think that only guilty people get arrested
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"On the other hand, they are breaking the law and know that"
For a lot of immigrants, this is the better choice. Break the law or face certain death/rape/starvation? You'd be a lawbreaker too.
"They are also not US Citizens with the guaranteed protection of the Constitution"
If you think that you need the protection of the US constitution to get basic human rights, that says more about you than the people in the cells.
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
False dichotomy. They could also choose to do something to fix their problems instead of running away from them.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
False assertion. No, they can't since the only result of fighting their situation would be said death/rape/starvation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Last I checked, and aside from a few localized areas of high cartel density (You could argue gangs in the U.S. in comparison), Mexico is by and large just as safe, as the U.S.?
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Mexic o
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
False assertion. No, they can't since the only result of fighting their situation would be said death/rape/starvation.
^This.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Not when the US is arming the government that is causing the problem, and the drugs trade is funding the drug lords that are the other half of the problem.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Yes, because so many of those brutal regimes are known for their compassion toward people who stand up to them, especially those in the throes of endless US-created wars or cartel battles.
Are you really this stupid, or do you just get a kick out of feigning ignorance on the internet?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
They could also apply for asylum in the first country they come to where they're not facing death and rape, like the law says they should. Being a refugee doesn't mean you get your pick of wherever you want to live in the world.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
True, but many of them aren’t actually choosing for themselves. Even if they were, why not choose the country that literally has a landmark welcoming immigrants over the ones the cartels can pay off to ship them straight back?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
Because they don't get to make up their own rules and laws.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
You also don't get to treat them less than human because you don't like the specific law they broke.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for
Strawman. I never advocated treating anyone as 'less than human'. And no, merely enforcing our borders does not qualify for that.
Also, what makes you think I don't like the law they broke?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Like the United States.... oh dear.
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That is no excuse for the treatment they receive from the U.S. government.
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Re:
Even if it were, the Constitution is mostly a series of statements about what the government must, can, and cannot do. Rarely does citizenship enter into it.
The portions of the Bill of Rights that say that the government cannot do what they're currently doing (the Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Amendments, from what I can see) do not qualify their statements: 5 protects a "person," 6 protects "the accused," 7 and 8 merely state what the Government is not allowed to do under any circumstances.
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Stop right there. The Eighth Amendment imposes this restriction on government:
There is nothing in that Amendment about citizens. It can only be read as applying to everyone, citizen or not.
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
There is court precedent to support your assertion, too. The constitution applies to everyone everywhere with regard to how the US government interacts with them.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"The constitution applies to everyone everywhere with regard to how the US government interacts with them."
Except within 200 miles of a border, so not quite everyone everywhere
Also see: No warrant required to search house unless something is found that requires a warrant. So not in your house either.
How about airports?
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Note the word "and" between cruel and unusual.
That means a punishment has to be both in order to violate the amendment. There are plenty of punishments that are cruel but not too many that are unusual given the extensive creativity that people have displayed in murdering each other over the centuries. And since the punishment has to be both cruel and unusual to violate the 8th Amendment, that seems like a high bar to clear.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
If only you had 400 years if caselaw to guide you on what constitutes cruel AND unusual..,
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Yeah, that would be nice, but since the U.S. is only 231 years old, I'm gonna have to wait a while for that.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
So then, 231 years' worth isn't enough?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
That was an extension of British common law when the Brits came over illegally.
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"need to be treated with respect"
I apologize in advance for this pet peeve.
A better choice in vernacular would be the word "dignity" as the word "respect" is not demanded, it is given. When respect is demanded, it is not respect that is desired.
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
If these people are seeking Asylum,. that doesn't mean once you cross the border you keep on going because you don't want to be in Mexico in this case. That's not how Asylum works.
If the left didn't just tell people to come on over Illegally like they have been, really just to get votes, there wouldn't be this surge of people let alone crowed rooms because we're running out of space for all these people.
These people have NO RIGHT to come into this country. That is a simple fact. They can apply, do things LEGALLY to come into this country. They have to get in line just like everyone else that wants to come here. It doesn't matter the skin color. you leftists are always make everything about RACE. Like protecting our own country from being invaded is racist, which it's not.
If it was a flood of the whitest Canadians flooding down into the U.S. it wouldn't change anything. I don't give a crap what country you are from or what color you are. Why some people can't understand Legal vs ILLEGAL!!! A country without borders is not a country.
The simple fact is, all these Illegals are bringing in Diseases, their bad habits like just throwing trash on the ground, California is turning into a huge DUMP. Diseases that were wiped out are now making a comeback. They keep wages down low for poor Americans because you have a lot of cheap Illegal labor.
Canada protects its borders. When you are a welfare state, you can't afford a flood of illegals. Of course here in California where they care more about Illegals than actual American's. A state that is broke yet has high taxes, just rolled out the welcome map for 100% free Health Care to Illegals. They say costing 100 million!!! You know it'll end up being 5 times that and continue to grow in costs. Yet not poor American's!!! Talking about driving more Illegals into this country and now into this state.
All this is hurting more and more Americans no matter their color. Not sure why the left cares more about Illegals than actual American's.
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"If the left didn't just tell people to come on over Illegally"
First: citation needed. Second - was that before or after Reagan granted them amnesty?
"If it was a flood of the whitest Canadians flooding down into the U.S. it wouldn't change anything."
Strangely, more people are illegally overstaying visas than sneak over the border.
"Diseases that were wiped out are now making a comeback"
Yep, those anti-vaxxers are idiots, especially living in the most populous state and one of the more popular tourist destination in the union where there's inevitably more risk of being exposed to people from other countries regardless of their legal situation.
Now, where did immigrants come into this?
"Canada protects its borders. When you are a welfare state, you can't afford a flood of illegals'
Yet, they do a roaring trade in Americans crossing the border to get healthcare. Funny, that.
"Not sure why the left cares more about Illegals than actual American's."
Because nationality doesn't change their status as a human in their eyes? Or, because the immigrants are escaping real hardship while the right wing just parrot fearmongering that doesn't address the root causes of their problems (hint: it's not primarily immigrants at fault, no matter who Fox is telling you to be afraid of).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
What hardships are being "escaped" in Mexico? They are not doing that bad on wealth per capita if you compare the entire globe, crime is about the same as the U.S., and I would argue it's just as beautiful there.
The problem is; They have an extremely rich uncle living right above them, where life is even better than where they are, even if going there is illegal. You want real contrast? Go south from Mexico.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
You should probably do some actual reading
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
"You should probably do some actual reading"
Is this the equivalent of; "I know you are but what am I"? Because I haven't said anything that I can't back up with facts.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
" Because I haven't said anything that I can't back up with facts."
There's also nothing you said that doesn't mean something different to what you claim ones you examine the context of the numbers.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"You want real contrast? Go south from Mexico."
What nation(s) do you think the immigrants are coming from?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
And when ICE tries to go after visa overstays using technological tools, TechDirt and its cheerleaders in the commentariat howl in outrage.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
They don’t, but thanks for playing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
They did just this week, in fact.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
Cite? I tend to see complaints when they're abusing their power, casting wide nets that catch legal and illegal alike, violating everybpdy's rights regardless, etc. I don't usually see them when the cops are doing their jobs and not breaking the law themselves in the process.
I'll be interested in seeing the story you're referring to if it says what you're implying.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for
Damn ... I wanted to read that TD story where TD howled in outrage.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
So, no citation to show the story says what you say it did? Figures...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
“And when ICE tries to go after visa overstays using technological tools, TechDirt and its cheerleaders in the commentariat howl in outrage.”
Well yeah, when they violate the constitution to do so. Or are you vine with ICE ripping up the constitution because “brown people?”
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
The particular tech they've been using has not been ruled unconstitutional, so there's one strawman easily disposed of.
When all else fails throw out the race card and tie it to that strawman and hope someone is stupid enough to fall for it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
By that logic, the latest Alabama abortion bill isn't unconstitutional, because it hasn't been ruled so, even though it defies a clear Supreme Court ruling that other laws exactly like it (or even less restrictive of abortion than that law) are unconstitutional.
That's a ridiculously narrow definition of "unconstitutional," to say that nothing is unconditional, regardless of what the actual Constitution says, until the Supreme Court signs off on that specific instance of it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for
It's unconstitutional if I say it's unconstitutional.
Also, stop telling me that I am naked. These new clothes are da bomb ... hello? - my eyes are up here.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for
Actually, it has. It's in direct violation of the ruling in Roe vs. Wade.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for
The alternative is what? That anything you personally don't like is unconstitutional, despite no court having ruled it as such?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe
That a layperson can have an opinion about whether something is constitutional or not based on a plain reading of the Constitution, rather than having to memorize centuries worth of case law?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation
Sure. And I can have an opinion about what that angry-looking mole on your skin means despite not having ever set foot in a medical school or read thousands of pages of medical texts.
However, in neither case would such an opinion be correctly characterized as a reliable statement of fact.
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Re: I learned it from you
I provided just as much proof and just as many dog whistles as you did. Don’t like it? Learn to argue properly.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
"When all else fails throw out the race card"
People do seem to complain far more about the displaced people coming to your southern border than they do about the larger problem of people arriving legally then overstaying. If there's a difference that doesn't involve their hispanic heritage it tends to get drowned out by the people who throw a fit when people have private conversations in Spanish.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
Why is it the racists always say “I’m not racist you’re racist” and run away like a bitch?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Rather than address the fact presented for your edification, it is totyally acceptable to simply ignore it and reply with an accusation - brilliant!
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Re: maybe next time keep you mouth shut and let us guess
Most people, other than you and the American President are ashamed of being ignorant.
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"they are breaking the law and know that."
Last I heard, seeking asylum is not illegal in the US.
Has this changed?
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Seeking asylum isn't, but only if it's done legally, according to laws promulgated under the enabling treaty.
For example, you are required to apply for asylum in the first safe country you come to, not just pick whichever country in the world where you most want to live. For the Guatemalans, Salvadorans, Hondurans, etc., that would be Mexico, not the U.S.
It's also illegal to sneak across the border outside a valid port of entry without authorization, then suddenly shout "Asylum!" only when caught. If you're seeking asylum like that, you're doing it illegally.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
I doubt that everyone in the holding cells "sneak across the border outside a valid port of entry without authorization, then suddenly shout "Asylum!" only when caught"
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Hey remember when the US government shut down a border crossing to deter legal asylum seekers and then fired tear gas into a sovereign nation? Care to defend that one chum?
And if you think Mexico is a safe place for women and children fleeing for their lives you’re even stupider than you sound.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
and .... At least one person, in Mexico, lost their life due to someone firing a weapon (from the us) across the border.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Hey, remember when Mexican soldiers fired actual bullets into a sovereign nation at Border Patrol officers in order to protect drug smugglers?
Care to defend that one, chum?
Outside of few bad areas, the crime rate in Mexico is comparable to any U.S. major city.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
Of course it is. When the government murders innocents it's not considered a crime. You're completely ignoring what people are actually saying to bring up a strawman that has nothing to do with the point they're making.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Fof the ones fleeing Guatemala, then well the SHOULD come here, after all since it's the Fault of the US that they have to flee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27état which led to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_Civil_War) they I don't see how it's wrong if they come here.
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
No, many of them are refugees and asylum-seekers.
While there are parts of the US Constitution that only apply to US citizens (such as voting and running for office), you're off-base in implying that the Constitution in its entirety only applies to US citizens. Due process isn't just for citizens.
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
No, the vast, vast majority of them are just economic migrants, which is not a valid justification for asylum under international law.
This is borne out by the 90%+ denial rate of asylum claims once they've been adjudicated by the court. For decades, these folks have been jumping the border and when caught weren't claiming asylum. Now suddenly in the last couple of years, the same economic migrants we've been dealing with for decades are all 'asylum-seekers'. They've discovered a loophole in the law and are abusing the system in massive numbers and we're letting it happen because we're terrified of someone like you saying the word "Raaaaaciiiist!"
They've been coached by everyone from open borders activist to cartels to use the asylum ploy to get their foot in the door, then overwhelm the system with sheer numbers until the U.S. authorities are forced to just start releasing them into the interior with a court date and hope they show up.
Who do you think is organizing these huge caravans? You think 10,000 Hondurans just woke up one day and simultaneously decided to start walking thousands of miles to the U.S.? No, they're being organized by open borders activist groups whose goal is to overwhelm our enforcement and judicial system and bring it crashing down to point where there is no effective enforcement anymore. And the cartels love it, too, because the more border enforcement resources we have to devote to managing the flood of illegals, the less we have to stopping their drug shipments.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Who do you think is organizing these huge caravans?
Trump every time he want to rile up the retards who support him.
And they disappear as soon as the election is over.
Funny, isn't it?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Yep, news about the caravan being America's biggest imminent threat did disappear the day after the election for some reason.
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"Once they've been adjudicated by the court"
You mean the courts that are not actually benched by judges but by prosecutors, where lawyers and language translators are not provided, and where the lines can take years? Where four-year-olds are left to argue their own case?
Yeah, John Oliver deconstructed the theater that passes as fair adjudication in immigration court. They don't know how many asylum claims are valid because they clearly don't want to know.
And in the meantime news keeps coming back of the deaths of those we deport. What news does not cover (much) are the countless migrants who fall into the hands of human traffickers which are often what the migrants were trying to escape in the first place.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
You think 10,000 Hondurans just woke up one day and simultaneously decided to start walking thousands of miles to the U.S.?
No I don't but I do think in this say and age it's easy for a message to spread across social media quickly enough that people can more quickly and easily band together. Plus as a large group of people start moving other smaller groups might link up because of safety in numbers.
While I'm sure people will try to abuse loop holes (Americans do it all the time with taxes) I haven't seen evidence that it is a wide spread problem like fox news and Trump claim it is. Wide spread for me in this case would be higher than 20 percent of cases where seekers lied to gain entry. Below that amount it is important to still stop but since the numbers of people are less likely or able to cause problems this becomes no longer a top priority when applying limited resources.
Also consider what's required for motivation: to uproot your life and family, travel for months in camping conditions with a large crowd of people, walking the whole way, exposed to the weather, and be treated inhumanely, All so you can risk getting thrown back at the border or shortly after entering because you lied. Yeah that doesn't sound very likely. Not saying impossible, but with all the other context at play I think we can safely assume the vast majority really do need asylum.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
You should write for WND.com you’ve got quite the gift for fact free conspiracy horseshit.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"No, the vast, vast majority of them are just economic migrants"
Are they really, though?
But, a few things here - first, and most importantly, even though you're making the distinction, a hell of a lot of people are not. Actual asylum keepers are being caught up in this crap, and they get derogatorily referred to as "Mexicans" by you rednecks no matter where they came from, or for what reason. It's a complex situation, but simpletons like you think a magic wall will fix everything.
On top of that, a lot of these people, even economic migrants, are being displaced by things the US has done. The war on drugs, interventions in central and south America, etc. - people are often fleeing to you because you destroyed their homes.
Also, you want to stop economic migration? Wouldn't it be better to be attacking the people giving them jobs rather than pouring your time and money into border concentration camps? This is hardly a new problem, and new people will be coming in so long as Americans are happily employing them. Nobody will migrate for economic reasons if there's no jobs waiting for them on the other side.
Finally, you're not being called racist because you want controlled borders. You're being called racist because the only type of illegal immigration you care about involved one race. If you cared about the other types - especially since at least one is a bigger problem than border foot traffic - as much as you cared about the one involving brown people, you'd escape the racist label.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
For a person with no apparent close ties to the United States, you sure like to give the impression to others that you have keen insight into matters thousands of miles removed from where your TD profile says you reside. Perhaps it would lend credence to your opinions for you to share your unique source of expertise that render such opinions more than just talking through your hat.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsu
"For a person with no apparent close ties to the United States"
I have plenty of family and friends there and travel there at least once per year. Not everybody is as isolationist as the people who think a magic wall will solve all their problems.
Do you have any actual rebuttal to anything I'm saying, or are you just desperate to find a way to wave them away without getting into the real complexity and workable solutions that don't involve human rights abuses?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a l
Excuse me if I remain unpersuaded that your family, friends and occasional trips imbue you with relevant and meaningful insight. Of course, it does not help your cause that you feel the need to mock and insult those who may happen to disagree with you.
Perhaps you should stick with opining about immigration issues associated with Spain, and practice circumspection when it comes to issues over which your comments manifest no more than a superficial familiarity.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for
So, no interest in the actual issues, only simplistic hand waving based on assumptions and mild xenophobia? Combined with the predictable argument from authority without ever explaining what your supposed authority consist of?
Sadly predictable, but you continue whatever makes you feel comfortable about abuses being committed in your name.
"Perhaps you should stick with opining about immigration issues associated with Spain"
Intelligent people can do more one thing at one time, and I have opinions about all 5 major countries currently associated with my close friends and family. This thread happens to be about the US, and not one of those countries, so this is the place for my opinion on that. I'll save my opinion on other systems where it's appropriate.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Why do you assume I'm not in favor of that? Oh, yeah, because your entire style of posting here is to make fact-less assumptions about others, then condemn them for it.
Just for the record, I am in favor prosecuting those employ illegal aliens with a vengeance. There should be significant penalties for it, to include jail time, not just fines. WalMart can shit out a $250,000 fine and not even notice it. Just the cost of doing business for them. No, there need to be arrests and not just for the store managers in these big corporations. Start holding the big guys at the top criminally liable. Put a couple of executive VPs in the clink for a year and the word will get out real fast. These companies will quickly discover a way to comply with the law and only hire legal employees.
Again, what makes you think that? Certainly nothing I've actually said. It's just something you cooked up in your blinkered imagination. I want the border enforced against all illegals, no matter what they look like or how they got there. I want the Swede who overstayed her visa rounded up and deported just as much as I want the Guatemalan who jumped the Rio Grande. I want the northern border as effectively governed as the southern border.
The reason my comments have focused on the southern border in this thread is because that's what the TechDirt article is about, you bloody idiot.
I have not referred to them as Mexicans, so that's a bald-faced lie. In fact, the only nationality I've mentioned here in this thread is Honduran. Combine the lie with your disingenuous, puerile, and derogatory name-calling and you've effectively zeroed out your credibility here.
Have a nice day.
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Russian and Ukranian undocumenteds
As I've noted elsewhere, our communities of Eurasian illegal migrants in the Bay Area and California basin don't get any flak from anyone for their lack of documentation, even when the nearby Chinese and Latin communities are poked at frequently by (Federal) law enforcement.
The whole hunt for migrants is systemically racist.
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Re: Russian and Ukranian undocumenteds
Not so fast there on the broad brush, because without numbers indicating that these Eurotrash of which you speak are somehow actually not targeted, its just hyperbole- another attempt to racialize the discussion.
In my former state, and yours too, I was integrally and intimately involved with many targeted immigrants of which you speak, and I know that you are factually wrong on many levels.
And, while their are racial features in the dialogue, note that race cuts both ways. For example, those in the tribal, sectarian One Percent largely live in your area, and control our insight into, and media narrative of this topic too.
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
"They are also not US Citizens with the guaranteed protection of the Constitution, AFAIK."
Wrong.
Once you are in the country (inside US borders) persons detained have the same protections of the law as a citizen.
That includes the 4th and 5th amendment and human treatment by law enforcement.
Here is an article that gives an overview
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2017/01/30/does-the-constitution-protect-non-citi zens-judges-say-yes/#4c75fd5b4f1d
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
Most of them do, and have historically, not just benefited, but outright supported our society.
Also, you realize that most "Mexicans" are just people native to this continent, subjugated and used by colonial powers like the US and Mexico. We as a society would not have anything we do without them. Including their goddamned land. (Also including the lands we illegally settled and stole from Mexico. Yep.)
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Re: Re: Sounds like a situation ripe for a lawsuit
I'm late to the party and haven't read through the other 500+ replies, but I wanted to mention something.
The U.S. Constitution actually uses the word "people" rather than "citizen". This is significant because as a legal document, the wording matters. Lawyers interpret this stuff very precisely and the Constitution's use of the words "people" and "person" applies to everyone inside the country, regardless of their immigration status.
So yes, they do have the guaranteed protections of the U.S. Constitution.
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Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
Well yes, but you see as dirty foreigners who have been accused of violating the law(and are thus definitely criminals) it's not like they're human and thus deserving humane treatment after all, and honestly, they're being housed and fed at no cost to them when there are real Americans homeless and starving that the government could be ignoring, so if anything they should feel lucky to be getting the treatment they are. Not to mention they wouldn't have to deal with any of that if they'd just stayed home, so really it's their fault anyway and they have only themselves to blame.
... now if you'll excuse me, I suddenly feel the need to take a long shower and thoroughly rise my mouth out with water in order to get rid of the feeling of having waded through sewage with a mouth full of vomit that mysteriously appeared after typing the above. I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
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Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
... now if you'll excuse me, I suddenly feel the need to take a long shower and thoroughly rise my mouth out with water in order to get rid of the feeling of having waded through sewage with a mouth full of vomit that mysteriously appeared after typing the above.
ToG that is the cherished viewpoint of the Alt-Right, Nazis, and Trumpistastas. What could possibly be wrong with putting mexicans into concentration camps? Blessed are the children who are lost and die in the camps.
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Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
We do that to the homeless and others we marginalize.
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Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
Thoughts and prayers.
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Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
It's the left driving these people into this country like they are. When gets them into these places.
By the way, it was Democrats who actually put Japenese Americans into actual Camps!!! Keyword AMERICAN'S!!!!!
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Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
Not this again
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Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
A Republican freed the slaves, yes, we get it. Do you not know about the Southern Strategy and the shift in party alignments on such issues?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
No because actual history is inconvenient to their shithouse talking points.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
"A Republican freed the slaves"
It is not funny to watch these types yell that bullshit while beating the crap outta some non-white.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumaniza
I know, huh, like, “they ” did to poor Jussie Smollet!
Those KKK guys from Africa, Abimbola and Olabinjo Osundairo, beat up the poboy!
https://www.apnews.com/JussieSmollett
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Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
Camps?
You mean, like,Russia, and Holodmor? Funny how the spokesersons of the ONE PERCENT always forget Holodmor.
Or, is the leftist position only fashionable when its not so obviously right wing as Stalin was; and the body counts primarily “the others ” ?
The way the left uses the term camp these days is drag queens at burlesque, whining about missing hot water in the shower, while on a luxury cruise.
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Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
It is entirely possible that some of the readers of this blog are not as intimately aware of these camps to which you refer and they are not interested enough to research the topic.
Just sayin'
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
Well, apparently, that includes you, too.
Thanks for playing ROGS tribal -sectarian BINGO!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25058256
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Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
What the fuck has that got to do with the topic in question?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Step one to comitting atrocities: Dehumanization
Dear Dipshit AC :
The topic here in the comments is “dehumanization " and someone brought up "camps, "and how totalitarian police states utiluze said camps.
Does that clarify it, Dipshit AC?
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Step 2: Budgetary Concerns
When it's decided it's too expensive to deport them or contain them -- if we follow the logic of the Wannsee Conference -- then the only resort that remains is evacuation of the detainees.
Then the next chunk of the discussion is making sure everyone understands what evacuation means without expressing it in words clearly put down by the stenographer. Even Heydrich and Eichmann weren't able to outright say the plan is to massacre twenty three million human beings from all across Europe, And yet they discussed the success of Auschwitz plant, the speed it was reducing the camp population, and the plan to convert more work camps into processing stations.
Nope, it sounds like we are right on schedule. Both Trump and Miller have had a hard time not being blatantly obvious about their desires, and their eagerness to enact them as policy.
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trumps admin is past caring
Maybe the administration doesn't understand how the processes of borders, refugees, foreign aid, and human rights intertwine. But most likely the Trump administration does understand and these crappy conditions are exactly what they want people to think about before they start the journey to seek asylum, as a deterence method.
Either way its obvious that human lives are being disregarded. I dont understand how the anyone in America could look at these conditions and say "it's okay."
I really hope Trump is impeached and that he and the members of his cabinet that were associated with this mess are jailed.
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Re: trumps admin is past caring
Impeachment means nothing when there's no way the Senate will convict and remove him from office. If he is impeached, he'll just use it to drum up more support in 2020. I'd rather the Dems keep gathering evidence that can be used in a criminal trial after he leaves office.
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Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
My stance at this point is they should open an impeachment inquiry but not hold an impeachment vote until and unless public opinion shifts in favor of one.
I understand that impeaching a president against public opinion is not a good electoral strategy (see Clinton), but I also understand that an impeachment investigation that reveals a steady stream of criminal activity can shift public opinion in favor of impeachment (see Nixon).
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Re: Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
"My stance at this point is they should open an impeachment inquiry but not hold an impeachment vote until and unless public opinion shifts in favor of one."
So facts be damned. Lets go with mob rules?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
Thamk you for clearly labeling your strawman.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
How is pointing out the inconvenient implications of a bad argument a strawman?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
When "pointing out the inconvenient implications of a bad argument" bears zero resemblence to what you actually did?
(unless you're talking about your own argument)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
Its not the mob -its Kommunity Kulture Klubs and Kovens (K 4) “community policing ”off the political sphere.
They really are the new Klans.
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Re: trumps admin is past caring
If they're trying to come to this country for Asylum, that's not how it works. Once you cross the border into another country, you STOP!!! In this case, they crossed into MEXICO. You have no right to say you don't want to stay in Mexico as you like the U.S. better and so just travel through Mexico to get here.
We can't take in masses of people like this. Plus there are people around the world doing things LEGALLY to come here, but having to wait in line.
By the way, Trump will never get Impeached. You have been brainwashed. Trump has broken no laws. There is nothing to Impeach him on other then you don't like him. There's been talk of Impeachment before he even stepped foot in office. You're going to be greatly disappointed when he's elected by a even larger margen for his second term. Many of you seem to have TDS.
We like every other country have the right to protect our borders. They have no right to just come here. Sucking up resources from are already welfare state. It's been the left encouraging these people to come here. Pandering for more votes to stay in power.
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Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
In this case, they crossed into MEXICO.
And then they crossed the Rio Grande into the US and hit the wall - that's how they got here. Not sure what's holding up building your ginormous, bigly, beautiful wall thingy in the middle of the Rio Grande where it belongs (you know, where the actual border is).
Perhaps the big orange dicktard with all the bigly, beautifully simple ideas should ping Mexico on that check he said they were sending...
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Re: Re: Re: trumps admin is past caring
I've been waiting patiently at this river for a few months now and not one American come to me and asked if I was seeking asylum.
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That's what we do to our homeless people so why should ICE do anything different?
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Re:
Sadly that attitude is the reason Western society is rotting. You won't fight for better treatment, you'll only be thankful that what you consider the lowest among you is not worse off than the next lowest.
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Re: Re:
If it is that bad, maybe some people have a point. Get people off the streets before you bring more people in to fill the streets again.
I also see you keep bringing up wealth of the USA. Any idea about their debt? You claim to be smart, I would think debt would be a key metric in determining wealth, wouldn't you? Sorry if I missed it, I just haven't seen the word trillions anywhere yet.
If you liquidated all of your assets and had $1M, would you consider yourself wealthy if you owed $4M? I'd say yes you have $1M, but you are in the poorhouse. You be broke y'all
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Re:
Heh - that makes it ok.
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How about ...
... the US stops destabilizing democratically elected socialist governments and support authoritarian dictators in central america?
Maybe the people would be happy to say at home.
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this is the sort of thing that started in Nazi Germany! look where that led! this treatment is intolerable and how can a US President, a man who is supposed to be on the side of right, justice, freedom and privacy, condone it! i'm just waiting for pictures to emerge similar to Auschwitz shower rooms and ovens!
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Which brings up one of my greater fears
Remember how when the Snowden revelations came out, it wasn't just that the government was totally spying on ordinary people, but they had been doing it since the early aughts.
What's worse than learning your own nation has an industrialized genocide program?
Learning your own nation has an industrialized genocide program that's been actively processing people for the last ten years.
Right now I'm wondering how plausible it might be to bust down and liberate these overcrowded detention facilities. The captives might fare better in the wilds of the US than they will packed in with CBP thugs reveling in their misery.
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Make America great again -- deport Trump.
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Re:
Nice idea, but who would want him?
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Re: Re:
I'm just happy you let him back in, although I'm not sure why.
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Re: Re:
I was going to say Russia, but he'd be of no use to them once he's not President.
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Re:
You can't deport someone who is a citizen of your country and not a citizen of any other.
There is, however, a nice resort in Cuba that the US claims as their own...
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Re:
Oh, you poor person, another with TDS.
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Re: Re:
Good job, that’s almost a complete sentence.
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Re: Re:
So simply disliking Trump automatically makes one deranged? How deranged do you have to be to believe that?
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Re: Re: Re:
Republicans who fixated on Obama’s birthplace (despite it being proven more thoroughly than previous presidents) and Benghazi (despite being more to do with Bush era defunding than Clinton) were referred to as deranged. Lacking facts and imagination, they’ve started to use the same words back at people with very real and factually supported issues with the orange clown.
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My girl is a legal immigrant. She came from West Africa through the front door, not a rear window. She payed the fee with help and passed the test. She was also told she had to vote Democrat, WTF. She has since left the Plantation.
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Re:
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but.... I'll stop there.
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Our Congress sucks, all of them.
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One must examine the obvious template used by the gendarmes, concerning their charges. It's called Auschwitz. It's called Birkenau. It's also known as Dachau. ICE has no concerns, as it's all a dress-rehearsal for eventual mass-concentration camp plans, targeting the poor, the elderly, the disabled, the Liberal, and certainly disproportionate numbers of those with black or brown skin. What we see here predicts the Amerika long desired by the rabid reich-wingers, who lust further for ovens that will hold 200 at a time. We'll be well down the road to this not-so-distant future, as Blump is either elected (yes, Amerika is that stupid), or forcefully retains power past 2021, with the full support of over one-hundred million slobbering, ass-scratching idiots chewing on their MAGA caps. And then there's Putin, who has dreamed of just such an Amerika for over forty years as a KGB veteran. He'll finally realize his dream, with his lapboy in the White House--who is at least white, non-Muslim, non-Socialist, non-HILLARY!, and not born on Neptune (are we certain about that?). Welcome to the Neue Amerika we've always dreamed about!
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Re:
Meh. That was,a long time ago.
Today, we call it Israelification, and its your people doing it to Palestinians, starting with the Pal. Exodus of 1948, and extending to Israelification and hasbara polluting media channels; and even Mossadi jihadis in Guatemala, etc.
Yeah, the zionazis lost te WW 2, but they are winning the Israelification wars now.
Lets talk about THAT, not some shit from a zillion year ago.
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Stop the wars.
Those people are running away from violence in the countries of origin. Who is funding this violence? Why has the area been war torn for decades? Answers to these questions and more will not be forthcoming from any official governmental agency nor the complicit media. What is it ... the oil? Are there minerals there? What ....
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Re:
Possibly because so many of the people affected by the thugs overturning their homes choose to run away rather than stand up for themselves?
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Re: Re:
Oh please ... do you bring a knife to a gun fight?
Victim blaming is the rage, I know - but maybe you should read up on the subject before spewing the propaganda.
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Re: Re:
Kinda hard for the average person to defend themselves against drone strikes.
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Average person defending his home
Average guys standing up to SWAT raids tend not to fair so well either. Here in the states, the ones whose rights to stand and fight are affirmed are vindicated posthumously.
I suspect a band of twenty goons with guns, whether mobsters or law enforcement would be better fled than faced in any nation.
Unless maybe you're a drug lord in a fortress or a cult leader or something.
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Having read many reports about bad conditions in US prisons and jails housing convicted criminals and those awaiting trial, don't really see why illegal invaders of the US should expect nice accommodations complete with good food and recreational facilities. The recent reports of kids being separated from parents at the border is SOP for US citizens sent to jail/prison. Again, why should the invaders be given special and better treatment?
I am glad Trump has made this an issue. Many past Presidents and Congresses have booted this can further down the road as it seems both major Parties see advantage in not solving the issue and blaming the other for the problem. Maybe rubbing all their faces in the problem during an election cycle will prompt action. But I am not holding my breath.
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Re:
We treat our own poorly, why should foreigners get better?
LOL - this is typical wtf bullshit.
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Re:
People who go to jail are eligible for bail.
People who go to prison have been convicted of a crime.
The children of a person who is put in jail or prison are not typically put in cages.
Never mind the whataboutism, your statement that child separation at the border is exactly like child separation inside our borders is completely wrong.
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Re: Re:
I love when ignorant outsiders froom foreign countries try to sound clever about US history and politics, but come off sounding like uninformed cocern trolls instead.
Like how you on one hand, state that "people who go to prisons were convicted of a crime, "and your next play is a race or class or gender card, feigning concern for the poor, the black, or the immigrant.
None of your type know shit about which you speak.
The prison system is a direct descendent /replacement for slavery, and in fact extended well into the 1960s as exactly that: Slavery By Another Name.
Men, and particularly black men were preyed upon by Jewish -christian legal structures that themselves descend from Talmudic, and Torah, and Biblical "buhliefs,”and imprisoned in servitude for decades for such offenses as being outside after the sun went down, or “rape, " aka looking at a white woman.
Please, tell me more about your enduring concern for the law that governs our prisons, and please, feel free to demonstrate even more time -sucking ignorance about that which you claim to speak for.
Sure, "prisoners broke the law. " Sure they did. In the mind of people,JUST LIKE YOU.
And maybe the kids of prisoners arent put into cages, but they are put into foster cae, where the chance of being raped, sodomized, or strapped onto a gurney after protesting abuse or injustice and fraudulently medicated goes up exponentially, as the chance of rape aline goes up 80% the day the kids hit foster care /other arrangements.
Sure, I feel your fact-free concern dripping off your overhanging hasbare unibrow.
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Re: Re: Re:
"Sure, "prisoners broke the law. " Sure they did. In the mind of people,JUST LIKE YOU."
So... you're saying that people are being locked up without breaking the law?
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people locked up in the US without breaking the law?
All. The. Fucking. Time.
We don't have numbers, given there are no checks on the legal system here in the States. But it's plausible there are more innocent, wrongfully convicted people in prison than there are actual criminals. And that's not getting into the masses serving mandatory minimums for drug possession.
Our entire prison system serves as a means to vector warm bodies into private prison cells, to collect convictions for political gain, to justify forcing inmates to labor without compensation or choice, and to stamp people with convicted felon, so they lose rights (such as voting rights) never to regain them.
The US still has the highest incarceration rate in the world. 100.00% chance of indictment. 90% chance of conviction.
Most of us are beneath the law.
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Yes, I am saying that people get locked up EVERY SINGLE DAY in America, WITHOUT BREAKING ANY LAWS.
But you are not from here so please, go away.
I dont have time to educate YET ANOTHER faux -left DUMBASS from a foreign country who adopts convenient, racial /ethnic /class based positions online, as they breeze through the turnstyle to get YET ANOTHER FIRST CLASS TICKET to fly into, and out of my country, without ever engaging in substantive or meaningful historical, legal, or other commentary about WELL DOCUMENTED PRACTICES of our police state.
PaulT, please stay at home, we dont want YOUR TYPE here.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Yes, I am saying that people get locked up EVERY SINGLE DAY in America, WITHOUT BREAKING ANY LAWS"
So... are you saying that you think this is right or good? I'm just trying to understand what you're blathering on about, as usual.
"PaulT, please stay at home, we dont want YOUR TYPE here."
So, you don't want my business, you only want people who don't pay their way. Got it.
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What a redundant idiot. A typical vapid, Euro trash argument.
I dont think that your big spending here on some outlet store Adidas, fake Rolexes, and bar hopping in a rented hooptie with Easy -E blasting out the windows will dent our national debt much.
Please stay away. Spain needs real keyboard heroes like you to hold the "fake criticism of America” line steady.
I get the idea that you just like wasting time, and now, LOOK!
You, foisting your Polo wallet in the air, like a true freedom fighter, lol.
/FULL FACEPALM
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So you hate capitalism?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No, just insufferable persons.
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re: insufferable persons
https://www.apnews.com/JussieSmollett
AHHHWWWGGGH! THE US IS FULL OF KKK! Can I bring my wallets to beat them with? Will TSA let my wallets through the checkpointz?
I have a black friend!
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Men, and particularly black men were preyed upon by Jewish -christian legal structures that themselves descend from Talmudic, and Torah, and Biblical "buhliefs,”and imprisoned in servitude for decades for such offenses as being outside after the sun went down, or “rape, " aka looking at a white woman.
You mean republicans, no?
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AC, considering that the Democrats were the ones who started KKK 1-3, and todays K 4 Multi Kultural Klans and Kovens too, I would have to pass on your question, because, COMPLETELY FUCKING STUPID.
Unless, of course, you want to engage in a dialigue about "who are neocon zionazis, "in which we see both sides of our political spectrum tainted by mystery billionaires “whoever “they” are. ”
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whataboutism
So you are still using this shtick. I thought you quit when you didn't call Mike on it about snarfing up data in regards to Google and Facebook a couple articles back.
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Maybe if you stopped thinking of them as "invaders"
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Maybe if you stopped thinking of them as "invaders"
They're not invaders, nor are they criminals. They're refugees.
We have big chunks of international law regarding the treatment of refugees thanks to Napoleon's Grande Armée showing all of Europe that anyone can me made a refugee by surprise. Hitler did a good job remind us again.
Despite the Bush administration opinions otherwise, if the United States were to remain a decent nation, we'd remain beholden to those laws. Besides which taking in refugees actually boosts our economy.
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Re: Maybe if you stopped thinking of them as "invaders"
Well, you can’t oppose human rights until you’ve been thought to think of them as humans first... the us vs them mentality is proven to work too sadly
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Checked Step one right off the list I see
See, when I said it I was being sarcastic and it still made me queasy to do so, I can only hope that you somehow forgot the /s tag and are not as deplorable as you seem to be.
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Re: Checked Step one right off the list I see
Careful; I think that one might look at the d-word as a compliment.
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Re:
Having read many reports about bad conditions in US prisons and jails housing convicted criminals and those awaiting trial, don't really see why illegal invaders of the US should expect nice accommodations complete with good food and recreational facilities.
Invaders.
Invaders armed with their clothes, and maybe a child or two in tow, ready to reap destruction and mayhem like Genghis Khan and the Mongols. They must be stopped at all costs to prevent rabid republicans from realizing their dream of being the best bean and melon pickers they always wanted to be!
Maybe rubbing all their faces in the problem during an election cycle will prompt action.
I agree! A month or two before the elections, I expect there to be caravans! Caravans! Of Invaders! Rubbing faces and everything! Looking to take good farm work away from good AMERICAN white trash!
And then after the election they'll be gone....
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Seriously...
...letting a mob of undocumented migrants has worked out so well in Europe. Why wouldn't we just open the borders and let them all in? /s
You notice Mexico doesn't want anything to do with them? Gee maybe they know something.
Do I feel bad that some of these immigrants are really victims? Absolutely. Am I pretty sure that more of them are just looking for a free ride? Yeah.
Sadly the loaves and fishes won't work here. We have only so many resources.
We should take care of our own homeless, hungry and sick first.
Billions ( no matter who's doing the survey ) of dollars are spent every year on illegal immigrants. Yet LA wants to make sure all the illegals get free medical care.
LA and San Francisco are covered in human feces left by the thousands of homeless US citizens.
I am sure that some of the commenters are sincere in their desire to help others. I respect that even if I disagree with you. But there are others who are just whhhar grrrable ORANGE MAN bad. To those I say quit it. Just stop. Trump did not personally invite thousands of people to show up for a party at our southern border.
Any US president has the responsibility to protect our country.
Go back and listen to Hillary and Obama, when they had the power, on how we needed to secure our border. They were all talk no action. Now someone is taking action and they get butt hurt.
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Re: Seriously...
"You notice Mexico doesn't want anything to do with them?"
You notice Mex has been turning them away from their southern border for decades? Yeah, fake news huh.
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Re: Re: Seriously...
wait, wut? I guess they just teleported the length of Mexico to get to US. Mexico was fine with them crossing their border as long as they weren't going to stay in Mexico.
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
Why guess when you could read up on the topic, or maybe you are just too busy right now and will certainly get to it later. It is much easier to simply believe the bs.
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Re: Seriously...
"letting a mob of undocumented migrants has worked out so well in Europe'
It has for the most part, despite the braying from right-wing fiction writers that some Americans mistake for news. There are certainly problems, but not significantly enough to worry about. I'm certainly more worried about the families of the African refugess who drown in the body of water I look at every day than I am about the ones who made it here.
"Billions ( no matter who's doing the survey ) of dollars are spent every year on illegal immigrants. Yet LA wants to make sure all the illegals get free medical care."
Because they have some shred of humanity, and won't refuse American citizens free health care because they're afraid some illegal will also get it? Or, because they realise it's a far better use of money than the vast amounts more that you pour into your military in order to create the situations those people are fleeing in the first place?
"They were all talk no action"
You should may look at what they actually did rather than assume they did nothing.
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Re: Re: Seriously...
I am sure London is relieved to know that there are no problems with illegals and it's all just fiction made up by right wing writers. Sorry I do know that England is not really "Europe" but quickest thought in my mind about problems on that side of the Atlantic.
So how did the US Military create situations in Guatemala,Honduras, or any of the other South and Central American countries most of the immigrants are from?
Obama did get 600 million for border security but didn't actually get anything done about border security.
Hillary was more concerned about getting the illegals in the country legal than anything else.
There's more than one reason people should be going thru checkpoints to enter as country. Somewhat more than 100 Congolese were caught trying to get in to the US. As I am sure you know their is another Ebola outbreak going on. Incubation period is roughly 21 days. It is not out of the realm of possibility that an infected person could have traveled to the US border.
Just one person getting thru could infect how many? Before you start in on the unreasonable fears and FUD retort. Do you lock the door to your house when you are gone or when you go to bed? Do you have insurance on your automobile, do you have life insurance? What are the odds that leaving your door unlocked will result in your house being ransacked or someone killing you in your sleep? What are the chances you will have a car accident? How about an untimely death.
It only takes once. Same for an Ebola infected person getting in to the US
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
"So how did the US Military create situations in Guatemala,Honduras, or any of the other South and Central American countries most of the immigrants are from?"
"Obama did get 600 million for border security "
"Hillary was more concerned about getting the illegals in the country legal "
You bring up the fear of random disease crossing our border as some sort of rational for the extreme silliness of today. And in the next sentence warn about labeling your rant as FUD as though it were the same thing as leaving your house unlocked. Wow - I see more fear based advertising every day and it is getting nauseating.
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
The War on drugs
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
Yeah, and of course, our lil Pal Israel driving narrative, and policy, while exploiting both sides of the drug wars:
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-shadowy-role-guatemalas-dirty-war/19286
The 13’s, lol. And mysterious gangs commanded by them, running drugs, brothels, caravans, etc.... I mean, whoever "they " are.
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
London has its problems, but they’re far more related to stories than immigrants.
Plus - Ebola? Despite what Alex Jones tell you, you’re probably more likely to get that from a travelling American than a refugee fleeing from the drug cartels your government supports. The last notable cases I’m aware of, in 2014, involved a man legally visiting family and several US citizen doctors. Trumps magic wall won’t protect you.
Plus if your only go to for people saying that other human beings should be treated humanely is to lie and pretend they’re calling for no security at all, you really need to examine why you lack both empathy and reading skills.
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re: "Ebola? Despite what Alex Jones tell you, you’re probably more likely to get that from a travelling American than a refugee"
I love these fact free hasbara type commenters, at TD .
They are so fact free.
Care to add,a citation PaulT, or is it just another hasbara styled, time sucking comment, as most of what you post is.
(sounds of PaulT clicking away at his keyboard, furtively looking for facts instead of FAP, neither of which he can spell correctly )
PaulT, please stay in Spain. We dont want YOUR TYPE of person here.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
"They are so fact free."
No, it's a fact. The last significant Ebola issue in the US involved a legally visiting tourist, 2 American doctors who dealt with his and a separate case involving an American doctor who contracted it in the field. No illegal immigration was involved at any point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_cases_in_the_United_States
"sounds of PaulT clicking away at his keyboard"
I do love the fact that you try and use this kind of attack, when you typically write more words than I do...
"PaulT, please stay in Spain. We dont want YOUR TYPE of person here."
An educated, affluent person who wants to temporarily visit your country and give you money?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
Anecdote, as evidence, unless, of course, it suits a vapid, disingenuous argument, and made headlines, huh....
Meanwhile, back in the Guatemalan drug wars:
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-shadowy-role-guatemalas-dirty-war/19286
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
I take it by your desperate attempt at deflection that you admit the lies about illegal immigrants spreading Ebola in the US as just lies?
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
Well there's the time that the US carried out a coup against the Guatamalan government, which created a huge mess and triggered a resulting Civil War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27état
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Re: Re: Seriously...
Forget about Europe, the history of the USA is one of immigration, much of it undocumented or poorly documented.
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
Funny how the one time a bunch of immigrants came to the country and legit destroyed the native population and its society in general, he likely celebrates it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
We have been having difficulty with immigrants ever since we came to this country.
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"You notice Mexico doesn't want anything to do with them?"
Yeah, no-one wanted the Jews much either. Remember we turned a few of them away too, at the wrong time. It said less about the character of the Jews and more about the character of those turning them away.
Sadly the loaves and fishes won't work here. We have only so many resources. We should take care of our own homeless, hungry and sick first.
We dump food by the thousands of tons. For every homeless person there are five unoccupied houses. And our medical crises were made the same way the opium crisis in China was made. The US is the richest nation in the world by far. We can afford to feed the world if we weren't spending so much on invisible planes.
As I said above, budgetary concerns were the excuse the Germans used to move from working people to death to just massacring them in factories. We can't afford it is capitalist propaganda just like it was in 1942.
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Re: Seriously...
Go back and listen to Hillary and Obama, when they had the power, on how we needed to secure our border. They were all talk no action. Now someone is taking action and they get butt hurt.
Or we can go back and look at what a republican controlled house, senate, and executive branch did when they had full control for two years - were they waiting for the Mexican check?
Trump should've acted instead of yammering on like the idiot that he is. But that's typical of him - do nothing, create a problem, then bitch about someone else not fixing it.
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Re: Re: Seriously...
The last political party to have “full control” was the Democratic Party from 2009 to 2011. It had a House majority and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
I have my dates mixed up. Pls ignore.
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Re: Re: Re: Seriously...
The Dems only ACTUALLY had a filibuster proof majority for a few months.
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Any possibility of a safety shutdown?
Could the local fire marshals/health inspectors visit and order that the detention centers be shut down due to overcrowding or safety violations? If anything, the resulting court fights over jurisdiction, etc. might shed more light on ICE/DHS prctices than they want. A side benefit might be that we get to watch Trump's head explode in sheer frustration at being outdone.
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... if they were outside of detention facilities, they would no longer be detained, right? I think that is a goal for every detainee, everywhere.
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Re:
Not necessarily.
Prisoners risking their lives to fight fires in California are still considered "detained" even when in the middle of a forest.
While there are such things as "detention facilities," you're "detained" when an officer won't let you drive away from a traffic stop, just as much as you are when you're actually in a jail cell.
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Like NAZI's during WWII
What next - New Auzwitz?
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Why is the First Word no longer visible? Who took it offline?
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speaking ill of the still -living
in re: Israeli dirty wars, TD hasbara OPs, and AC commenters
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-shadowy-role-guatemalas-dirty-war/19286
One Israeli adviser in Guatemala at the time, Lieutenant Colonel Amatzia Shuali, said: “I don’t care what the Gentiles do with the arms. The main thing is that the Jews profit,” as recounted in Dangerous Liaison by Andrew and Leslie Cockburn.
Some years earlier, when Congressional restrictions under the Carter administration limited US military aid to Guatemala due to human rights violations, Israeli economic and military technology leaders saw a golden opportunity to enter the market.
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Re: Why do those meanies call is Raaaacist!?
Well, when your anti-immigrant position is based neither in fact, law, nor logic, that narrows down the inputs that can be put into Occam's razor.
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..and when you factor in how racist, ATAO /CVE /FBI /DHS programs target individuals, you must also remember that counter -intelligence stalkers “cut their victims throats with Occams Razor. ”
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Tech?
What does this have to do with tech?
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