Should Young People Have Their Votes Count More?
from the crazy-ideas-that-might-not-be-crazy? dept
Glyn Moody points us to an article by Paul Sterne, that feels like it might be a Swiftian-style satire, but could just as likely be serious, suggesting that we get rid of "one man, one vote" and switch to age-weighted voting. At first I thought he meant giving older people more weight, but it's actually the opposite:Instead, America should implement weighted voting to make voting more objective and fair, and give the young more power, because the consequences of political decisions will affect them the longest. Weighted voting would restore power to twenty and thirty year olds, where it resided before the advent of medical science. With the aid of computers, it would be easy to give everyone a Voting Score, just like we all have a credit score.He then goes through and suggests a way to calculate this voting score, which would take into effect the level of political understanding, voter participation rates and the amount of time that people would have to "live with the consequences" (i.e., longer if you're younger). He weights the whole thing out and comes out with the following weights:
Also, as he notes, this system means at the age of 80 you lose your right to vote (and, if you are older than that, your vote somehow counts against you?). Pushing me towards believing this is pure satire is the statement, "But then again haven't these folks beaten the odds and outlived all their friends and they shouldn't be voting anyway." However, is there perhaps some value in the larger concept? There definitely are some issues that are generational, in which younger people know that, as they get older, public sentiment is likely to finally shift over (civil rights being a big one), and I wonder if a voting system like this might speed up some changes that could be good. At the same time, it seems like there could be some pretty serious negative consequences for older folks. While they may be out of touch on some issues, does that really mean we should deny them the right to vote? Doesn't seem worth it.
Still, in a world where many people consider one man/one vote sacred, are there better ways to handle things?
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Dumbest concept EVER.
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Not quite complete
Besides, it takes awhile for young people to figure out all of the lies they've been told in their youth.
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Hmmm.
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Not that it would ever in a million years be implemented mind you. You see, those older people in politics can't relate to the younger generation, but if they keep hitting it off with the older people who are known to vote more why should they have to?
They wouldn't be too eager to change things now.
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/sarcasm
Now seriously, Democracy is supposed to be about EQUALITY and FAIRNESS.
Sure, they're just talking about ages discrimination. But what about when they start discriminating by social status, wealth, job, race or religion? Should your vote be worth less because you drive a Ford instead of an Aston Martin?
It's a very slippery slope.
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Think about it. At 20, many people are idealistic and sometimes zealots about things. Even at age 20, some still have a very black and white view of every topic. One view and everyone who supports it: absolutely right; the other view and everyone who supports it: absolutely wrong.
At age 20, do you really understand politics as well as at age 30, or 40? Heck, do you even know geography? Do you have an understanding of business (the good and bad)?
If you're going to weight the vote, weight it based on intelligence.
(The lower your IQ the more your vote should count.)
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It will cost more
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Re: It will cost more
An alternative would be to have the dishonesty of elections go up. Considering that it saves money, which is the most important thing, it therefore is a good idea.
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Younger people have a greater chance of being manipulated to make decisions not in their best interest.
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1.) Older people misunderstand the political situations and ramifications of their decisions, therefore making their decisions(in spite of their experience) very poor.
and
2.) They really don't have to live with the ramifications of their decisions. They'll die before anything happens.
It may be a bit swiftian, but like all good swiftian satire shows the flaws in the current system.
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Story
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So if you have negative points, Does that mean they count against whoever they voted for? couldn't you just reverse your vote to get it back then? :)
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Lean twords the Libs
Guess its a move to lib up the voting base ?
I think we have had enough of Libs for a while ?
I think a libertarian viewpoint is more sane.
Nether the repub-o-crats or the dem-o-pubs are getting it right.
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Re:
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That said, you're putting them in position of great power over the older less important voters.
But the more important lesson here is that all men (and women) were created equal and should be counted equal. This is a slippery slope. Should the rich get more votes because they have a greater financial impact on society? Should college graduates be treated less than people with their Masters?
Should Harvard Grads get to vote 10 times over someone who goes to a small university?
I don't want anyone carving up power based on class. That's feudalism and it's not what this country's about.
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Super. Just shoot me now.
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Here's a novel idea
Sad to say is that older people are more likely to vote because they came from an era that was actually taught to love the ideal of democracy and to be involved in the political process. These people grew through such times as World Wars, Prohibition, Suffrage, Civil Rights etc. They were exposed almost daily to the political process.
Not so much today.
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Srsly?
And 20-30 year olds are keyed in on every political issue? C'mon, this is the most ridiculous article I've ever seen you write, and I've been reading for quite some time.
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Re: Story
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Re:
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Re: Here's a novel idea
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Re: Not quite complete
I don't think experience is relevant in politics, especially if you look at the older Tea Party voters. Stubbornness and ignorance can last a lifetime.
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If I'm still kickin' around at 80, and this insane idea ever becomes reality, then I'll be voting for the one I don't want to win so that candidate gets a negative vote.
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Re: Story
Sterne's article needs more lasers!
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Re:
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US Problem
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Re: Re: Not quite complete
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Re:
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Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
Older people usually have more time to look at the issues and vote as they see fit. When can someone in their 20s, who has college and a part time, take the time to vote or key themselves into the issues?
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Re: Re:
I wish there were a way to delete your comment (say, within 5 seconds) if you reply to the wrong post.
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So let's establish this guy is probably a far-left liberal. I don't know the guy, but following the guys profile revealed a bunch of stories talking advocating repealing the second amendment, a pretty solid sign.
And second part is that liberals have a history of advocating various demographic counting, districting, and voting changes that change the setup in their favor, ofteh in fairly shady ways.
Actions proposed (a lot of these, no coincidently, involve race, most involve them indirectly, please pause, just amoment, before you call me a racist):
*Redistricting to make sure there are formed majority-minority districts (that is now more or less law, and there may have even been good reasons in the past, but currently it forms solid Democratic blocks where there might otherwise be none)
* Basically making it impossible to form any form ID checking law at polling places, on the theory that some disadvantaged people do not have ID (does seriously anybody believe this? I'd love it if it wasn't true, but you can't blow your nose without an ID these days, and there are many ways to get an ID for free). This allows illegal aliens to vote and makes double voting much easier in general, especially in urban areas. I know in my various moves around Boston, I absolutely had the ability to vote multiple times in different neighborhoods, if I wanted.
* various laws supporting unions, and making it much easier for them to engage in political action. To the extent that unions are adopted in this country (thankfully shrinking) it is mostly mandatory to be in those unions, and a large percentage of union dues, often the majority, goes to political contributions, almost exclusively democratic.
*Wanting to "statistically weight" census results to increase the numbers reported for urban areas, on the theory that those people are under-counted. That may or be true, but keep in mind that illegals are explicitly counted (though not asked if they are illegal) and it definitely helps the liberal side,as metropolitan areas vote much more heavily democratic.
This is really just another long line in the same thing. The electorate does not vote sufficiently Mr. Stearns way, and so he would like like to "adjust" things. The old vote consistently and tend to be conservative, so Mr. Stearns would like to see that minimized, and all the young people who voted for Obama maximized.
Further note that this system only makes sense if you think the old tend to vote selfishly. There is some evidence that this is true, making it near impossible to touch Medicare or social security without hysterics, but the old have also shown tendencies to think about the future and future generations much more than the young might.
I Paul Stearns were writing satire, but unfortunately, I think he's serious.
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Other voting systems
As for other suggestions for alternative votes: how about a system of changeable votes? What if, say, you voted for Obama, and then decided, two years into his term, that you don't like what he's doing and then could change your vote to another candidate. If Obama lost the plurality to another candidate, say McCain, he'd be replaced by that other candidate? Anyone think that would work well? It would make politicians much more responsive to the will of the people, but it would cause more political dislocation.
How about a system of divisible votes? What if, say, everyone had ten votes and could allocate them however they wish? For example, you could give 6 votes to Obama, 3 to McCain and then 1 to Bob Barr, or something. How would that work?
Then there's the AV system that was proposed in Britain (also called Instant Run-Off) is that a good idea?
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Re: Re: Not quite complete
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Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
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Hmm
Would the weightings be adjusted over time, so if this model encouraged (say) twice as many 30-somethings to vote, would their vote count for less next time? (Or even this time?)
How granular should this be? If I were a particularly diligent student of politics (and took some sort of test?) - or indeed just more intelligent / better educated than most people - would I get extra points?
Should my vote, as a man, count for less than a woman of my age because I am likely to live less long? If I were a smoker, should my vote count for even less?
It's good to think about, but ultimately I believe it would be skewed to benefit the elite most (because someone has to set the rules) - the same problem with the otherwise worthy 'benign dictator' system of government.
Obligatory Churchill quote.
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Moreover, while it is true that giving the younger generation more power would help hasten certain good social reform, it is also likely to bring in many short sighted policies that would have been blocked wtih greater wisedom.
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Log-rolling instead
You would have a computerized systems that managed it all in a buy/sell order fashion much like stock trades are done, so identities are still anonymous.
But the issue with the current system is my neighbor and each have a vote. We would vote different ways, but I REALLY care about this particular topic while he only has a leaning towards his. On a different issue however, he cares vehemently and I only care minorly.
So a real example is I could trade my vote on certain tax referendums or school bonds I didn't care about in exchange for someone's vote on the Senator which I do care about. So lets say I could trade all my votes on everything for 3 extra votes on president maybe. This would let people convey the importance of the belief not just simple majorities.
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age
Politicians have no technical understanding and A LOT has changed in the last 10-20 years. They are unable to keep up with the change.
I think we need both wisdom and knowledge. We have a bunch of people passing laws who have little knowledge and even in their infinite wisdom, they make HORRIBLE choices.
Knowledge and Wisdom are equally important.
In my above babbling, I assume older people tend to be more "wise" and that's what I see quite often.
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Re:
What would you do if the country raised the voting age to 21? There aren't enough people under the age to block it by themselves. Conceivably, they could keep doing it. That hardly seems just, since they don't lose that ability they had when they were young.
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WTF! Somebody Drinking the Eugenics Kool Aid Again?
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Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
1. Traveling: Absentee ballot
2. Working: Most voting sites are open for 12 or more hours
3. No time to look at the issues: Stop playing video games and browsing Facespace
4. In college and working part time: See #3
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Re: Re: Re:
Besides, I would sometimes like to add clarifications latter, or delete something I wrote because I misread the previous poster, etc.... All of this adds to the conversation, so I am not sure why we cannot edit our own posts after submission (speaking from a conversational not technical perspective....)
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Re: Hmmm.
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Re:
Do you have any empirical evidence?
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Consider the source
Based on how that company has been doing lately, it explains everything.
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Re: Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
Oh you mean like we have now? Republicrats, is what we have. Only the illusion of different parties, both bought and paid for by corporations, and special interest groups. Both parties only worship the almighty dollar. Politicians should have to take a vow of poverty while in office.
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Re:
That's true of both our political parties.
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Re: Other voting systems
It seems to me that this way, we would have less choices that amount to "the guy that sucks or the guy that sucks worse" and more choices like "hey, this guy's okay, and these next two might not be so bad, but I really loathe this guy".
I realize it's a bit radical, but I would be in favor of immediately imposing term limits on every member of the legislative and executive branches, instituting AV, and then having a massive re-election for anyone who's gone over their limit at the end of their current term.
Of course, this will never happen, because all of the politicians are way too fat and happy on their $200,000+ yearly salaries + kickbacks to ever vote for something that would be against their best interest. Power corrupts, and then corruption feeds more corruption, and then you get the current state of US politics.
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Re:
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Carousel...
Oops...I am over 35 now. Nevermind. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Seriously, if only 100 people voted in a National Election due to apathy, would who wins matter?
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alternative weightings
While I can see the merit in the idea of determining how long you'll be affected by the government I don't think it really has much of an effect. After all, government policies change fairly frequently. A decision made today is likely to be reversed or amended within the next 10 years say. As such everyone who is likely to survive for most of those 10 years should have an equal say. You'd therefore only really start to drop off the weighting over age 70 say which would probably cost more (in money and hassle) than it would stand to improve the system.
I don't think the voter involvement should be in there. It seems to be a weighting to give each age bracket the same weight in the total result. If you want to do this - and I don't see why you would - why not have it like the electoral college where you see who each age bracket votes for and then see who won the most age brackets (or whatever other buckets you want to use). That would cope with changes in voter turnout due to different weights.
While I think adjusting for political understanding as a concept is a good idea, to make sure decisions are made by those who understand what they're voting on*, I think trending by age masks a whole load of individual differences. I think this is too broad an adjustment to make to someone's vote. A better determinant might be level of education, but that's not really a good indicator of political understanding either.
One adjustment I do think could be good would be tax weighted. Since the government is there to decide how to spend the tax payers' money, why not weight votes by how much you contribute to the tax pot. To avoid disenfranchising people the weighting should be flattened so paying twice as much tax gives you a weight less than twice as much and there should be a minimum weighting so that those who pay no tax (eg low income / on benefits) would still get a vote.
This would mean those who have to fund the government get the greatest say in how their money is spent which seems fair to me. It could also be self correcting, as parties who like to lower taxes will end up giving their high-wealth and thus high-tax supporters proportionally less power in the vote.
*some sort of test of understanding would be better applied to our legislators than our voters I think!
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Bad Logic
This is actually an argument against giving younger people more weight than older people in elections. When average life expectancy was shorter, the OLDEST SEGMENT of the population was still better represented in elections.
It follows that the oldest segment should still be in that position.
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Re: Not quite complete
I think the age at which people get the most votes in this model is a bit early, the 40-year-olds should get the most votes in my mind, but after 40 the votes should go down again.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
The next step is to allow Bob to set a "you may eat your words" flag (default off) that would allow Alice to edit her post even after his reply is up. If she does, maybe his reply becomes invisible to everyone but him, until he reinstates it.
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Re: Re:
I think I will send a note off to my congressman today asking his thoughts on raising the voting age.
Hmm...I think by judging how many "young" people text while driving raising the drinking age is also a good idea as well...
Thanks!
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How many roads?
With knowledge doesn't necessarily come wisdom and with wisdom doesn't necessarily come with knowledge.
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Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
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My Dear Watson
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
(After all, you may edit your post to have infringing content, making a felon out of anyone who linked to what it previously had said.)
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Re: Re: Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
Classic example: Entitlement programs. Almost everyone understands that dealing with it in some way is important, no one has touched it for decades because it's the "third-rail". If the other party touches it, it's very easy to demagogue it as "killing old people's healthcare" (or whatever). Doesn't matter if the accuser actually agrees with the person who suggested changes, it's just an easy attack ad.
Also: regulatory capture of all kinds, excessive bureaus deptarments, laws to "protect the children" (just good grand-standing opps, really, but still result in real laws), and public unions.
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Re: Re:
OTOH, what this does is penalize responsible people.
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Re: Re:
I don't think people are discriminating in their comments it is just a fact that when you are young you lack experience, and generally speaking, experience is a key component of wisdom.
Some of the students I am currently going to school with that are 20-30 strike me as future leaders. The rest spend class time playing farmville and then wonder why they are barely passing.
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Re: WTF! Somebody Drinking the Eugenics Kool Aid Again?
Did you even read the post?
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Re: Re:
Better to weight voting to something else.
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Re: Re:
Only subjective. I've seen people get significantly wiser during their twenties. :-)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
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Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
I'm 50+, taking care of the last 2 kids still at home, providing emotional support and guidance for the ones age 20-30, work 45-55 hours a week, am now working on an advanced degree, and I even found the time to run for office in 2008. If you can't find time to learn about the issues and candidates it's because you are either:
1: Lazy
2: Apathetic
Sorry Jay, usually your posts are thoughtful but unless my headache is making me miss the sarc mark people in their 20's have the time, they just lack something else.
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Re:
As I suggested, if you weight voting to anything, it should be to "intelligence". Whatever that is, it is something not necessarily tied to age.
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Re: Re: Re:
What are scores of old people doing when they drive through a farmers market killing people? Telegraphing and driving?
Safe driving operates on a very obvious statistical curve with the very elderly being just as dangerous as the very young.
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age vs life expectancy
I can't see it happen in any civilized country in this day and age. But then... we do have politicians.
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I love this line. So "someone" would need to come up with a test or evaluation method that would check political understanding as part of the Census (per the article.) Does this mean the incumbents would vote on defining "political understanding" prior to the Census so that they ensure the right set of voters?
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Re: It will cost more
Oh, so instead of the 70 year-old grandma spending 3 minutes trying to find my name in the (alphabetized) polling book but can't squint enough to read my driver's license and the book despite them being an inch from her face, there'd be a college kid that remembers that R comes before S?
And we'll have a college kid who averages more time typing on her phone in a day than the old lady trying to help by looking my name up on this contraption with the glowy letters on a TV screen with an attached typewriter thingy?
And who gets to fix the touch screen voting machine when it malfunctions, Ms. I-built-the-GPS-nav-system-of-the-DARPA-grand-challenge-winning-automated-car or Mrs. I-married-Bob-who-retired-from-IBM-before-Steve-Jobs-shaved-his-beard-but-passed-a-few-years-ago?
(No, I really don't feel this way about older people, but as everyone else is calling younger voters stupid and inexperienced, I felt the need to balance it out with some anti-fogey-ism.)
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congratulations
Aside from that minor glitch, it makes no sense. The idea that older people's knowledge, experience, and emotional maturity should count less than people that probably haven't had children yet, can't appreciate why they need Medicare, don't know the names of their local representatives, are still taking financial support from their parents, have never had a mortgage...is just ridiculous.
The logic that old people don't have to live with the consequences of policy decisions as long as young people isn't really true. Some consequences only happen when you're old, like cutting Medicare benefits. Young people might feel cut off from the consequences if they won't kick in for 30 yrs, whereas older people would be more focused on it now.
Anyway, what a waste of time even talking about this. Worst idea I've seen in a long time. Wreaks of the arrogance of youth.
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Re: Re: Re:
I have some serious doubts about this sentiment. Yes the young lack experience but that doesn't mean the elderly are wise. Actually, this very discussion assists in disproving this point.
Assuming the following:
The logical conclusion would be that the current incarnation of our government is always created by our wisest and eldest ... and yet everyone is unhappy with it.
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Experience? YOU CALL THIS EXPERIENCE?!
If experience is what gets you a collapsing dollar, industry regulating themselves, and an our of control military-industrial complex...
If experience is what has legislated this country into incarcerating more of its citizens than any other place on Earth...
If experience means War is Peace, institutes the Ministry of Truth, and destroys one's respect for the Constitution...
Then I'll be sure to drive into a bridge abutment before I hit 30.
Arrogance of YOUTH?!
TRY ARROGANCE OF EXPERIENCE!
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Re:
I bet older people would vote for a law that forced/allowed metered billing. After all, they only use those tubes for e-mail and the nice man at the cable company said they would save 25 dollars a month.
Of course, they don't understand or appreciate the consequences and by the time it comes back to haunt the rest of us they will likely be dead.
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Re: Not quite complete
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Re: Lean twords the Libs
People have started using it as if it were an insult when it really doesn't say anything. What is a liberal? A social liberal? A fiscal liberal?
Here is the definition of liberal: Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
Anyone who isn't open to new behavior or opinions and anyone who believes in preserving traditional values at all costs isn't called a conservative ... they're called a stubborn idiot.
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Re:
Lady Gaga is significantly more qualified.
Also, wans't fu*king Donald Trump the front runner for older republicans and tea party folks?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
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Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
I see the three replies above me are talking about absentee ballots and "making" the time, but there is no denying that old people vote more because they have more time and fewer concerns; not because they "camed from a generation what was raised up right."
Also, maybe some of the people replying need to lookup absentee ballots. Only 28 (maybe 30, depending upon how you read the law) states even allow an absentee ballot with "no excuse."
There was a lot attitude the three responses about educating yourself if your going to vote, too bad those same people don't educate themselves before commenting.
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Re:
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You go old people, lay the wisdom on us
The youth are obviously so terribly confused.
Or... perhaps they're just completely disenfranchised by the incompetence and corruption so entrenched in a system that completely disdains them, their ideas, and their opinions.
Go ahead old folks - keep legislating your bigotry, your unwinnable wars, and your trickle-down economics.
We root for the day that you die.
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Re: Experience? YOU CALL THIS EXPERIENCE?!
By the way, not following you on how life experience causes wars, deregulation, incarceration, and Orwellian government. I could blame it on the apathy young voters exhibit by not showing up at the polls.
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Re:
That about sums up not only your post, but most political discourse in this country. When will people learn to express their views in terms of what they think is right and what they think should be done rather than in terms of what they disagree with?
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I like the system we have ...
I think the wealthy must be smarter, don't you think?
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1 vote for every 1,000 dollars
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Re: congratulations
Were you trying to balance it with a post which reeks of the arrogance of the old.
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Re: Re: Experience? YOU CALL THIS EXPERIENCE?!
First, nothing anonymous coward said "proves your point."
The current system was voted on by the older wiser people, they represent the majority of the vote, therefore they are responsible for our current government. Your last statement is the best, you want to blame young people for the government created by old people because young people don't vote. It is basically the polar opposite of everything else you've said.
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Re: Re:
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Re: 1 vote for every 1,000 dollars
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Re: Re: Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
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Re:
Also, common: "wisdom"? lol. You get to pick between a giant douche and a turd sandwhich and every year everyone is either like "man, this guy was a giant douche, I'm votin for the other party next time!" or "I'm votin X. I always vote X and aint nothin gunna stop me!"
Which one is the wiser one?
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Re: 1 vote for every 1,000 dollars
LOL, that solves the problem of corporations having a voice in government.
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Re: Re: Not quite complete
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Re: alternative weightings
Overall I like it, but I identified some problems too:
-Income from such taxes would swing a lot with economy changes
-It would widely change from year to year based on what elections do you have in it
-It creates a strong incentive to buy others' votes
-Anonymity might be hard, but seems solvable
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*Screed of Shit
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And 41 year-olds get the greatest weight in 2012.
And so on... :)
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How about this?
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Re: Re: congratulations
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Re:
If we followed the Sterne's Sytem of election, folks of a certain age would stop voting for candidates, and start voting against candidates to leverage their negative scores.
The thought made me chuckle.
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Are you kidding me?
Suggesting that this might "speed up some changes that could be good." For who, exactly? The weighted majority? The point of one-man, one-vote is create a equality across the board, to ensure that every person and every viewpoint is represented. Weighting one segment of the population not only breaks that, but it exaggerates the biggest danger of pure democracy: abuse of the minority by the majority. That very danger is the reason we have a republic.
In addition to that, what have we come to as a society when we treat the viewpoints of our elders as disposable? Once, we treated the wisdom of elders with respect. Are some of the elderly "out of touch" on some issues and stubborn in their ways? Sure, but they act as a counter-balance to the whims of the young, which are easily shaped and swayed by propaganda, and could lead to disastrous consequences if left unchecked. Often, that stubbornness is not so much a result of being out of touch, but with having lived through the consequences of past government actions.
I say all this as a 31-year-old man, so don't assume I am reacting to attack on my "power." Using this idea, my age group would be the most powerful, by far, and that is a terrifying notion.
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Re: My Dear Watson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchise_(short_story)
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Re: Re: Hmmm.
Huh? Where do you think the formula would come from, exactly? Tree rings? If there is a formula to weight votes, it will be crafted by people in power. That formula, transparent or not, would be adjusted over time, to "fix" it and to make it more "fair." Ultimately, those with the deepest pockets would buy the formula.
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Re: Are you kidding me?
Let me quote Leo Tolstoy:
When among one hundred men, one rules over ninety-nine, it is unjust, it is a despotism; when ten rule over ninety, it is equally unjust, it is an oligarchy; but when fifty-one rule over forty-nine (and this is only theoretical, for in reality it is always ten or eleven of these fifty-one), it is entirely just, it is freedom!
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All it would take is one savoy political party to figure out which head men ages 18-25 would vote with.
They just put up a beautifully well endowed woman as the candidate and have wet T-shirt contests and belly shots at every campaign whistle stop.
And then...ta-da....Madam President!
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Re: Re: Re:
DH counts as 100 votes
TAM counts as -5
I count as several thousand.
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
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Re: Re: It will cost more
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How about we turn it around and say No representation without taxation? The amount your vote counts directly correlates to large your effective tax rate is.
You're a super rich guy that takes enough deductions to only pay 0.05%? Good luck electing your guy
You're a regular joe that doesn't get many deductions beyond mortgage interest and maybe a kid or two and have an effective tax rate of 17-25%? You get a vote
You're a drain on society and getting money back when you didn't even earn any money this year? No vote for you.
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Weight it based on intelligence
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Re:
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Oh, you smoke? You're obese? You have some genetic disease that decreases life-expectancy?
Too bad - even though you're 30 your vote counts as much as a 60 year old.
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Re: Weight it based on intelligence
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Re: Re: Re: It will cost more
You know what? Fuck that. Here's what I really think.
Why is this country in trouble? Why are we 14 trillion in debt? Why is our infrastructure crumbling? Why are our social programs at risk of going bankrupt? Why are the politicians all bought by big business and special interests?
Hate to break it to you, but it's the old people's fault. If you're over 50, you're to blame. I don't think you were stupid, just naive.
You let the politicians convince you they could spend more money and reduce taxes at the same time. You didn't vote them out of office.
You let the corporations take over without being held accountable. Your affinity to power and trusting those in it let this happen.
You wanted the big house in the suburbs and a big car to drive, just like the Cleavers. So you lived the American dream on credit and stuck your kids with the bill. You let the oil companies drill the wells and you happily burned the oil. You bought off half the third world countries and let Russia buy the rest so you could fight wars without getting your hands bloody, and now they're coming for your kids' blood. You let the media scare you into consumerism, and now we can't turn on the news and see truth.
You made us clean up our rooms - it must have been training for having to clean up the mess you've made of the world.
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Re: Re: Re: congratulations
The only thing I learned from your post is that you didn't read the original argument at all.
Also, not liking an idea doesn't make it unconstitutional. While you must be allowed to vote if you are 18 years of age or older, the constitution doesn't require that your vote be equal to the vote of another person. Also, the 18 an older amendment is just that, an amendment; it could always be changed again.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
As of Sept 2007 (according to here) there are only 16 states that don't no-excuse early voting available. They are:
Minnesota
Michigan
Iowa
Mississippi
Alabama
South Carolina
Kentucky
Virgina
Pennsylvania
Delaware
New York
Connecticut
Rhode Island
Massachussettes
New Hampshire
Of those 16, Pennsylvania is the only one that doesn't allow simply being absent from your voting precinct as an allowable excuse. In short, the vast majority of people have absentee voting as an option. There is a very small group of people (young, old and middle-aged, it's not like the absentee excuses only apply to the young) that cannot vote due to travel. I'd venture to say that the small amount of people who can't vote due to travel are far outweighed by the number of people who don't vote simply because they don't think it's important.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: congratulations
Why is that? Because there is no way to agree on any weighting formula that wouldn't be seen as unfair to somebody.
I agree, liking an idea doesn't make it unconstitutional. But independent of the fact that I don't like the idea, it's unconstitutional.
Of course you are free to start a movement to get the majority of the country to petition the states and representatives to repeal the voting rights act, women's suffrage, etc etc and apply your arbitrary formula. Let me know how that works out for you. :-)
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vote
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Re: Re:
I'd be open if you could point out any counter-examples. Republicans have tried to neuter public unions in various ways, but I'd say that's more a "reset to neutral", and it's not really an "accounting trick".
Primary voting states? 'Course, without that, small states would just be washed out, and it's really the individual small states pushing for that anyway, both parties, even though it does work out in some of the race based rural vs urban stuff.
Like I said, just give me some examples. Major ones, not a tiny little thing in north west Oklahoma or something.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
BTW, I'm a republican. (Or a libertarian/tea partier)
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That's why suicide should be legalized, even encouraged. Once you become unproductive, why should you go on?
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Age weighted voting
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Re: Re: Re: Hmmm.
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The term for that is discrimination.
Where you votes are based on your income :)
It would also be unconstitutional. the "all men are created equal".
(except black people), who by your constitution are only half 'equal'.
If you want to win votes from the community you state what you will provide that community should you be elected, therefore it is clear that age has and should never have anything to do with it.
It's discrimination, and at least here in Australia that is illegal. (as im sure it is in the US as well).
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Re: Re: alternative weightings
The first two points could be dealt with by using a longer control period. For example considering the total amount of tax paid over the last four or five years (maybe rating up for people who have just become old enough to start paying tax).
Agree that since your vote somehow needs to be linked to your individual weighting factor there would be issues with protecting anonymity. Perhaps tax-paid-bands would give some protection, but if you know someone's age, rough level of wealth and district that probably narrows down which vote is theirs fairly well. I'm sure electronic voting machine manufacturers will rise to the challenge and come up with something secure :)
Not sure I see why it creates more of an incentive to buy votes than the current system?
I guess it means if you do want to buy votes then there are certain people with high weightings who you would target - but they are likely to charge a lot for it, since they're by definition rich and probably wouldn't want to get caught selling votes for pennies. With diminishing weights you might be better paying small amounts to a lot of lower tax payers for their votes
Of course with any mass vote buying you'd probably have to do it indirectly as with the current system, whereby votes are "bought" by promising services etc to sections of the electorate.
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Re:
Are you going to vote for the Conservatives? Y/N
Y = pass, you can vote. In fact you just did.
N = fail, you can't be trusted to vote correctly.
Although I guess other people would want to change the question slightly ...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
2) If people are traveling such as a musician from place to place, do you really believe they're making a difference in the local economies? Enough to register to vote and go do so?
Relevance to local cause is what we need here.
3) It's like you blame people for out of state colleges, internships in other countries or states, or not following the most charming politician who speaks nice on TV...
4) see #3
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It will cost more
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
It may just be, most people are busy with their own lives, not paying attention to the politician at all. Hell, if you're a Democrat in a Republican state, there's almost no reason to vote because you have no chance.
The variables should be found and weighed against each other in importance. I'm to think that if more people are given options, they'll vote closer to their beliefs. Right now, the system is set up so that only two choices are represented and both could be the worst of what a party has to offer.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
So I can add you to the list? Re-read that Wikipedia article because the 16 number you are quoting is related to EARLY voting not absentee voting.
The rest of what you wrote is irrelevant because I never said anything about travel. A lot of younger people have jobs that make it very difficult to get to the polling place and most states that require an excuse don't accept "working" you actually have to be out of the precinct.
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If anything, your response simply proves how much you are a part of the problem. You view politics as a team sport and anyone who isn't cheering for your team while jeering the other is an "enemy". Here we are, having a somewhat joking conversation about counting votes and you can't resist an opportunity to talk about how great your team is.
Also, nothing in my post indicated if I lean more liberal or conservative, my entire point was that people need to stop talking about politics in terms of us vs. them. Something you are apparently clinically incapable of.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: congratulations
Second, way to quote a bunch of amendments and case law that say nothing about voter equality. I think it is hilarious that you immediately assume that I am arguing against "one person, one vote". I didn't. I simply pointed out that people are constantly screaming "that's not constitution like" when they don't agree with something. The constitution states only that government representative will be elected "by the People." It is no more specific than that. You can talk all day about how the supreme court has interpreted those words but you cannot claim that the constitution guarantees "one person, one vote."
Amazingly, I actually believe in one person, one vote. However, unlike you, I believe it out of personal convictions ... not through a false appeal to authority.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
There are 19 states that don't have laws specifically relating to time off for work on election day. They are:
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Idaho
Indiana
Lousiana
Maine
Michigan
Mississippi
Montan a
New Hampsire
New Jersey
North Carolina
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Vermont
Virgina
Florida has many jurisdictions that do have laws. Louisiana and Mississippi don't have specific laws regarding time off, but other laws have been interpreted to mean the same thing. That reduces the states to only 16. But I'll add Massachusetts, because the time-off laws only apply to employees in manufacturing, mechanical, or mercantile establishments.
Of those 20 states (we'll include Mass), 10 require an excuse for absentee/early voting. They are:
Connecticut
Delaware
Massachusetts
Michigan
Mississippi
New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Virgina
Of those 10 states, six allow work during polling hours as an excuse for absentee/early voting. The remaining 4 are:
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Michigan
Rhode Island
Looking into those 4 states more closely:
Connecticut allows being out of town during polling hours as an excuse. So if work is out of town, you're good to go. Also, their polling places are open for 14 hours.
Massachusetts has the laws requiring time off for employees in certain businesses. Polls are open for at least 13 hours, and if you are in line before closing, you are entitled to vote.
Michigan polls are open for 13 hours.
Rhode Island polls are open for at least 12 hours, some are open 13 hours, many are open for 14 hours.
Keep in mind also, that just because the state doesn't require time off, doesn't mean that employers can't/won't/don't give time off.
Are you seriously going to say that the number of people that live in those 4 states that have jobs that require them to be away from their polling place for more than 12 hours or more whose employer doesn't give them time off to vote is a large number? Are you also willing to say that the majority of those people in that already small group are young?
Let's face it; young people don't vote for all sorts of reasons. Working is no more an excuse for them as it is for any one else. I'm all for looking at ways to encourage more people to vote, and I'd love it if all states required time off for voting. As it stands however, there is a very small number of people that can't vote due to work.
I'm not saying old people vote more because they were raised up right. And I'm certainly not saying that all young people and only young people are apathetic or idiots. All I'm saying is that time isn't an issue. For the most part, young people that don't vote do so because they don't think it's important or don't care. But that's probably true of young people even back in the 1788-89 election as well. As they get older, more of them realize how important it is to vote and so they do. That's why you get more older people voting than younger. And certainly not because young people travel or because a majority of young people are working 14 hour shifts at McDonalds in Rhode Island.
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Re: Re: WTF! Somebody Drinking the Eugenics Kool Aid Again?
Oops... {long pause} ... {facepalm} damn, that was not very polite of me to do that - sorry about that Mike.
Paraphrasing Denis Lemieux from Slap Shot - "I do that, I go to the box, you know. Two minutes, by myself, you know and I feel shame, you know. And then I get free."
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
Early voting isn't the same as absentee voting. In most states you have to go to the election board office in your county and they are open banking hours.
I never said that the ONLY reason young people don't vote is because of work or travel, but they are two of many reasons. I was actually prevented from voting in two elections once while I was in college as I had class all day and work in the evening and another time because I had two jobs. While NY has laws requiring time off from work, those laws don't cover people with multiple jobs or persons who both work and go to school. Additionally, most polling places in my area have very long lines if you try to go early in the morning (primarily old people.)
I'm glad you had a chance to brush up on absentee and early voting but disappointed that you have still come to the conclusion that time is NEVER a factor in young voter turnout. I'm assuming it has been a long time since you were young.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
2. AFAIK, everyone in the US only gets to vote once in each election (except maybe Chicago) and they are supposed to vote in the place where they have their permanent residence. Musicians, especially the rich ones, may have more than one residence, but they are only supposed to vote at one of them. Elections don't pop up out of the blue. They are announced well ahead of time so that everyone who wants to vote via the absentee system should be able to do so.
3. I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm attempting to explain to you that I don't believe the reasons you gave for not being able to vote are valid.
4. Systems of government that involve citizen participation, call it a democracy, republic, or commune, rely on the citizens making informed decisions. Citizens have an obligation to inform themselves. Otherwise it would be less expensive and a lot less painful to just pull a name out of a hat. We wouldn't be subjected to daily political propaganda and the lobbyists wouldn't know who to pay off.
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Re: Re: Re: Hmmm.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Here's a novel idea
You said:Now let me quote myself.Sure, I'll admit, I also said:I thought I was being clear that I was NOT saying it's never an issue for any one. I guess it wasn't, and for that I apologize. I was saying that it's not a major issue in the grand scheme of problems with elections for younger people any more than it is for older people.Thank you for pointing out how little you actually read of my post. So I'll quote the relevant bit of my post here for you to probably ignore again:New York City's In-Person Absentee Voting (their words) can be done at the Board of Elections' Borough Offices from 9-5 (9pm on election day) Mon-Fri and on the weekend before the election. New York City also allows you to mail in your absentee ballot. New York (the state) doesn't do in-person absentee voting, only by mail. On election day, polling hours in New York (the state) are 15 hours. It's too bad that you were one of the few that time really was an issue for. And I do mean that.
In the spirit of education, here [Warning: PDF] is some data on who holds multiple jobs. Turns out, older people are just as likely to hold multiple jobs as younger people. Since this discussion is ultimately stemming from a claim that young people have less time than older people, it seems pretty relevant to point out that work (according to the data) is not any more of a time drainer for the young than it is for the old (if indeed time is really the biggest issue in either case).Correct, what you did say was:You have failed to demonstrate that. I've shown that work is not likely to be the reason why more old people vote than young since only 3 states (4 if you include Massachusetts) don't have laws requiring time off and don't allow work as an excuse for absentee/early voting and I've shown that younger people are just as likely to have multiple jobs as older people, so work is not the reason why older people vote more than younger people. Every state allows for absentee/early voting for travel outside of the jurisdiction, so travel isn't going to be an issue either.
Where is your data that shows that "time and fewer concerns" are really the reasons that older people vote more than younger? If you have it, please elucidate me. I'd love to see it. I just can't find it. There is this article [Warning: PDF], but it mostly says that older people vote more because of social norms and because of how long they've been where they live. There is little talk of free time being an issue.While I think I'm old some days, old people would still consider me a young whipper snapper, especially as I skateboard by them.
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Voting scores...
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Re: Re: Are you kidding me?
Of course, the US has proved that, given time, even a constitution that expressly protects those liberties can be overridden by the executive through fear-mongering.
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re: alternative weightings
No matter the system, there is always the risk of disenfrancising someone. Much better to encourage more people to use their existing votes!
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Re: Re: Re: Not quite complete
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Insipid
This is the exact same sort of thing that used to be used to support having to be a land owner to vote, or only men. This has to be one of the five or six stupidest things I have ever heard as a suggestion on how to make things somehow better or more equitable.
I have an idea. You only get to vote if you serve or have served in the military. Such service proves that you actually have to stones to do something about it if someone tells you your vote is about to count for less.
Take that little "improvement" and choke on it for a while. (I first read that idea in a Heinlein book, by the way, just to be fair about proper attributions.)
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But you don't want to have to in anyway justify that as the case. You want to paint me as mindlessly jeering without having to back up your own blather.
Well...that's not OK, you don't get to do that.
You fail, shut it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: congratulations
Second, it's not satire. Same dude wrote serious articles wanting to repeal the Second Ammendment.
Third, it really isn't constitutional. Yes, that does matter. Everyone else here understands why.
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What he was doing IS OK. What you are doing is not.
YOU fail, shut it.
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Re: Re:
Do you have any empirical evidence?
Common sense.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Do you have any empirical evidence?
Common sense.
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As for why we, as a country, are unhappy with our system, it's because we don't get what we vote for. We have lobbyist and the courts running our country.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It will cost more
"You let the politicians convince you they could spend more money and reduce taxes at the same time. You didn't vote them out of office."
Two different groups of people. One group says we need all these social programs and the other group says we already over spend and are not raising taxes. Can we agree there is waste in government? If they can't get rid of the waste then I am not giving them any more money. It was there choice to go into debt rather than cut spending. And I do vote them out when ever I can, but the YOUNG keep voting them in because we have to thin of the children.
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Pure Idiocy!
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Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Dumbest concept EVER.
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Re:
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Re: Should Young People Have Their Votes Count More?
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