Senators Unconcerned About Massive Unintended Consequences Of Criminalizing People For Embedding YouTube Videos

from the shame-on-them dept

Fri, Jun 17th 2011 8:28am — Mike Masnick

This is really no surprise, but the same Senate Judiciary Committee that unanimously approved the PROTECT IP Act, despite worries from internet experts and major media about how it would break the internet, has now also unanimously approved the anti-internet streaming bill that makes it a felony to stream certain videos online -- potentially putting people in jail for embedding YouTube videos or just putting up YouTube lip synching videos.

What's really troubling here is that the media and plenty of concerned citizens have directly raised the issues about the unintended consequences of this law. And while Senators Amy Klobuchar, John Cornyn and Christopher Coons continue to insist that (of course) the law is not intended to be used against such people, they have made no move to fix the bill. Even supporters of this bill, who insisted that we were wrong about what the bill allowed, eventually conceded that our argument was accurate and that this bill could be used to put people in jail for embedding a YouTube video or doing a lip synch video.

And that's a huge, huge problem. Of course, no one thinks the bill is for that purpose directly or that it's going to be widely used for such purposes. However, the bill, as written, clearly allows law enforcement to charge people with a felony for that, assuming it meets a few other conditions. But those conditions are pretty minimal (ads on your page? you're in trouble...). The risk here of abuse is a serious risk, and it's incredibly troubling that Klobuchar, Cornyn and Coons failed to change or adapt the bill, and worse that the rest of the Senate Judiciary Committee allowed the bill to move forward in such a broken state. They were clearly made aware of problems with the bill, but directly chose not to make any changes. How do you explain that other than incompetence or corruption?

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Filed Under: amy klobuchar, christopher coons, copyright, felony, john cornyn, performance, streaming

210 Comments

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weneedhelp (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:36am

Thats it.
I am not going to read TD anymore on Fridays.
"How do you explain that other than incompetence or corruption?"

A lot from column A, and A lot from column B.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:37am

Not intended, unless...
Senators Amy Klobuchar, John Cornyn and Christopher Coons continue to insist that (of course) the law is not intended to be used against such people...

Unless, of course, such people happen to annoy the government or one of its corporate partners.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:38am

"Senators Unconcerned About Massive Unintended Consequences Of Criminalizing People For Embedding YouTube Videos"

Unintended? That's a good one! You should do stand-up comedy!
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:40am

Re: Not intended, unless...
Never give anyone any more power than it is needed to get the job done. It WILL be abused. And it only takes ONE idiot to start abusing it a little for a whole crowd of idiots to immediately decide to do the same.
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McBeese, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:43am

Massive amounts of Both
I think this bill is thriving on massive amounts of corruption and incompetence.

There are way too many open-ended questions that need to be clarified before this steaming turd can be allowed to pass.

I guess if I put the videos I've purchased in my Cloud locker, The locker services (Amazon, Google, iCloud) can't let me stream it to my device because that could be construed as a felony unless they have paid for the rights to let me stream my content to my devices over their networks. Instead I have to download it and play it on the same device because that isn't a felony.

Bottom line: Technical incompetents should NOT be allowed to judge technical issues. Big companies use CTOs and their organizations to drive technical decisions. Where the hell is our government's CTO?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:45am

In future, "Use the internet = committed an offence". Best stear clear of the tubes. ;D
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A Dan (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:45am

Re: Thats it.
I would have added "Laziness"; they didn't write the bill, why would they want to bother editing it? It's much easier to just approve the version the lobbyists wrote for them.
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Headbhang, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:46am

Disgusting
I hope their decision comes back to bite their own asses in full karmic force.

Legislators ought to be required to pass basic competency examinations about technological topics before being allowed to pass laws that concern them, but of course, that would leave barely no-one to do so. Bunch of ignorant arse-licking snakes, they all are.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:46am

For a less alarmist view of things, I recommend reading: http://www.copyhype.com/2011/06/fears-of-felony-streaming-bill-overblown/
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:49am

"Even supporters of this bill, who insisted that we were wrong about what the bill allowed, eventually conceded that our argument was accurate and that this bill could be used to put people in jail for embedding a YouTube video or doing a lip synch video. "

That's it? A single comment from an anonymous commenter is all you have to bolster your contention that supporters of the bill agree with your argument? At a minimum you should amend that sentence to begin "Even a single, anonymous commenter posting on Techdirt...."
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DannyB (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:50am

Re: Not intended, unless...
Don't be so pessimistic. The government is here to protect you. Remember the PATRIOT act? That even has the word "patriot" in it, so it can't be bad. That law was also not intended to be used against people who aren't terrorists. PATRIOT even had sunset provisions.

Laws will never be abused by government.

Please discontinue your wrong thinking immediately.
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weneedhelp (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:54am

Re:
Was that supposed to support your alleged position that we are blowing this out of proportion?

Will S.978 Put You in Jail for Embedding Infringing Videos?
Despite the breadth of the public performance right, civil lawsuits against individuals alleged to have infringed it online are rare � Live Nation Motor Sports is the exception rather than the rule. The worry that S.978 will lead to prisons overflowing with people for sharing online videos that happen to be infringing is overblown.

The standard for establishing criminal copyright liability is much higher than civil liability.

Ill stop there. But it is apparent to any rational logical thinking human being that this new bill was crafted to assist in making it easier to bring these cases.

FAIL
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chuck, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:54am

But but...You Tube has a button that you can use to get the code to embed a video.
I guess that will go away, then whats the use of You tube if you can't share the wacky videos on there? so You Tube will also go away (or be used a LOT less)
I wonder what Google (You Tube) has to say about this?

Remember their names come election day folks.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:57am

Re:
It fails to dispel any of the worries. It basically shrugs off any of the concerns with sentences like "yes, it can be done, but it is rarely enforced". Some article...
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:59am

@Chuck

Unless there's a Techdirt ticket, I doubt that the future opponents of these Senators would vote differently. Where's Wyden on this?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:00am

I think that is boils down to the simple fact that you are upset that another one of the holes used by freeloaders and those who choose to ignore copyright is getting blocked up. I suspect that lawmakers were hoping in some ways that existing laws would be enough to give the courts appropriate frameworks to operate in, but failing that, they must craft new laws to address the new situation.

It truly sucks if you business depends on embedding copyrighted video clips from a third party, claiming to only be an innocent blog operator or website owner. It would get rid of the "didn't know, didn't check" excuse that has left so many offenders to build their businesses without risk and without having to actually pay for the content they use.

The wild west phase of the internet is quickly coming to an end, as the cowboys couldn't control themselves. The Sheriff is coming to do it for you.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:05am

Re:
"For a less alarmist view of things, I recommend reading: http://www.copyhype.com/2011/06/fears-of-felony-streaming-bill-overblown/"

Translation: I recommend that everyone just bend over.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:09am

Re:
I think that is boils down to the simple fact that you are upset that another one of the holes used by freeloaders and those who choose to ignore copyright is getting blocked up.

I think that is boils down to the simple fact that he is upset that another one of the holes used by free speakers and those who choose to practice it is getting blocked up.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:10am

Re: Re:
@AC:

There's an old saying, "You can't get fucked unless you assume the position".
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:16am

Re:
"The wild west phase of the internet is quickly coming to an end, as the cowboys couldn't control themselves. The Sheriff is coming to do it for you."

The freedom phase of the internet is quickly coming to an end, as those in power felt threatened by it. The movie and recording industry is coming to do it to you.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:17am

Re:
"The wild west phase of the internet is quickly coming to an end..."

I've been hearing about this for like 5 years now. Must be like when people say that "xxxx will be the year of linux on the Desktop", or "Browser Y version Z will be the ultimate browser that will kill off Firefox for good!". You know, one of those unlikely events that people are always saying will happen but never do.

But there's still hope for you: Duke Nukem Forever was eventually released. So dream on! Never give up!
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DH's Love Child (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:20am

Re:
I believe that was the entire purpose of this bill. It was a way for the RIAA/MPAA/Mafia to shut down YouTube, which they've been trying to do for a long time.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:22am

Use the crappy law(s) crappily
So the first time a high-profile figure breaks this soon-to-be-law, file criminal charges. Unfortunately it's probably the fastest way to fix things.
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martyburns (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:22am

Re: Re: Re:
..So I guess this will count as rape then?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:23am

Re: Re:
@AC

Seriously if you think these enforcement actions are so meaningless, what's with all of the drama?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:25am

Re: Re: Re:
Like I said, never give anyone more power than they need to get their job done, because it will be abused.
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Prisoner 201, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:26am

Re: Not intended, unless...
Just look at how UK used anti terrorist laws to freeze icelandic assets after the bank collapse.

Not because iceland is full of terrorist, no one even pretended that that was the case, but because the law allowed them to freeze icelandic assets.

That law was (of course) not intended to do that...
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Jay (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:27am

Re: Re: Re:
Maybe because it's ineffective, oppressive, and overall unconstitutional?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:27am

It'll be interesting to see how Google reacts to this.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:29am

Re: Re: Not intended, unless...
You part of NightWatch? How do I join? I could use the extra 50 credits per week.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:30am

Re: Re:
To be included under the bill: "the offense consists of 10 or more public performances by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copyrighted works; and the total retail value of the performances, or the total economic value of such public performances to the infringer or to the copyright owner, would exceed $2,500; or the total fair market value of licenses to offer performances of those works would exceed $5,000."

I don't see how the value of the public performance to a YouTube poster could be worth more than $2,5000, so that's not an issue. The other criteria is that the fair market value of the licenses for those performances must exceed $5,000. I don't know the value of licenses. Do you?

On top of that, for criminal infringement, there is a two-pronged mens rea element for "wilfulness" since it is a specific intent crime. The government must show: (1) intent to copy, and (2) intent to infringe.

Do you think a teen uploading a video of her lip-syncing to Lady Gaga meets this requirement? I don't.

Plus, consider the fact that it's already a misdemeanor. How many people have been charged with this? Exactly.

The fears are WAY overblown. Give me a break.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Also, these rules do not solve any problem: infringement will continue to occur at a massive scale and the true source of the problem will escape unscathed. The only one who will suffer will be those who, somewhat innocently (although not entirely), break these rules.

Think about it this way: you are trying to "win" the war on drugs by arresting every dirty junkie you find half dead on the streets, instead of grabbing the drug lords. For every junkie you arrest, they get 10 more addicted. You solved nothing and have to feed thousands more in your decaying prisons. Yay justice!
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:33am

Re: Re:
And how do you suppose the average YouTube uploader meets the two-pronged mens rea element? And why aren't people being arrested left and right if it's already a misdemeanor?
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Rekrul, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:35am

The real problem with this bill isn't that it will be used to jail people who embed YouTube videos or who lipsynch to some copyrighted. I agreed that such things would probably be pretty rare.

No, the real problem is that once passed, this law will be used to threaten all those people into taking down videos that should fall under fair use. People will start getting notices that say "Illegal streaming is a felony. Take down this video or you'll be arrested." Or even more likely, "Illegal streaming is a felony. Take down this video and pay us $2,000, or we'll have you arrested."

Also, the bill says that the value of the streamed works must cost more than $5,000 to license. Is there a single piece of music or video that you can actually get a license to stream for that little? Doesn't that make every any streamed, copyrighted content automatically qualify under the bill?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:36am

Re: Re:
We need more Wild West, not less.

If enforcing copyrights is so burdensome, and the laws that exist or are being suggested are so ultimately pointless, then loosening, curtailing, and shortening copyright is the way to unburden everyone.

More law is not better law.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:38am

Re: Re:
Translation: I recommend that everyone just bend over.

Um, no. I recommend people get their information from less biased sources, look at the text of the bill, consider the high mens rea that must be proved, and decide for themselves.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:39am

Re:
That's it? A single comment from an anonymous commenter is all you have to bolster your contention that supporters of the bill agree with your argument? At a minimum you should amend that sentence to begin "Even a single, anonymous commenter posting on Techdirt...."

But that's not the Techdirt way.
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Chris in Utah (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:40am

Carry over
In the last post somebody pointed out only willful infringement... for full description...

Shadow16nh, Jun 16th, 2011 @ 4:59pm

This article grossly misrepresents the implications of the proposed bill.

People who upload innocuous covers to YouTube and those who may link to them elsewhere will be absolutely unaffected by it.

Read the bill more carefully and you�ll see that the ��10 or more public performances�� stipulation is only applicable in conjunction with one or more of the subsequent provisions.

You fail to note that this law only applies to *intentional* infringements where the total retail value of the performances exceeds $2,500 and the total fair market value of licenses for such use must exceed $5,000.

Please check your facts more thoroughly in the future before allowing yourself to take an alarmist stance."

I'll stand by the alarmist every time when intentional infringes are anybody with a regular cam or web-cam, making public performance with music they bought & making a living doing so. The same can be said for any service or performance art that uses music.

It's bad enough Happy Birthday is copyrighted. And yet, only enforced in a public.. or I mean private restraunts. This bill effectively reaches in to a private home and says you cant work for yourself.

I was going for joking levity in a stressful time when I mentioned the cam-girls and yet your basically saying go strip elsewhere, we want a clean internet neighborhood. Boggles the mind.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:43am

Re: Re: Re:
"the offense consists of 10 or more public performances by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copyrighted works; and the total retail value of the performances, or the total economic value of such public performances to the infringer or to the copyright owner, would exceed $2,500; or the total fair market value of licenses to offer performances of those works would exceed $5,000"

Numbers can easily be manipulated. Remember, the AA's wanted 75 trillion dollars from Limewire, even though everyone and their dog can see that that is unreasonable.

"The government must show: (1) intent to copy, and (2) intent to infringe"

Not a problem for someone who would sue dead people and people without an Internet connection.

"plus, consider the fact that it's already a misdemeanor. How many people have been charged with this? Exactly."

If you had read the article you yourself linked, the reason pointed for this is that is little incentive to do it. The changes, supposedly, would provide more incentive to sue, ergo, more lawsuits, ergo, we are STILL concerned.

So, no, the article didn't help.
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DannyB (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:45am

Re: Re: Thats it.
The DMCA was written this way.

It is an industry buying custom written legislation. They write it and pay for it, congress rubber stamps it.
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DannyB (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:47am

Re: Re: Re: Not intended, unless...
Please stay calm and remain where you are. A government re-education technician will be along momentarily to assist you.

Hey, at least it's not President Clark's government. Yet.
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Hank Single, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:53am

Re: Re:
It's not about what likely 'will' be done - but what can be done. Every kid with a laptop is now a felon. This is how a police state functions - not that you arrest everyone, but that you can arrest anyone.

The major voice against the current tide of the government has been from the internet, this bill can be used to comfortably target anyone who is internet savvy. It's as though every road had a camera on it and going over the speed limit were a felony. If you have a car, you are now a felon if you being a felon suits the moment.
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:53am

Re: Re: Re:
I don't see how the value of the public performance to a YouTube poster could be worth more than $2,5000, so that's not an issue.

Did you intentionally ignore the "or to the copyright owner" part?

Say someone records a video of a concert and uploads it to Youtube. Tickets to the concert cost $50. 50 people watch it. Got a calculator handy? Mine tells me that's $2500.
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A Monkey with Atitude, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:53am

Re: Re: Re:
Frankly yes, the only way they get anything done is to hire the black hats to do it, then the black hats use the money to do other nasty things you don't even have a clue about....

LOL you think you can stop us? Really? we understand the web better than the corps. or the gov... we can route around and you will still be happy hugging yourself thinking you won, and guess what NOTHING changes...
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DMNTD, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:56am

Arguing...
Over a law is retarded. Make your points but going back and forth is seriously a waste of time. WATCH what happens then make a new post and again make your point.

BOTTOM LINE..laws have always been an abuse. They are non-sensible and as mike points out all the time NEW laws by this point are not needed! Its an abuse of power by this point but I am not going to argue with you..it just is, blow it out your ass.
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Abolutionist, 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:58am

Re: Re: Re:
"If enforcing copyrights is so burdensome, and the laws that exist or are being suggested are so ultimately pointless, then loosening, curtailing, and shortening copyright is the way to unburden everyone."

Abolish copyright.
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 9:58am

Re: Re: Re:
I recommend people get their information from less biased sources,

Oh, yes, lawyers and shills that are paid by the legacy content industries who have repeatedly ratcheted copyright law to absurd levels that were never intended are not biased.
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Bengie, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:01am

Don't worry
We won't prosecute you unless we want to. We'll just cherry pick the cases and more than likely, you won't get in trouble.

Move along, nothing to see here.
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A Monkey with Atitude, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:02am

Re: Carry over
No it doesn't, the "government" has always tried to legislate morality (drinking bans,gay bans, gambling, prostitutes) So now they are making the Internet a "HAPPY HAPPY FUN LAND OF SAFETY" and paying back their "friends" (the record labels) for more "donations"..... take the money out of their hands and bang so much for 60% of this stupid shit... until they try to build more "empires" of bureaucracy...
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Someantimalwareguy, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:02am

Re: Re: Re:
...look at the text of the bill,...

We did and our eyes are still bleeding so hang on...

...consider the high mens rea that must be proved...

High? Really? This coupled with the new "guilty by accusation" standards means it will actually be easier to not only threaten people, it will actually make it more likely that those accused would face potential felony charges even if it were later to be found that evrything they embeded turned out to be fair use...

...and decide for themselves

The jury took about 5 minutes of dilberation to come to the conclusion that this law is the product of Industry capture and not from a requirement to protect the people from the evils of potential copyright infringement.

Note: The 5 minutes was required to wipe the blood out of our eyes so we could see well enough to post a response...
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:05am

Re: Re: Re:
I don't see how the value of the public performance to a YouTube poster could be worth more than $2,5000, so that's not an issue. The other criteria is that the fair market value of the licenses for those performances must exceed $5,000. I don't know the value of licenses. Do you?

The courts usually accept the owner's asking price to be the value.

The fears are WAY overblown. Give me a break.

They are not and greed and evil don't deserve breaks.
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Jay (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:06am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Also, going for the "kings" creates a power vacuum that splinters the group, making the problem worse.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:08am

Re: Massive amounts of Both
If our government had a CTO they'd be a political appointee with no knowledge or experience.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:09am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Numbers can easily be manipulated. Remember, the AA's wanted 75 trillion dollars from Limewire, even though everyone and their dog can see that that is unreasonable.

Um, how do you manipulate the numbers? The value to the uploader is what the value is. When you upload a video to YouTube, how much money do you get? That's the issue.

Not a problem for someone who would sue dead people and people without an Internet connection.

You haven't addressed the issue. How do you prove that two-pronged mens rea element for a regular YouTube uploader? Saying it's "not a problem" is not an answer.

If you had read the article you yourself linked, the reason pointed for this is that is little incentive to do it. The changes, supposedly, would provide more incentive to sue, ergo, more lawsuits, ergo, we are STILL concerned.

So even though it's a misdemeanor and you can't point to anyone being arrested for uploading a YouTube video, you assume that once it's a felony, the feds will be chomping at the the bit to make arrests? That's not a convincing argument.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:10am

Re: Re: Re:
Um, no. I recommend people get their information from less biased sources, look at the text of the bill, consider the high mens rea that must be proved, and decide for themselves.

I did, and concluded that supporters of this bill want people to bend over.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:14am

Re: Arguing...
Over a law is retarded. Make your points but going back and forth is seriously a waste of time.

Right. Ignore the man behind the curtain. Ignore what the government is doing. Nothing to see here, citizen, move along!

/s
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Did you intentionally ignore the "or to the copyright owner" part?

You're right. I should have said that too.

Say someone records a video of a concert and uploads it to Youtube. Tickets to the concert cost $50. 50 people watch it. Got a calculator handy? Mine tells me that's $2500.

Why do you assume the value of a concert video on YouTube is the same as the value of a ticket to the concert? That makes no sense to me.
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Atkray (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:16am

Re: Thats it.
I am not going to read TD anymore on Fridays.

I've been getting that same feeling.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Why do you assume the value of a concert video on YouTube is the same as the value of a ticket to the concert? That makes no sense to me.

Copyright makes no sense to me.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
The courts usually accept the owner's asking price to be the value.

We're talking about the actual value of the performance. If I upload a song to YouTube of me singing a Black Eyed Peas song, what's the value of that?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, yes, lawyers and shills that are paid by the legacy content industries who have repeatedly ratcheted copyright law to absurd levels that were never intended are not biased.

Do you have any evidence that Terry Hart is "paid by the legacy content industries"? If not, I don't follow you.
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DMNTD, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:22am

Re: Re: Arguing...
So waste your time, keep arguing over a forum that won't change a damn thing. Its exactly this kind of venting that makes Americans so docile.

You go and soundboard to a bunch of ninnies instead of writing congress. Going outside getting up with what you feel is the right thing.

P>S> For sure your useless points on this forum will get the law out in the open. /s
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:22am

Re: Re: Re:
Every kid with a laptop is now a felon.

Exaggerate much?
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Atkray (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:23am

Re: Re: Re:
Because arresting people for misdemeanors is costly and inefficient. People are not scared of misdemeanor charges.

Once it is escalated to a felony expect to see several very high profile cases of "ordinary average citizens" arrested tried and imprisoned for 20+ years.

Not quite as effective as a guillotine in the town square, but close.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
We're talking about the actual value of the performance. If I upload a song to YouTube of me singing a Black Eyed Peas song, what's the value of that?

Whatever the copyright owner says it is.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:30am

Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
So waste your time, keep arguing over a forum that won't change a damn thing.

It called campaigning, and campaigning can make a difference.

You go and soundboard to a bunch of ninnies instead of writing congress.

Writing congress? Are you kidding? Now, that's a real joke! (Unless you send a lot of cash along with your letter.) I'd rather do something more effective, thank you. Something that I get the feeling that you're, for some reason, trying to discourage.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Then why bother making this legislation at all?!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
pjcamp (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:31am

RICO
Nobody intended RICO to be used against ordinary citizens either, but it is now the tool of choice in law enforcement. In many jurisdictions, confiscation of assets prior to trial is treated as just another form of taxes.
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Ken, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:37am

Fair Use accounts for 18% of the US Economy
A study conducted in 2010 shows that industries that rely on fair use account for 18% percent of the US economy dwarfing the publishing, movie, and music industries. This accounts for trillions of dollars and over 11 million jobs. Abolishing or even restricting fair use would cripple the economy and cost far more than any infringements ever could in magnitudes.

Over IP protectionism has the potential of devastating the entire US economy and with REAL losses not with theoretical phantom losses that the RIAA likes to claim.

http://www.ccianet.org/CCIA/files/ccLibraryFiles/Filename/000000000354/fair-use-study-fina l.pdf
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DMNTD, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
Its pointless, your not campaigning in a FORUM. You think this has subject matter? Go to your community point of contention ASK if they know a thing about PROTECT IP law passed? Then you will be campaigning.

Writing to congress is not working because...your not doing it...you can't claim how something does not work when your effectively proving this by NOT doing it.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:39am

You need to list all the names in that comission every time you write a story on a legislation like this one (even if you did it before). These people need to be called out on these bills, otherwise they won't care if nobody even knows they voted for this.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
Its pointless, your [sic] not campaigning in a FORUM.

Umm, yes, I am.

You think this has subject matter?

Yes. Next question.

Writing to congress is not working because...your not doing it...you can't claim how something does not work when your effectively proving this by NOT doing it.

Now you're just being plain dishonest. I don't know how you claim to know otherwise, but I have written to my congressional representative many times as a matter of principle. That's how I know how ineffective it is.
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The eejit (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:49am

Re: Re: Re:
They don't have to. The MPAA and rIAA will poiint this at a person, and either:

a) try and extort them; or
b) lock them up in Gitmo (an exxageration, but upto 5 years in jail and $150k/infringing work seems so fair.)

It doesn't have to be open to be abused. And I'm telling you NOW that this will be abused so hard it's not even funny anymore. I wish I could walk into the RIAA's office and casually snuff out its existence with a satellite laser.
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jackwagon (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
me too. received a canned response asking for campaign contributions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The eejit (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Not really. A person commits, on average, four counts of copyirght infringement a day.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Since when has any of the 'logic' the *AA's use been based on rational facts? They might even say that for each of those 10 views, there were 10 people watching, and therefore you owe for 100 tickets!
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The eejit (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It will become a felony crime. That is still in the current form of the bill.
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DMNTD, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
Just keep repeating yourself. Nothing works, sound-boarding to empty space is working. Just keep repeat everything I just said.

I get that man, if that works for you just keep repeating yourself. I gave real advice. I'm going to go actually do something. Remember..repeat yourself, otherwise its not true.
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The eejit (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:59am

Re:
"I think that is boils down to the simple fact that you are upset that another one of the holes used by freeloaders and those who choose to ignore copyright is getting blocked up."

So, what will hapopen to the next Dem or Repub who violates copyright on an ad campaign? Will they be arrested and tried?

Somehow, i think not. And before you say that that wouldn't happen, I refer you to John McCain's campaign of 2008.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:06am

Re:
For a less alarmist view of things, I recommend reading: http://www.copyhype.com/2011/06/fears-of-felony-streaming-bill-overblown/

... in which Terry Hart sets up a total strawman that no one has argued ("The worry that S.978 will lead to prisons overflowing with people for sharing online videos..."). No one made that argument. We were quite explicit that this won't lead to massive charges. Our problem is that it absolutely *could* be used to charge someone for such things, and nothing in Hart's analysis goes against that.

That's amazingly troubling. All the supporters of this bill seem to say "you're crazy!" and then eventually admit "well, sure it could be, but no one would do that."

It's astoundingly troublesome that people think it's okay to pass a bill that could very clearly be abused, and then just trust the system not to abuse it.
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Ken, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:15am

Re: Re:
To think the RIAA or MPAA will not use this law to scare people into submission is so naive it is pitiful.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:18am

Re: Re:
What about my points of the valuation of the performance being a hurdle, as well as the high mens rea? Can you address the thrust of my argument?
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ScytheNoire, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:19am

Quick and Easy Fix
Here's the quick and easy fix. Find people who are related to these politicians. Arrest them for violating these retarded laws that should have never been passed. Watch how quickly they get things to change.

Politicians never care about any one else unless it effects them. So make sure it effects them in a very real and negative way, like it does for the rest of society, and maybe these corrupt bastards will change their mind. Start tossing them and their families in jail.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Um, how do you manipulate the numbers? The value to the uploader is what the value is. When you upload a video to YouTube, how much money do you get? That's the issue.

It sounds like this is more of an issue for the lucky members who are YouTube partners. These are people who have become popular enough to have Google invite them into a revenue sharing arragement based on the number of hits their videos get. Being a hit on YouTube just became a whole lot riskier.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:29am

Re: Re: Re:
I don't see how the value of the public performance to a YouTube poster could be worth more than $2,5000, so that's not an issue.

Hmm. I would argue that very much depends on the situation, but given a video that gets lots of views, and has ads on it, sure, that argument would not be hard to make.

On top of that, for criminal infringement, there is a two-pronged mens rea element for "wilfulness" since it is a specific intent crime. The government must show: (1) intent to copy, and (2) intent to infringe.

Easy on both accounts. Intent to copy: they did the embed/lip synch or whatever. Clearly the intent was to copy. Intent to "infringe" again it depends on the situation, but again, it's not hard to make that argument. "Everyone knows that these works are copyrighted, and by embedding it on their site, which has Google ads, making it a commercial play, clearly they intended to infringe for their own commercial benefit..."

Not hard at all.

Do you think a teen uploading a video of her lip-syncing to Lady Gaga meets this requirement? I don't.

But what about the guy lipsynching to her video, embedded on his blog with Google ads, that gets hundreds of thousands of views?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:34am

Who cares about lip synching?
Lip synching is awful. Lip synchers are awful. I'd be happy if neither existed.
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Why do you assume the value of a concert video on YouTube is the same as the value of a ticket to the concert? That makes no sense to me.

I don't. But you can bet that copyright owners will, and then they'll go and add ripple effects and make 50 views @ $50 each somehow equal to tens of thousands in damages.

This entire bill doesn't make any sense to me. Neither does all of copyright law. If only laws had to make sense, we'd never need to worry about them.
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Ninja (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:38am

LoL srsly?! Won't be used against innocent embedded videos? After I've seen copywrong morons charging money out of a PRIVATE wedding because other ppl could hear the music from the outside?! Srsly?

Oh how I'd be ashamed if I were American.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
Just keep repeating yourself. Nothing works, sound-boarding to empty space is working.

For something so ineffective, you sure are spending a lot words preaching against it.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Of course they don't, because he doesn't.

This site has become a joke.

The articles are transparent hyperbole and fear mongering misrepresentations.

The comments here to intelligent observations by ACs read as if they were all written by a 12 year-old.

The bias and zealotry that was once latent, has exploded into full blown lunatic fringe behavior.

Mission accomplished.
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Alexander, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:45am

Last free place
The last free place on earth for people to express themselves was the cyberspace. Now cyberspace freedom has become a cyber-dream. You are not free. You were never free. You are a slave controlled and directed by the Big Brother. If you don't like it go F yourself. Because when the time comes for you to vote on who goes in the Senate you just crap your pants and vote for those who are advertised and supported by big money. Well you did it. Screw up life in any possible angle. Good for you moron who makes life miserable for more intelligent people. It is coming back at you and bite you in the ass and I hope you feel pretty good about it. Let Sony and GE rule your real world and your cyber-world altogether. Dreams are patented: NO MORE DREAMING YOU MF!
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:46am

Re: Quick and Easy Fix
Here's the quick and easy fix. Find people who are related to these politicians. Arrest them for violating these retarded laws that should have never been passed. Watch how quickly they get things to change.

That's why they avoid arresting such people. It's called "selective enforcement", and it's used to keep bad laws on the books.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
LOL
[ link to this | view in thread ]
McBeese, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:48am

Re:
Good link. Thx.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:50am

Re:
this law will be used to threaten all those people into taking down videos that should fall under fair use.

FUD.

Got an example?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chris in Utah (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:51am

Re: Who cares about lip synching?
Ever seen a cam girl? What say u then?
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anymouse (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:55am

Re:
From the linked Copyhype article, "Other factors support the idea that most internet users have no reason to worry about this bill."

Sounds an awful lot like, "If you've got nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about." .....

Except it's more like, "Most people have nothing to hide, so shouldn't worry about random mandatory police raids and searches of homes for potentially infringing material."

"What's infringing today?" ..... "We'll let you know as soon as we find it, we know it has to be here somewhere."

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"The comments here to intelligent observations by ACs read as if they were all written by a 12 year-old."

Nothing but a bunch of freetards.
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Ghost of a Former Slaver, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"LOL"

That's what we thought, too. Turned out that we didn't get the last laugh, tough.
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Ur mom, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:01pm

Why do we have people voting on bills that have no understanding of technology? It's insane what's going on in this govt
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ur mom, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:01pm

Why do we have people voting on bills that have no understanding of technology? It's insane what's going on in this govt
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chris in Utah (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:02pm

Re:
Fine policy. I second that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chris in Utah (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:07pm

Re: Re: Carry over
When I meant boggle I mean

ICANH
OPEFO
RSANI
YRIGT
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Chris in Utah (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Right, like states cant afford there own minds right?
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Chris in Utah (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
P.S. The problem isn't black and white as Jay puts it. Or rather its black and white on what Prohibition does and does not. Short memories that we have.
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Richard (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:14pm

Re: Re: Not intended, unless...
Not to mention arresting a pensioner for heckling at the Labour conference.....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I try to commit five counts of copyright infringement a day.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Why aren't they all in jail yet? Isn't being freetarded against the law?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:31pm

Re: Re:
How can anyone have an example when it hasn't been made law yet?

Let's see how law that's actually in effect fares - here's a search result page for 'dmca abuses':

http://www.google.com/search?q=dmca+abuses&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox& ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:39pm

Re: Not intended, unless...
"Unless, of course, such people happen to annoy the government or one of its corporate partners."

In other words, everyone under 30.
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ComputerAddict (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:43pm

Re: Re:
"Got an example?"

Got a Time Machine?

We can't pull an example showing the abuse of this law until after it passes... Or we could just cut the head off the bill right now and save us a whole bunch of time and money.
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Joe Publius (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:43pm

Re: Re:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110606/23312814574/oscar-nominated-filmmaker-misuses-dmca-to-take -down-video-reporter-asking-him-tough-questions.shtml

A DMCA Takedown because some guy decided to include a 26 second clip of a documentary in his critique of the documentary.

Now say you're some guy with a good lawyer who would find a way to prove monetary damages and mens rea, because for all the words the law provides, sometimes it does come down to has the best lawyer. Heck it doesn't even have to go to court if the letter is convincing enough.

If I were that guy, I'd think, "Why threaten someone with a club, when there's a bazooka handy?"
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lucidrenegade (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re:
How about you ACs grow a pair and register for an account? Oh wait, then everyone would be able to see you're nothing but a bunch of trolls.
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Mike Orr, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:49pm

Explanations are useless - only (not) voting/donating counts
We keep having these discussions - Congress enacts various laws at the RIAA/MPAA behest, and we tryu and debate the issue as if logically showing the law is bad/stupid/ineffective/unconstitutional/etc is useful. it isn't.

Our only effective tool is that while RIAA/MPAA etc, can (and do) provide money to politicians to helpo them campaing for (re)election, they can't actually get them (re)elected. They need us - but only our votes and donations.

So - if we want this stopped, we need to make politicians aware of the price for actions on behalf of "industry". send them, and copy their party, and email saying basically "if you keep this up, I will not cote for you and your party, will not donate to you or your party, and will tell my family and friends to do the same".
If the RNC or DNRC and the offices of the relevant politicians get enough of these, they'lll stop.
Otherwise - why would they not keep doing it?
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Mike Orr, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:50pm

Apologies for Typos - my dyslexia is shoing up ...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ATM, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:51pm

Re: Re: Re:
"I don't see how the value of the public performance to a YouTube poster could be worth more than $2,5000"

When you are dealing with an industry that claims 6 figure losses for uploading 30 songs, nothing is impossible

"Do you think a teen uploading a video of her lip-syncing to Lady Gaga meets this requirement?"

By the time this question is answered in court this teen would have been arrested, sent to jail, paid tens of thousands of dollars in bail and legal fees. not to mention the psychological stress.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:56pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
Perhaps your Congressman doesn't agree with your point of view. It happens, you know.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:59pm

Re: Last free place
wow someone is angry and bitter. Perhaps you just need a stool softener or something.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The eejit (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 12:59pm

Re: Re: Re:
mens rea can be argued thus:

.By virtue of posting the video online, you are infringing already;
.Ads are shown that generate revenue for Youtube and/or the postee;
.In each case, there is a profit to be made.
.Seeing as the RIAA can manage to make a multiplatinum-selling album a loss-leader, it can asdjust the numbers to show that this made more of a profit.

If you cannot see that, then I think you need a refund on your Law degree tuition fees.
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The eejit (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 1:00pm

Re: Re: Re:
No, they did. Then when Karl ripped apart their arguments, they AC'ed back up.
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Jay (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 1:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I wasn't intending to put the problem as a black and white issue. Pragmatically speaking:

But if you go for the "street-level" offenders (as the analogy goes, the filesharers), you still haven't gotten the supply to go down.

Go for the mid level offenders (admins and third parties), and you haven't stopped the ones in charge.

Go for the kings (ISPs, etc) and they're usually insulated and not even close to touchable for liability. Then you have new kings step up to consume the vacuum.

No matter which level you go for, it's going to take more money than intended and it will be an expensive battle regardless.
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The eejit (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 1:04pm

Re: Explanations are useless - only (not) voting/donating counts
ACtually, a better plan would be to pirate everything. Buy cheap knockoffs, imported from China, download anything you'd like to watch, hack your cableboxes, do anything in your power to avoid paying these rat-faced pustules on society for anything.

They cannot lobby if no-one actually pays them for goods.
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john devoy, 17 Jun 2011 @ 1:20pm

given todays politicians, id go with incompetance AND corruption.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
RadialSkid (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 1:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
intelligent observations by ACs

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 1:49pm

Re: Re: Explanations are useless - only (not) voting/donating counts
Then they'll just sue you and garnish all your wages, and if their lobbyists have their way they'll soon be able to trow you in jail too. Not a very effective strategy...
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 1:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yawn.

I have no direct evidence. But the content industries have no evidence that copyright is required to promote the progress or the creation of new works, nor that this bill will do anything to slow down copyright infringement.

RIAA, MPAA, and BSA "studies" are transparent hyperbole and fear mongering misrepresentations.

The comments here to intelligent observations by ACs read as if they were all written by a 12 year-old.

The wording on this statement is ambiguous. If you mean that the comments made by many Anonymous Cowards read like they were written by pre-pubescent children, I'll agree with you. Notice I'm not an Anonymous Coward. I'm not afraid to give my name and who I represent (no one but myself). I'm clear that I know my position on copyright is not mainstream, and I'm perfectly OK with that. If you want to call me a lunatic, go for it. I feel more like the little kid saying that the emperor is naked.

Judging all of TechDirt by what a few commenters like myself post is either a clear sign that you're afraid Mike is making an impact, that you can't refute his points, or that you are playing some kind of political or PR game and trying to make him look bad by what I say. I could care less about those kind of games - I care about reality. And I think Mike cares enough for free speech that he won't censor me, even if short-sighted people somehow think we're linked (we're not, as I've had maybe 2 or 3 indirect interactions with him in the years I've been reading).

Well, enough of this pissing match. Back to work for me.
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ArkieGuy (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 2:38pm

Consider the source...
Two of my favorite quotes work here:

Arthur C. Clarke said "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Robert Hanlon (I think) said "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Put them together and you get my opinion of the Senate Judiciary Committee: "if it's more advanced than a pencil, it's probably magic and I can't understand it so it should be eliminated." :)
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 3:13pm

Re: Re: Who cares about lip synching?
I am talking about how ridiculous and useless lip synching is. What are you talking about?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 3:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"I could walk into the RIAA's office and casually snuff out its existence with a satellite laser."

yeah, kind of self defeating isn't it... you in the building, firing a satellite laser at your location.

Score +1 for rational thinking. /s
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Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 3:22pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
and I can name that song in three notes!!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 3:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"If I upload a song to YouTube of me singing a Black Eyed Peas song, what's the value of that?"

Actually if you have a million people viewing your YouTube video, ASCAP can come after you. The price per stream is really high, ask any internet radio station.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 3:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
First, they came for the freetards...

...but I didn't speak out because I'm not a freetard.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 3:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Mike hope you are feeling better ...

You missed an important piece, Cover songs. If you sing happy birthday and a million people watch it on you tube, you are now a felon. The ASCAP types can come after you also if I read the law correctly.
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Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 3:48pm

Re: Re:
It is interesting that RIAA/MPAA/etc do not realize that they are whacking a hornets nest of companies, whose net worth is about 1,500 times the net worth of the companies they represent. Really stupid if you ask me.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It will be an expensive battle at the taxpayers expense. Using your drug analogy you can't change genetic or human nature. The statue of anne was a law that was put in place in 1709. It is a law that goes against human nature. People share information, people talk, people sing, people share experience. The statue of anne and all copyright laws after violate this basic human drive.

The laws being passed recently in reguards to IP are alot like passing laws that say it is illegal to eat, drink, have sex, sing, quote history, and sleep.
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Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
You forgot to mention there are 7 billion of us and 1 million of them.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:15pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
My reply would be simply that if someone is intentionally infringing and it meets the other requirements, then why's it so bad that it's a felony? The person has criminal intent, right? Why not treat them like a criminal? It's a misdemeanor already, so I don't see the big deal.

I admit I hadn't considered the embedding a video on a site other than YouTube. That's a good point.

(See, it's easy to admit when you've made a good point.)
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A Guy, 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:25pm

Maybe, if the bill is broken enough, they assume that a Senator will put a hold on it. That way, the Senators can look like they tried to appease their campaign contributors and nothing deleterious to free speech and free expression happened. However, I fear I may be giving them too much credit.
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Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
"Its pointless, your not campaigning in a FORUM."

Okay, I am laughing really hard at this point. I actually spilled my tea. Well actually alot of people have campaigned online. It has actually worked and worked well. It is one of the resons we are in this shitty situation. You see, the current president of the united states took the election by having a huge presence online.

Simple words in a blog do have meaning. They educate people to what is going on. They fill in the blanks that the big news outlets gloss over. They put people like you in their place.
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Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:31pm

Re: Re:
Thirded .... and again you must include phone and email addresses of the politicians.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:33pm

Re: Re: Quick and Easy Fix
Would a citizens arrest work on a congress (man/woman)?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:33pm

Re: Re: Quick and Easy Fix
Also can you walk into a grand jury and file a complaint as a private citizen?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hephaestus (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:34pm

Re: Re: Quick and Easy Fix
Hmmm ..... I have the beginnings of a plan :)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 4:54pm

Re:
Sadly, further points made later in that thread are not mentioned. Virtually anything known to man, including laws, can be used in an abusive manner. Of course anything is possible, even if that possibility is about 10 sigma from the norm.

An important point that was overlooked relates to the fact that courts serve as a check on legislative power. Moreover, courts have over the last several hundred years developed rules, doctrines, policies, etc. that are used by them in matters of statutory interpretation. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that the absolute worst will befall us merely because something "could" happen.

Apparently I place far greater faith in our judicial system than many of those who decry the proposed bill.
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Miles Maker, 17 Jun 2011 @ 5:02pm

Not THOSE streamers!
You're blowing this out of context.
It's the uploading 'streamers' NOT those who share the link!

Doh! Lol!!
smh
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 5:02pm

Re: Re: Re:
IIRC the mens rea elements are "subjective", and not "objective". In other words, the mere act of doing something that objectively infringes a copyright is not enough.
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BeeAitch (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 7:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Um, how do you manipulate the numbers? The value to the uploader is what the value is. When you upload a video to YouTube, how much money do you get? That's the issue."

You forgot to add all the money that the copyright owners lost WHEN YOU STOLE FROM THEM. THAT MONEY IS VALUE, DAMMIT!

Sound ridiculous? Said owners claimed Limewire owed them $75 million. Seems pretty easy to claim more than $5000 lost.

"You haven't addressed the issue. How do you prove that two-pronged mens rea element for a regular YouTube uploader? Saying it's "not a problem" is not an answer."

If you think the feds can't ignore the law or make it up as they go, you haven't been paying attention. ICE seizures anyone? If they can seize domains without due process, they can provide mens rea easily enough (or skip it, take your choice).

"So even though it's a misdemeanor and you can't point to anyone being arrested for uploading a YouTube video, you assume that once it's a felony, the feds will be chomping at the the bit to make arrests? That's not a convincing argument."

The feds are already chomping at the bit to get arrests. This won't increase their fervor any. The only difference is that IT IS NOW A FELONY. Why? (I'll give you a hint: felons don't share all the rights of regular citizens.)
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BeeAitch (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 7:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
A felony is one of three strikes. A convicted felon cannot vote, is restricted from many jobs, etc. There are plenty of reasons why this shouldn't go from a misdemeanor to a felony.
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Rekrul, 17 Jun 2011 @ 7:45pm

Re: Explanations are useless - only (not) voting/donating counts
Our only effective tool is that while RIAA/MPAA etc, can (and do) provide money to politicians to helpo them campaing for (re)election, they can't actually get them (re)elected.

No, but they can buy the next politician that does get elected. And the cycle continues...
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Rekrul, 17 Jun 2011 @ 7:56pm

Re: Carry over
You fail to note that this law only applies to *intentional* infringements where the total retail value of the performances exceeds $2,500 and the total fair market value of licenses for such use must exceed $5,000.

You inserted the word "and" where you should have used "or";

...where the total retail value of the performances exceeds $2,500 or the total fair market value of licenses for such use must exceed $5,000

Show me even a single copyrighted work where the license to stream it is less than $5,000.

That's like saying that a cable company will only prosecute unauthorized people tapping into their service if the cost to pay for that same service exceeds $10.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2011 @ 7:56pm

Re: Re:
Illuminati
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BeeAitch (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 7:58pm

Re: Use the crappy law(s) crappily
Silly AC, laws are for proles. ;)
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BeeAitch (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
"...but I am not going to argue with you.."

Should've stuck with that statement.
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DataShade (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 8:42pm

How do you explain that other than incompetence or corruption?

Unless you define those two words quite broadly, neither. It's the unholy trifecta of ignorance ("The internet is a series of tubes"), arrogance, and contempt (I maintain it's not enough that legacy industry lobbyists are donating a lot of money; the human psyche rejects self-identifying as evil, so even if they're voting in line with what their corporate donors want, they've made a justification for it, and that justification is almost always "they don't know what's best for them").
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AnonymousButNotHim, 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:22pm

Felony
The whole show is given away by the sheer audacity and gall of equating LOST REVENUE for some media company with a FELONY.

Any argument or reasoning after that is just beside the point. A fscking felony. Right, yeah, because it's a danger to life and limb. Yeah because that's really justified.

Sorry, will not listen to any smoke, mirrors, weasels, wordsmiths or jujumen who can get behind such a travesty.
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Fairportfan (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 10:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The value to the uploader is what the value is.

Um, no.

The value is what the copyright owner loses because people get their content without paying them for it.

And the courts tend to believe the copyright owner - at least provisionally, subject to rebuttal ... which is difficult if not impossible for the average citizen.
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techflaws.org (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares about lip synching?
D'uh, that your distaste for lip synching videos has no bearing on the matter whatsoever.
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techflaws.org (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So what of this intent is actually criminal?
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Fairportfan (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:47pm

Anything that They say is
Nothing, if you just consider motives.

Everything, if you consider how the law is written.
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Fairportfan (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Conversely, the mere act of doing something the guys with the money disapprove of is.
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Fairportfan (profile), 17 Jun 2011 @ 11:54pm

Anything that can...
Rule 34 says "If it exists, there is porn for it."

Rule MW1 says "If a law can be abused, it will be."
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iveseenitall, 18 Jun 2011 @ 1:51am

The real problem with the bill is that it's driven purely by special interests.
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Jay (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 1:55am

Re: Re:
"Got an example?"

Go to chillingeffects.com Look at ALLL the DMCA takedowns that were used to chill free speech.

Imagine that done with domains.
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Jay (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 1:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
Mine is a sponsor for this damned bill...

And he DOES NOT answer you.
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Chargone (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 4:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
'up to' rather than 'into' i think. :)

rational thinking? we needs it not. correct grammar counts for a lot :D

(punctuation, on the other hand, is silly.)
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Chargone (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 4:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
yes, i did notice the irony. or whatever that thing i did there is. :D
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2011 @ 4:58am

Challenge Lets find a guilty Representative under this proposed law.
OK I bet we can find at least half a dozen infringers of this law who are our elected representatives.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2011 @ 5:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
So Masnick, if this is such an evil bill; why aren't mainstream apologists like CDT, EFF and PK all over it? I see nothing on their websites and looking at the bill's webpage I note that these organizations haven't even come out to oppose it on the record. For that matter, for all of the sniveling you do, it doesn't appear that Techdirt ever bothers making its opposition part of the record. At a certain level all of the rantings look foolish without any willingness to back shit up.
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Jeni (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 6:05am

Re: Re:
That link is down.
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Jeni (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 6:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I just learned about "Happy Birthday" being "protected" from my niece a few weeks ago - she teaches autistic children. They had a BD party for one of the children at a restaurant and were told they couldn't sing "THAT" song lest they be guilty of "copyright infringement".

So make sure all the windows are closed and you sing Happy Birthday very, VERY softly at any family birthday gatherings lest "THEY" hear you ... and be sure that camcorder is off so no one can share your family singing "Happy Birthday" on the everyone-is-a-felon-Inet.

Stop the world. I want to get off.
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Jeni (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 6:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What a headache-inducing load of crappy crap crap. *rolleyes*
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Jeni (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 6:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
"Writing to congress is not working because...your not doing it...you can't claim how something does not work when your effectively proving this by NOT doing it."

Um...they do not listen and they do not give on damn about anything a peon has to say. Some staffer reads your letter and if it gets acknowledged at all, it's with some stupid form letter some hack wrote up to make it look like your Rep. actually got your letter/email. Learn it, live it love it.

And get out and vote the bastards out of office.
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Jeni (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 6:37am

Re: Re: Explanations are useless - only (not) voting/donating counts
Love that plan, eeijt. Will do what I can. ;)
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Jeni (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 6:41am

Re: Re: Re: Explanations are useless - only (not) voting/donating counts
"They cannot lobby if no-one actually pays them for goods."

That's my choice.

You cannot be sued simply because you've stopped purchasing a certain product. I will not purchase a DVD with a movie or TV series (and I've purchased a TON in my day) again. Done. Over.

How can that be a reason to garnish my wages? Besides, taxes have already done that... Now they'll want to rob me for NOT buying??? Where does the infringement on civil rights end?
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Jay (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 7:38am

Re: Re: Re: Quick and Easy Fix
Small note:

Congress is insulated from the bills they make.

It's right there in the Constitution.

But when they are private citizens...
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2011 @ 9:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Hey! Why don't you go and ask them and then report back to us, 'kay?

*waits on tenterhooks...tenterhooks!*
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raycote, 18 Jun 2011 @ 10:23am

Re:
Thanks for linking to the spin doctors!

And the looting of the economy by the banks is just hype to, according to the banker's PR bagmen.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2011 @ 10:36am

Re: Re: Re:
How about you ACs grow a pair and register for an account? Oh wait, then everyone would be able to see you're nothing but a bunch of trolls.

It always amuses me when some anonymous commenter attempts to call out another anonymous commenter for being anonymous. What a hypocrite.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2011 @ 10:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguing...
Perhaps your Congressman doesn't agree with your point of view. It happens, you know.

Particularly if you didn't put a lot of money in the envelope along with your letter.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2011 @ 10:45am

Re: Re: Re:
"How about you ACs grow a pair and register for an account? Oh wait, then everyone would be able to see you're nothing but a bunch of trolls."

Or do like lucidrenegade and register multiple accounts so that you cam pretend to be multiple people!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2011 @ 10:48am

Re: Re:
Virtually anything known to man, including laws, can be used in an abusive manner.

Well, this bill certainly seems to prove that.
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Gene Cavanaugh (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 12:22pm

Incompetence or corruption?
If it is incompetence, it seems to happen only when the people who bought them want something.
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xenomancer (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 4:34pm

Re: Arguing...
EVERYONE PLEASE STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!!!!
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nasch (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 9:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
We're talking about the actual value of the performance.

Oh, the actual value! You mean the government and the copyright holders are going to stop making stuff up like they always, always do? Gosh, I guess we really don't have anything to worry about!
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nasch (profile), 18 Jun 2011 @ 10:05pm

Re:
It's the unholy trifecta of ignorance ("The internet is a series of tubes")

Thus, incompetence. One cannot be competent in an area one is ignorant of.

the human psyche rejects self-identifying as evil, so even if they're voting in line with what their corporate donors want, they've made a justification for it

That's still corruption.
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The eejit (profile), 19 Jun 2011 @ 1:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Eh, My life is valueless, I'd be adding Z to the world with that oen action. :D
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The eejit (profile), 19 Jun 2011 @ 1:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I yell at my reps each and every week. I get a stock letter asking for 'contributions' back each week, like clockwork.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jun 2011 @ 6:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Jay, for the moment nobody is clear that the kings are doing anything illegal. That makes it hard for the midlevel and street people to feel they are guilty of anything, so they keep doing what they doing because it all seems easy and nobody is getting charged.

The intent of this law (and a few others in the works) is to shore up the system, and make a change in the way the public perceives the product. They are shifting the risk / reward benefits of sharing in various fashions to being higher risk, something fewer people will naturally take.

This is just another way to make clear in legal terms what is and what is not acceptable, and making it easier to move forward with prosecutions or civil cases knowing that there is clearer law on the subject.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jun 2011 @ 8:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And it still won't do a damn thing except waste my tax dollars.
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Chris in Utah (profile), 19 Jun 2011 @ 10:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
That or act(s) of civil disobedience to said kings ends up in a declaration of independence. Laws be damned, a great man once said, "You can not have a democracy without civil disobedience."
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Chris in Utah (profile), 19 Jun 2011 @ 11:12am

Re: Re: Re: Quick and Easy Fix
Why do I picture with a handlebar mustache twirling the tips into a spiral by thought alone, turning red and growing horns.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jun 2011 @ 3:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If you sing happy birthday and a million people watch it on you tube, you are now a felon.

Do you think people who upload video of them singing "Happy Birthday" intend to commit a crime by doing so? There is that intent element that must be proved.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jun 2011 @ 3:18pm

"Read the text of the bill"

...unlike any of the senators who actually signed it!
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Chris in Utah (profile), 19 Jun 2011 @ 3:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I think some copyright infringes might beg to differ.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Jun 2011 @ 3:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
IIRC the mens rea elements are "subjective", and not "objective". In other words, the mere act of doing something that objectively infringes a copyright is not enough.

That's right. The test is not whether the belief is objectively reasonable. The test is whether the defendant really believes the law does not proscribe his conduct. See United States v. Moran, 757 F. Supp. 1046 (D.Neb. 1991).
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Saygin(?), 19 Jun 2011 @ 6:34pm

Not corruption or incompetence
Mike,

It's neither corruption or incompetence; it's a lack of an organized & interested constituency. Youtube (and its clones) are at no greater risk than they previously were; the cable and satellite industry have a protection; and the ISPs have the Safe Harbor to protect them. Even Lessig knows that if Congress passes this, the Supreme Court won't overturn it.

It's not corruption, it's just that not everyone can see unintended consequences so clearly.
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Chris in Utah (profile), 19 Jun 2011 @ 8:34pm

Re: Not corruption or incompetence
Here's a thought. They are after all senators and part of there duty is to uphold the constitution. Yet, in the course of there duties they are to listen to there constituents in there respective states and vote accordingly. Furthermore to actually read the bill they are voting on for said constituents. Conclusion is how the hell is in the best interest of the People.

Not corruption? I'd buy sea side property here in Utah on that. Incompetence you can draw your own conclusion on your respective representatives. So the problem may be neither corruption or incompetence and in one word in your conclusion, the blind. Will-full ignorance on the part of the electorate that is supposed to covering our asses is a dam sure fire way to burn the country around you as well.
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nasch (profile), 19 Jun 2011 @ 9:36pm

Re: Not corruption or incompetence
It's not corruption, it's just that not everyone can see unintended consequences so clearly.

Wouldn't that be incompetence, then?
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SubGenius, 20 Jun 2011 @ 1:21am

It is not unintended, nor incompetence. It is deliberate. The system is feeling threatened and doing everything it can to suppress the internet, the freedom of speech and the free flow of information.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2011 @ 3:09am

Re: Re: Re:
Must be fun to live in a fairy tale world where random outliers somehow negate what is everyday reality...

I bet you believe in the Easter Bunny too.
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lucidrenegade (profile), 20 Jun 2011 @ 5:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Guess you missed the fact that I actually have an account.
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lucidrenegade (profile), 20 Jun 2011 @ 5:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
This is the only account I've ever had, and I've never posted as an AC. Try again.
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Easter Bunny, 20 Jun 2011 @ 10:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
O hai, i'm in ur interwebz eatin' ur bizness model, lulz.
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Hephaestus (profile), 20 Jun 2011 @ 10:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I wonder if marilyn monroe got permission when she sang happy birthday to the president.
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Hephaestus (profile), 20 Jun 2011 @ 10:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"A felony is one of three strikes. A convicted felon cannot vote, is restricted from many jobs, etc."

I finally figured it out. The democrats are going to selectively enforce this against any republican. If you can't vote you can't vote for the other side. ;)
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Hephaestus (profile), 20 Jun 2011 @ 10:38pm

Re: Re: Re:
Yes but thats what they have been trying to do all along. It hasn't worked ... if we could only have a death penalty for infringement that would stop piracy.
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florence gillette, 25 Jun 2011 @ 8:01pm

What you are all failing to realize is that this is a very simple anti-theft law. If you publish yourself lipsyncing to someone else's music, etc., you are a thief. The same goes for embedding their videos without the proper permissions and fees. Your only right is to see what has been properly posted, not to alter it or embed it as if it belonged to you, etc. The only flaws in the law is prosecuting people for viewing that which has been improperly posted. The only truly guilty party here is the up-loader. The laws now are being set to prosecute the viewer, as if he had sneaked into a theater (which is theft). If these laws are enforced as written, the only way to truly be safe, is to avoid all the sharing sites, including you tube.
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nasch (profile), 25 Jun 2011 @ 11:24pm

Re:
What you are all failing to realize is that this is a very simple anti-theft law.

I have a sinking feeling that you're actually serious.
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Jeni (profile), 26 Jun 2011 @ 5:03am

Re:
"If you publish yourself lipsyncing to someone else's music, etc., you are a thief. "

OMG. Having fun! It's criminal!

Seems to me that's flattering to whomever the songwriter/singer is/was. And now it's a crime to enjoy it and share it - along with a few grins and giggles. Nice... (sarc)
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Joe Schmoe, 19 Oct 2011 @ 10:10pm

Just trust us...
There are so many cases where a law wasn't "intended" to prosecute a all-time person, but somehow they found themselves out of favor and now a prosecutor "really wants" to find something to charge them with. If this bill passes, we will all trulybe felons just waiting for a prosecutor.

Look up "Three Felonies a Day."

The argument, "Don't worry, there are too many of us for them to prosecute us all." Would you feel okay if you knew there was a murderer shooting people at random in your city, because "Hey, what are the chances?"

We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system.
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