NYTimes Sues The Federal Government For Refusing To Reveal Its Secret Interpretation Of The PATRIOT Act
from the secret-laws-and-secret-interpretations dept
We've been covering for a while now how Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall have been very concerned over the secret interpretation the feds have of one piece of the PATRIOT Act. They've been trying to pressure the government into publicly explaining how they interpret the law, because they believe that it directly contrasts how most of the public (and many elected officials) believe the feds are interpreting the law. While the two Senators continue to put pressure on the feds and to hint at the feds' interpretation, just the fact that the government won't even explain its own interpretation of the law seems ridiculous.Given all of this, reporter Charlie Savage of the NY Times filed a Freedom of Information Act request to find out the federal government's interpretation of its own law... and had it refused. According to the federal government, its own interpretation of the law is classified. What sort of democracy are we living in when the government can refuse to even say how it's interpreting its own law? That's not democracy at all.
Julian Sanchez points us to the news that Savage and the NY Times have now sued the federal government for not revealing its interpretation of the PATRIOT Act, pointing out that if parts of the interpretation contain classified material, the Justice Department should black that out and reveal the rest, but simply refusing to reveal the interpretation entirely is a violation of the Freedom of Information Act. You can bet that the feds will do everything they can to get out of this lawsuit, just as they did with the various lawsuits concerning warrantless wiretapping. Here's hoping the court systems don't let them. No matter what you think of this administration (or the last one) and how it's handling the threat of terrorism, I'm curious how anyone can make the argument that the US government should not reveal how it interprets the very laws under which it's required to operate.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: charlie savage, doj, extension, freedom of information, mark udall, oversight, patriot act, ron wyden, secret interpretation, wiretaps
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
Huh
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Huh
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Huh
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
Holy shit, Batman!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
And no, William Shatner wasn't involved in any way. The film adapation starred Gregory Peck as Finch.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:patriot act
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: hidden interpretations of other laws?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
will the government start having hidden interpretations of other laws now?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
A but there is another point...
As we dont know what level of classification that implies, It could mean that even knowing the law could be against the law for some people.
I look forward to them arguing about *that* in court.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: A but there is another point...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Consttutional issue
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Consttutional issue
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Consttutional issue
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I'm curious how anyone can make the argument that the US government should not reveal how it interprets the very laws under which it's required to operate.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
This is really good news
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
In a nation where the government serves The People, what does it say about the government that it regards those People as the enemy that secrets must be kept from?
Does that make the federal government the much sworn about but rarely seen domestic enemy of the Constitution?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
iTS ALL CHANGED
I still find it fun that the laws for the poor, have no cognizance from those above. I was raised that ALL WAS EQUAL. and as an adult, I learned differently.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Lots of non-sequitors and hyberbole, and maybe a a spotlight and gamblers fallacy for good measure. I will be back to show you in a bit.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
SHIT, LET ME OUT OF HERE!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Everyone sign in as "out_of_the_blue"!
By the way, if came to it, I've a rare if not unique browser header, always give the same email address, and so on. Only one who can spoof me is Mike, or someone he informs.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Everyone sign in as "out_of_the_blue"!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Everyone sign in as "out_of_the_blue"!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Everyone sign in as "out_of_the_blue"!
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
What Gives
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What Gives
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: What Gives
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Congress: just repeal ...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Congress: just repeal ...
Congress has.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Congress: just repeal ...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Congress: just repeal ...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 3
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Great Interest.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Is there a lawyer in the house?
So seriously- I'm curious how the feds rationalize the legality of a 'secret law'. The very concept seems so completely at odds with a representative government that I'm at a loss to speculate even a laughable argument, much less something with that might make some kind of sense.
Can someone help with this?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Is there a lawyer in the house?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Not that it matters, but...
Just think what that secret interpretation must look like to pass that threshold...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
If I needed a reason to subscribe to the times
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
LAND OF THE FREE?
WHOEVER TOLD YOU THAT IS YOUR ENEMY! (ratm)
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
We don't live in a democracy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: We don't live in a democracy
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
nyt sues fed
A law is not and cannot be valid if it contravenes a higher law. ie a contract law is not valid law if it contravenes a criminal law. And a criminal law cannot be valid law if it contravenes a Natural law.
The usually given example of this is a law that cannot possibly be conformed to.
If a government has an interpretation of a law yet refuses to give that interpretation to its citizens then that law is, by that fact alone, invalid as it cannot possibly be conformed to.
This is a straight-forward no-brainer. Unfortunately you (We) have a government that has no regard for law at all – At All! Except as a vehicle to achieve its aims or avoid sanction, whenever and wherever it suits.
It wages undeclared war, yet uses the invalid excuse of 'rules of war' to murder its own citizens without due process, kills civilians to achieve its goals as a matter of course, invents the non-existent label of 'illegal combatant' to more easily enable torture of whomever it wants - with or without reason let alone due process, and corruptly pillages the people and the nation and the world for its own benefit and the benefit of those who remain in the shadows and actually pull its strings. And on and on and on ....
"It's a Republic Madam. If you can keep it".
Well obviously you (We) couldn't. Your (Our) choices are now either submission, or Lawful Rebellion. And I'll remind you that in law not making a choice is a choice. It's acceptance, or submission.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: nyt sues fed
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
NYT Ignores Pleas from Victims of USG Extrajudicial Persecution
http://nowpublic.com/world/u-s-silently-tortures-americans-cell-tower-microwave-weapon
http ://nowpublic.com/world/thugocracy-u-s-fed-police-vigilantes-persecute-citizen-targets
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
democracy, republics, and juries
If it's freedom we desire, we have to get back to what the Founding Fathers really wanted: a republic. A republic is a country where the leaders are held accountable by the citizenry. The only institution in the American system of government designed to do that was the citizen jury, which has the inherent right to judge both the law and the facts of a case. Since 1894, juries have been systematically misled on this issue, told nowadays they must apply the law as given by the court, like it or not.
The Founding Fathers would turn over in their graves if they heard such a perversion of their intent. They knew that any form of government, unless the laws it passed were subject to citizen review and rejection, would ultimately become tyrannical. As Thomas Jefferson put it, "I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet devised by man by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution."
Up until 1894, judges would routinely tell jurors of their power and duty to judge both law and fact. But the decision in Sparf and Hansen, 1894, was that yes, jurors always do have this power, but the court has no obligation to tell them about it. Since then, the political function of the jury has been lost to us, and with it the possibility of reviving citizen control of government.
When Benjamin Franklin was asked by a woman, just after the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, what sort of government the new nation was to have, he said, "A republic, madam--if you can keep it."
We've lost it, and the atrocity known as the Patriot Act, its publicly available and secret elements alike, is proof positive.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: nyt sues fed
from the Declaration of Independence
these words tell us everything we need to do.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The Patriot Act
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
FOIA Refused
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]